The Untold Workplace Revolution: W. Brad Johnson and David Smith on Gender Fairness as Business Imperative

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Step into the world of success with Your Brand Amplified, the ultimate podcast designed to unravel the intricacies of thriving businesses. I'm your host, Anika Jackson, and I'm on a mission to uncover the stories, strategies, and secrets that have propelled entrepreneurs entrepreneurs and business leaders to success. Today's guests are two people whose careers took a fascinating turn from the flight deck in the Naval Hospital to the halls of Johns Hopkins and the US Naval Academy. And now the front lines of one of the most important conversations happening in business right now. I'm really pleased to have Dr. W. Brad Johnson, a clinical psychologist, formal Navy officer, professor of leadership at the US Naval Academy. And the author of 14 books, and Dr. David G. Smith, a sociologist, former Navy pilot who flew combat missions in Iraq and Afghanistan, and a professor and co-director of the Gender and Work Initiative at Johns Hopkins Carey Business School. Together, they've spent years studying what actually makes workplaces work for everyone. Their previous books, Athena Rising and Good Guys, challenged men to step up as mentors and allies for women in the workplace. But your new book, doctors, goes even further. Fair Share: How Men and Women Can Create a More Equitable Workplace Together, which is out this month, makes the case that traditional workplace model is broken, not just for women and not just for men. And the fixing isn't just about running another DEI program. It's about leadership, organizational design, and culture that actually attracts and keeps great people. Brad, David, thank you for being here and welcome to Your Brand Amplified.

Thank you very much.

Yeah, great to be here with you.

Yes. And thank you for your service as well. I have a long line of family in the military, primarily the Air Force and the Army, not the Navy, but I really appreciate your service and everything that you are bringing to the table beyond. And that's, I think, one of the most interesting parts of your origin story. We don't typically picture naval combat veterans Navy officers, as people who are at the forefront of gender equity research. Can you talk about how your military careers shaped what you study and why you care about this?

It's such a great question, and a lot of people want to know that about David and I, I think, because we're not the usual suspects when it comes to talking about gender fairness in the workplace. Just speaking for myself, I think, you know, there were multiple things, but Certainly I've always been an academic research nerd and looked at the research showing that women get less access to developmental relationships, for example, mentoring and sponsoring. And for a lot of reasons, men don't lean in, they don't engage with women, they feel a little anxious and uncomfortable. Always been curious about the why for that. And then personally, you know, I spent my career at the Naval Academy and David was there with me. That's where we began writing. And boy, we're around these young women who are going to lead sailors and Marines in combat, remarkable young women. And so our lens on competence and capacity and ability for people in the military officers, I think was shaped by what we were around every day. David and I also have women in our lives personally who were in parallel career tracks to us in the military. And so we got a front row seat often to hearing about gendered headwinds that we don't encounter as men in very similar careers with similar styles, maybe leadership and personality-wise. We just didn't encounter those headwinds. And so I think for both of us, it's probably been the personal and the professional.

Yeah, I would just add on to that, you know, for me, over the course of my 30-plus years in the active duty in the Navy, I came in at a time when women were just being integrated into the military. So in the early '80s and had the chance and the opportunity to really be a part of seeing how gender integration occurred over the course of my career and seeing again, the disparities and the inequities that happened along the way, the things that went really well and sometimes the things that didn't. And so I had, like Brad said, we had a lot of different kinds of front row seats into seeing how this occurred and the challenges and then how it again, didn't allow for some of the same opportunities despite the fact that, you know, the levels of performance and, uh, and the need and demand signal for, for these talented women to be there doing the job was there. And so that certainly shaped a lot of my perspective too. And more importantly, I think kind of questions about why as a, as a profession, as an organization and our units out there, why more men weren't engaged in this conversation around why we shouldn't be better at doing this integration and why we couldn't remove some of the barriers. And, and because again, a lot of those conversations happened on the sidelines, happened, you know, in, in back rooms where people weren't there and listening, but they weren't done publicly. And so we saw in many cases, a lot of men were in private where we might consider allies for women, but they weren't there publicly. And they weren't there out and talking about it and advocating and doing the work that needed to be done. And so I think for Brad and I, that was one of the questions we had and where we started this line of research was really about what holds us back, right? Why aren't we engaging more publicly? Why aren't we more— we understand the business case for this, why it's so important for our organizations and certainly the military. There's a special piece to that around mission accomplishment., and the moral aspect of that, of, of taking care of our people and, and the service to our nation, that we should have the very best out there. We should have everybody the same opportunity as, as, again, recognizing that it, there are lots of barriers to entry into the military already around some of the requirements that we have to have. And so we shouldn't be limiting ourselves to one particular gender.

And what was it that brought the two of you together? Was there a certain inflection point, a certain data point, a certain circumstance that happened that made you realize, wow, we are not only simpatico, but we can do a lot of really great work together in this issue?

Yeah, I think one of the things— and Brad, I know, probably has some ideas too— that we've talked a lot about this, about one, as professors and as researchers at the time when we were teaching together at the U.S. Naval Academy, that we recognized, as Brad said, from our research, for both of us, that there was evidence there to show and make the case for why we needed to be better at doing this. And there was some research out there again around kind of thinking about maybe some of the male psychology, some of the group dynamics, some of the other aspects we know about organizations and people that could be brought to bear to help us to provide solutions in doing this work. And so I think that was part of it. The other half of it was recognizing that just as you pointed out, there aren't a lot of men, especially men who come from backgrounds like ours out here talking publicly about these issues and how do we solve for them. And so It was interesting, you know, we recognized very quickly that walking into a room, especially a room full of other men, that we kind of had some privilege there in terms of them listening to us because we did come from a military background. We do talk about this from a research and evidence-based perspective, which tends to, to get more men leaning forward and listening a little bit, at least giving us the opportunity to make our case as opposed to just dismissing it outright.

Yeah, and Dave, you're neglecting the truth that this idea was initially hatched over a beer.

There might have been a beer involved.

I think many, many good things in our creative life have happened over that beer in Annapolis somewhere. And I think also, you know, Dave alluded to this, but we have a lot of fun, Anika, with male psychology, right? And we don't want to shame men. We don't want to blame men. That's not our brand at all. But we want to have some fun and be honest and authentic. And, you know, I'll just give you a couple examples. You know, men can be very anxious about engaging with women because, you know, there are false narratives, maybe related to Me Too. We love to remind men Me Too is pretty straightforward. Women would love to come to work and not be assaulted or harassed. Super low bar for us men to get over. And then, you know, we love to have fun with social psychology. So there's all this stuff on perceived mutual attraction because men can get hung up on that. I would mentor her, but what if she's attractive? And we'd love to share the research showing that when it comes to perceived mutual attraction, women are not into you. The evidence is really clear. Men tend to exaggerate how attracted people may be to them. So there's so many ways that we can kind of have fun with just, you know, our own psychology, our own inhibitions, our own anxieties. And we need to overcome those. We need to not let that be her problem. We need to address that ourselves so we can show up as gender-fair collaborators at work.

Yeah, I have a lot of strong male mentors in my teaching career. I was sharing with David before that I'm part-time faculty at University of Southern California teaching grad school, and I do aspire to also have the doctor in front of my name at some point. But I've had a lot of really great people who've mentored me who have been men. I also realized that in my own partnership, my partner, he was hesitant to engage until I said, we're flirting, it's okay. Yes, we— because of that very reason, like, do we hesitate? How do we proceed with caution knowing all of the things that are out there and not wanting to be put into the frame of other, of other gender stereotypes that we hear about?

Yes, yes.

So I'd love to hear a little bit about, you know, you have had 3 books now over the course of the decade. What what did you learn from the first two and from just the moving times that you realized there is a need for this third book and Fair Share?

Yeah, so maybe I can start with our arc, Dave, for the first two, and you can kind of tackle what led us to Fair Share eventually. But we started because all of my research, Anika Jackson mentoring relationships, that's kind of where we began because we were curious about men Leaning Out Versus Leaning In to Relationships with Both Men and Women at Work. And we wondered, how can we share with men the best practices from the perspective of women? So all of our research for all of our books involves going out and interviewing women and asking them very behavioral questions. So for Athena Rising, our first book, it was, have you had a male mentor? And often women had many, and sort of as you're referring to. And we asked them, well, what did he do? What did, what did you most appreciate? Can you give us behavioral examples? And we aggregated all of that across women, across industries, professions, and wanted to kind of come up with best practices we could give away to our brothers, other men who might not be sure what to do. Their heart's in the right place, they're just not sure how to execute a really inclusive relationship. Around the workplace. So that was Athena Rising. And then you may not be shocked, you know, we published that in 2016, 2017, Me Too goes widespread. And so suddenly Dave and I were being pulled into broader conversations just about, hey, how can men just show up in the workplace as great allies with women, as collaborators? You know, now Good Guys was that next book, and it was really about what we think of as public allyship. We're moving beyond the interpersonal from Athena Rising. Now we're getting to the public. This is harder for men. Now I have to hold other men accountable. I gotta put some skin in the game. I've gotta make myself uncomfortable by loudly championing and advocating for women, right? Sometimes men can be squeamish about that. You know, I don't want people to think there's something going on if I'm her loud champion and talking about her when she's not in the room, but Public allyship is crucial. So that was Good Guys, and that's kept us really busy. But I think what we realized is this is all great. The interpersonal is important, but until we change the workplace, we're not going to get there. We have a long way to go. So, Dave, maybe you can talk about Fair Share.

Yeah. And as we were working on Good Guys and looking at that third part of allyship that we talk about in Good Guys is systemic allyship. And this is really understanding how some of these workplace practices that we have that are based on some of these gendered assumptions about who we are as people based on our gender, right? Whether we're innate caregivers or we should be the breadwinner in the family. And how these practices that were kind of aligned with those roles often were creating a lot of these, the bias that leads into some of these inequities around pay gaps, for example, you disparities or lack of representation in senior leadership positions. And so we recognized that we needed to spend some more time really getting down to what are the best practices that are out there? What do organizations look at that are best in their class, best in their industry? What are they doing that really is innovative, that's different? Why are other organizations struggling with this so mightily? And it was interesting, you know, when we started kind of hatching the idea for this third book, it was a couple years after, a few years after Good Guys, which came out during the pandemic. And then of course, this was a few years, you know, we're kind of coming out of the pandemic at this point. And I think one of the things that influenced us quite a bit was the, what we had experienced, we all experienced during the pandemic in terms of kind of work and family and just the idea of what it meant to work from home and, and what is remote work all about and how effective could we be. And so I think it really began to get us asking some of those questions that really are the foundation and the basis for the new book around Fair Share. And that is really thinking about how do we begin to shift some of the practices, the structural part of work in a way that works better for everybody. Because I think the one thing that was very clear was that the workplace in so many ways, it is still a reflection of the 20th century. And the workplaces that our parents and our grandparents and before them maybe even created and was designed in many ways for the society that they lived in and grew up in. And that society has shifted and changed. And one of the big changes, of course, has been around family and family structure. And today, most of us live in dual-earner, dual-career families, whether that's by choice or necessity, because I need that to be able to pay the bills every day. That's the truth. That's where we are today in the world is mostly dual-earner, dual-career families. And so that means that just by that fact that we're both, you know, the roles of breadwinner and caregiver in most cases, and that we need, you know, not necessarily to optimize in one or the other, but to combine those in a way that works for people so that employers can get the most out of their employees, right? They can reach that talent and really help them to thrive and reach their full potential within the organization. That's, that's of course good for the, the organization. It's good for the economy overall. And also they're bringing home that money into the family, right? Which is good for the economy, the economics around the family as well. But too many times today, we're seeing that a lot of these challenges are based off of assumptions about who's doing the caregiving and who's doing the breadwinning. And so if I, as a, as a man want to be a, earning a paycheck at the same time doing caregiving, very challenging for me because the assumption is that I'm just in there earning a paycheck. I'm a breadwinner. That's my role. And so you don't need to be doing caregiving. You shouldn't be worried about flex work arrangements, which are perceived to be something that you need as a caregiver or remote work or parental leave or any of those, any of those, you know, things that we have today. And that's not the case. And so we really wanted to get down into the, the specifics around what is helping one, men lean into those roles as caregivers in the same way that allows women to lean into their roles as leaders and employees and employers out there and reaching their full potential. And how do we begin to optimize that in a way that works for companies and businesses as well as the family?

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I'm struck by so many things and getting a little off of my questions, but it is, uh, it does tie in. So I have been somebody who's been through all those roles. I did have a career. I got married, I became a stay-at-home mom. I was no longer bringing money into the household. I was the caregiver. And then came on the other side of having to be a single mom and go back to the workforce. So it's something I always share with my students. I have not had a linear career, and I have combated some of that, and not just from male leaders, but from women leaders and organizations of the expectation of how much I can work when I know that I have to go to my daughter's school, or if she's sick, I have to take care of something, or whatever the case. So that duality that you're talking about, that men also are having to learn how to express And so, you know, I'm definitely, I fall outside of that ideal worker norm that you discuss, that best employees are always available, no outside obligations. And you also talk about the aspiration-execution gap. So leaders who do want to create more fairness, but they're not quite sure how to get there. So I'd love for you to talk about those concepts a little bit.

Yeah. Boy, where to begin, Dave? There, there's, there's so much there.

I could write a book about this.

My quick first thought about that is you're exactly right, you know, in the way that you frame that. I think a lot of us, you know, 73% of us identify as a caregiver of some sort. 43 or so percent of us identify as sandwich caregivers. So we're kind of stuck on both ends with children, maybe elderly parents we're caring for. Dave coined a new term today, you know, the Big Mac generation, the, that Dave and I are now grandparents. And so we've got kids, grandchildren, and aging parents. And, you know, so a lot of us are struggling with caregiving, but we don't feel seen. We don't feel recognized. We don't think that our organization has any awareness or any concern about our caregiving identity. So many times we cover, right? We hide, we feel invisible. We don't feel permission to, if we have to leave, for example, to do something with a child or stay home. We don't feel permission to leave loudly. And this has predominantly been, been borne as a burden by women, right? Uh, there's so much research on the maternal wall and the motherhood penalty, right? So boy, if women self-identify at work, they immediately face bias and stigma. Well, she sounds like a busy mom. She is not going to be available for travel. She's going to be distracted. For years and years, people like Dave and I had a fatherhood bonus, right? So you find out we're dads, people by and large say things like, wow, that's great. You guys are active with your kids and you're rocking it at work. Kudos, you should get a raise. Just the opposite for women. That's beginning to shift a little bit as you alluded, Anika Jackson Jackson. Now more and more men are starting to struggle. They're feeling the pushback, they're feeling the bias, right? Why do you need to take so much parental leave? Dude, you have a wife at home. Men are getting the pushback. Pushback and they're feeling the dissonance. They're feeling the conflict. They're feeling the stress. I can't really live into the kind of dad and partner I want to be while I'm trying to have this career. But Dave, other thoughts you've got?

Yeah, I think one of the things that really struck me, Anika, that you shared, and it's a story that we heard many times over in the research that we did for, for actually for the first, the last two books, especially. Was this notion that a lot of times people partner and they come together and they very maybe explicit about the fact that we want to have this very egalitarian relationship and share equally amongst all the work, right? Everything from the domestic responsibilities, caregiving when it's, you know, a part of that. And, you know, and the breadwinning, right? And the bringing home. I want to share equally. In doing that. And I think the reality is that it changes over time quite a bit for most people, most couples, and it becomes more equitable, right? Because it kind of goes up and down based off of a lot of different factors that go into that. But it is, right? It's a renegotiated, kind of a renegotiated informal contract that most of us have, I hope. But the one thing that we heard over and over again was how people would have these agreements and they actually did fairly well with them earlier in their in their families and their career lives, right up to until the point where children came into the picture. And it's like suddenly once there is a pregnancy and there is maternity leave or parental leave involved, that again, it typically goes, you know, for women are more likely to have access and to actually be able to use it, that now everything changes, right? Now they, it. We might've looked at you before like you are going to be a caregiver if you're not already. Now you are a caregiver. It's, it's, it's a very public thing and, you know, and expected of course, but we get penalized on it at this point. And it's, and I think one of the things that the couples told us was that we were trying to stay aligned and do our fair share, right, of the caregiving, of the domestic responsibilities and the breadwinning at the same time. But the workplace was not structured in a way that allowed us to do it. We were constantly running into these barriers or speed bumps, right? Wherever you want to— this resistance. It's just, you can just feel it around you. It's like, as Brad brought up a lot of the different examples of that about, well, why do you need to take this time off? I mean, don't you have a wife? And why can't she do that? And, you know, all of these kinds of things. And Again, it just shows you how the practices, right? It's the specific practices we have within our workplaces that are holding people back from being able to do, right, to have the kind of lives and structure around family and work that they're looking for. And so to me, that's always something that reinforces in my mind that, hey, I could have enough agency and ability and will to do what I need to do. But if the workplace doesn't align with it in a way that it facilitates that, or at least allows it to happen without resistance, it's really hard. And people eventually, they look back after 10 years, 20 years, and they go, I don't know how we got here, but it just feels like we had this agreement and then it was like a death by a thousand cuts over 10, 20 years. And here we are in trying to pick up the pieces from it. And so we're trying to make the case that there are workplaces and there are employers and there are leaders who are advocating to be able to do this. And this is something that we can all do in this country.

Well, and I wanna turn a little bit to talking about the shifts that we see in the demographics of the workplace. Because I, you talked about the Big Mac generation, right? I have, my daughter is about to launch and go off to university. My mother is in her 80s. You know, luckily she's like doing really well, really healthy, but I can understand and see where the two of you are at. I also know as somebody who teaches grad school, the difficulty a lot of my students have, you know, blame it on AI, blame it on globalization, blame it on whatever you want, but there are issues getting new people into the workforce, getting them trained because a lot of those jobs are gone. But then we have other workplace shifts going on as well. So, I'd love for you to talk a little bit about the interplay of these workplace shifts with the demographics and How do you think this work is going to also help rather than hinder, you know, what companies can do?

So yes, AI and technology, certainly a driving force and, and certainly in the news and, and on a lot of people's minds today. And, but, you know, this, to some extent, this isn't really new, right? As we look back across time, there, there's always been technological shifts that have, you know, reinvented or provided opportunity. They've hurt some jobs. They've helped others, created new ones. I mean, you can go back to the internet or even the, you know, even closer, the smartphone, right? The smartphone was even maybe in many ways was the thing that really brought the internet to everybody, put it in the palm of our hand very quickly and changed all sorts of things and the ability to think about business and earning money and the way we live very differently. And so, in some cases, you know, we think about this as something that from a technological perspective that younger generations have an advantage because they kind of grow up with it to some extent. And so obviously there's some experience with using the technology that definitely allows them to be able to integrate that better as they move into the workforce. But I think one of the challenges is recognizing that we all need the ability to leverage that technology. We all need the access to it in a way that moves us to do that kind of work, but also recognizing that in many cases, especially as I think about a lot of fields and occupations, professions that tend to be more female dominated, and we don't often talk about them that way or being female dominated, but certainly healthcare and education, especially primary education, are majority women. Although there is the disparity, disparities around senior leadership, in, in both, today being more male. But again, we need more men in those occupations, and the same reasons we need more women in some of the more majority male occupations. And, and certainly technology is one of those things that can help us if we're purposeful and, and thoughtful about how we do that and using that to move us forward, as opposed to the challenges that we're seeing today. And we're hearing more of this, I think, out there in the public sphere around how this is hurting, you know, young people. And especially there's been a lot of focus on young men, boys today, and certainly around the advent of the iPhone or the, you know, the smartphone out there being one of the issues related to it. But I think there's more to it than that. And people like Richard Reeves are out there talking about this a lot more and bringing it into the forefront of our conversations. But even Richard talks about, again, the fact that we need more men going into these places where they can be role models for other more junior men and young boys out there. Education being a really important part of that as well. And healthcare is certainly no different, right? If we don't understand how— what healthcare is all about, which is part of the caregiving component as well, that's a problem. That's a problem for us. And it creates a divide in our society that, again, it's not going to, uh, not going to help us move forward into creating a better workplace.

And just one quick add-on there, Anika. We spend considerable time in the book talking about flex hybrid remote work. Talk about something that is going to reshape the workplace. We talk about people, typically men who look like Dave and I, who post-COVID wanted to snap their fingers and order everybody back to full-time work 24/7. And these are men who succeeded in a workplace that looked like that, right? So that's all they know. And, you know, the challenge for a leader is to look at the data, look at what we learned during COVID how people can be incredibly productive when they're working remote or working hybrid or have flex work benefits. And it's a level setter for caregivers, right? It just normalizes the fact that we all need flexibility. We can be very productive. We can work at hours that work for us. And it's a leader who's resistant to looking at that data that I think is going to get left behind. Their company's going to fall behind ultimately.

And as you were researching and finding companies that did well or maybe underperformed, what were some of the qualities that you saw? And I don't want to give the whole book away, of course, but what were some of the things that people were doing right in businesses that were finding success?

Yeah, I'll mention a few things. I'm sure Dave will have a couple. Let's start with leadership. Those companies that are really doing well in this area, getting to gender fairness, becoming best in class as an organization that's gender fair, they're leading from the top. You're going to find the CEO of that organization owning it. He's not outsourcing gender fairness initiatives to the women's ERG or maybe human resources. No, this is a core business objective. We have core business targets relating to gender representation at every level. I take it very seriously. If we're not meeting those targets, I want to have a conversation with key stakeholders about why we're not getting there. So I'm going to hold your feet to the fire. This matters. So people in those organizations understand that this matters. It's a core business objective. The CEO shows up at every gendered event and doesn't run off to a more important meeting. He's taking notes. He's leading it. This is how you show that that this is core to who we are and it really matters. So, and then I'll just mention one other thing, the data. In these organizations, these folks look at the data. They're not afraid to look at it. They don't ignore it. They want to know, hey, you know, don't just talk to me a good game about, you know, gender representation. I want to see the data on how we're hiring. How many women are we bringing on board? What's our attrition rate for those high-talent women that we've worked really hard to attract. And then I want you to disaggregate that data. And I want to know how women of color are doing. How are we doing at all levels with women that have different identities? They have identified maybe in the application process. And then you better talk to me about advancement. I want to see our pay parity numbers. Organizations that have leaders that are demanding the data and then even going beyond that data to have listening sessions with women. I'm not going to just assume everything's okay. With women in my company, I want to listen to them. I want to go to the women's ERG and become a member, find out how they're doing. What am I not hearing as a CEO? This is how you really lead, I think, on gender fairness.

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Those are good ones. I love them. Yeah. The other ones that I would add to though, that is along the lines of assumptions is in addition to not assuming that everything's okay, is that the assumptions back to where we started around gender roles that don't assume that just because I am a man that I don't have caregiving responsibilities. Don't assume just because someone's a woman that they do have caregiving responsibilities. Don't assume, right? Just don't assume and stop there. And then ask the questions that you need to ask to understand. One of the challenges we have just kind of as a broad overarching issue within organizations today is a lack of transparency. Some of that's a lack of transparency of, so why did we have this policy and how well are we— so we created this great policy. How's the implementation going? What are the take rates? How's it being used? Is it, is it achieving the kind of outcomes, right? This gets back to the data. Piece that Brad was talking about, making sure that we're measuring the parts of these that really matter the most, that really speak to what we're trying to accomplish in the organization. And as an example, one of the broad ones that most organizations today are dealing with is this issue around caregiving. The fact that caregivers do not know their— I'm sorry, employers do not know their caregiving population for the most part. They're afraid to ask. They're concerned. They're worried about asking because they think they're going to get sued or there's going to be litigation against them in some way because they infringed upon their employees' rights. Caregivers, employees are afraid to say, to divulge the fact that they're a caregiver, that identity, because they're worried about being discriminated against, right? I'm not going to get that promotion. I'm not going to get that opportunity. I'm not going to get that pay raise. Because they think that I'm not committed or they're going to lose me in some, some minutes. So we have this, this gap that's really hard to close. It's a bit of a conundrum around caregiving that we have today. And we've got to figure out how to develop some transparency and ability to bridge that gap, to have the conversation so that one, again, most employers, they want to help, they want to meet need and they don't understand the need. They don't understand the population. So what is that need? And so how can I help you help meet that need? And caregivers need to be, be able to talk more openly about their caregiving responsibilities and the challenges they might be facing. And some of the great things that they learned too about while they've been doing caregiving that are advantageous and benefit. There's a lot of skill sets that come out of caregiving that are helpful in the workplace. So we can talk about those in a variety of settings. And this will help, especially, you know, for men. It's not that it's different for women, but really hard to get men out there talking about caregiving roles of any kind. And if we're going to really begin to make this change, we've got to learn to role model this. We've got to, and the more senior you are, the more important it is for you to role model what it looks like to do this and to do it well and to normalize it so that the, again, junior men looking at you can look up and go, oh, it is okay for me to use that benefit, right? Whether it's parental leave or a childcare benefit or an elder care benefit, right? All those different things that we have available to us. And it's okay to talk about some of the challenges that you're facing with your manager. Right? So we can, they can understand what I'm dealing with and help me. Until we can have that kind of psychological safety within the workplace, it's going to be really challenging to bridge that gap.

And these are huge organizational shifts.

Oh yeah.

I mean, at any level of organization, if you have 5 employees, 10 employees, you're an enterprise solution. I was once volunteer leader for about 9 years of a nonprofit organization in Houston. And one of the things that we tried to do was make sure that our board matched the demographics of the service area. And that work, you know, not everybody wanted to pursue that work. It took a long time to move the needle. It probably took 3 or 4, you know, people who are in the role of chairperson to actually get that implementation accomplished. So what are we looking at in terms of that change when you do see organizations that are making those strides? How long is it taking them? And, or does it, I mean, obviously a big answer could be, it depends, but when you see it done, Well, what are you seeing?

Yeah, I think as social scientists, our, our answer is, is always, it depends. Human behavior's complex and, and certainly change is something that's even more complex and, and difficult to do. One of the things, I think one of the bright spots that we see is that with startups, for example, if you have leadership that is being very purposeful and thoughtful right from the get-go in how they structure and create the organization, it can be done immediately. And we have some examples we use in the book around that and looking at everything from tech to retail and to making ice cream out there, right? There's those examples in the book about people who it was important to them. So from a va— making a values-based organization, right? The, it's part of our cultural, you know, instilling those cultural values within your organization and your people. We're going to create policies that are aligned with that and practices that are aligned with that. And if they don't align, we're going to question it and then try to figure out what we need to do, whether we need to have that or change it in that case. You know, for organizations that have been around for a long time, and there are a number of them in this, in this country, you know, it can be more challenging and especially there's more tradition, there's more history that we have to overcome. I think there are great ways to use that history and tradition to facilitate the change. Again, if we can be thoughtful about it, and there are some great examples of companies that that have been around for more than 100 years in the United States that are doing great work around this. You know, Levi Strauss, you know, a great company that's been around forever is doing great work with this. P&G is another great example. Huge corporation, right? Been around for a long time in this country and doing great work. How come they can do it? And then there are the others who are not.

Yeah. And I think, you know, often in that case, the latter case where you have the calcified workplace norms that are much tougher to change in a big organization. Often, again, it's a leadership fail in terms of not showing the courage to interrogate those old norms and, you know, the way we've always done it kinds of mantras. If you're not willing to interrogate those, it's going to be really hard for you to change your culture.

Yeah. Going back to what you were talking about with regards to the lessons we learned during the pandemic,. And one of the things that you discuss is a results-oriented workplace. And so can you talk about what that looks like when people are doing it correctly in their businesses?

Yeah, boy, Dave is probably more of an expert on the results-only workplace than I am, but I would just say, you know, these are organizations that don't get hung up on a lot of the ancillary variables about how where somebody happens to be working, right? And, you know, this is especially salient for caregivers. Where it's best or when it's best for you to work is probably not important. What's important is what you're producing. Are you producing quality work? Are you collaborating effectively with your team, even if it's not synchronously? I really don't care honestly about those variables. What I care about is what's the quality of your, your contributions. To the organization. That's hard work, right? Getting to results only, because it is so hard from a bias perspective to ignore things like, who do I see every day, right? These presenteeism kinds of cues about who the best workers might be, because I see them even if they're playing solitaire at their desktop computer. I just make assumptions that they must be really productive. So I have to push beyond that. I have to ask for the right data. Let me just see the results. Let me see the contributions. Let's measure those things fairly somehow so it's not linked to where somebody's working. That takes a big commitment to get to a kind of a results-only culture. Anything you would add, Dave?

Yeah, I think that's right on. And I, you know, one of the things that we found, I think, as you mentioned, from the pandemic was as we were beginning to work more remotely and maybe somewhat normalizing that, I guess, even though remote work existed before the pandemic, people don't realize that sometimes that there are entire organizations out there that were founded remotely to do this work. And they're looking at it, everybody going, what? This is no big deal. We do this all the time. But their work structures are different, right? Their work, the processes, their workflows are different. The timing, the mechanisms for communication, for doing the work is different. And so they measure it differently as well. And performance is just one piece of that, right? Because you have to align the performance metrics with the kind of work that you're doing and where and where, how you do that. And so it's not about hours worked. It's not about numbers of days worked. It's, and we might pay people to some extent in that way. And so compensation might be connected to that. And I think that's one of the things we get hung up around is The fact that I pay you some sort of an hourly rate or I'm paying you on a weekly rate or whatever the case might be. But today we see, and I think the gig economy has started to move this as well, that it's much more about, it's a chunk of work. It's a project, what might be one way, or a task-based piece of it. You are going to accomplish this piece of it and get paid for your performance based on that. That performance has a certain amount of, again, measurable outcomes that we look for. I think the other places this gets more challenging is in more service-related. Healthcare is certainly an interesting one. Education's another one. First responders are another one. There's a lot of these where the mission is a little bit different. And so how we measure the outcomes or the, the results in this case are a little bit different too.. And so we have to think about, you know, how do we do this in healthcare? How do we do this in education in a way that makes sense and that everybody feels like, again, they're being treated fairly compared to everyone else and not again told that they have to be working in a particular way, even though it doesn't necessarily need to be or align with what they want to do.

One of the things that you also brought up is the fact that a lot of emphasis is put on young men who are trying to find their place. So what do you say to the leader who is afraid of being seen as favoring women when they're trying to create equity in the workplace when we do have this challenge?

I'll jump in. I would say, you know, if we're really talking about gender fairness, we're not leaving men behind. That's the last thing we want to do. And I think that can be kind of the erroneous conclusion if we're advocating for gender fairness. People assume that's just about women, but it's really not. And I think we've gone out of our way, you know, in fair share to say that's been one of the areas where we've really gotten it wrong around DEI and around gender equity. We have not brought men along and, you know, and there are different ways we have neglected that. I think sometimes the messaging has been shame and blame. Hey, you guys go to your annual sexual harassment training or implicit bias training, but there hasn't been any messaging about what's in it for you. When you're a great collaborator, a great partner, a world-class mentor and sponsor across gender, right? So it's just part of your brand that you mentor and sponsor both men and women. We haven't shown men what's in it for them. And there's a lot, you know, we talk, we try and go through a lot of that in the book, but boy, you know, men enjoy their career more. They're more likely to get promoted if they're great collaborators around gender fairness. They get to take all those skills they learn around communication and EQ home to become better partners and parents. Right. And so there's a lot in this for guys. We're not— we don't want to leave them behind. So it's— it can't be zero-sum. It can't be either-or. Really kind of our mantra is how do we go there together?

I think the other part of this that we look at this is kind of there are two sides of the same coin, right? In— the thing in removing barriers and some of the— and changing some of the structures to allow and help women to be able to reach their full potential. In doing some of those things, it also is helping men to lean into the things that they are looking for as well. In many cases, that is, they're looking for the opportunity to be the caregivers that they promised that they wanted to be right from the beginning, right, in their partnerships, and allow them to do that. And men are looking for that. A lot of research out there that supports that. And we even see some research that maybe some of that's moving in the right direction right now. There was a recent study that came out, uh, got highlighted, I think, in the Wall Street Journal about men kind of stepping back a little bit, meaning stepping back into the home and spending more time doing those responsibilities, spending more hours. It was a time use study, spending more hours doing those things and being happier about it. Imagine that being happier, doing the things that you wanted to do, bonding with your children, make— having those relationships. As it turns out, the other side of that is that it does make you a better employee. It makes you more committed to your organization if they're aligned in supporting you in doing that work. Because now it's like, okay, my organization's working with me to make me feel fuller and better at doing this. And so I become a better employee and I am more committed, more likely to stay with the organization and perform at a higher level. So again, I think as leaders can take that data and that research and, and begin to think about, all right, so what else can we be doing? How else can we support again men and women? Right. It's not an either or. This is an and for all of this.

So if somebody is listening, who's a leader of their organization, they read Fair Share, they implement half of your suggestions. What does their organization look like in 3 years and 5 years? Or what do you hope that they look like?

I hope they're, I hope they're, they're, again, it's one of these where they're retaining this talent and they become, it just becomes what I think of as just like one of these, these best workplaces to place where, you know, they're known for, this is a place where people want to go and they never leave. And we know some of those organizations today, you know, that it's hard to get into that organization because people, once they get in, they never leave. Because they love it. They love working there. And it's not because they love getting time off or they love not working. It's they love the work that they get to do. They love the environment that they get to do it in. And they love that they, they're valued for who they are 100%, not for just who I am as a, as a manager, as a leader within the organization, but my whole self, right? That I can, I can be in there and I can talk about what I'm doing as a caregiver. I can talk about the challenges with my colleagues at work. And we have a, we have a community of of support that helps us to become better and stronger. And so to me, those are those really strong workplaces that I really, I would expect that we'd see more of those out there in the world and people just kind of clamoring to get into them.

And I'll go one further, Anika Jackson. So let's go 20 years down the road, right? If they really adopted a significant number of those recommendations, just imagine that bell curve for things like IQ and EQ and creativity and innovation. You know, half the people at the top are women. So if you expect to be around in two decades in this economy, expect to be competitive, you better not be excluding women. You better have gender balance from the mailroom all the way up to the C-suite. If you don't, I don't think you're going to be around to have this conversation in a couple of decades because your competitors are going to be those places that prove to be welcoming for everybody, including those of us with caregiving identities. It'll be the go-to place, place I want to work. So it should be scary for people who think I can ignore some of these recommendations.

I always ask one question at the, as we get towards the end of my interviews, I'm going to, I'm going to ask you a couple of questions. The first one is, I mean, the book doesn't come out for a couple of weeks as of when we're interviewing and when this recording will come out. So what is one thing that any leader listening today could implement to start making changes before they can get their hands on a copy of the book? And the second question is, do you have a favorite quote, mantra, some words that continue to inspire you down this line of work?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe I'll start with a mantra. Maybe we should both start with our mantras, Dave, and then, you know, so mantra, I've got to call on Eve Brodsky, you know, cause Eve really kind of gave us a tagline for the book, which was when we allow men to lean in to their full power at home, we can finally allow women to lean into their full power in the world, in the workplace. And that kind of undergirds everything we're thinking about, I think, right now. And if there's one recommendation here, it is, you know, especially for leaders who are are maybe listening in, you have to role model this. You have to make it okay. And I'm talking about caregiving. I'm talking about bringing your whole self to work. If you keep invisible, if you keep covering your own caregiving identities, what a profound missed opportunity. So if you haven't gotten the book yet, start thinking about how open you are about your own struggles around caregiving. How that might be inspiring for people around you, just to see you be a little more authentic. And, you know, that's a great way to begin.

I completely agree with the, uh, the mantra with Eve, uh, is still one of those that I think always just kind of resonates with me when I think about this topic. But I, I think the other thing is one that we have, right, and I have consistently used over the years, and it It's still true in this book. We continue to say it, but at the end of the day, gender equity starts at home. And one of the reasons I believe that is, again, change can happen lots of ways, right? Change can happen top-down, bottom-up, and there's lots of arguments for all of that. And it's both, right, to some extent. And for a book that's based on changing practices, you would think that we would just be talking to you about top-down, but the reality is that sometimes we need pressure on the system, pressure on the workplace, pressure on the employer, a demand signal to show that this work needs to be done. And if we don't start doing the work at home, we don't show up and we're not really kind of forcing the issue and doing it at home. We won't change our behavior at work. And because we saw it in the research we did for Good Guys, and we saw more of it in Fair Share, that when men show up and they're, and they're really committed to doing this, at home, it changes their behavior at work. They talk about their caregiver roles. They talk about, you know, if they have to go leave early to go pick up the kids from school or take them to the doctor or they're the primary caregiver, they talk about those things. They talk about the challenges that they're facing because it's important to them about who they are. And the minute we start doing that, it starts to shift things at work and it starts to shift how we think about work. Work and the structures that are working for us. And we begin to work on changing some of those in a way that work for us and it works for everybody else. And we see lots of great examples of that that we highlight in the book as well about how men suddenly who have been thrust into some of these roles where they have to combine becoming the primary caregiver at the same time being a full-time leader and employee, that they've got to figure out a way to do both. And it causes them— that dissonance really causes them to think about how they're going to do that in the workplace and how they're going to— how they end up eventually advocating and being this really strong advocate for, for how do we do this for everybody, not just for me.

I know that I've only just touched the surface of all the things that we could discuss. I really appreciate you both sharing your expertise. This conversation is one, Brad and David, that I know listeners will come back to. I certainly will. You've taken something that I think a lot of people feel but don't know exactly how to change, and you've given us a roadmap. So to everybody who's listening, you can find Brad and David at workplaceallies.com. You can also connect with them on LinkedIn, and we will have all those links in the show notes. And of course, you'll be able to pick up Fair Share wherever books are sold— your favorite bookstore, Amazon, or anywhere else that you get your books. I just can't thank the both of you enough for being on the show, for sharing your expertise and giving us some guardrails and a map for the, what the future of work can look like. And a very, dare I say, optimistic image in this time of all of these things going on in the world and things changing the workforce and perhaps being in a new industrial age with everybody starting to move towards using more machine learning and artificial intelligence. We need good people, we need the humanity, and we need to make sure that we are truly centered and rooted in what we can do to be our best and to help other people be their best. So thank you again for being here.

Thanks, Anika.

Thank you.

And thank you to everybody who is watching this episode or listening to it. I'll be back again with some another amazing guests very shortly. In the meantime, think about what you can do to make change in your workplace, whether you are the leader at the top, whether you are the worker bee or anywhere in between. What is is one small step that you can make to make your workplace better, whether it is being that intentional person, that man who is standing up and sharing your truth about caregiving and other things going on, or being that woman who stands up and also advocates for herself. Thanks for listening or watching to this episode of Your Brand Amplified. Don't forget to leave us a rating or review on your favorite podcast listening platform. And if you want to To learn more, check us out at yourbrandamplified.com.