8 Seconds of Oneness — Joe Hudson’s Story (Part II)

Welcome to The Art of Accomplishment, where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease. In our last episode, we began by exploring Joe's childhood and family life. We now continue with the second half of that conversation, getting into how Joe encountered many of the concepts and tools we talk about in the podcast and incorporate into the courses. Please enjoy. So how did, how did your relationship to that sort of that heroin hit moment of those 8 seconds of oneness shift over, over all this period of time? Like, I'm hearing you now describe that you got into all this work and you did like Hoffman Process and everything you could find, just seeing what tools worked for people and trying them. But what, what was, what was your relationship to the, to the goal or goallessness of your search, and how was that shifting?

Yeah, so there was like, so my mind, it was like, there was, there was, I, the main drive was I'm not good enough, and if I'm awake, if I'm awake like that, I'll be good enough all the time. Like, that was kind of the thought process. And, and so my, a lot of my work center, and because I was very head-driven, I, a lot of my work centered on awakening through like non-dual meditation. And so I'd say half of it was really deeply in that, was deeply entrenched in that. And so it started— what it just did was it filed down the fight in me over time. The more I meditated, the less I was fighting with myself. And so it went from like, I have to do this and I'm not good enough, to And, and in that, more big experiences happened, and then I stopped chasing them as much, and they were just like this, you know, they would have— they would occur, and, and I would do this emotional work kind of on the side. And, and so my relationship, it just became— it's— it still was like, it was deeply important. Like, I— somewhere early on in like the first year or two, this— the thought occurred to me, like, what am I? And I would ask that question some version of that question fucking 10, 20 times a day for shit. It was like 6 or 7 years, you know, or 5 years, at least 6 years probably. And it was just like I would ask that question all the time. Like I was constantly, you know, and I was like settling my nervous system from this place of my— of I'm not safe, which is, you know, what I learned as a child. And so that was happening and that never particularly quit, but it just became, the search became less and less compulsive, but it was always there. And then I had a meditation retreat where I can't even remember how old I was, but I was in my 30s, I think 37 to 38 or something like that. I was at a meditation retreat and I was in the bathroom, and I— this is that place that I really hesitate to talk about, um, but I, I was, I was peeing, and I, and I immediately, and I immediately had the, this thought that said, oh, I'm like— the answer to I am was answered. It wasn't answered in a— the thought was I'm that, but that, I mean, that's fucking nonsensical. It was just a recognition that that place that I had touched all those years ago was what I was. And there was just like, there was no doubt in it. And then the second part, thing that happened immediately after that was, um, was, and this never ends, that the evolution— the thought was this, the evolution never ends. And, and that's where I think all that work for those 8 years was paid off so well, was because I've seen people get stuck for 10 years thinking that they're at an end and they're just They're just another form of avoidance and self-definition. So I was very lucky that way. And then the relationship changed even more. So at that point, I didn't even know what the fuck. I was like, another big experience, who gives a fuck? I'm still in this thing. And it was like 3 months later, I noticed, I'm like, wow, the voice in the head is kind of gone. Like, I didn't even notice, like the critical negative voice in the head was mostly gone that the fight was mostly gone, that the editor, the one that was telling me about my experience, was gone. I hardly noticed it. And then I was with Case at some point, and he was talking about his awakening, and I was like, "Oh, I was searching that for a long time," and then recognized, "Oh shit, that actually happened to me," and I just started laughing. I just started laughing hysterically. And that was like the recognition that the awakening that I had looked for had happened, and I heard, and I didn't even notice it, and which is really a strange thing. And then I started to define myself by it, as Kase did actually. And then there was like this whole world of people that opened up that were in that thing of like, oh, we are people who are— have had this awakening experience, or, you know, and which is in itself ridiculous. And so, so I— there's a time when I defined myself in that, and that I identified with it, even though it was very subtle. Maybe even in some ways very subtly put myself above people in it. And then, um, just very slowly, very slowly over time, that just— I was like, the whole idea of awakening or all of it just became very unimportant to me. Like That it's like, it's so like, it's like hair color, you know? So, so what's in, you know, and, and it is important. I understand that like, because my, my system works that way, like there's a lot more ease in my system. There's like, like my emotional fluidity was easier for me to capture because I didn't have the story. There's a lot of benefit to it and Like, and it's like, to me it's just natural. It happens to everybody. If you, if you just keep evolving, it's gonna happen. It doesn't fucking matter, and it doesn't make you special or better or different. And so that's, that's, that's the way it sits now. Now it's like background. I don't even notice. But if I end up, if I'm ever asked, I could— there's no place, there's no time when I don't feel like I'm part of that. That's the way I would describe it.

Yeah, there's a lot of really interesting jumping off points here. One is that you mentioned that, you know, you developed the identity of the awakened one or something, and then you were putting yourself above people. I'm curious, to what extent is it possible to be experiencing that oneness and put yourself above people? Was it— were you dropping out of that in these moments when you were doing that, or was it— is it possible to hold both?

In the same way possible to hold. I mean, I am sure that there's going to be some Buddhist somewhere that's going to, you know, be able to say exactly what that phase of it was. And I've read some of that and can identify like as moving through those phases. Um, but absolutely, I find— I remember getting a whole bunch of people who taught awakening together and saw, saw it all over the place. So I think that, you know, there's healed and unhealed in every aspect of every part of our evolutionary cycle. There's still dysregulation and regulation. There's still balance and imbalance. There's not like— there, it's an illusion that there's like some sort of amazing eternal balance that forever happens. That's just like— that, that, that wouldn't be described as balance. Balance is the thing that, you know, is the thing that you're always getting back to, but you're never You know? Yeah, yeah. So, so yeah, absolutely possible. And at some place deeper, there's a deeper place that where there's another thing that happens where it's like, I, I thinking that I'm better than somebody at this point is, I like, it's hard to conceive of. I would imagine it's possible, but like, it's hard to conceive of that that's a possibility. But I also wouldn't identify as awake, so that's strange. Like I wouldn't identify generally as anything including awake. So that there's something else about that. But also my mind was very interested in all these, like, okay, this stage and then this stage. And I remember reading about human development, and there's a psychological literature on these kinds of levels of awakening. And like Terry O'Fallon stuff is really good on this. And then, then there's the, you know, different forms of Buddhism and Hindu that talk about the stages of awakening. And I was really interested in it. Where am I? And like all of that, just has also died out completely.

Yeah, I don't—

like, I could give a shit about any of that stuff.

Yeah, that's something that's always been curious for— like, others have asked me this question because I'm close to you, and I haven't— I've had my own thoughts on an answer, but I don't know your answer, so that's why I'm going to ask you this question now. But, you know, you, you credit, like, the 8 years of meditation largely for a lot of what this, what this experience has been for you. And yet in courses, there's like only, only in like the most recent in-person course was there actually meditation as meditation for 10 minutes. And your instruction was, don't manage. And so, but, and yet doing, doing all this work, I find myself having, I've had a number of experiences that fit a lot of the descriptors of what you've said, where after I've had an emotional movement or after I've had somebody else hold roles for me in a group. Yeah. And just experience different aspects of myself. Just, there's an experience where I pop out of whatever pattern of self I've identified with and experience a vastness much larger than that. And so, and, and my path doing it through this work and not really being very focused on meditation, though I've done a whole lot of meditation and like Headspace apps years ago. Yeah. It's interesting that it's like, it, for me, it seems like it hasn't been necessary to meditate to that place. It's been more important just to do the self-exploration, whatever that— whatever form that takes, with whatever comes up.

Yeah.

Then to follow any particular—

so yeah, I, I think there's just a dissolution of self, and there's lots of ways to dissolve the self. And so, and, and our nature, the nature of humans, is to move from a very tight sense of self Like as a little kid, you're like, "I am this and everybody else is also this." Like, what do you want for Christmas? I want GI Joe with a kung fu grip. What does mom want for Christmas? They want GI Joe with a kung fu grip. And then naturally that sense of I expands and it expands to my family and to my team, my society, my humanity, the whole ecosystem, the universe. And so that's like, that's our nature to develop and to open our sense of self. And in that opening of the sense of self, all the ways that we define ourselves have to go away, or it can't reach everything, it can't be to all. And so, um, held emotions create a very deep sense of self. Um, uh, not the critical voice in the head sees a very deep, creates a very deep sense of self. Seeing yourself as separate from a group or seeing yourself as the group. Like, those things, like, start messing with the sense of self. So the— what I'm doing in the work and the tools are all very subtly pointing to a dissolution of self. And I think meditation is one really great way to do it. It has its pluses and minuses, and then there's a whole bunch of others. And But one of the things that's constantly like, if you look at like Groundbreakers 1 is all about the critical voice in the head. And in that critical voice in the head, we're asking, we'll start asking the question, well, is it, who's you? If you're not the critical voice in your head, who is, who's the critical voice in your head talking to? That's part of the exploration. And that there's another week long we have coming up on, on roles. And that's also like, oh, if you're dropping your roles, then who are you? So there it's, it's in everything we do. And so And I know plenty of people who've had awakening experiences without, without any meditation. And so, and I love meditation, so there's just a ton of tools. I think the thing about meditation that— the reason I think I'm— I didn't— the reason I know that that's not my calling to teach is, one, there's plenty of really great people teaching it, but two, you can really sit in the defined sense of self and meditation and a pillow because you're not bucking up against the world. And, and so our stuff is very relational because you're gonna— like, you can't fool yourself when you're in a relationship like that. You, you can't, or it's a lot harder. Or in business, or in a marriage. It's easy to do it when you're just sitting there by yourself on a pillow. And so our stuff is that, and it's also where humanity is today, you know. We're not farmers where we're sitting quietly on a field a lot. We're constantly moving. And so, I mean, endless people have told me that VIEW— vulnerability, impartiality, empathy, and wonder— it is, you know, when they're in that with somebody, they feel like they're meditating in a conversation. And so that it's all pointing to the same thing. But yeah, so, and it's consciously— I mean, it's designed that way. Our tools are designed to do that. And we've had that I know about at least 100 people who have had, you know, deep awakening experiences in our work.

Yeah, people— I liked what you had alluded to a little bit earlier of like, this just happens naturally. And I've, I've spoken now to a lot of people who just at some point in their lives, something happened meeting the description of what people describe as awakening. And one way that I've come to see it is just that like over time we build, we build these models for ourselves and for reality and the way things are, and eventually more information accumulates in our system that eventually overwhelms that model and then it crumbles. And in those moments when it crumbles, there's just this expansion and then a new model could form. There's like, you know, like it happens, a lot of people describe this having happened a lot to them as children, like early on in neurological development. Uh, and then maybe less so later in life unless they're doing a lot of this sort of work. Yeah. Uh, but I liked seeing this as just sort of a, this is a natural state. And the framing of view, the thing that's really landed for me in this work and attracted me to it from the start was that recognizing that the way of being that you've pointed to in view is something that I actually recognized as present throughout my life when I was authentically, when I was most authentic. And those were the times when things were really most flowing for me.

Yeah.

And so it's just like backpropagating that and recognizing that, yeah, there's not a, there's not a new there there. There's a, it's just seeing through the technical debt of my awareness and consciousness and intellect to, to get to what is actually much more natural or just what, I mean, I guess everything is natural, but to get to the more of a default state.

Yeah, the other thing about teaching it in this way is really useful to me anyways, and for the people that I noticed that it happens to, is it, it's not something like, oh, we're seeking after this and then we find it, and then somehow like that whole illusion is gone. What happens instead is like some people don't even notice it. There's no definition of it. Some people never— like there's, there's tons of people who had no idea that this was a pos— who've worked with us who no idea that it's a possibility. They're not trying for it. That's not what they're here for. They're here because they want to communicate with their husband better or their wife better. They, they're here, and then this thing happens, and it's like, yeah, whatever that thing was. And I, I feel like that's like a far more natural way to— that it moves, and it feels like a healthier, more integrative approach rather than, rather than like, here's this one aspect of development that I'm gonna go after. Yeah, but that's, let's see, that's the other thing. It just feels like it's a, it's more integrated and healthier when it, when it's not the way that it happened to me, you know, struggling for it.

Yeah. So one thing I'm noticing, this is the first time on the podcast that we've really even touched this topic because, yeah, I guess I could ask you why that is.

Yeah, yeah, I, I, same reason as I'm talking about. I think it's, uh, it was a It's distracting, and there's plenty of people who teach it really well. I mean, the name of the teachers that I went to or read from, there's just so many of them. And so I don't think there's any need for another of that. I think it's a saturated market, to speak business about it. But it's also just like that knowledge is there and has been there for eons. So that's one of the reasons. It's another reason, it's just, it, it, to me, it's a bit of a distraction from the whole humanity that's available. Um, two, I just like the amount of joy that comes from like the heart, the heart opening and awakening part of it also is just, it just, it tickles me more. And so I like being in that reality. I, I don't know, just drawn to it. That's the thing. I just didn't— and I, and what I noticed was in the early times of teaching, when I would talk about this stuff, it was distracting. It didn't— it didn't— to talk about it and to talk about my work in the awakening of it, or, or about the awakening, it just didn't seem to serve anybody. And it was the same thing, like, there's a way— if you've seen the Rapid Fire coaching you know, as you have, that there's a way that I could just sit down with somebody and bring them into that, like, space that I hit. And I can— I— there's this thing that I could do, and I would do it, and people would be like, whoo-hoo! But I stopped doing it because it didn't feel like that was serving anybody. It felt like that was, you know, it was like the same kind of candy experience that I had rather than the integrative whole heartfelt body. Yeah, embodied situation. So I just stopped doing it.

Yeah, I think a lot of that can relate to sort of, for example, exploring psychedelics. You can have, you can have this big experience that hits a lot of those notes, and it doesn't mean that you're going to be able to bring that back into your life, and it's not going to necessarily bring you additional seeing or, you know, capacity unless you really integrate all the stuff that was between you and that place to begin with. So I guess like what, what, what has been interesting to me about this work is I came here, you know, with a business question, with the problem that was in front of me was I want to see this narrow problem more clearly. Yeah, which is the same thing. It's basically awakening on a small scale of, so clearly there's something going on here where there's some amount of not seeing or some amount of illusion. And how do I see through that illusion to see just a little bit more of direct reality, whatever that might be, or just include a little bit more of my innate processing capacity? And that's, I think, what everybody wants somewhere in their life, whether it's a relationship or a business or or some sort of spiritual awakening or salvation or whatever it is. It's like, I want something that I don't currently have or feel that I don't currently have.

Yeah.

And starting, starting from there. So it's like, I'm having a challenge with my partner. Great. What's the challenge?

What? Like, yes.

What are the emotions holding the pattern in place? And when that starts to move, then more seeing occurs. And that is the process. And it doesn't have to be distracted by, at the end of this road, there's an end of the road to begin with, and you're somewhere on it, and now you're measured, and there's certain steps to get it right that you could intellectually learn and trap yourself in.

Yes.

There's just a—

that's right.

Where are you right now and what's the next step?

Yeah. And I want to be clear that there's a way that something like somebody can be listening to this and think, oh, psychadelics— we're speaking poorly about psychedelics or about direct non-dual teaching or about salvation or any of that. Like, I honor all of it. There's nothing— I mean, all of it has its shortcomings, you know. There's cults in all of it. There's, you know, there's backwaters in all of it. There's backwaters. And, and it's like, I just want to make sure if anybody's listening that Explore the path you feel called to explore. Don't take any of this as judgment. And for where I'm called, it's definitely not creating a false sense of end that people run towards and then think that they're done. It's like, no, it's just, we just keep on dancing. We just keep on evolving. We just learn to enjoy more and more and more. We become kinder, more loving, more compassionate to ourselves and others. And there's really no end to that. Hope— hopefully there's no end to that, you know.

Mm-hmm. Something I've come to appreciate is that whatever path I'm on, whatever story I'm in, whatever, whatever I think I need in the moment, following through on exploring that path and just being as aware as I'm capable of being is what gets me the farthest. Not deciding which path I'm on or if it's the best path, or—

yeah, yeah, yeah.

Though that itself, that part is also part of the path, like, what should I do, you know?

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lovely put. Yeah. And so God knows I walk so many— I've done so much different kinds of work, you know, and, and I really I love it when I see folks in our workshops talking about different kinds of work and how they interact with each other. And I think it's just such an important part of it. And I think that's part of like the way my upbringing— like, I was lucky in the fact that I think now it's more used— like with the internet, there's so many ways to get— but I was born and raised without the internet. So there wasn't like, oh, here's the 20 different modalities And so that, especially for the, my peers, there was, it was definitely a kind of a, this is the way, this is the way, this is the way. And one of the things that I really appreciate about society now, especially with the folks that I'm working with, like nobody, nobody's like, Joe's way is the way. Like, that is like, it doesn't happen, which is such a fucking relief, right? There's, because that's so limiting and And so I just love the fact that today in our society— I remember the first meditation retreat I went to, they were just like, you know, pick your path, but once you pick it, commit to it, whether it's this one or another one. And I do agree that there's some things that are really important to commit to. I think picking some, some of the paths to commit to and like keep them, you know, I think is, is very useful. And Like, there's so much wisdom everywhere, and so many have— like, can sweep some corners and some can't sweep those same corners. And some— everyone has their limitations. So I'm just really grateful in today's world that I don't come across anybody who thinks like, this is the way. And I think that's part of it too, is that one of the other reasons I don't like an end state, like there's an awakening and then you're done, it doesn't work, is because that like propagates the idea of a religious or like a way. There's a state and then there's a way and there's teaching, and it's just like all of that just feels like— yeah, it doesn't, doesn't feel helpful.

Yeah. And then everything that you might experience that feels like an awakening might just be a prelude to another experience.

Like, exactly.

Yeah, it's all an evolution.

Every epiphany is your— is a future rut. Mhm. Yeah.

Awesome. Well, this has been lovely. I love doing this longer format conversation and just kind of getting more into the, into the details.

Yeah.

And I loved hearing more about your, your history and your childhood.

Yeah. Yeah. I, and I, I know I've said at the beginning, and I am, you know, that it was, I think that there's this thing that I want to say, which is like, with the, if you've listened to this whole thing, And maybe we'll make it into parts, but if you've listened to the whole thing, like, there's this time when it's really important to believe in your parents, and then there's a time where it's really important to get angry and realize that your parents are fallible and that they fucked you up. And then there's this time to really— it's really important to like have a forgiveness and a gratitude. And then there's this like thing that happens that's just natural, which is like this deep gratitude. And I just want to say that about my folks, like how much gratitude I have for them and how much they pushed the ball forward that allowed me to be here. And also, I just think it's really important to respect their work and to respect what they've given me. It's important to be very— it was important to me to be very honest about it. But it doesn't, it doesn't in any way say that I don't love or respect or grateful for them.

Yeah, thank you.

Yeah, I enjoyed this.

Yeah, and thank you everybody for listening. Uh, we'd love to hear from you on this, uh, if you have any further questions, maybe we'll do some follow-up episodes. I'd also love to do one on my history. If you have any questions about that, please send them. I've got some interesting stories to figure out what to tell. And, uh, figure out interesting— uh, find us on Twitter @artofacomp or check us out at artofaccomplishment.com.

All right, have a good one, Brett. Good to see you.

You too.