Transforming Founder Pitches Into Compelling Market Narratives with Carl Fudge

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What should be in the story and what should not be in the story, that ability to edit. And I just use this analogy all the time, but I find it to be so apt that there's no good book and there's no good movie created without a very strong editor involved. It's not just that you have this amazing author, just it flies off there out of their pen or out of their keys and it's like perfect. Like, no, there's an editor who's saying, hey, this doesn't work, this is too long. Hey, you missed out this critical bit of logic that allows the listener or the reader to know why this now makes sense. And by the way, if you put section 3 before 2, now this flow makes a lot more sense.

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Karl Fudge and I were just speaking about kindness and how nice it is to have a positive working environment and live in a space and place that is built on kindness of ourselves and others. So Karl, I want to welcome you to Your Brand Amplified.

Thank you so much, Annika. It's great to be here. Looking forward to the conversation today.

I'm very much looking forward to this conversation. Now, you are the founder of Presentation Mode. I'd love to hear a little bit about what Presentation Mode does. I know it supports tech founders, but if you can talk a little bit about that and how your background led you to realize this was a sweet spot that people really needed assistance on, that'd be great.

Absolutely. Yeah. Well, as you can guess from the name, Presentation Mode is all about helping build presentations, but it's really a lot more than that. So, Presentation Mode, I've, I've been back and forth on what is the right name to really call ourselves because we're not truly a creative agency like an ad agency, but not truly a design studio. So my latest iteration is a narrative strategy and design studio, meaning that we work very closely with founders and with funds to help them tell their story when it comes to pivotal moments in their life and in their careers, such as when they go and raise funds from venture capitalists, or when they want to go and make a TED Talk or an industry talk or make a sales deck. You know, it turns out that there are these critical presentations that can have a disproportionate impact on your trajectory as a founder or as a company. And as it turns out, it's not really about the design of that deck, which makes a difference. It's about the story. It's about that narrative. And we use design a lot to be able to elevate and amplify that narrative. But for us, it's all about, let's start with a story first, and then use design to really amplify that. So that's what the company does. It's very relationship-based. It's very coaching-based. It's about these deep, collaborative thought partnerships with founders and leaders who are really trying to change the world in some way. And it's about trying to articulate that vision in a way that's powerful and compelling. That moves people to want to join their journey. And so that's what we do. And I, I find that work to be very enjoyable, very rich, very meaningful. And I got to it a little bit by accident, although I would say that it's one of those things where just like with Steve Jobs, when you look back at my life and my career, all the dots do connect, although I just didn't know that this is what I was shooting towards at the time, obviously. But I'll keep it brief, but in a nutshell, started in psychology, started my career then as a business analyst at McKinsey. So that was really where I learned about business strategy. I went to business school at MIT, and then afterwards joined the design firm IDEO as a business designer where I was incubating and building new products and new ventures. So I've kind of got the strategy there. And I've got the design piece from IDEO. I left to join a startup, got excited about venture-backed companies, actually got laid off by a startup, which was formative in my journey as well. And that led me to the creation of what was initially a bit of a side hustle, honestly, where I was just helping founders out with their pitch decks. And then that became a business that really was just pulling me in and calling my name. And now it's beautiful because I use the psychology because I'm all about listening to people, using the strategy, using the design. And I'm obviously very close to founders and funds, which is a passion area of mine personally. And so, really everything I've done up to now has been combined in this presentation mode work. I just didn't know that this is what I was aiming for the entire 20-year journey of my career to date.

But as you share it, it makes a lot of sense to me as a listener, right? Because you have all of this experience in these really big organizations that have helped shape the way that you can work. On this content. And I know from working with founders that often the pitch decks don't tell a story because they don't, they're not the storytellers necessarily. They know what their product is, they're really excited about it, but maybe they're going to overload with too much information, right? They're not going to share the important things upfront. So, can you talk to us a little bit about that process of discovery that you have with your clients?

Absolutely. Well, what you just said is completely accurate. I would say those are two of the more common challenges that we see in founders' pitch decks, you know, especially being too long. But I think what's maybe forgotten about, because I think founders get a bad rap because yes, it's true that they probably more likely want to be deep in their product and the technical details. And so a lot of people say, oh, founders aren't good storytellers. And I think that's just a little bit unfair. I think that in general, storytelling telling is just difficult. And I think it's actually more difficult the more you know about a subject. I don't know about you and how your experience was in college, but I can remember some extremely smart professors giving lectures about areas of psychology and me walking away just with taking nothing from the lecture or the class at all, just because they hadn't been able to articulate it in a way that actually made sense to me as the listener. And I think it really speaks to what is just a general challenge, is being able to communicate something that you're an expert in to an audience that may not have that expertise. So you know way too much about it, which means that you end up probably giving somebody too much information, more than they can handle. Like they're kind of drinking from a fire hose. It's like nothing's actually going in their mouth because it's just going everywhere, because it's just too— the informational volume is just too much and too fast. And also, you don't have the ability to really understand what should be in the story and what should not be in the story. That ability to edit And I just use this analogy all the time, but I find it to be so apt that there's no good book and there's no good movie created without a very strong editor involved. It's not just that you have this amazing author, just it flies off there out of their pen or out of their keys and it's like perfect. No, there's an editor who's saying, hey, this doesn't work, this is too long. Hey, you missed out this critical bit of logic that allows the listener or the reader to know why this now makes sense. And by the way, if you put section 3 before 2, now this flow makes a lot more sense, right? And so, I think it's just difficult for anybody to tell their own story. And so, I just think that that role, like combination of an author and an editor, is this sort of magical, powerful combination. So, in general, that's a lot of the work that we're doing, is being that thought partner, being that editor, asking questions. Sometimes I compare it to therapy, asking questions that allow founders to come up with and generate these moments of clarity that unlocks their thinking that's almost magical. It's like, ah, you know, it's like, I've never thought about it that way before. I've never said it that way before. And it's like, great, let's write that down, shall we? That sounds pretty good. So I'm not necessarily this kind of creative genius or this very really intellectual guy that can say it better than they can, but I can facilitate a great process and a great conversation that can allow them to have the creative space to be able to articulate that vision in a way that they haven't before. And then I'm also, you know, and my team are great editors, great advisors to say, hey, this, this, and this, not sure that they need to go in, and certainly not at the start. But this, now that is, you know, that is the headline of the story, right? And that's a lot of what we're doing. That's a lot of what we're doing every day.

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Fantastic. And funnily enough, I think we've crossed cities because I was in— I've lived in San Francisco, but I was also in Houston somewhat around some of the same times that you've been— that you were there. And I love that your career path has taken you so many places, even through— you're an advisor. And out of all of this, one of the most unique things besides the way that you're approaching presentations and how to help founders and startups get the money that they need through the right storytelling mechanisms is that your company also is a women and people of color forward team.

Mm-hmm.

Which when you think about tech, you know, you don't usually think about those two things necessarily. We, when we think about startups, when we think about people who are actually getting funded, those are areas of very un— under-resourced people. And populations still. So talk about, you know, the intentionality that you put behind kindness and also the communities that you— and the types of people who are attracted to work with you.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm very, very fortunate. We're a small team. We're about 6 people, but I am the only male, and I think I'm also the only person who is not of color. And so in some ways, I'm a little bit embarrassed about that. In other ways, I'm also extremely proud of the team that I've been able to cultivate. It's a truly beautiful collaboration. It's majority females, majority females of color, majority people whose English is— where English is not their first language. We have multiple immigrants on the team as well. So, I mean, probably there is some self-selection. I myself, yes, I'm English, as you can tell from my accent. I spent half my life in the US. And so, I think there is this really beautiful relationship and common bond that we have. We have this amazing chemistry. I think It hasn't totally been intentional. I would say that I didn't start this company with this big DE&I agenda. I've never actually even used that term in relation to our company. It's been a function of we've met a lot of people along the way and we've had a lot of beautiful collaborators. And it just so happens that the ones that have contributed the most, that have brought the most talent, the most energy, the most joy, the most creativity, have all mostly been women and women of color. And so it's been about merit more than anything. But I would say as well, there is a particular style of collaboration that is really important to me, and that is being generous. That's about being respectful, and it's about being kind. In many places, like I worked at some very tough places, right? I mean, McKinsey is a tough culture. It's up or out. They're going to kill 20% of their employees every year. MIT is a tough place. Unless you can do Excel models with your eyes closed and your hands tied behind your back, you're not getting out of there with a degree, right? So I've worked in some pretty tough places, but I think there's a little bit of a myth out there that high performance has to be paired with or driven by some amount of sort of toughness, maybe even nastiness, some amount of leadership through fear. Like, if you don't do this, then there will be major consequences, right? Like, that was what had me at McKinsey, for example, staying up until 1, 2, 3 in the morning furiously trying to work on slides, just getting more and more tired, more and more stressed, more and more anxious, right? Because I'm trying to kind of stay ahead, stay in the game. And I sort of learned through my personal experience that that isn't really, well, certainly it didn't get the best out of me. Maybe it gets the best out of some other people, but I just kind of saw the toll that was taking on myself and others. And I think, you know, for me, having been in a lot of these organizations where, you know, that was oftentimes the tactic or the leadership style that was employed, one of fear. And it's not just that, I'm not necessarily talking about, bullying or overt nastiness. I think it's just some of the ways that performance is measured, performance reviews and feedback. You sometimes get into politics and things like that, which just make it difficult to feel comfortable, to make it feel joyful in the workplace, not knowing if you can really trust your colleagues, not knowing who's got your back. And for me, I just found that in my life and my career, a lot of personal energy and time was expended, maybe even wasted, because of some of these processes. And I just believe deeply in my bones that there is a different way. I believe deeply in my bones that to achieve high performance, there's not just one version of leadership. And I believe that actually when people are comfortable, when people can bring their full selves to work, when they can be joyful, when they can laugh, if they can swear, if they can sometimes be late, you know, I mean, like, there's just things where, hey, we're human beings here. And I think if we allow each other to actually feel comfortable as human beings, we have that safety that allows us to be more confident and more comfortable, which I think allows us to perform better. And so, I'm on a little bit of a crusade to prove that high performance can exist in a culture of kindness. And like, those two things aren't opposing concepts. Like, just because you're being nice to a colleague doesn't mean that you're not like asking for the highest level of performance. Like, you can actually do both at the same time. And I think just my team and I, we've just created this really nice group and understanding where we are asking each other to perform at the highest. We've got top, top clients, but we're asking each other how our days are. We're saying thank you. We're saying please. We are explicitly grateful and gracious to each other's contributions. And we're invested in each other's journey. The thing which makes me probably the most proud of anything, it's not revenue or clients or anything like that. It's seeing some of my team members doing things today that they couldn't do a month ago or 6 months ago, leading a brand project or speaking up in a meeting or writing this cool proposal, having an idea, like, I'm like, that's so cool. And so, I'm just trying to really create this environment where people can really grow and thrive as people and as professionals and do so in a cohesive way, which obviously helps us as a company keep on growing and achieving our goals together. And it just so happens that the people that have been the absolute best in service of all those goals happen to be women of color, which is just a beautiful thing.

Well, I am half Asian. And I have dual citizenship with Thailand, so I appreciate that very much. And I find that similar things happen with the way I work. And I think part of it is because of our brands as humans, right? And our— whether you wanna call it a brand or just your personal ethos and our own values, because that has to naturally, if you're doing it the right way, I think, right? Your company also needs to be based on those same values. And I've worked at companies that You know, people at the top told me that they had these certain values, but then I get into the organization and I bring my clients and, and my team and find that, oh, my team doesn't feel welcome. My clients don't feel welcome. They feel like a number. And the values that you told me you have, but you have these other clients who are the exact opposite of those values, tells me that you're more about the bottom line. And that's not a place I wanna be. Yes, I wanna make money, but I also wanna have a warm, comforting environment where we all have the opportunity to grow just like you. I think we're cut very much from the same cloth in terms of that. And I also teach grad school and the same thing when you're talking about professors that I'm like, yeah, it's always really important that I bring practical lived experience and case studies and examples into the classroom because I want students not to just think about things theoretically, where many times bringing just theory in doesn't— it's not helping them learn. It's not helping them grow. And it's also causing a lot of confusion. Whereas if you can bring practical application and that's all the things that you're doing with your organization?

Absolutely. Well, my right-hand woman on our business side, Anne, is Thai via Singapore. So, she would resonate, I'm sure, a lot with your backgrounds. But yeah, you know, it took me, I'll just be honest, and I know that one of the goals of your podcast is just to get really honest and really personal. And I'll be honest that it did take me a while to understand how important these values were to me.. And I came into it like a little bit, I didn't sort of start like with this personal mission statement and say, this is the way I'm gonna live my life. You know, for me it was a case of I was just struggling in certain environments or certain situations. And I was just coming home from the end of the day at work, feeling drained or feeling frustrated or kind of complaining. And, you know, eventually I did start working with a therapist and I was just trying to rack my head. I was just like, why, why do I feel this way? Why is my belly in knots? Why can I not sleep because of this conversation I had at work or this thing which happened, which felt unfair or inequitable, either to me or to a person I cared about, or a decision that was made that didn't feel like it was made from a place of intellectual honesty or commitment to values. And I was like, really, like, you know, I was just really beside myself much of the time just trying to understand this. And my therapist said, Karl, you have these values that matter to you very, very deeply. And when they're violated, that is so hard for you to actually accept that it physically pains you. And I was like, God, is that what it's been? Is that what it was this whole time? It's like, man, I could have done with knowing that about 10 or 15 years ago. Right. But I think also what's true too is the more you grapple with something and the more you feel pain from something, then the deeper, maybe the more profound the learning is that comes from that as well. And so I think because of that struggle and that journey that I went on that was for a long time. That just propelled me to want to do things in a fundamentally different way. And I think that the only way to do that was to start my own company. There was no way that I could sort of bring this backpack of my beliefs and values and morals with me and then sort of like apply it to an organization that was built a different way and hope to fit in. Because I think, to your point, it's about the misalignment. When you're cut a certain way and the company is operating a different way, trying to fit into that shape that doesn't really suit you every day, that just takes real, real energy. And I don't want to feel really drained every day. I want to feel excited every day. I want to go home feeling excited and proud and energized. And so I think for me, entrepreneurship, start my own business, was a vehicle for me to, yes, operate with more joy and kindness, but create a vehicle for others to also experience that same feeling. And hopefully, it can be one of the situations that helps us all as our group, you know, Aranza and Anne and Connie and Martina and Naseer. Like, I have such a lovely group. I hope that it allows us all to experience that that same feeling as well. And it's also frankly way more fun to, to do it as a group and to change each other's lives than just to kind of be doing this on your own in a more personal way.

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Oh, I mean, we have so many similarities. I also experienced physical ailments from being misaligned with companies I was trying to fit into or jobs I was trying to take because, oh, I'll get to be VP and I'm going to make more money. And, but yeah, you have to do what's best for you, your own health, your mental, physical health, and being able to bring that intentionality into the workplace because then you do find the people who are aligned. You find the people who also are going to do their best work because they feel so comfortable.

Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, obviously I was saying this that with some recognition that it, you know, it's a privileged position to be in, to have the opportunity to go and do that, to have been able to have the skills and the education that I have got. But one thing that I'm reminded of when you just said that, I actually just had coffee with somebody today in New York City, and we were just both relating about the fact that what mattered to us earlier in our career now doesn't really matter at all because it used to be all about that shiny name on your resume of like an exciting brand. It used to be about trying to make manager, director, VP, whatever the case may be. It used to be about money and income and all these kind of external measures of achievement and validation, but actually inside kind of made us feel a little bit crappy actually pursuing them. And there was this misalignment of what I thought was going to make me happy actually isn't really making me happy. And my friend, her name is Neely, she said, isn't it great getting older that you can sort of now with the benefit of age and maturity and calmness and wisdom, see the world in a different way, and not be chasing the things that actually don't really matter anymore and basically chasing the things that matter to you. You know, she has 3 kids and, you know, and has a freelance career. And I just thought that was really so well said because mostly you fear aging, you know, mostly you think of it as a negative, like, oh, getting older, and I got some more grays in my beard this year, or whatever the case may be, right? Like, and you start to sort of like really notice the passage of time in a negative way. I thought that was such a lovely thing to say. And also she said it's so liberating as well when you stop focusing on what the outside world thinks of you and more about what you think of yourself, what makes you truly happy on the inside.

And I do believe that the income and all of the wonderful things come out of that, out of being really true to who you are, your vision, your values.

I think so. Yeah, I think so too. And I think that if you are you're feeling your best, you can do your best work. And if you can do your best work, then you're likely to be able to generate the income accordingly with that. So, to me, it all kind of goes together and makes sense.

Turning back to your current business, you know, you work at the intersection of story, strategy, design. So, for people who are listening, who are thinking of storytelling as a soft skill, make the case for us. Why is storytelling actually a hard business skill?

Well, because it's fundamentally important to many parts of business, particularly fundraising, if you're a founder looking to build a VC-backed company for a couple of different reasons, but just very, very mathematically, I think you have to remember that there is more competition than ever for funds for investment because there's, I mean, the AI boom is one factor of it that, you know, you can have an idea in the morning and you can have a product in the evening. You know, things that used to take months or years to build can be built in hours or days. So we now have this kind of explosion of technology company creation. We actually also have less capital available to fund those companies, right? So you have less dollars, more competition. So to me, storytelling becomes a critical tool that is necessary to be able to stand out in that crowded market, to cut through the noise, if you will, to be able to make sure that you can stand apart. I think that you also have to remember too that investors are very, very time-starved and attention-starved. I mean, if you look at their calendars, if you look at how they spend their day, it's back to back to back to back calls, getting pitch after pitch after pitch all day, and then going to a networking event and then going to a founder's dinner and then going to a hackathon, right? So if you think about the informational load that they are consuming and processing every single day, it's overwhelming. To tell them a story is a guaranteed method to make sure that your company will be more digestible to their brain and more memorable to their brain and more compelling to their brain. So it's no longer something which is a nice to have. To me, it's an absolute must have. And if you're not investing in your story, you're definitely leaving something on the table, which is going to reduce your chances of raising the capital that you need. And if you can't raise the capital that you need, then you can't build the business that you are dreaming of. That will allow you to hopefully make your mark on humanity and the world and achieve, hopefully, an amazing outcome for yourself as well. So, that's how I think about it. I'm not sure if that made the case well enough for you.

No, I think it did. And I mean, you know, we could go down a whole bunch of data and analytics about how storytelling helps people put themselves in your shoes and it helps you retain the information better and all the other neural connections that people make. As well.

But I also— it's absolutely all true, right? You know, I mean, that game that we all played as a kid, the game of telephone, is the most illustrative way of showing the idea that a human trying to remember a cluster of facts is very ineffective at doing so. However, a human trying to remember a story is highly effective at doing so because over time, that collection of facts degrades in your brain instantaneously from me to you, to the next person, half of it or three-quarters of it is already gone. But if I tell you a story, the gist of that story actually gets stronger with the more tellings over time. And so, I mean, I think it's so scientifically and evidence, so scientifically proven and evidence-based at this point that there's really not much that you can debate. And so it shouldn't be a case of whether I should have a story, it'd just be a case of how do I tell that story? So I hope at this point, but with that said, I still think it's an underdeveloped about skill and craft that still many men, despite the fact that it's very clearly effective and impactful, I think it's still something which is really, really hard. And I think if you don't want to sort of look at neuroscience, I mean, just look at people like Steve Jobs, look at some of these. I don't think in the early days of Apple, the product was necessarily better than other computers, you know, yet they were able to build this incredible brand, this incredible following, you know, and they just reframed the whole conversation. It wasn't about RAM or gigabytes of memory or processing speed. It was like, hey, you know, with iMovie, you too can become a film director, Carl. And it's like, whoa, like you just told me a story that has like changed my whole criteria about what I want in my computer purchase, right? And so, you know, if you don't want to look at the neuroscience, just look at all the evidence out there and look at all the decisions that we ourselves make as consumers. What affects our decision-making? And it's, you know, very many times it's about the story or the emotional connection that you have with, with a product or a business.

Thanks for listening or watching to this episode of Your Brand Amplified. Don't forget to leave us a rating or review on your favorite podcast listening platform. And if you want to learn more, check us out at yourbrandamplified.com.

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