Andre Haykal Jr: Client Ascension, ListKit, KnowledgeX, The Bible, and Future Goals

Andre, I'm so stoked to be here today. Thanks so much. Thanks so much for coming. You have a lot of active projects. I like wrote down all the different things we could talk about. What is like your current overview of the main things. You got Client Ascension, which has like an events component and a community component and teachers. And then you've got. I don't know if you have any active agencies at the moment, then a SaaS. I mean there's a whole. What's like the. And then Stick Tok, which just hit one year anniversary day.

Yeah. So we got an agency that's kind of like within Client Ascension. We have a coaching program that is client Ascension assass, I.e. list kit, and a podcast that is Stick Tok. In the way I look at it, I've kind of like come up with this construct of like what makes business owners and entrepreneurs happy. It's having something that satisfies three things. Doing something for cash flow, which is List Kit, like doing something to build wealth, which is List Kit. Doing something that fulfills your purpose, which is Client Ascension, serving a past version of yourself, and then doing something for fun, which is stick talk, like just being with the boys, interviewing entrepreneurs, smoking cigars on a podcast. And so if you could hit all three of those areas, if you look at any entrepreneur, Patrick Bet, David, Gary, Vee, Ed Mylett, they all have different ventures that hit the wealth component, the fulfillment component, and then the fun component. And so that's kind of how we've constructed things.

Yeah. I find myself with Client Ascension explaining to a lot of people. They're like, you know, a lot of people just have this aversion to expensive, like online communities and they just immediately think that it's a scam. And I'm like, there are so many decisions this team has made to like. I'm like, this cannot be a wise financial decision. The amount of like the quantity and the quality of the different things that go on in there. I'm like, this just cannot be a. It's funny that like you've specifically segmented it as that is like a very purpose driven business.

Yes.

Because some of the things that you do to over deliver just definitely. Like, if I was operating the business, I'm like, that's definitely. Like if you had a cut, I'm like, those are beyond necessary. So it's cool that you've thought it through that way.

Like literally this week we work with Cole Gordon and we also get personal mentorship from Taylor Welch, who are two of the biggest names in the space of, like, building an online coaching program. And both of them look at our business and they're like, are you crazy? Like, why is it structured like this? You have to fire half the team? And I'm like, no, this is what makes it great. Like, this is the reason we're doing it in the first place. We have 18 expert coaches that we pay every single week to come into the program and host live calls. And from an outside perspective, it looks as if we're crazy, but it's fulfilling the purpose that it's there for in the first place, which is to serve the past versions of ourselves. And it also creates, like, this culture that you've seen kind of, like, explode in our own space here on Twitter. So there's a method to the madness. And it's also, what is the point in the first place? It's not to just make a bunch of money.

So what is the opportunity that you see with Liskit, then, if that's more of a purely business opportunity? Business.

Yeah. I'll say it right away. Like, Lizkit is our exit play. It always has been. And that's how we've really built things from the beginning, is client ascension will always be nice cash flow for us to live comfortable lives and do the things we want to do. But, like, I'm an entrepreneur at heart. I've grown up my entire life wanting and looking for, like, that big exit play, and that's what Liskit is. And, like, from the inception of the idea for ListKit three years ago is, like, this is a business that we can build and exit for 100 million, $200 million.

And that's what Liskit is.

So ListKit is essentially just a database tool. So our niche that we work in client ascension and our agency is cold email. We help people basically get new business through sending cold emails. And Liskit is a tool that cold emailers use to find the email addresses of the people they want to send cold emails to. And so as soon as the idea was, like, incepted, it was like, okay, we're gonna build this and exit it within three to five years. And that's kind of the track we're on now. We're still super passionate about it. I just know that the potential for exit is within a business like list kit.

Yeah. And you don't also develop the same relationship with your customers the way that you do with, like, a.

You can't.

18 hours a week of potential, like, coaching calls and daily Q and A.

You can't I mean, within three months of launching Liskit, we have three times the amount of customers as we've ever had in two years of running. Client ascension. And client ascension, on paper, is a more successful business. It's just a different type of customer. Right. You have someone paying you $79 a month to get a couple of leads from your database compared to someone paying you $10,800 to be in your coaching program for six months. It's a big difference in terms of, like you said, relationship.

I love it with Stick Talk. You mentioned earlier entrepreneurs like Ed Mylett and. And pbd. I know PBD is like, your big number one guest you want to get on your show.

Yep.

Why is that?

So, number one, like, the. The first thing that sticks out about Patrick Bet David is just, like, his background of being Middle Eastern. He's just what I look at pbd. Like, I just hear my dad talking. And, like, my dad was always, like, my number one inspiration growing up to be, like, an entrepreneur and like a hardworking businessman. And I hear the same stories, the same values, the same foundational principles that allowed PBD to be successful as, like, my dad ingrained into me. So I. I feel like I'm just listening to, like, a bigger, louder version of my dad when I'm listening to pbd. So I immediately gravitated towards him in the beginning phases. And it's similar to why I'd want to have Ed Mylett or Gary V. On the podcast is because I've been listening to and following the advice of this guy for as long as I can remember. And so it'd just be cool to sit on the other side of that and ask him the questions that I've always had listening to his show.

That's kind of funny. It's like, it's just like your dad's not gonna stop and have a podcast, so it's like the next best thing.

Yeah, Exactly. Exactly. And PBD's, you know, he's successful in business, so he's got a lot of good things to say. And the one thing I really respect PBD for is how he ventured into politics. That's like, something that Gary Vee will never talk about. And Mylett is very careful to talk about.

Andy For Sale is not there.

He doesn't care.

Yeah.

And I really respect that because politics is also, like, a big passion of mine. And it's always interesting to see, like, where people draw the line with talking about business. But business is politics at the End of the day. And I just love how Peabody has ingrained that and is just like fearlessly gone in and shared his views and brought people on. Like, he'll bring someone on the podcast and he'll be sitting across like you and I right now with someone that he hates or he just does not respect, and he'll have a conversation with that person. And so, like, that's. That's not a lot of people out there are willing to do that. And so I just. It's very entertaining and also educational at the same time.

So with all of these projects, what is the role that you typically play?

Right?

Because, I mean, you can't be making every decision for every one of these. And we say we like referring to a team. Is it the same team between all of them? Is it not complete overlap?

Yeah, it's pretty much the same overlap. This is a change that happened really, like this summer. So initially the core group was myself, Dan, who's my cousin, which is like, surprising to a lot of people because we just look so vastly different, and then Christian. So we're the ones that started Knowledge X, which was like the original Legion agency. We bought Daniel's program, Cold Email Mastery, to learn more about how to do cold email the right way, and then later on brought him on as a partner. So started Client Ascension, restarted the agency List kit was kind of happening in the background as well. Daniel wasn't yet a part of that, and then we brought him into that during the summer. And so that's our core group. There's four co founders and it's. It's. You'd be hard pressed to find someone in the space that has, like, as strong of a co founding group as we do. And I think that's. I know that's why we're so successful in all the different ventures we got going on. And it's why we can manage so much. Right? Because people, number one question I get is how do you manage. Let's get Client Ascension, the agency, the podcast, everything you do is because we have a great team. And so, yeah, I play a similar role. I'm more of. I'd say like the leadership role, more of like the managerial role. I hire all the people, I train all the people, I manage all the people and kind of just oversee the entire operation. I'm like the operations guy, I guess.

Why do you think the four of you have gotten along well and, like, been a successful team without too much friction? I mean, I've had a team of. There's a core Group of three of us and we work together really well. But I still think it is rare to see a group of people, especially you all seem to have big personalities. None of you are like the shy kind.

Yeah, I'm probably the most reserved. Like from an outside perspective, I get that a lot because I like to stay behind the scenes and just like, really, you know, work on my craft. And I'm not like a big content guy. Even though, like from the outside I'm making podcasts, I'm doing podcast interviews, I'm big on Twitter, I'm posted on Instagram. But to me, like, I'm not really doing much in the content space. The reason it works is because we're all so vastly different. That's the only reason it works. If we're too similar, we'd butt heads, there'd be conflict, there'd be ego. But because every single founder, myself, Dan, Christian, Daniel, has like their own kind of department within each business that no, none of the other three even want to get near or touch. Like Dan from, for example, he does sales. I haven't been on a sales call since we've started any of the businesses and I never want to be on a sales call. And so when Dan comes in and can handle the sales side of things, that's like the best news ever. Like, there is no ego inside of me that thinks I know better than Dan when it comes to sales. Same thing when it comes to, let's say for Daniel, like marketing and funnels and paid ads and like we were talking about in the car with some of these, you know, different, like low ticket products that we're scaling. Like, I don't want to be anywhere near that. And then you flip it around. Like, Daniel doesn't want to be anywhere near what I'm doing with operations and zapier and hiring people and managing people and firing people.

I'm thinking of like a one on one meeting with Daniel. Like an employee monthly. One on one.

It would last like three seconds. Yeah, right. And the employee wouldn't want that. So because we all have such vast skill sets, it allows us to operate without much conflict. And that's to me why it works.

That actually makes a lot of sense. I didn't thought about it in like that specific way because you all kind of seem like you have like your big skill sets and everything, but it is truly like everyone's just not involved and there's a lot of trust, obviously that has their own lane handled really well.

Exactly. Yeah. And that's where accountability Comes as well. When we notice that one area of the business is struggling, the rest of the guys can kind of gravitate towards that and figure out, like, okay, if we're struggling with sales, like, what does Dan need from us to help get the sales numbers back up? But it's never like, oh, I know better than Dan, like, let me come in and do your job. Like, I still don't want to do your job, but I know there can be room for improvement. And it's same thing, like, we all know, like, we all hold each other accountable. And I get that question a lot too, Is like, you guys are so different. Like, Daniel and I like, the reason it works is because we are exact opposites. Like, total opposites.

So I think one thing that I'm really inspired by about you is kind of the speed at which you've, like, accomplished a lot of these things and gotten these things in motion. Do you attribute. I mean, a lot of it. Everyone just, like, puts on Twitter all the time that, like, you're crazy hardworking, which I think is true as well. Like, when we were at the conference, you're just kind of zoned in and have, like, a crazy level of focus. But you also mentioned working with different coaches that are helping you. Like, what have been some of those big ways that you've invested to accelerate the timeline that you're able to do things.

Yeah, I think the biggest thing, like you pointed out, is just sheer work ethic. And that's something that I learned from my dad, like I pointed out earlier, and my grandpa, who's a big time entrepreneur in PBD. Like, if you listen to PBD's content, like the. The common thread amongst everything he talks about is you just have to work really hard. And I know it's not like the sexiest thing to say, especially in, like, today's times with entrepreneurs. There's always, like, looking for the shortcuts and how to do things in a more optimized way. But it's really just hard work, number one. Number two, things you can do to speed it up, definitely. Like, investing in the people who have done the things you want to do. Like, for example, like, we're out here in Arizona because we invested in Cole Gordon's mastermind. And Cole Gordon is someone that is, you know, 10 times further ahead in his coach. Coaching program than we are with client ascension. And so there's definitely something we can learn from him that we can then take back to client ascension and use to scale even faster. So we're not afraid to make those investments. But one of the ones that I made, like way back before I even was familiar with the info space and before I was really even successful as an entrepreneur was in a mindset coach Mario Lanzarote, who I've been working with for over four years now. He's the mindset coach and client ascension as well. And he really just helped me to like, get out of my own way. And I think that's the number one thing entrepreneurs struggle with, is they need to get out of their own way. And really what that looks like is in the beginning I thought I was the best person to do all the things required there is to do in the business. And so he really helped me get through that belief of you don't need to do everything. And that's what really pushed me to partner with Dan, Christian, Daniel, and just really just find other people that are better at the things I'm not really good at to do those things for the business.

Why did you decide to hire him in the first place?

I told Mario this and I think it's the number one sales strategy ever and it's the hardest to accomplish. Most people can't do it. But as soon as I got on a call with him, it was very clear that he knew me better than I knew myself. And as soon as I was able to identify that, I knew he's someone I needed to spend more time with and work with and that was it. There was no sales pitch, There was no hard pressed, you know, fast action bonuses or anything along those lines. It was just a genuine conversation of, here's who I am, here's where I'm at in life, here's where I'm looking to go, here's where, you know, I'm kind of stuck. And he could see right through it and point out all the things that I was struggling with behind the scenes, behind, you know, closed doors and say, look like I understand. And the reason he was able to do that effectively, come to find out, like, Mario and I are very similar. Like, we were very similar types of people with similar aspirations and backgrounds. But man, when we were on that call, he just explained again, like he was able to identify me and, you know, like who I am better than I could myself. And right away I'm like, okay, why.

Did you get on the phone with him in the first place though?

Podcasting. So this is like why I love podcasting because, like, we've had TikTok for a year now and as you pointed out, but Christian and I. That's how Christian and I initially connected back in college.

I'm forgetting the name. It's like something university.

Real talk university. So back in college I was like, big in entrepreneurship because I watched my dad, you know, be successful in entrepreneurship. I wrote a book because, like, my grandpa was an entrepreneur. So I was just, you know, raised in an entrepreneur household. And when I got to college, I just did not really have an idea worth pursuing. And so the next best thing was to, you know, start a podcast and figure out what everyone else was doing that allowed them to be successful. And that's where Christian and I met and, you know, got connected. We started a podcast together and just started interviewing people online that were doing well in entrepreneurship. And Mario is one of the guys that we connected with at an event actually, for like young entrepreneurs in New York City. We interviewed him on the podcast. Christian and I, I'll never forget, like, we're sitting in the corner of my bedroom doing the interview, and we're just absolutely mind blown. We're listening to like the next Tony Robbins. Essentially, he's just breaking down these really, you know, big ideas about mindset and self doubt and confidence and as college students, it was just like mind blowing. So after that, I followed up, got on a call with him, and that was it. The rest is history.

That's funny. That's exactly how I hired my coach this year.

Really.

Not down to every detail, but he, through a PR company, had reached out to me to come on the podcast. Just one of those people trying to book him on shows. And I, at the time, I was doing, I still do the analytics stuff, but I was really focused on getting more business for it, like outbound. And so he had like an E. Comm. Analytics company on the side. So I was like, I'll talk to this guy because he's doing something related to analytics. And then he came on the podcast and talked pretty much just about his coaching and stuff. And I was like, a lot of the same reactions. I was just like, mind blown. He understands my problems better than I understand my problems. So then like a week or two after the podcast, got on a sales call, discovery call.

Yeah.

And then same thing. It was not like a hard urgency close or anything. I was just like, yeah, I mean, I want what this guy has, so what better way than to hire the guy who has it? And what I need to do is either hire him again or kind of finish the first sprint. So that's like, been my next thing is either do I want to continue working with him or find someone in another capacity. But the experience I had with him was fantastic. So I've kind of been looking for like either renewing with him or finding another coach.

Yeah. Mario and I have been working on and off for four years now.

So it hasn't been continuous.

And that's, that's what I wanted to point out for you at least. It's like, I think the fact that it hasn't just been every single week since we first met, like meeting, meeting, meeting. That's what, you know, really creates things. Like it, it gives space for the things that we work on and talk about on calls actually, you know, come to fruition and happen. And so I haven't been on a call with Mario maybe in three to four months right now. And that's just allowing space for all the things we worked on leading up to this time off to really just play out in my life and then come back to it later on.

Yeah, I think a lot about the structure of not 75 hard, but the entire live hard program, like the year long cycle.

Yeah.

Where basically you're supposed to do 75 hard and then another 30 day version and then he wants you to wait at least like it's either one month or two months before doing the next one. Because it's like, let's see what happens when you have no training wheels, when you don't have the guidelines, when you don't have the structured accountability.

Yep.

So it's like what happens when that is the case.

Yeah. Like, are those now like Gabe and Joey from Default Kings? Are those now default actions or was it a temporary thing? And it allows you to kind of audit yourself, which is cool.

Have you hired a mentor and or coach on the SaaS side of things? Like, do you have someone kind of showing you all the ropes there or you're kind of just feeling that out based on. I know Daniel's had some success with different software companies in the past, but.

No, with Liskit, we've kind of just gone at it on our own, building it our own way in a sense. Because if you look at the different mentors in the SaaS space, they're gonna tell you, number one, raise, raise capital.

And there's probably bootstrapped SaaS.

There's bootstrapped? Yeah. So like, that's actually an interesting point. Dan Martell is like one of the guys that I would, you know, pay a lot of money to consult with specifically because he's built successful SaaS sales teams, which is like the number one thing that we're trying to crack the code on. But our approach to SaaS is so different than really anyone else. It's product focused number one, and it's community focused number two. And so people look at all the businesses and they kind of ask us how they all fit into each other or how we're able to manage it all. But the way we think about it is if we sign someone on the client ascension, the likelihood that they also use list kit is very high. And so if we could put all of our attention into the client ascension sales side, it's going to Funnel into the ListKit sales side eventually.

But is that going to bring in enough volume to be interesting in the beginning?

Yes. For ListKit to hit the scale that we want it to get to? No. But it's giving us the rocket fuel or at least the foundational capital to then go out and build a sales team, which is what we're doing now. So in the first three months it was great. You know, we have a lot of money coming in for a brand new business, high margin, whatever. Now we can go out and recruit salespeople. So just this week we brought on three new salespeople to help scale Liskit. And that's really from here where we're going to go is just building a massive SaaS sales team.

Yeah, I don't want to have this get into like, you know, infomercial for list kit territory. But at a bare minimum, even to me, like, what is the short pitch for? Everyone already uses Apollo or they use some other thing like why are you making this? Why would someone use this instead of that?

Yeah, it's really two things. Number one, quality of data. So when you do outreach using data from Apollo or Zoom info, if you're not careful with it, and if you're not as familiar with the platform in the ins and outs as someone like myself who's been using them for three or four years now, you're going to end up sending emails to data that is outdated and that's gonna not only ruin, you know, the emails you're reaching out to that are outdated, but it's gonna have a negative effect on the ones that are valid and actually good to send to. So you don't want that ever. And then number two, time savings. So the biggest pain point that people we talk to have using Apollo and ZoomInfo is the guys that are supposed to be prospecting, like making phone calls, sending emails, they're actually spending 90% of their day building the list itself. And so like, do you want your sales guys building list or actually reaching out to the people on the list, like obviously calling and emailing the list. But those lists aren't in place yet because of the way the software is. Like Apollo and Zoom Info are structured. And so List Kit is a platform that we want the sales guys to be spending the least amount of time in, get in, get your list, get out within minutes, as opposed to somewhere like Zoom Info and Apollo. They want you to use it as your CRM. They want you to use it as your sending tool and basically spend your entire day in the tool and not be productive at all with the sales numbers. So that's what Liskit really solves for is get in, get out and know that the data that you're getting is fully verified.

Switching a little bit here. You host a Bible study call with incline Ascension, and it's part of your Twitter bio, your religion, everything. Have you always been super religious or is that something you kind of came to later in life or. It's kind of been through line the whole way.

Yeah, it's definitely been like a leading value. Just the way I've been raised. Like, I've raised Catholic, went to church every Sunday with the family. But that kind of ruined things for me in a sense because it got rid of the meaning. Like I was just going through the motions because that was what I was led to do through family and through people around me. I understood its value, but I never really understood the, the underlying message and what it, you know, like the weight of it. Until really like Covid, where I kind of went on my own journey to, you know, question things and debate things and figure out, you know, really what I was believing in this entire time. And so the Bible study inclined ascension was not to, you know, teach people about the Bible. It was more so to get other people that are in the same spot as I am, which is like a self discovery phase, to go in and read the Bible and see like, is this speaking to, you know, my beliefs? And so the Bible study was just an excuse or a way for me to hold myself accountable to, you know, pursuing faith with other guys that were in, you know, similar positions in their faith journeys. So it wasn't to like preach to the, you know, to the client ascension students, here's what you should believe. It's like, let's just go through this together and see where it takes us.

That's. It's more just using the fact that you have a community of similar. Yeah, it's like hey, if anyone wants to hop on a call about this every week, I'm gonna be doing this.

Exactly. Exactly the intention. And it's been the best decision I've ever made because just through that Bible study, it's allowed me to create connections with guys like Matt Moore, who's one of my faith mentors, Jennings the priest, Gabe and Joey from Default Kings. And every single week, it's held me accountable to having discussions around faith with people that I actually respect. And I think there's. There's ways to go about it.

Right.

Like when you go to the church on Sunday and you're talking to people that are either way older than you or just really can't relate to outside of just what's talked about in church, it's really hard to understand. But when you can take a passage from, you know, the Bible or from a Bible study and relate it to, you know, client work and online business and building a personal brand, it clicks. Or at least it did for me.

Yeah, I think for a lot of either smart or like, high energy people, it's just not going to be interesting unless it's participatory, right? Yeah, like, unless you're actually, like, you can't just sit and listen to someone just talking. And like, really general lowest common denominator. Like, here's how this might apply to every single person in this room from age 5 to age, like 95.

Yeah.

Versus and just like, sit here and listen.

Yeah.

And like, stay engaged. Versus, like, all right, here's five to 10 of us guys who are all between 22 and 26.

Yep.

And we all do this exact same thing. Let's discuss this. And also, you're gonna have to say something otherwise, like, don't just be on this call.

Exactly.

It's a completely different, like, way to engage with the material.

Exactly. And that's been the exact experience. And again, it's been the thing that's accelerated my faith journey more than anything else. And it has also, you know, led me to pursue more of it outside of these goals as well, and to approach, you know, Mass on Sunday and some of these other areas where you can go and grow in your faith differently.

What's the actual cadence? Like, is it like, are you going, like, doing like a Bible in a year program? It's just whatever happens to be that week or it's. You're selecting it. Like, how are you curating?

It's more so devotionals. So devotionals are like reflections of different verses and passages in the Bible and that's been a really nice approach because we could read the Bible and we do a lot of times as well, like we'll read straight out of the Bible, but most of the time I find it better to read reflections from other guys just like ourselves and what they think about the Bible and how they interpret it. And we go way back to like Charles Spurgeon and the guy we're reading now, like Oswald Chambers. And that's really the cadence is just reading a devotional. And we also have the Tim Tebow devotional that he wrote, which is really corny, but it's really good stuff. I love Tim Tebow and he'll relate it to stories about, you know, playing football at University of Florida and all the things he's done in sports. So it's really relatable. Instead of just like reading, you know, just right from the source, what are.

Some specific ways this has actually been helpful? Right. Like you're kind of just like saying like, probably there's so many that like. But like, for someone who's just spent no time with kind of old religious materials, like, I don't see, I don't understand how this could ever, like, yeah, sound turn into something. Materialize you into something useful.

Yeah. So the number one thing for me is I've come to realize that the Bible or this, you know, book of text is the original self help book I've listened to, you know, Gary Vee, Ed Mylett, Patrick Pet, David, you name it. I've read all the books. How to Win Friends and Influence People, Think and Grow Rich. All of those concepts are based in concepts that are talked about in the Bible. And to me, like, that realization of like, this is truth was the biggest breakthrough. It's like, okay, this has to be true because everything that has come after is basically validating the points that are mentioned here. And so I think for me, and really for entrepreneurs in general, we like to question things and we like to push back on authoritative measures, whether it be in school or growing up, however. Right. And that's the same thing with religion. You question it, you look at it as like this, you know, maybe is true and you don't take the full weight of it because you don't fully believe in it. But for me, it's more so like being able to see like, this is truth and I should, you know, when I follow what is in the book and what is talked about, things work out in my favor. And it just, it's created for me at least a sense of guidelines to live by another Resource that has been incredibly life changing is listening to Myron golden, who reconstructed, reconstructed his entire business based on biblical teachings and has had more success in business than he's ever had since that inception point. And I just think it's. It's great for business owners to have some sort of moral behind what they do because we, we are in, you know, an industry where there are a lot of bad actors. Like you pointed out in the very beginning, like coaching programs get a very bad rep because there are a lot of scammers and bad players out there. But for me, I have now a sense of guidelines and principles that I live by because I know and fully believe that they are truth. And that's helped me to just show up differently as a business owner.

I think for a lot of people, you know, when you're young, you don't really have a chance to see, like, what life looks like if you ignore it.

Yeah, right.

If you don't have, like, principles and then, then you kind of like abandon them and then you go and see what life looks like without them. You're like, whoa, this is. Yeah, a disaster. Something.

Yeah, exactly. You need it and you don't know you need it until you go, like you said, without it.

Right, exactly.

And that's the biggest thing too. Like, you're not gonna. And I've had the success in business that a lot of people are after. I've had success in other areas of life. And no matter, like, where you have success, you're never gonna get that sense of fulfillment without the greater purpose, you know, behind you. And, and it's also like in the Bible, like one of the most successful people in the Bible. There's Ecclesiastes and then there's also the Book of Kings where it talks about. What's his name? Samson. No, there's one of the kings in the Book of Kings that asks for wisdom. Right. And he's given the most wisdom out of anyone in the entire existence because he didn't ask. Basically when God came to him in a dream and asked him what he wanted, he asked for wisdom so that he could properly guide God's people into prosperity. He didn't ask for money or for fame or for success for himself. He asked for the knowledge and wisdom so that he can properly guide God's people. And that's kind of what we're doing. Right. Like, I'm responsible for a lot of things, including a community of God's people through something like client ascension. And so I have a great responsibility to guide them to, you know, success and fulfillment with whatever they're doing rather than ignore them and, you know, focus that all into my own, you know, desires, if that makes sense. And that's why we put so much into the program we invest in so many coaches, is because we truly.

You feel accountable.

Yeah, I feel accountable. I have a weight of responsibility, if that makes sense.

Yeah. And it's not just about, you know, these people gave us money, so now we owe them something. It's like these people are making decisions that dramatically alter the course of, like, their business, which alters the course of their life based on everything we say. So it's like we get. We give them bad advice, they're gonna go do stupid things.

And it's got a multiplier effect because they also have clients that they're responsible.

For, then they're gonna get. Exactly.

And so if they see how we treat them is, you know, to a very high standard, it's gonna teach them to also do the same thing with their clients. And so it is a great multiplier effect. And that's really the reason we pour so much into a program like Client Ascension is to set the right standard, because it is really difficult in this industry to have that reputation of your scammers. You know, you're just here trying to make a quick buck or trying to be, you know, deceptive with your marketing, and that's just not us. It's.

Yeah, I don't know where that. I mean, I do know where that comes from, but it's like, I don't know what people. It's very similar in a lot of ways to the Bible. Right. It's like the people who criticize coaching programs have just never, like, participated in a good one. Exact same thing about people who, like. And this is probably not completely true, this one, but the people who are, I think, most critical, the Bible, usually are, like, the least well versed in terms of, like, what it says.

Of course. Yeah. Like, once you go and read it, you can't deny it unless you just completely look away from it. And that's. That's the beauty of it, is if you're actually willing to dive in and read it and apply it to your life, you'll. You'll know is really it.

Exactly. With your podcast, you mentioned that. I mean, one that you just, like, love podcasts as a medium. In what ways? Maybe, you know, you can refer to Stick Tok specifically or kind of your whole arc. Like, how has podcasting being a part of, like, your life rhythm it's kind of what I call it. Right. It's like, because for me, it's not my primary business. It's just like a part of my life is like, I try to ensure that, like I'm doing enough interviews such that I'm capable of publishing one a week.

Yeah.

And like that's just kind of like a habit. Just like something that, you know, you get a haircut every couple of weeks. Yeah. It's like I get to do a podcast every week or something. Like I decided was part of my life. What have been some of the benefits for you of doing that?

So many. Number one, just speaking skills, especially doing in person podcasts. It's so much more difficult than doing it on zoom. And you, you know this just from experience. But speaking skills, like being able to hold a conversation while the cameras are on you for an hour to two hours with someone that you're probably just meeting for the first time or have never spok to for this long before. Number two, just I. It's also still speaking skills in a sense, but it's just like likability. If you learn to conduct conversations in the way where you're more interested in what that person has to say instead of more interested in saying what you want to say, you're just gonna, you're gonna attract more high quality people into your life and you're training yourself to have conversations in that way. And it shows up in conversations outside of the podcast as well, which has, you know, extreme benefits. Number three, content. Again, I'm not gonna sit in front of my computer all day and record YouTube videos and short form content because I'm building businesses. And so podcasting in a way for me is a way to like really quickly, in one hour, get a bunch of short form, a bunch of long form of things that I've been working on for a very long time. Right. Like this podcast is one of the first podcasts I've been on since I've built Lizkit for the past three or four months. Right. And so there's a lot to talk about there that has just really been bottled up. And then number four, connections and network, that's really number one. Right. Like all of them are tied for number one. There's so many benefits. I could sit here for the rest of the time and talk on the benefits of podcasting, but the connection you get from again, being an interviewer of someone and asking them questions that they've been waiting to share the answers to for a very long time, you're doing Them such a favor to the point where they automatically and already know like, and trust you, to the point where they want to do business with you. They'll come to your events and be a keynote speaker without pay. They'll do really anything for you. And it's very genuine. It's not like a, oh, get them on your podcast so that they will soon become a client. It's like that's not even really. That's not the intention ever, but it's just the outcome. A lot of the times and sometimes.

As we've discussed, the opposite happens. You have someone and then you end up buying from them. That's happened to me a bunch of times.

But that's great.

We're funny.

That's great as well. Right. Because why do you buy in the first place? It's because you know it's something you want or need. Yeah, yeah. But you want to have known of that perceived value. Unless you had someone on the podcast to really sit there and talk about it.

Exactly.

And so some people might look at that as a negative. Oh, like if I start a podcast, I'll start buying a bunch of coaching programs and products of the people I interview. Maybe you should. Right, yeah.

Where do you see kind of everything building long term? If you've thought like super long term. Yeah, because like, do you want to just become massive in the, like marketing and teaching, you know, mentoring young business owners or those just businesses to give you cash to then go do something else, like in a different direction? And when I say long term, let's say like maybe like 10 to 20 years, not like 50 years.

Yeah. So like let's just kind of go through each of the businesses again. Right. So List Kit is to build wealth. So really simple there. Clear outcome is we want to exit in the next five years, let's say for a couple hundred million dollars. Because we know that is fully within our capabilities just looking at the rest of the market in our competition and what they've been able to accomplish. So List Kit, big exit number one. Number two with Client Ascension. The goal ever since we started Client Ascension is to become the gold standard for online education for entrepreneurs. And that started back when Christian and I started Real Talk University. The tagline for that show was education outside of the classroom. And so we've always had this bigger vision to create education outside of, you know, the walls of the classroom and universities. And Client Ascension is the full scale version of that. And so where we want to take Client Ascension is just scale it as far as possible, bring in more expert coaches, Bring in more resources for the existing students. Bring in students. There's so much we could do there with just education, serving different business models, potentially serving different business models. I mean, there's just so much we can do there, but really, to create a community for. For guys like ourselves. Why. Why do you see so many people on Twitter and on the Internet repping Client Ascension after our event? It's because it's something that they truly identify with and believe in. And that's why, like our merchant, it resembles that of a university, is because that's how we see ourselves. So we want to compete with Harvard. We want to compete with all the top business schools in the world as an alternative. And it's so funny, because the way we've built Client Ascension, we've just looked at what these universities do really well and have done the same thing. Like, that's it. Like, one of the best things.

Yeah.

One of the best things we did for Client Ascension this year that completely transformed the value that students receive is we implemented a role that is called student success coach. So when someone joins our coaching program, they get assigned a dedicated student success coach who is an expert in all of the Client Ascension teachings, and they're also an expert at holding students accountable. And it's the same exact thing as a guidance counselor. When you go to college, you get assigned a guidance counselor that kind of looks at your greater vision of what you want to accomplish in your four years here and builds all the classes with you, your schedule of all the classes you need to take each semester. And then if you're, you know, feeling down or have questions or lack clarity, you can go to the guidance counselor at any time and have a conversation. And same thing that student success coaches do. Another one is. Is just having classes every single day. Right. Like, I look at the live coaching calls as classes that people should attend every single day with different expert instructors. And so there's so many, you know, layers to it, but those are some really big examples. And then the podcast is just something that. Who knows where it's gonna go? But I'm more of an inputs guy. Like, I'm writing a tweet right now because it's one year since we started the podcast. We've done, you know, over. We've done an episode every single week, so over 50 episodes. And we've put up 963 videos on our YouTube channel. And so if we could do the same thing for the next year, 50 more interviews, 963 more videos, the Subscribers, the views, the watch time, all that will take care of itself. So really, all we're focused on is bringing on guests that we actually care to interview. Kind of like the Joe Rogan approach. He just brings on people that he wants to talk to. And that's the approach we're taking with the podcast. It'd be great to get it to the point where we could get on guys like Patrick Bet David, because those are guys we really want to talk to. But for now, we're talking to, you know, a lot of interesting people that are helping, you know, us develop the other businesses that we're involved in. And then there's another thing as well that's a recent development which is going back to like, my culture of my dad being from Lebanon, which is like a really big topic for me. So the last six or seven hires in both Lizkit and Client Ascension have been people that are from Lebanon. And the situation in Lebanon is super interesting right now because it's an economic crisis, but the quality of talent there is very, very high. And so it's created like this gap where Lebanese people are not making as much money, but the level of talent has stayed the same or has gone up. And then businesses in the US has created that gap, similar to what you've seen in places like Ukraine.

Yeah, I had Kylon like a week ago.

Really?

Yeah, I haven't published it yet, but.

Yeah, so it's created that same opportunity. And I'm just super passionate about Lebanon because I have a bunch of family there and I've seen, you know, what they've gone through and also their work ethic. And so I've, I've, you know, got a couple of plans that, to help businesses here capitalize on that. And also people in Lebanon get out of, you know, their current work, like working at restaurants, 40, 50, 60 hours a week, making $200 a month. Right. When they could be doing, you know, VA work for an online business and making 4x that in half the amount of time. It's pretty exciting.

That is interesting. I mean, we've seen a lot of people kind of follow that model successfully, like Kyle from Ukraine. And the only questions I have there, right. Having, knowing very little about Lebanon is like English and Internet pretty good, very solid.

The English is similar to mine. I still have like that Lebanese accent of just like broken English in a way. I'm not the best speaker. And theirs is the same. And then the Internet, it's similar to really any third world country. It's spotty. But the Right. People like, they have the access to it with the right capital. And so if they're hired by a US business, you pay a couple dollars a month to get them access to a hotspot on their phone. They can get a great connection from anywhere. So we haven't had any issues with connectivity just because it's part of, you know, our compensation plan.

I'm excited to see how that progresses. That's really cool.

Yeah, it's awesome, man. I mean, I was there this summer, one of the student success coaches, the role that I was talking about, inclined Ascension. He's from Lebanon and he's one of our most successful hires ever. And his brother also is the one who manages the Client Ascension Twitter account. Oh, nice. And so, like, that's a great example. Right.

Because he stepped it up recently.

Ever since we've brought him on, because I was managing it before, I don't.

Have a lot of time frequencies going on the frequency. Yeah.

And not just the frequency, but the humor's been good. The actual humor. And this is the best case study for Lebanese talent. This is a guy in Lebanon that is tweeting from the Client Ascension account that has such accuracy and understanding of not only Client Ascension culture, but just general American culture.

Yeah.

And so, like, that's someone from Lebanon. And so that just shows like, I don't know, I'd be hard pressed to find someone in Ukraine or Eastern Europe or the Philippines who can play that role to the same level. And so their culture, they just. They're the most assimilated with US culture from any of the other countries that you can staff, you know, vas from for cheap.

Yeah, that's interesting. Definitely gonna see. When you launch something in that, like, arena to help other people, you kind of, again, you develop the playbook and help other people hire people from Stick tok this year. You know, you've had a lot of cool people. You had no code. Alex, who has been on the show, I don't know if we've actually had any other overlap besides him. I like Nick. Nick Verge. That's good point.

Yeah.

Yep. Yourself now. But what have been some of the recent best learnings or like takeaways or big like breakthrough moments from something interesting? Someone came on the show and said something interesting this year.

Bailey as well, from the podcast.

I haven't had Bailey on, but I think he's.

Yeah, Bailey was great. I mean, his story of how he.

Got that job is crazy.

Got the job with Andrew Tate is. Is. Yeah. Remarkable. And the biggest takeaway from Bailey's episode is he's just a great dude, right? Like, he's a great dude that saw an opportunity and did everything in his power to capitalize on it. And that's it. Like, he's got a great skill set as well, of being.

What's the short version of that story for people who.

The short version of how Bailey started working with Andrew Tate is he's a video guy. He's been super talented with videos an entire life. And Andrew basically was doing events all throughout the US at the time, like conferences, business conferences, and he was always looking for people to come to the conference and record. And so Bailey did a couple of them. Nothing really big happened there. And then after the events, he saw an opportunity to just go and be with Andrew, to record, like the war room, all the different things that he was working on. And so he did a video pitch. He sat down and recorded a 60 second video pitch to Andrew as to why he should hire Bailey to be his videographer. But the thing is, he didn't just send it to Andrew. He sent it to everyone affiliated with Andrew. His brother, his lawyer, his cousin, his sister. Everyone in his circle is attorney. And so that video got sent to everyone associated with Andrew Tate, and it was a very good video with a very good pitch. It made its way to Andrew and he said, look, like, fly out to. I forget where he was staying in, like, Columbia or something at the time, and we'll talk. And so, like, he just flew out to Colombia. And this was during COVID when, like, the restrictions on travel were very intense and like, it was a big risk, but he took the risk, flew there, proved his value, and ended up working with him and then took some time off after all the things that happened, and then flew back and now he's living full time with him in Romania as his third brother, essentially. Yeah, he's a great guy. But again, biggest takeaway is perfect your craft. Like, get really good at one thing that is valuable to other people. And then once an opportunity presents itself, do everything in your power to capitalize on it. And then number three, just be a good person. Those were my biggest takeaways from Bailey's episode. And I'm trying to think from. From other people. We've had on the podcast, we. We did one with Tai Lopez, which was really cool for us because I grew up watching Tai Lopez. SMMA was like the first online course I've ever purchased. And it was really cool to hear his story because everyone was asking the same question for the past two Years, like, what happened to this guy? Like, where'd you go? And so that was really cool to be one of the first people to sit across from him and ask him, like, where did you go? Why did you go away? What's happening now? What are you working on? But his framework of how he thinks about life as like, it's not just business and finances, but it's also, you know, relationships. It's also your health, living a well balanced life. That was a huge takeaway. It's just a reminder again to double down on all the different things. Client ascension for fulfillment and purpose and community list kit for building wealth, stick talk for having a lot of fun, families. You know, something super important to me. Faith is something that's super important to me. And so that's helped me to really round out all the things that I have going on.

I love that. And really quick, it's funny, you know, you kind of like on video here, reference, like picking up your phone. I've seen like Bailey's application video because he put on Twitter. It's like, that was a crazy high quality. Like it was not just a, it wasn't a self, it wasn't just a selfie video. Being like, I like you entertain. Can it work for you?

Yeah, well, if you're pitching someone on video, sir, that's a good point. The video itself has to be really good.

So long term, what do you think about cold email as like the viable long term? Because, you know, a lot of people think it's spammy and obviously the platforms themselves do a lot of things to like, limit how much volume you can send and restrict you from just kind of doing unfettered and same thing with podcasts. Right. A lot of people say there's too many podcasts, there's too many cold emails and you're building a lot of your, you know, long term career on those two premises. What do you think about, like, what do you say to those people?

A lot of people say a lot of things.

Good point.

You could say there's too many podcasts, but you know what, no one's forcing you to listen to them. Yeah, right. It's just more options for you to choose from which as someone in the marketplace, like, that's what you want. Right. And always the quality is going to rise to the top and it's also going to be what sticks around the longest. So that's the first thing to know when it comes to cold email. There's obviously more to talk about there for the two or three years that we've been doing cold email. A lot has changed in terms of, like, the regulations, the software, the sending platforms. There's big changes happening right now with Google and Gmail, which is like the primary service you use to send emails from. That's causing people to pivot to Microsoft and Outlook. But it's capitalism. At the end of the day. I don't think an outreach mechanism such as cold email will ever go away, but it will continue to change. And as it changes, more and more people, they fall out of it because they think, oh, no, you know, apocalypse, it's dead. Cold email is dead, bro. I'd sit on here for an hour and preach that cold email is dead because it benefit my business. But everyone has an agenda. When you really think of it. Everyone is saying something mostly for their own benefit. And so when you hear someone say cold emails dead, it's usually followed up by a pitch on why they need to be creating content or why they need to be, you know, scaling Twitter, DMs, or. Yeah, exactly. Something different. And the way I look at it, and this is something I learned from Taylor Welch, so shout out to Taylor. The most successful businesses have a diversified portfolio of where they drive traffic from. And you look at paid ads, you look at content and social media, you look at Outbound, which is not just in the form of cold email, but also, like you said, DMs, cold calling other mechanisms, and then partnerships through affiliates, through podcasting, through whatever else it might be. And always the easiest, cheapest and most effective is Outbound for anyone to get started with. And that's what saved our business and helped our business get off the ground in the beginning and so many more. And then the other thing that is so important to mention is like, Hormozy, right? Like, people will listen to Hormozi more than they will to me. So go read his book and read about how having an Outbound channel for gym launch increased the exit value by like 10x. Outbound is the highest multiple out of all the different areas you could focus on for acquisition, because it's just a machine that anyone can plug and play with, whereas content, like, you can't plug and play Hormozy's content.

Hormozy, yeah.

And same with partnerships. People want to partner with Horror Mosey more than they want to partner with whoever, you know, acquires his business and is new to the job. But Outbound never changes. And so I look at Outbound as it's not the sexiest. It's going to probably be the one that you have to jump through the most hoops for, especially as regulations continue to roll in. But it's the highest exit value. And so you want to have outbound, but you also want to have all the other things. It's not one or the other, which is where most people make the mistake.

You have said several times here the importance of perfecting your craft. What is, what do you consider your craft to be?

Dude, that's a great question. I think my craft and all of the businesses is leadership, in a sense. And that was the biggest breakthrough that I had working with Mario because I was always solopreneur. Like, I thought I was the best person to do all the different functions of the business. And that's what limited my growth and potential for so long. And so when I say leadership, it's just continuing to find. Well, first off, it's starting with the vision of like, what are we actually trying to build, right? So we talked a lot on this podcast about where things are going. So I know I want to exit Liskit, kind of backtrack all the steps we need to get there. All the steps require skill sets and experiences that I myself don't have. And so my craft that I want to perfect is finding and attracting a players, having the hiring process dialed in, having the onboarding process dialed in, and having the management and leadership practice dialed in. One of the biggest compliments we get all the time about Client Ascension is how strong our culture is there amongst the team that works for us. And that's like one of my most proud accomplishments. And it's something that we're still continuing to work on. But my craft, I think is. Is hiring and attracting a players to build the greater vision. And one of the reasons I love Patrick bet David is because he taught me the greatest lesson in that arena, which is leaders have to cast a big enough vision that excites people but also allows those people. Like for example, Nick Verge, right, He's. He's on the Client Ascension team, but as a standalone entrepreneur, he's one of the most impressive you'll come across in our space. But he's also on the Client Ascension team because we've casted a vision big enough to where his vision of helping people with VSLs and copywriting can fit within that umbrella. And so that's what leadership really is, is casting a big enough vision that can attract a players to have their visions also fit into that umbrella and come to fruition. So I guess that's my craft is leadership and building team is probably the better way to say it.

I mean, I think it's an important and difficult skill. It's definitely craft, right? Yeah. I think that's a great answer you mentioned with Tai Lopez and kind of not just business. I think we've pretty much. I mean, we've talked about faith a little bit on this podcast and some other things, but we haven't talked about fitness. Are you still running a mile a day or did that challenge come to a close?

Yeah, so I ran a mile a day for like 280some days, and it was a great challenge because it's just one of those things, you wake up and it's the last thing you want to do, but you go do it anyways. And so it definitely built resilience and mindset more than anything else. But the reason I started it was not for mindset and resilience, it was for fitness. And I just was uneducated and unaware of what actually promotes fitness. And so once I started to see that it's not getting me anywhere, I had to pivot. And then I joined the default Kings program, which is more of like, you know, a fitness led program where you're on a strict diet, you're hitting the gym every couple of days, and that, as soon as I joined, has transformed. You know, where I'm at with my health and fitness compared to running? Yeah. 283 days of a mile a day. And it's been a lot easier too, you know?

Well, it's like you pick something that's kind of stupid and obvious and you do it and it gets you somewhere and then you're like, okay, I'm far enough to actually pick a better strategy now.

Yeah. So I'm, you know, super grateful for those guys because just like, if I were new to cold email, like, I'd go to the guys that really know the ins and outs of cold email, because there are people probably sending, like, I was running a mile a day, they're probably sending 10 cold DMs or 10 cold emails a day, but just doing it the wrong way. And if they were to just understand the right way to do it in the ins and outs of the people that have done it successfully, they could get the same amount of results and transformation in such a shorter time period.

Yeah, they're putting in effort, but it's like bad effort.

Yeah. The work is working on them. It's not working for them.

Exactly.

Yeah.

What is some of the mental game. Not that you're doing now, because I Think it's a very different mental game. But like the mental game early on when you're like first kind of starting out, like you said, you're doing the podcast, you didn't have a specific business venture that you knew what to do. So you're like, let me just do something that seems useful and then something else will come into place later. So kind of in those days, what did you do for your mental game to like, kind of stay motivated to keep your belief high?

Yeah, the podcast in itself really served that purpose because you're talking to people that are in a position that we eventually want to be in and they're telling us, stay patient in the beginning is very difficult. Things aren't going to make a lot of sense right away. Right. And it even goes back to like the Bible and faith. Like these are all concepts and practices that are taught in the Bible. Like as soon as you pursue something, you're going to be met right away with failure and with challenges and with pressure. And so that's validation that you're on the right path a lot of the times. And so for me, it was just a patience game and keeping myself busy with interviewing other founders to see where they're at and how they got there and just really perfecting my craft and my skill set so that once the opportunity was there, I was ready for it. And so it's just a patience game. Like in the beginning, the most difficult thing was to continue doing the things we were doing because the results weren't showing up right away. And so my biggest advice to entrepreneurs now is to understand this concept of inputs over outputs. Focus on the things. And that's what I said about stick talk. It's nowhere near where I think it should be right now in terms of numbers of views, subscribers, all the metrics that people see on the outside. But I could be really proud of the fact that We've released over 50 interviews, high quality in person interviews, and.

We'Ve posted production value is very high.

The production value is high and we've posted over 960 videos on our YouTube channel. Those are inputs and the outputs are not, you know, what we want them to be yet. But I understand that outputs have a great lag period and if we continue to do the inputs, eventually the outputs will be there, but the outputs aren't for me to control anyways. That's also what goes back to faith. Like, who am I to decide if someone is going to subscribe or not? It's not in my control as much as I want it to be. And as soon as you can give up that control and just obsess over the inputs. What's a great interview we could do this week? How many new YouTube videos could we put out this week? Everything else, you know, let the chips fall where they may.

And you don't put the like student success interviews on. That's on your channel. Not on this tick tock.

That's on my YouTube channel. Yeah. So even more videos that are going out, you know, so a lot of content.

Yeah. On our channel this year. I mean, I think I was inclined essentially, I talked about it, right. We had like, we went from like 600 subscribers to 9,000 and like a six week period or something. So it's like you just having the volume helps.

Yeah. I mean one of the things that gravitated me towards Daniel in the early days is he said something that is very in line with the inputs over outputs game, which is nothing happens for the longest time and then everything happens all at once. And that's really how it is. It's like when it rains, it pours. And you don't understand the power of that concept until you actually experience it.

What looking back on this year, what is like one big lesson from this year that you're applying to next year?

That's a great question. I think it's really doubling down on, on people because again, like I've been in the entrepreneurship game for four or five years, actually seven years. If we go back to like when I was 16 years old flipping sneakers and running sneaker bots on the Internet.

Isn't your brother still doing shoes?

Yeah, he took after me. He's took it to a whole new level for sure. But what prohibited me from experiencing growth and true success for the longest time, literally for five years, was my obsession over thinking that I had all the answers and I could do everything myself. As soon as I let go of that and when and started to work on this craft of finding and identifying talent that you know, how to place in these companies that I'm trying to build, everything changed. And I know for us to continue the growth next year, it's gotta be doubling down on people because there's a decision that has to happen. And this is something that Daniel and I talked about extensively when we were deciding to partner. Daniel could have continued with Cold Email wizard as a brand, as, you know, an info product and just scaled it maybe, you know, 10 to 100k a month consistently, no problem, no questions asked. Or he could choose the path of I want to build the biggest, most profound online education program for business owners and entrepreneurs in the world. That's going to require a lot of people, a lot of time, a lot of money, a lot of stress. And so there's two different visions. Do you want to be the solopreneur that kind of just, you know, keeps things pretty chill, or do you want to build, like, this really grand vision that encompasses a lot of people in their visions, and to me is the second option. And to Daniel, it was as well once the vision was pitched in the first place. And I just understand that the only way we get there is with more people.

What's the start here for finding you on the Internet?

Start here is really Twitter. That's where I'm most active. So it's just my name, Andre Heikle Jr. On Twitter. And, yeah, that's really it. It links out to my YouTube that I post on every so often. And then our podcast is talked about on there as well. And my Instagram, I'm kind of starting to get into more and more, but Twitter will always be the place I'm on as long as it's still the air, you know, Elon, yesterday in an interview was talking about how if. If Twitter dies, so be it, because the advertisers, he's like, well, if it dies because of the advertiser, so be it. I'm like, no, like, don't. Don't want to die.

Yeah. Well, definitely want to say thank you. I think you're inspiring role model for lots of young entrepreneurs and probably old entrepreneurs too, myself included. So just keep up all the great stuff. Appreciate your time today.

Appreciate it. Thanks for having me on, bro. Yeah, that was awesome.