Addressing Conflict Avoidance: Finding Connection in Disagreement

Welcome back to The Art of Accomplishment, where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease. I am Brett Kistler, and this is Joe Hudson. Hey everybody, how's your week going today? How's your week going?

To week, this week, to week, it's, it's going, it's, it's full and busy and, um And I had this week, I had this very interesting conversation with somebody and we were taking a walk together and he started telling me the story of where his marriage was at. And it's the same story that I think I've heard a lot. Like the players are different, but it's basically, hey, we got married, it was really great, we were happy. And over time there's like this kind of built up resentment. There's this like walking on eggshells. There is this like We're not entirely happy with one another, that whole thing. And sometimes I hear that story in marriages. Sometimes I hear this story between founders. Sometimes I hear the story inside of a job. And to me, usually there's a couple of keywords in this that will point me to the idea that this is all created by conflict avoidance. And that's what this conversation I was having was. It was like, oh, this is all about conflict avoidance. And so we started talking about it. It was really useful for him. And then he said, oh, I've got this CEO friend who's having same issues, conflict avoidance is getting in the way of his work, in the way of his marriage. And you don't have an episode on it. So could you make an episode on conflict avoidance? And so that's That's how this thing is happening. It's like, I'm just— I'm all into it. So beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's fun because there's also not a single episode that we could point to that isn't also about conflict avoidance in some facet or some regard.

Totally, totally.

Yeah, exactly. But yeah, people want to search for one by conflict avoidance in the title, then here we go. Here we go. You can go straight to this. Straight to the center of it. Yeah. Well, this is great. I just got married and everything's great. So like, let's see. I want to hear more of the story.

Yeah. Yeah. So, so typically the way that the story goes is there's things that are happening and the, and somebody doesn't want to deal with the ramifications of the conversation. And that's where the conflict avoidance comes in. It's, it's, oh, I don't want to make them angry or something to that effect. My, my guess is that this is not going to be something that you and Alexa are going to face because you, if there's a problem, you all talk about it despite the consequences of it, despite whether somebody gets upset. Despite whether somebody might want to leave somebody else, what I've noticed is you two want to have that conversation because it's more important for you to be in the truth of it than it is to make it, make it good right now. And so that's really, that's where the conflict avoidance really destroys a marriage in the long run, is because you're not showing up in your truth as a way to avoid the potential outcome of the other person's behavior or being abandoned or whatever.

And I, I've definitely had many experiences throughout my life where sometimes there's been like a, like a year running, 2 years kind of, maybe, maybe it's somebody with a, yeah, like a business partner, a co-founder, or a an employee, or it's a romantic partner, or it's just somebody, somebody in my life that I want to collaborate with but I'm not, or we're kind of collaborating but we're actually a little bit more in competition. This comes up all over life, this.

Yeah.

And it can be a slow burn.

Yeah. Yes, you're right, it does come up all over life. And sometimes the issue is that you don't realize that it feels wrong, and so you don't address it. And sometimes the issue is is it worth it? You know, is it worth it to bring this up? Blah, blah, blah.

Yeah. So you're in the analysis of it forever.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So yeah, I think, I think what's important is to start by like— I'm sure there's some folks who are like, what the hell, conflict avoidance? So what, what I mean by conflict avoidance is that you're not using conflict to get what you want. So I think some people, when they think about conflict, they're thinking, oh, if somebody likes conflict, then they're just going to go and fight to get the things that they want. That, that is like creating conflict. That is not being— that is not like, uh, inviting or allowing conflict or seeing the, the benefit of conflict.

So you mean like using conflict as a manipulative tool? Like, correct, if I create conflict, then I'm in some kind of home turf where I know I can win, and other one— everyone else is going to run away from their wants, and then I'm going to get what I want. That kind of thing. Correct.

Yeah.

Got it.

Yeah. Or like a boss who comes in and yells, not conflict avoidant, but also like not using conflict to create great solutions or not using conflict to create connection. Right.

Yeah. Or just seeing the conflict that's there and—

Yes, exactly. Naming it.

Leaning into it. Yeah.

Right. So when I'm saying conflict avoidance, what I'm not saying is that you're using, like, if you're not conflict avoidant, then you're not using conflict to get what you want. What you're doing is you're allowing conflict to get something better than you could actually imagine. And so what I mean there is that there's— typically if there's two people and they are close or they're working together, they love each other and they start having conflict, that is the room for growth for a better solution. That's like, that is the natural tension of evolution. And to avoid it, you avoid the evolution. If you go into it, then you, then you speed the evolution. So it's not creating tension, it's noticing the tension that's there, the conflict that's there, the friction that's there, there, and then leaning in instead of leaning away from it.

Yeah, so it allows the, it allows the conflict or the tension itself to transform and allows you and the other person to transform in your relationship and in your relationships to yourselves. And if that's not happening, then the conflict will become some stagnant energy that ultimately everything else in your life becomes oriented around, either avoiding or keeping in place or not disturbing, not pulling up the rug and seeing all the cobwebs under it, that kind of thing.

And it'll get bigger and bigger so that when you finally lean into the conflict, it has a much higher chance of blowing shit up, right? Whereas if you're like right on top of it in every moment— when, I mean, don't— it doesn't need to be that diligent, but if you on a weekly basis say, okay, what's— where's the tension here that I'm not addressing and I'm going to address it, then it's usually easier to, to move through most of it.

Yeah. So what makes this a thing? What makes people avoid conflict?

Oh, a lot of it has to do with scared of their own anger or scared and therefore scared of other people's anger. Like fear of anger has a tremendous amount to do with it for most folks. They're scared of losing love. So, oh, if I say what I want, if I say what doesn't work for me, we saw that today in MasterClass, right? It's like that fear of losing your love, losing love, being abandoned. But the one that I think people don't see that is really important to see is that it is a fear of being seen and being loved. Love is very scary if you really let it all the way in. It'll, you know, blow you apart and, you know, it'll break you open. And so I think if you are conflict avoidant, it means you're not showing up as you and therefore you can't be loved. And so you're actually preventing love from happening. So it's like, the way I would say it is, if I am conflict avoidant, I'm not showing up in my truth. If I'm not showing up in my truth, nobody can love me for my truth, which means they can't love me. They're loving some part, thing of me that I'm putting forth in the world, some image, some, you know, projection of what I think I should be.

And then I get to say, they're not loving me, they don't see me, they're just seeing this image, and that's all I'm letting them see. And that's the cycle.

Yeah, that's the cycle. That's right. So I think that's— there's a lot of other symptoms to it that might be seen as reasons, but I would say those are the core ones. When I see people work on conflict avoidance, if they get really good with their anger and if they really lean into being abandoned and find the pleasure of that experience and the freedom of that experience and really start learning to love themselves, and therefore they're not scared of being loved, The thing goes away. The conflict avoidance goes away.

Yeah. Right, right. And so if these are the reasons, and you mentioned that there's other symptoms, what are some of the other symptoms or the consequences? Uh, yeah, ways that you could see, like, ways that you could follow a breadcrumb back to your conflict avoidance if you notice this in your life. And also just reasons to, uh, reasons to address this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great. Uh, bad relationships. Your relationships have become resentful and stagnant, and you don't— you're like, I don't want to go home. That That would be one. You get bad solutions. So let's say in a marriage where there's conflict, it means one person's gotten their— no conflict, it means there's one person's gotten in the way or the other person's gotten in the way or there's separation. And none of those are great solutions. With conflict, you can find the thing that works for everybody and that helps everybody grow and thrive. And so you don't get those kinds of solutions, nor would you in a business. Right? If like the tech department is disagreeing with the customer service department or the sales department, it means that there's a lack of alignment in the company and there's a solution that's available that can actually handle both teams' concerns. And so the job is to find that solution. It is not to pick either or. And so better solutions. There's just less aliveness. What I notice is when people are conflict avoidant, it just starts feeling heavy. It's just like there's just something that the aliveness goes away. I was working with a CEO this week and she was avoiding just the tension of leading and the people that she had to call out to really lead and the conflict she had to have. And then she leaned into it and it was like, I don't want to do this job. On Monday and on Friday she's like, this is fucking exciting and great. It was the most palpable, quick transformation I've ever seen in it. It was amazing. Wow. And all of a sudden she was like absolutely alive in it. Um, bad leadership, conflict avoidance is, is, you know, I literally used to have in a personality assessment, if people were conflict avoidant, I would not hire them in a CEO role. Because usually conflict avoidance in a CEO and a leader means that decisions don't get made. It means that problems are allowed to fester and it makes everybody who's following that person lose faith in that person because they're letting this— like they're letting the cesspool grow. So yeah, so that would be something that I wouldn't hire CEOs for. Hiding from love, which we've already talked about. Oh, and then the other thing that's interesting is aggressive people become more aggressive and more domineering when you are conflict avoidant. And so like just perfect golden algorithm, you're increasing the amount of conflict that comes to you because what happens is if there's an aggressive person and you can't meet them, then in their mind you don't care or you can't hold them or they're better than you. And so if somebody's aggressive and you can meet them, you're like, yeah, I'm not— like, I'm right here, I'm holding you, baby. Like, your anger does not scare me. Then they can settle down and relax. And, and so then there's less conflict. And I was— this is a cool story about this. So last night I'm having dinner with this guy, and he's like— he works at a tire— he runs a tire shop. And he is like— he's been a friend for a while, and he's like, oh, I'm gonna do whatever I want. Like, he's just like that kind of guy. And I frickin' love it. There is like, there's no lack of authenticity and he just says whatever he thinks. I just love that. And so we're sitting there talking and he's talking about how working at this tire shop is not doing well for him because he's getting angry often. But then he tells me the story. He's like, yeah, these customers come in and they're absolutely like assholes. He's like, and I'm just like, oh, what do I do? He goes, and then they always are like, yeah, here's my phone number. I'd like to keep in touch at the end of it. Like every time that he holds, holds the— and I was like, let me explain what— like I was like geeking out. I'm like, psychologically, let me explain to you how that works. And it's that thing of like, he, he, they, they feel like, oh, my anger is safe here. Like I can have anger and this person's not going to fold. And so I actually want this person in my life. And he's like, He's like, this happens 4 times a week where I literally am like, hey, hold the container. And this person who started off as like the asshole in like the $150,000 car who's like, come on, open the door, it's only 5:45, you closed at 5:30, ends up saying, hey, can we hang out? You know, at the end of it.

Yeah. So he's registering the anger as a problem. And if he's— if he was paying attention, it's actually bringing him closer to connection and also clarifying boundaries and resulting in better relationships. And if he had that recognition land more deeply, the anger would be even less constricted, and it would just be— he would just be there meeting them with love.

Yes, yeah, I would say that the thing that, like, if he could hold that same energy without the anger, he would be a lot less constricted, correct. And I think that's about, for him, it's not beating himself up for the anger, but it's also about not taking stuff personally. So slightly different thing that's happening there. But yes, if he could love the anger, it would show up with less ho to it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Using the word anger not to describe just what people see as anger, but also just the internal felt experience of If you notice that little bit of anger in you when a customer is doing whatever a customer does that makes you angry, the earlier you notice it and the less constricted you are around it, the more fully you can meet the situation without, without it being about them, without it being about blame.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. Or about you, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

No blame or shame.

Yeah.

Yeah. So So what are some of the stories that people tell to themselves or just others? Like, what kind of worldviews do people hold that will help them avoid conflict or cause them to avoid it?

Yeah, let's see. Um, some folks are just like, oh, I should just take care of myself, and, and like, what does it have to do with them anyways? Like, I should just be able to overcome my anger. That would be be one that would do that. Um, I, um, it's my fault, what do I, what did I do wrong, how do I fix myself is another one that allows people to avoid conflict. Uh, it's pointless, you know, they're gonna always be an asshole, so why even handle it? Like, I can't change my wife, which is true, you can't change your wife or your husband, but that doesn't mean it's okay not to tell them what's happening with you and how how it all feels to you. They won't get it. It's not worth it. People who fight— I heard this one just last week too, which was someone was like, yeah, I just kind of— before I realized this, I just felt like everybody who had conflict was an idiot and they were like lesser than me. He's like, now— he's like, now I'm like— I think he just posted something in MasterClass about loving his anger. And so Yeah, those are other examples. So I think sometimes we put— we judge others, sometimes we put ourselves above, sometimes we do it by saying that it's our problem. There's lots of ways that we avoid the conflict.

A common thread that I hear in all of these is that the conflict doesn't go away, it just goes internal. Like, I should take care of myself is an internal conflict, it's my fault is an internal conflict. It's pointless, they won't get it, not worth it. Still kind of a conflict. There's like a suppression.

Yeah. Yeah, it's 'cause I'm not living the life I wanna live and I can't. That's an internal conflict.

Yeah. Yeah, people who fight over this stuff, therefore if I were ever to fight, I'm bad or wrong or weak or whatever it is that I judge. Therefore the conflict is just another, all of these are just ways instead of having the conflict out in the open where it actually exists, bringing it inside and psyching out. Cycling it inside ourselves. Beautiful.

Oh, I never thought about it. That's, yeah, that's so obvious and so beautiful and well seen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Great. Very cool. Yeah.

Yeah. Awesome. So I wanna make sure that we don't make this pathologized thing of like, oh, conflict avoidance, this is clearly ineffective and wrong. What are you doing being conflict avoidant? What's the, what's the wisdom behind the pattern, behind the behavior of avoiding conflict?

Yeah, I think there's a couple things. First is like short-term. If you want short-term results, it's probably— it's okay to avoid the conflict, meaning, okay, I'm gonna feel better for now on some level. And so I think there's actually logical times to do that. If it's, you know, somebody you're in a supermarket with, you know, and it's like— and they're like push you aside, like, yeah, you could like handle— you could say like, ah, I don't know, Like, I think that the key there is if you can actually forgive and forget, great. And if you can't forgive and forget, then there's something to be done. Doesn't mean there's something to be done with the person at the supermarket, but there's something to be done maybe internally. So you're not carrying around that internal conflict, as you just said. I think that's one. I think there's also times when you have somebody who's like got a personality disorder or something like that, and conflict doesn't actually get to resolution. Or somebody who is so defensive potentially that conflict doesn't ever get to resolution. I think there's a trap there. And so the main thing is if that's the case, if you're with somebody whose conflict can never get to resolution for whatever reason, then what are you doing with that person in your life in any way, whether they're a boss or a mate or a best friend? If that's really the case and you have your own questioning to do, what would make me be with somebody where I can't resolve conflict? Because there is no relationship I won't have some. So there's that aspect, but there's also the other aspect where people can say, um, yeah, the conflict can never be resolved, so I'm not going to deal with it. Um, partially that might be the way you're handling the conflict, so there's something there as well.

You might be the one for which there's always conflict, right?

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So, but there, there's some wisdom to all of that. And, and I think more importantly, I think the other way to say, I would say to not pathologize it. And I think the more important way to say it is like, this developed for a reason. This developed because you had somebody in your early childhood who was like angry all the time and there was no way to resolve that conflict. You didn't get the apologies that would've been honorable to give you. So what happened is you learned a skill of avoiding conflict. And what's interesting is people who are really good at avoiding conflict, they're really good at like forgiving and forgetting on some level, like the immediate thing can happen, um, but then it just kind of sits underneath and eventually blows everything up. Um, so that's the other, that's the other piece, is just to really recognize that it's not a bad thing. It was a— probably saved your life at some point, you know, or at least made your life a lot more bearable.

So, so to the flip side of that, like when is, when is leaning into conflict or not avoiding a conflict bad for you or a, you know, like what I'm hearing you say is like the other side of it is like you go around creating conflict.

Like when is that right?

Or, or you have one mode, like the hand, the hand that's always opened or closed is still crippled. If you're like, if there's a conflict, I'm leaning into it and then that becomes dogmatic. And then you find yourself in a life of conflict and also constantly triggered and over, like, out of regulation.

And yeah, yeah, so that's great, that's great.

Stepping into conflicts you're not ready for that you end up, yeah, buckling over because you stepped into, yeah, too surefooted in the first place but then weren't able to back it up.

What's the right— yeah, I would say so. There's the, there's one form of it which is I'm creating conflict in my life. So I'm not avoiding it, I'm creating it. And I like, yeah, I fucking hate what you're doing. Why are you doing that? Like, that is— it's not conflict avoidant, but it isn't— it's also creating conflict where it's completely unnecessary. And then the other version of that is I'm going to step into conflict, but I am not able to do it in a non-personal or non-defended way. And I'm not able to announce that and own that. So to come in and say, wow, this is bothering me and I'm taking it really personally and I don't want to be taking it personally, that's one thing. And I think a great thing. But to be like, why did you do this? I'm not avoiding conflict. And like, so you're starting a fight because you're defended and because you're shut down. And you're armored up. You can do that. And to be honest with you, I think that's actually a better way to go than to be completely conflict avoidant. However, it doesn't teach you the main thing, which is that the conflict is the grist for the evolutionary mill. It is the exact place that we need to lean in and to learn to resolve. It's very much like if you're running a factory, your job is to go and find all the extra friction, psychological friction or physical friction. And, and you like, you look for it, you get excited because you see it, because if you can work that issue, then all of a sudden everything runs smoother. And it's the same thing inside of a relationship. And so if you're in any way leaning into the conflict in which it doesn't smooth it out, then there's still something to learn about how to lean into conflict. However, I'd far rather have somebody lean into conflict occasionally and get it wrong than to completely lean out. Like, I'm not going to have conflict until I am in a perfect position that I can go in and do it the right way. It's like there's no faith in other people in that. And you know that I would say don't do that. It's a fine balance, but you'll know it. You'll know that. You'll know how, like, if you do this as a practice, you get better and better at having conflict, and you get better and better at making each, each moment of conflict a deep teaching and learning.

Yeah, there's, there's sort of a paradox in what I heard you say earlier where if you're leaning into the conflict and it's a fight, then it's like that's going to create more conflict. So there's something about, like, if you can lean into a conflict but you're actually holding the energy that this isn't a fight Like, I'm not defended. I'm not— it's empower over power, essentially. Yeah, in terms of this week's masterclass. Yes, where if you step into a conflict and you are empowered and you're looking for the solution and you're advocating for your wants and your needs, and you're also in view and you're curious and you want the other person to succeed as well, then yes, the tension becomes just beautiful tension. So to walk into a conflict as though it's a fight is to create conflict.

Yes, beautiful. Yeah, yeah. Or, or also walking into conflict like, I'll never get what I want, also isn't a great— it's not a great way to walk into the conflict either.

Or to say, walking into a conflict with your own internal conflict. Like, if, if you have the belief, I'll never get what I want, you have that conflict internally.

Yes.

And you can't fully show up to the external relationship or that conflict because the story that you have is in the way.

Right. And I would still rather have someone do that than completely avoid the conflict, because at least you can learn something in that interaction that you can't learn just keeping it all to yourself.

Right.

And I think that, that, that, that's the, that's the other thing is like if you are looking for a fight, If you're coming defended and ready for the fight, then you're going to sound like this: "What made you do that?" And you can say that you're not avoiding conflict, but that's actually creating conflict. Or if you're, "I'm never going to get what I want," it's— and there's a lot of versions of it, but one would be like, "Oh, like, why do you keep doing that to me? Why are you doing that to me?" Which is also going to not get you what you want, right? If you are like, oh, this is conflict and I'm excited to learn something from this, even if I'm triggered or anything, then it's like, hey, what's happening? Like, you're— then you're in view. You're like, what, what, what made that happen? What made— what made us have a conflict here? How do we— how do we both get what we want? And, and, you know, so it's a whole different attitude. I'm not, not saying what to say, I'm just saying what's the attitude, what's the emotional experience behind it.

Yeah. And so for listeners who are sort of kind of fuzzy about this right now, like leaning into conflict, not avoiding conflict, avoiding conflict, how could people notice when, if they're leaning into conflict is actually avoidance of something else?

Yeah, if you're trying to get your way or if you rather win or if you think there's a winner or a loser, all of those are pretty much good good signs that you are either creating conflict or avoiding conflict. Um, if it becomes either-or, binary, somebody's win, someone loses, or I'm trying to get my way or they're going to get their way, it's not really leaning into conflict. If your main concern really isn't, I want to see them and I want to be seen— maybe you can't be seen— but to be in that, like, oh, this conversation is about seeing them and seeing if they can see me. I will really— that's a very different way to approach conflict.

And I'd imagine this also traces back to like, what is your experience in the conflict? How are you experiencing the conflict right now? Is it being enjoyed? Are you in constriction? Do you feel you have to endure it? Is it something that you're welcoming. So what happens in any of those kind of attitudes and stances?

So what I would say is that there is the, okay, I'll handle the conflict, and you're going to have more of that story from the tire guy at the beginning. Like, that's what that's going to look like. There's also like enjoying the conflict in a way that's like a personal, oh cool, I have tension inside myself, I get to feel that, I get to go into the conflict and learn something, that's going to create a state of a lot of equanimity and curiosity. You're going to be much more in view. If you are constricted against, if you're defending against the conflict, you're either going to avoid it or you're going to do it in such a way that really amplifies it is another. Yeah. And if it's an enduring of conflict, then it's almost always like this avoidance. That comes with it. And the cool thing is, as you learn to handle conflict externally, then you also start learning how to handle conflict internally. Like, "Oh, oh wow. Okay, I have this internal conflict. What's the beauty here?" Instead of the typical question, which is, "How do I make this go away?" Like half the questions, "Hey Joe, I have this internal conflict. How do I make it go away?" Instead of, "Hey Joe, I've got this internal conflict. How do I make— hey, how do I learn? How do I I was like, bro, what is this? How does this make me— this conflict is actually the tension that allows me to evolve. I'm so excited by it. So that as you learn to approach conflict externally that way, it changes internally as well.

Yeah. So, so we've got listeners at all kinds of different levels from all kinds of different angles of this pattern. A lot of them are probably asking a question of the very same nature, like, how do I stop being conflict avoidant? And well, what would be, what would be like a good range of next steps, concrete steps somebody might take to begin an experimentation or a journey?

Yeah, getting good with your own anger, allowing, you know, your anger to move and in a safe place where nobody gets hurt and you're not doing it in a way that causes any damage and or hurts anybody. But getting good with your anger is going to be a huge part of it. Doing little experiments. What's the littlest itty-bitty conflict that I have and how do I address that? And feeling all the feelings that come into that. Like, what are all the feelings that come into that? And then how do you feel them? So that's a really good one. The other thing that you can do is visualize the consequences and like emotionally feel through the consequences. Like typically one of the ways to really notice there's conflict avoidance happening is you, what I call walking on eggshells, where you're like careful of the other person's mood and you're trying to manage the other person's mood and what happens if you don't. And then visualize and feel everything you have to feel there. So just like anything, you're avoiding conflict so that you don't have to feel certain emotions. So go feel the emotions and then you won't avoid the conflict.

Which is a lot like just being in the other person. If you find yourself in the other person, in their mind, in their emotions, taking on their emotions, being responsible for them, feeling them such that you're not feeling your own, then that's also a pointer to be— yeah, to be with yourself.

Yeah, it's, it's a great question. It's like What makes you— that's a great question to just ask yourself. What makes you care more about their emotional state than yours? Or the other version of this is, what makes it your job to take care of their emotional state? And what would make it their job to take care of your emotional state? Would be a great question, because that's what conflict avoidance is really doing, is you're managing somebody else's emotions. Um, and then feel the pain of not being loved. You're not showing up, so no one can love you. Feel the pain of that. Oftentimes it is that pain, when you become so acutely aware of it, you can't avoid conflict anymore. If you really sit down and say, oh, I have set it up so that my wife, husband can never love me because they don't know who I am what I feel, what's really going on for me, the problems that I have. So they can't freaking love me. So I've set up this world where I can't be loved and they can't love me. And feel your pain in that and feel their pain. Like, oh, imagine that they want to love you and they can't because you're not there. Let that hurt. And if that hurts long enough, you're going to stop it. You're going to be like, okay, here it is. This is me. Yeah, those are all really great ways. Yeah, yeah.

I'm not sure if you mentioned this one, but also with regard to your wants, if you let yourself feel your wants long enough, that will also burn. Yes. And until you ask, you know, like, so asking, asking for what you want can be a great way.

Yeah, for sure. If you're gonna ask for what you want, because most of the time the people who are really conflict avoidant are also not asking for certain things they want. As if, for instance, it's like, I want to live in the country and my wife doesn't want to drive a car. And so I can't ask, I can't ask for like, hey, I really want to live in the country. I can't ask for that because my wife really doesn't want to, you know, drive a car as a weird example. But so almost all the times, the us not being able to ask for what we want means we're avoiding conflict. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's cool.

Well, that feels like a pretty good place to, to leave this one. Yeah, anything else to add?

I got nothing. I'm all tapped out today.

Awesome. That's it.

That's what I had.

Let's call it. Thank you everybody for listening.

Yeah, thanks.

Yeah.

Oh yeah, hey, you can— we're, we're doing social media now. If you've gone on this journey long enough, we're doing, uh, there's like the Twitter that we've always had. There's, uh, I think, I think @fu_joe is my Twitter handle that's happening now. So if you want to be there, Joe Hudson, I believe. Oh, thank you. Have you— @fu_joe_hudson, um, thank you. And, uh, on LinkedIn. And yeah, so if you're interested, you can check us out there as well.

Yeah, and there's also a share button. If— I don't know if anyone's ever heard this on any podcast or YouTube video, but you can actually subscribe to things, know when they're happening, and you can even share them with your friends.

Just saying. Just gonna put that out there. We're just putting it out there, and then we're gonna own our wants. We, we actually want you to subscribe and share.

I'm just gonna drop hints. You can own your own.

Okay.

Yeah.

All right. All right. Love you, Brett. It's good to be with you as always.

Yeah. Thank you, Joe. Bye-bye.