Freedom To Define Success on Your Own Terms | Andre Haykal Jr.

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Thank you for having me. It's great to be with you as well. Yeah.

I got to apologize right off the bat, man. I do. Because a few years ago, I would say, probably, what, three years ago when you sent me that message asking to be on my podcast, I did not respect you. I kind of just. I went and just kind of like I never. And then. And then you messaged me a few other times over the Next few years. And I just never. I stopped answering. That was. That was where my ego was at that point. I, I, I, I almost took it as, like, offense, and I. Cause I didn't. I didn't respect you, man. I was like, who's this kid with these glasses? I'm like, what is this? You wrote this book? I wrote a book, you know, and. But now, man, I respect the heck out of you. I respect the heck out of your business. Really cool to see the Glow up. Over the last few years, I've had watched so many people our age, which, of course, you're my age, by the way. What are you, 24 as well?

22.

22, dude. Holy moly. Whoa. So you were like, 19 when you sent me that message? Dude, that's crazy. I had no idea you were that young.

Yeah, my goal back then was to write a book before I turned 20. I don't know why. It's just like.

Right? Yeah. So we're. We're both very interesting in that way. And I've talked with Nico, who's in the same boat. We write these books at such a young age before we've even achieved any modicum of success. And then we go to start doing it. Just a really weird order of operations. What are your. I don't even know what your book was about. What are your thoughts on the book at this point in time a few years later?

Yeah, it's so funny. It's just like I don't even know what's in there because I just learned so much between now and then. But the whole basis of the book, actually. So when I got to college, similar to you, I started a podcast, and that just helped me to, like, make connections in the space just being an online business. And so, like, we did over 100 interviews. And really the idea behind the book was just to put, like, all of my learnings from those interviews and written form. So that was the whole concept.

Gotcha. Like I was saying, a few of people in our circle, and we're in a similar circle where, you know, it's me, David Riggs, Jordan Ross, and all those types of people. Nico, have you had. Are you friends with Nico?

Yeah, Nico's great. Yeah. Cool.

Yeah. I've just watched Glow up over the last few years, you know, weren't that successful two, three years ago. But now, two, three years later, I. I look up to all of you. So it's good to be with you here today. And I. I'm what I want to do as I like to do with everyone is unpack that journey a little bit, what it's taken to get here and where you were a few years ago. So I think a good starting point and as I always say with everyone, I don't always know the most appropriate starting point, the best starting point, so we can go in a different direction, that's to say, if you wish. But I think for me, maybe the best starting point since I think your podcast was called Real Talk University, mine was Growth Mindset University.

Right.

I think the most appropriate starting point would probably be college. If you went, if you didn't, I don't know. Is that where your journey starts?

Really? It was a little bit before, just because unlike a lot of guys that I've talked to, at least I was born into like entrepreneurship, I always like to say, because like the two figures that I looked up to my entire life and still do were both entrepreneurs. And that was my dad, who was an immigrant from Lebanon, who just got into real estate as soon as he moved over to the US and was kind of self made and that, you know, niche. And then my grandpa and my mom's side was a small business owner who sold a bunch of different companies. So like growing up, I was just surrounded by two, like, very successful entrepreneurs. So my brain was, was kind of wired that way. Growing up in like a small town in upstate New York, I couldn't really relate to anyone else the way they thought because they didn't have like that entrepreneur drive. So by the time I got to college, that was like my first opportunity of like, okay, now I'm at a larger university, I'm gonna meet all students, I'm gonna find a bunch of people that think like me. And that still wasn't the case. So like, entrepreneurship, like for me at an early age is very lonely path because no one my age could really relate to the way that I was thinking and operating, if that makes sense. So that what's, that's what drove the podcast was like to just go outside of my backyard because I was just confined to this, again, small town in upstate New York my entire life and just have conversations with guys like yourself on the Internet to see, you know, what were their journeys. And that's really where, yeah, I got started.

Yeah. College is you're surrounded by people who are. Their number one goal is after college to get a job. Whereas I think with you and me, I'll speak for you a little bit here, correct me if I'm wrong. Our entire goal was to not get a job after college. Is that right?

Yeah, 100%. Like, my goal since I got to college was to have a business that can earn as much as I would have earned with like a typical job. So, yeah, yeah, I didn't, I didn't want to have to get a job.

Of course. So the early iterations of that, I mean, you've got the podcast. What are some of the early iterations of you making money on your own, AKA being free, not tied to a job?

Yeah, yeah. So through the podcast, it. I mean, I'm sure you can relate to this, but it just like opened up so many different doors. Not just through the connections that we were making by, like interviewing these guys, but also just through the learnings of like, what they did to get to where they're at. And a recurring theme for us was just the opportunity that is online. And so we did a lot of things online. We. I guess my first taste of entrepreneurship, like, or my first money online in this period of my life was as like a freelancer just doing different, like digital marketing gigs, building websites for other businesses, helping other people start their podcast, like really just getting, doing anything I could get my hands on. But my first, like, big success was with like a local business owner where they just wanted me to help them to grow on Instagram. So I took over their Instagram account and grew that for a few months and made really good money. And that was kind of like, I set the baseline for what was possible and opened up the door to a business where I would just go to tons of business owners and do that and bring in all my friends and whatnot. So it was really always like freelancing slash agency type businesses, which we're still in now.

We followed such similar journeys. I mean, books, I was 20, you were 19. Both being in a similar agency space right now. We've both done lead gen. I don't do Legion anymore. You still do. You're very successful with it. And then before that, you know, helping people with podcasts and building websites for people. It's kind of like a freelancer. I did all that stuff too. That's so funny that we've been on these, these parallel paths a little bit. You just. Two years younger, Very cool. So you see what's possible. I mean, what age is this? You start doing Instagram for this one local entrepreneur.

And I think this was right around 2021.

Gotcha. Okay, so really not that long ago.

No, I mean, like you said, like, really in like the past few years, really like people that we're all Connected with really just started to level up really quickly. But even before then, like a lot of other entrepreneurs, like I was into like film, flipping sneakers and doing things on the side, like to always like hustle and earn money. So like I was staying alive without like a full time job all throughout high school and college just by like flipping things on the side. And I still do that to this day. I just, it's just really, it's like a game for me. It's really fun. But like, the agency was the core business where it's like, okay, this is actually something legit where it kind of embodies what I've watched my grandpa and my dad build all my life, which was a cool feeling.

Yeah. Something I like is that you're super transparent with the whole process. So it looks like, I mean, we're talking, you know, middle of April and you've made like $397,000 from the business this year. But before that, you know, you're in Legion now before that and maybe even before that. So, you know, you're doing Instagram, doing like projects, websites, podcasts. Let's go in chronological order here. What happens after that?

Yeah, so like full transparency to continue on that path. The first gig I got was to manage like a local businessman's on Instagram and I was earning like fifteen hundred dollars a month. And that was like big money for me, of course, because it was like just one Instagram account is very much so part time. And it's like what I enjoy doing. And that was like my first realization of like, oh, wow, like I could get paid to do these things that I actually enjoy and I'm actually good at. And so that was like my first taste of it. And then so I went in and tried to find other people to pay me that amount of money, which was not so successful. So I kind of like plateaued at always around 2 to $3,000 a month as a freelancer. And for me as a college student, like that was more than enough. But as an entrepreneur, not even close. Right. I had higher ambitions, especially because I. Every single week I would connect with other entrepreneurs for my podcast and to see, you know, where they're at with their business and it would kind of create this sense of fomo. So I, I mean, I've had a lot of ups and downs, but one thing that I just recently was talking about on another podcast is once I got to college, my goal was to hit, for whatever reason, it was to hit $21,000 in monthly revenue by the Time I graduate. And I knew I was going to graduate in three years. So I set the goal on my whiteboard in my bedroom, like $21,000 a monthly revenue by May 2021. And I wanted to do that for an agency business, which I didn't even have at the time, but I just kind of found my way there. And funny enough, like, in May 2021, that was our first month hitting $21,000. I mean, we were actually there maybe four or five months before, but with that business, it wasn't really sustainable or scalable. So, like, it dipped down and we kind of rebuilt from there. But my goal always in college, was to have, like that revenue, $21,000 a month, which I could then like, basically say to myself, I'm making as much as I would if I were to go get one of those jobs that, you know, I have the opportunity to get with the skill sets I've built. So I've had a lot of ups and downs. And then from college, as soon as I got out of college, I'm sure you could relate to this or anyone listening. Like, as soon as you're done with school, it's like you now have all this time to work on the business. You don't have to multitask and be like a master of your schedule. And it just. It just rocketed from there, I think, just because of the time and focus I was able to put towards it.

Of course. Yeah, I would say for me, I, you know, graduated in May of 2020. April, May, June, July, August, September were like, all. And then November and December, like, it just kept going and the income kept going up and up and up. Just having that free time. And really just the. The headspace is the biggest thing because it's not like. And you probably didn't either. I didn't devote a ton of time towards school, but it still had to occupy some headspace. You still gotta, like, make sure that you're on track, right?

So, yeah, 100%. Not the focus.

Yeah, it's the uninterrupted focus now having that makes a big difference. So at that point, you're at 21. So just doing the quick math here. What is it? Like, you're probably at over 100 now, judging by what you've done up to this point so far in the year. What's the road to getting there look like?

Yeah, I mean, it's been about a year removed now. Clear. Not a full year, but close to a year removed from graduation last year. And I think it's just a culmination of things. Like you've probably seen this as well. Like you work so hard towards something for really long period of time and it doesn't really pay off for say three or four years. And then you finally get to like that point in your career where things just start to take off. And that's kind of what we've been experiencing. But I would also just say like the connections and the partnerships, like with you and David. Right. Like, that was a big taking off point. And same for me with some of the connections that we've made on Twitter. So I would actually say I wasn't even thinking about this, but Twitter has been life changing. So I actually got my start on LinkedIn. I always wanted to have some presence on social media, but I was never one to like multitask and do it all like Instagram and TikTok and LinkedIn. So I always stuck to one platform. I I built up decent on LinkedIn. I just didn't like the platform. I wasn't really posting content that I felt like I really aligned with. So I just brought everything to Twitter where it was more of like short form content, impulse, tweeting and just people like that. I could relate to a lot more than I could on LinkedIn, I guess more just like casual entrepreneurs or everyday entrepreneurs. And I just kind of built a base there and have made so many connections and partnerships, more importantly with guys that have been able to take our business to the next level through their networks and through their skill sets. So I put out a tweet yesterday, but it's like hire and partner with people that are smarter than you. That's like the biggest hack that discovered since graduating. Wow.

Yeah. So tell me, what are you doing with Twitter, man? Like, what is it? Just tweet and make friends. Like they build it and they will come. Like, what's your strategy? What are you doing? Tell me all about it. This episode is sponsored by Riverside fm. People always ask me, how do you get your podcast sounding so crisp and clean with well, Riverside FM is one of the best tools to get your podcast sounding super professional. It is the easiest way to record podcasts and videos in studio grade quality from anywhere in the world, all from your browser. So it's super simple too and at the same time has super advanced features like recording both audio and video locally as opposed to over the Internet. So the end result is that you and your guest sound like you're in the same room. So visit Riverside FM and use my code Jordan to start Recording studio quality sound and video, and get 15% off a membership plan. That's Riverside FM. Use code Jordan to get your podcast sounding crisp, clean and professional. We've got a very different kind of sponsor for this episode, and it's the Jordan Harbinger show, which is a podcast you really should be listening to. And I know that every day someone tells you you just have to listen to some podcasts, and you nod and you say, sure, and then you never really listen to it. Don't let that happen here. Jordan Harbinger was actually a guest on this show. I talked to him when he was just starting out the Jordan Harbinger Show. It went on to become a smash hit, like millions, millions, millions of downloads every single month. Apple named it one of its best podcasts in 2018, and two episodes that I listened to very early on that still, to this day, four years later, still stick out to me. One of them is episode number 28, James Fallon, how to Spot a Psychopath. And then episode number one, Frank Abagnale, Scam Me if youf Can. Frank Abagnale, if you recall, was the subject of the really great movie called Catch Me if youf Can. Look, plain and simple, supporting my sponsors helps me make this show for you as best as possible. If you go and download Jordan's show after hearing this ad, he'll continue shoveling money in our direction. So show the Jordan Harbinger show some love. Search for the Jordan Harbinger Show. That's H A R B I N G E R on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Castbox, or wherever you listen. Thank you for the support.

Yeah, so I actually started on Twitter. I mean, the account that I have now started last April, so about like, literally a year from now. But before that, I had an account where I was just tweeting randomly and there was no growth, no success, nothing for like two or three months. And I just deleted that account and gave up on Twitter for about a month until we went back. I think with Twitter, the strategy that I tell people at least is a few things. First, you have to kind of create a theme around your page, like, what do you want to be known for? So, like, for us at the time, it was really simple. Like, we just wanted to be the lead gen agency of our Twitter space. And because no one was really owning that in a way. So that was what we wanted to be known for. And then you set up your profile, run that, like your bio, your link in bio, stuff like that. All lines with who you want to be known For. And then from there, it's just coming up with, like, a theme for your page. So, like, you said, like, transparency. That was how we. Or how I set myself apart from everyone else on Twitter is just being really transparent and documenting the journey. And, like, anytime I meet people that I've met through Twitter in real life, like, they always talk about that. I was at an event in Miami this week, and some kid came up to me, and he's like, you're Andre, right? And I'm like, yeah. And he's like, dude, like, you inspired me to do this tweet format where I share document my journey every single week. And it's just helped me, like, to document my journey and learn things from it and reflect on it and. And to even grow. And it's just cool to hear things like that. So I think you have to do things a little unique and be known for something. And then from there, yeah, it's just consistent content that is valuable to other people in the space. So for us, we were just sharing all the different Legion strategies that work for our business and for our clients and, you know, just. Yeah, connecting behind the scenes, right in the DMs with bigger accounts and trying to earn their respect and leverage partnerships. And we did it the way we know best, as we started a podcast right away, and that was our way to get in with these bigger connections and establish really genuine relationships with them that led to, you know, retweets or them sharing our tweets or them following us. Simple things like that that, over time have built up to where I'm at now.

Yeah, I mean, you're growing rapidly on there. I've been monitoring it every time you do one of those tweets where you're like, oh, we achieved this. I'll show you how we did it. Just comment below must be following. Of course you get so much traction on it because what you're giving away actually has a ton of value. I mean, there's so many people that do that that just, you know, they get zero traction. Zero comments. Because nobody wants it. It's not. It's not valuable. I mean, you're. You've got the experience. You've been there, done that, and it's just like, I don't know, I can't think of an example right now of what you've given away, but it's like, just a thing that so many people who are following you want and freaking need to know. So every time you do that, I see your follower count, I go, look at it, you're probably at 12,000, maybe two weeks ago, and now you're at 14.3. Like, you're. You're gaining steam pretty quickly, man. So it's cool to see. I definitely want to get involved there, but at the same time, it just, I don't know, occupies headspace, takes away from my uninterrupted focus, and I'm just like, I'm not the content guy anymore. I mean, that's more. More of David's job at this point. You know, I'm not the content guy.

Yeah. You got to do what feels right.

To you, what aligns with you.

Yeah. Otherwise, what's the point of, like, you know, being an entrepreneur, working for yourself? It's just like, going back to. Yeah, you got it. You got to do what aligns with you. But, yeah, on Twitter, like, that was. Twitter is the social media platform that I use more than anything else. I just never. I always had, like, a private anon account that would just, you know, put random stuff out on Twitter and follow friends and stuff. So I was really familiar with Twitter and I liked the platform. I just never really saw the opportunity for business on there until just recently.

Mm. Reflecting on your journey, Andre, I mean, that's what we've been talking about largely over the last 10:15. You had a really good tweet that I would like to talk further about. In three years, my agency could easily be worth eight figures. This wouldn't be possible if I bounced to new opportunities every three months. Talk to me a little bit more about that.

Yeah, I think the latter part of that tweet is kind of what stumped me or kept me away from success throughout my college years, in a way, is I was, like, very curious. So I would always try new things, especially when something didn't work as I thought it would or wanted it to within the first few months. And, you know, I. I don't regret that by any means, because it opened up the doors to a lot of different opportunities and learnings. But, like, if I were to go back, I would have just stuck to one thing and saw it all the way through. Like, I've done with this lead gen agency for, you know, a year and a half now. It's the longest that I've been tied to any one business, and it's the most successful, which is, you know, it's very obvious why, like, there's a correlation behind that. And of course, like, there's scenarios where, like, I was building a business that it was very clear, like, didn't have any future potential, so I dropped it. But there were a lot that I kind of used that same excuse with to just pivot to something that seemed cooler or more modern or easier. Right. And so yeah, I feel like with any business though, like once you get really deep into the weeds, like with managing clients and operating on a day to day, like, there's always going to be challenges and difficulties and as soon as you see a new idea, you don't really think that far. So it's almost like I'm kind of struggling with what I'm doing now. Let's just jump to this new opportunity because it's going to be easier and I'm not going to have to deal with clients and I'm not going to have to deal with fulfill on this really complex offer, whatever you might be dealing with at the time. And every time I've jumped to a new business, I feel like with anything that's worthwhile, there's going to be some form of resistance or it's not going to be easy. Never. Never. Yeah.

It's so easy to fall for the allure of, oh, it seems easier on the surface, it does. But you're not in the weeds yet. You don't know the challenges that are going to pop up. You don't know the bad parts about that business yet. But you will find out and you may just switch to another thing that you think is easier. I mean, did I've done that so many times? If I could go back, I would say one of my big mistakes was switching out of web design and development when I was like, I don't know, 20, 21. It was a good business man. And you know, it could have been like David's business Pneuma, you know, seven figures. But at the first hard client I had, I said, all right, I'm never doing it again. The first sign of resistance, I just threw in the towel. I had no experience with a hard client or really resistance of any kind in business at that point. So sadly threw in the talent and definitely should not have, for sure. But with lead generation where you're at now, I'm curious, what did that look like at 1, 2, 3 months in? Were there challenges where if you were where you could have easily moved on or was this so aligned with you that they're just, yeah, those things.

So like through everything I've done in the past, Legion and marketing were the things that I actually enjoyed doing and we're actually good at. So it's kind of like we've done a bunch of businesses, and through each of those businesses, the one thing that always worked was the Legion aspect and sales. So instead of just doing another business, we were just like, let's just offer that to other businesses. So it really aligned with our experience up to that point. But man, I mean, you can relate to it since you were in Legiona at some point. And it's tough like Legion, especially through like cold email and LinkedIn. Like, there's all these automations that are involved and the LinkedIn and email are always making changes to try to prevent it. And it's when it gets to like, the tech stuff that you don't really have full control over, it can really ruin the fun. And we've experienced that a bunch with bleachen. And one thing that we learned early on because we in the beginning, like, we tried to be like this omnichannel, like fully automated, like, you know, crazy solution to Legion that sounded really cool, but it was so complex and it didn't really work. So what we've found, like, through all of our pivots over time within this agency is to continue to simplify. Continue to simplify and really just focus on one thing. So now we just focus on sending emails and that's it. We don't do LinkedIn, we don't do ads, we don't do Twitter, whatever. It's just send emails and if they want more leads, send more emails. And we've simplified it down to that. And that still presents its challenges because emails don't get delivered, domains get burned, offers don't convert. Right. Like, there's all these, these challenges that will service regardless of what you choose to do. But yeah, the iterations we've made, it's always to simplify. But there are times for sure. Like, we even pivoted our offer. We started as like a performance agency where we would only get paid per. Per call booked. And that was great all the way up until like, we hit like real resistance at like $30,000 a month. And the resistance was with fulfillment of, like, we couldn't realistically continue to fulfill this offer at this scale. And obviously we had ambitions to scale further with the amount of work that we were putting in. So we completely scrapped that side of the business. Like dropped all of those clients, so literally went from 30 to 0 and to build it back up with a new offer. Um, and I think agency businesses, like, that's not uncommon to do, which is just to pivot your offer. Just don't pivot completely away from what you're doing. I put out a tweet the other day around this as well. It's like your offer is going to evolve based on feedback. Right. It's never going to be perfect. Like, it's always going to be changing. And like, as a business owner, just don't resist the change. Just continue to listen to feedback and optimize your offer. But don't completely pivot the business unless you have really good reason to.

Yeah, evolution. Someone who's really good at that is Nico. He's pivoted like eight times within just lead generation. It's amazing. I was talking to him like two days ago and he's like, all right, now we're doing this. And I'm like, oh, shoot. All right, cool. You know, it's another lead gen offer. It's just crazy. But I commend him and I commend you for weathering the lead gen challenge storm. I know that lead gen is definitely not easy and I do commend you for weathering that storm. But at the end of the day, there are challenges and these are the challenges you choose. You're sticking with these, you're committed to them. You think that these are better, more fulfilling challenges than challenges in another business. If you were to completely stop this and start something else.

Yep. Yeah, I feel like one of the things too that's worth mentioning, it's like I work with two other like equity partners in the agency. So like I really choose what I want to do as well within the agency. Like I don't do any sales calls. I don't do any of like this, the marketing and content side. Like, I just focus on operations and fulfillment, which is very similar to like what you and David are doing now, the new business. And that's where I get like all my enjoyment is just like operating the business on a day to day. I don't get enjoyment from doing sales calls, so I don't do them. And I feel like, you know, that's one thing people don't really think about. Which I also commend you and David for doing is just partner again with people that can fill roles in the business that either you're not good at or just don't have any interest in doing.

Yeah, find a who to figure out the how. Who, not how's a good book by Dr. Benjamin Hardy and Dan Sullivan. And that's why, you know, this conversation that we're having now, it's why it's so great, such a luxury, so important, I would say very important to Have a co founder so that you can stay in flow with the type of tasks that you enjoy doing and can get in flow with, like you and I can't get in flow sales calls. Like, that's just not really possible. There are areas of the business where they're just not suited for us. And that's where having an equity partner or co founders, whatever you want to call it, is so important and can really help out and prevent you from getting burnt out and pivoting to another thing. Right. So I think a lot of the problem in my past failures has been just trying to go it alone. David's my first co founder and it's just life changing, not because of David, but because it's a co founder who can own certain deliverables that I just fucking hate doing. And I can stay in flow with what I enjoy doing, which for both of us is operations and systems and all that sort of stuff. So really important co founders. Let's talk. Let's wrap up with a conversation, Andre, about finding the thing that you like and are good at. What has that journey been like? I'm sure you've done things that you didn't like and or weren't good at.

Oh, definitely, yeah. And I feel like my biggest advantage was starting at an early age because I don't think it's something that you can just like set a goal for. It's like, I'm gonna find what I'm good at and what I like doing, like, next week. And like, I feel like there's a lot of experience and unknowns that come with that journey. And it's just like finding your passion essentially. Like, the common advice there is to just go and try and like, just see what it is you actually enjoy doing and are good at, because you most likely don't know until you try. Funny enough though, like, growing up, like, I was always big into, I say this always now, like building Legos and like solving puzzles and stuff like that. And that very much relates to, like my day to day now, which is like solving problems in the business, connecting different apps and technology tools together to build automations and workflows. And that's where I get a lot of, like, my joy and excitement in the business. And that's something that I didn't even think about until recently is like, that's what I grew up doing. And I love that stuff. And I wouldn't have necessarily found that if I didn't come across agency businesses and Twitter and automations and getting to different parts of where we're at now, but like right out of college or right out of high school. Sorry. I got a sales job because I. Everyone that I talked to was like, yeah, you need to know how to sell. Sales is like a key skill set to build businesses. So I went and got a sales job thinking that I. I needed it to become a successful entrepreneur. And I got pretty decent at sales. I just did not enjoy doing it at all. So, not, I wouldn't say my biggest learning from that job was the sales skill set. It was the fact that I didn't enjoy sales in general and that I needed to find someone that was good at it to do that for whatever venture I would take on next. So, like, yeah, if you want to find what you're good at and what you enjoy doing, just try a bunch of different things. Like, and with. It's really simple from what I've seen in businesses. It's. You have to generate interest or traffic, which consists of like copywriting, video creation, content creation, just like a create. If you're a creative person, that might be more for you. Then there's sales of like, you're hungry, competitive. Maybe, like, you have history of being like an athlete. That could be very much for you. And then there's fulfillment in operations. So if you're more of like a techie person or behind the scenes, like operator, like likes to solve puzzles type of person, then that can really be for you because all businesses need to, you know, generate traffic, close traffic, and deliver on traffic. And that's what I've really simplified it down to.

Agreed. Ndrejcal junior on Twitter. Andre Heikow junior on LinkedIn. Hit him up. Andre, thanks so much.

Thank you, Jordan. Always a pleasure.