Allowing Yourself to Change (Joe Coaches Brett)

My mind is flitting around in a million directions, going down rabbit holes, and my body is like, "Hey, we have something important to do." Yeah, that's beautiful.

That's always the way it works, right? The relationship with the self is reflected in the relationship with the people around us.

Welcome to The Art of Accomplishment, where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease. I'm Brett Kistler, here today with my co-host Joe Hudson. Okay, so this is going to be a really interesting episode. We started the call intending to dive into an episode on attentional black holes, or perhaps on engineering our own heartbreak, but I've been having a rough week and we ended up diving into what turned out to be a session with Joe coaching me. So Here it is, raw and unfiltered, and I hope you like it. So throughout my life, I have this pattern of diving into something really, really deeply and hyper-focusing on it, and then it starts to become a hyper-focus to the exclusion of other things, and then ultimately to the avoidance of other things. And then I build competence in the thing that I'm getting hyper-focused in until I start to get a little bit complacent And then that thing ends up crashing. And then I'm like left seeing the consequences of all the avoidance in the rest of my life. And somehow this has usually ended up happening in such a way that has left me better off than I started over time. But it really just feels like extremely wild swings, big ups, big downs.

Can you give me an example from like 2 years ago?

Yeah. An example from a couple of years ago was You know, like in 2017 I started getting, had been interested in, but started seeing a lot of people get interested in crypto, like cryptocurrencies and investing. So yeah, so I started to see all kinds of opportunity and I just became very deeply interested in it. And that seems like a good thing, being interested in something that's new and exciting and potentially, you know, world-changing, even if it's such early stages that it might not be world-changing for years. But I, like many other people, got really focused on, you know, this possible future and kind of hanging my hopes on the financial gain that I was imagining that I was seeing in my, like, the numbers in my financial accounts. And also at the same time, starting to feel like they were more important. They became higher priority to me than what was going on in my life. The numbers in the financial game became much bigger than the numbers in my business financial game. And also the excitement of it became much bigger than my excitement elsewhere. And this has also occurred in other areas like with BASE jumping, just really getting into something that's super deeply exciting and enlivening for me, or in a relationship, just getting fully swept up in it. And disappearing attentionally from other areas of my life.

What makes you say it disappearing intentionally?

No, not intentionally, attentionally. Like my attention draws away from places that it used to be.

Right, what would make you just not say I was disappearing into it? What makes you give the caveat of attentionally?

Yeah, I think I have a little bit of a self-judgment around my attention. Throughout this process, there's a part of me that's like, no, don't fully go here. There's other things you care about. And then there's a sort of a negative feeling associated with not paying attention to the things that I care about. Or finding that I care less than I did a moment ago about them.

How does that tie into, say, commitment? Like, what's your experience of commitment?

My experience of commitment has, over the course of my life, been something that starts with— generally starts in the same way as I just described, with a lot of fire and a lot of excitement. Hmm. And then, you know, I'm a very flowy person. Like I kind of go from one thing to another thing and I'm following some thread that just cuts across all these different areas of life. And so very commonly for me, the thing that I'm following shifts or changes shape. And that doesn't mean that I'm not interested in the thing that I was interested in before, but I start to feel like obligated not to change, like put myself into an obligation not to change. In order to keep the commitment. I see.

So what's the difference between what you're describing as far as going down an attentional rabbit hole and being committed to something?

Well, I mean, going down the intentional rabbit hole is being committed to the exploration of that rabbit hole.

Yeah.

And it also feels like a disowning of other commitments, and there's shame in that.

If we were to ask, let's say, any woman in your life over the last 20 years, what would they say your relationship to commitment was?

That's a really good question. You'd have to ask some of them.

If you had to guess, maybe they even said something to you at some point.

Yeah, I mean, they say various things. I would say that they say that I am a deeply committed partner. And also that I change.

Yeah.

And something that they've said is that like when, when they're with me, you know, they feel the commitment really strongly. And then when, when I'm not with them, then they feel the lack of it.

Right. So this is the thing you're pointing to. It's like you get into something, you're fully in it. That's all you're focused on. It's like a strong sense of an immediate commitment, but then the things that you've already started to some degree fall by the wayside and they don't, you don't feel the commitment towards them in the same visceral way and they don't feel the commitment from you during those times of going deeply down the attentional rabbit hole.

Yeah, which then creates shame around that rabbit hole itself.

Okay, so if you take the shame out of it, what's the problem with all this?

I guess the problem is that it just feels unstable and that also looking back through my life, the consequences of it have been just these wild oscillations, which is something that I actually really enjoy. I do really enjoy having a life that just varies wildly from thing to thing. And I just go super deep into a direction that and go farther than most people might go in that direction.

So separate for me the difference between what you like about having a highly varied and I'll call it intense life and what you don't like about having a highly varied and intense life.

Yeah, what I like about it is that I learn a lot and I collect a wealth of different experiences. And I grow. And what I don't like about it is there's these periodic, like, tectonic shifts that I experience as painful, where there's just a lot of resistance. And I go into a period of perhaps months of feeling disconnected, but not noticing how disconnected I'm feeling until all of a sudden it just shows up and I recognize how disconnected I've been from from things that I actually do love and how much I've actually narrowed into a stressful relationship with the thing that I'm focused on.

Uh-huh. Okay. So the thing is, what I'm hearing you say is that you love going down these rabbit holes and the fact that you learn and you grow, but somewhere down the rabbit hole, it moves from passion to stress. It moves from passion to obligation. And then in that, you start becoming so single-minded that you forget to live a life that's enjoyable through balance or through some of your other commitments. Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, absolutely. And I find myself unaware of, you know, basic logistical things that are important for kind of keeping my life together.

Right. And I'm just curious, what if nobody ever gave you shit about that? What if, like, you did this and everybody was like, oh, that's cool, that's Brett being artistic, or that's Brett doing his thing, that's Brett providing for the family, whatever. Everybody, whenever you did all that, nobody guilted you or shamed you or said you weren't there for me. How would your relationship with this cycle change?

Yeah, interesting. It's hard to even imagine separating those things because I believe that my doing things this way leaves people kind of left in the dark. Like there's a way that I'm taking responsibility for other people depending on me and then me going off in a new direction. So whether or not they even shame me about it or even show hurt at me, there's a way that I just project it or there's a way that I just take responsibility that, their experience of disappointment or abandonment.

So I know your childhood enough to be able to point to something. So I'm going to point directly, which is— maybe I don't know it well enough. Let's see if I remember correctly. How similar this is, you going down a different rabbit hole than your family did on a religious basis.

Yeah. Wow. I had not thought of it that way, but it does feel very much like that.

Yeah, so, so stop talking about it for a second. Just feel that, feel that place that you felt when you diverted from the rabbit hole that your family was in and stayed in around religion, and you went looking somewhere else.

Yeah, I felt very much like I was letting my mom down.

Yeah.

And the pain that she would feel about my afterlife was my fault.

Yeah.

And I resisted that feeling but also still bought into it. There's also even another, like, other layers. Like, throughout, throughout my religious upbringing, there was times that we changed churches And reasons that might happen was because we, or my mom, or I, or like, however it was, would diverge from the prevailing opinion in, you know, the church or the group that we were in. And that led to a lot of disconnection from friends and people that were really important to me. I'm seeing now ways that I've recreated that my whole life too.

As well as the obsession.

Yeah. Right.

Like, I would assume that at some point you were obsessed with the religion or God or whatever that relationship was as a kid.

Yeah, I went deep. I was, you know, the bassist in my youth group band, right? Went on revivals. Yeah.

So here this is repeating, and if you, if you feel that feeling in your body of that moment of recognition that you were causing your mom pain, or at least that's the way it was told to you, that you were causing your mom pain for not believing in this and that whole feeling. Like, where in your body does that sit?

There's a— there's just a, like, anxious tension in my chest and in my arms.

Yeah. And how similar is that feeling to the feeling of feeling like you have to do the thing that you're in the rabbit hole with. You have to focus on cryptocurrency over your relationships. You have to focus on air sports over— like, how similar are those two physical feelings?

Yeah, it's the, it's the same physical feeling, and it's, it feels like the thing that blocks me from you know, sitting down and doing my taxes or registering a car or things that are very mundane. Like, I don't feel— my body doesn't feel in a mundane state to be doing them. It feels like I have to get up and go jump off a cliff.

Right, right, right. So in a weird way, what happens is this natural passion shows up, and then As you start to relive the trauma, maybe it's happening, maybe it's not, of disappointing people around you, that creates an anxiety in you that then gets transferred probably both to them, which makes you want to not be around them, and to your work, which makes you get more hyperfocused and stressed. Is that what we're concluding? What am I missing there, if anything?

Yeah, that sounds very right.

Okay.

One way that I've continued to recreate that is by finding communities and going deep with those communities as I travel the world or whatever, and sort of becoming a part of the community, but then also being like, well, you know, I'm kind of not going to be there. I'm only sort of partially in this community, but I've got all these other communities or I've got this other thing that I'm doing, or I might just get up and go.

Right.

"to the Arctic for a month, and I won't be around, so don't depend on me too much." Right.

So how much of that commitment, or lack thereof, is based on the fact that you also learned as a young kid that you can't trust community? And so, to some degree, there's a way of saying, "No, we can't trust you because you left the church," but the other way of thinking about it as a kid is, "Oh, community is stagnant, and so it can't meet me as I grow into my truth." Right.

Or that community is— there's another kind of mirror to that where I see communities as tending towards homogeneous groupthink. And then I want to get away from that or at least keep distanced from it.

Right.

That relates to something else that's a pattern for me is that I really love to be a contrarian and feel very right when I think everyone else is wrong about something.

Right. All of this early childhood patterning.

Yeah.

Yeah. As if there's a right and a wrong.

Yeah.

Yeah. Right. So today, how does this whole thing cause you pain from this perspective? From seeing it this way, how does it all cause you pain?

Uh, one way it causes pain is that this this anxious feeling in my body is— I guess avoiding that has made it difficult for me to sit down and do basic things.

What's the anxiety avoiding? If you couldn't feel anxiety and you couldn't stay busy, what would you be left to feel over this situation where you're changing and the loved ones around you aren't? Meeting you?

I'd have to feel, you know, the heartbreak of that I change and that I'm not stable. I might be a different person tomorrow than I am today, and other people might be different people they are tomorrow, and that I might feel abandonment or that they might feel abandonment.

Yeah. And I don't remember if we recorded the very, very beginning of this when we said, hey, let's press record, but you said Engineered heartbreak.

Yeah.

So what would be making you engineer heartbreak to avoid heartbreak?

I think there's a way that this might be related to something that I do where I put myself through difficult things to prove that I can handle it. Hmm. It almost seems like there's something subconscious in me that does that with this engineering of heartbreak.

Right. So I know in other podcasts— so this is the coolest thing. It's like we've spoken about the thing that I'm about to speak about, like, I think at least 3 or 4 times in the podcast alone and countless others. But when we're in it, when we're in— when we're reliving that trauma, it's so hard to see it. But that whole idea of we are creating The thing by the way in which we're avoiding it. It is the way in which we're avoiding the emotional experience that we're recreating it in our life. It's the same thing that we've talked about of the cell wants to get to homeostasis. It's like the body continues to produce these early childhood patterns until we can finally feel the thing that we couldn't feel as a kid.

Yeah. And a layer on that is that one of the things that I feel is shame around not feeling the thing, especially now that I intellectually know all of this so well. Yeah, my body just feels not fully up to date on this.

So you're, you're engineering heartbreak that you then avoid. Yeah, is what you're saying. Yeah. Right. And then you get to feel heartbreak/shame for avoiding the thing that you created to feel that you'd not using the feel.

It's almost like it's the shame that I'm recreating. Yeah. It's almost like I've learned to be actually very okay with heartbreak itself, but I'm not okay with shame. Hmm.

Yeah, that's beautiful. So what's wrong with shame?

Hmm.

Like literally, how does shame feel in your system? What is the discomfort of shame in your system physically?

It feels like resisted fear. Which feels like cowardice. And that's something that I've judged myself for my whole life.

All that was in your head. In your body, when you feel shame, what's uncomfortable?

There's a numbing.

Numb is comfortable. They even wrote a song about it, Comfortably Numb.

Well, let me get under that numbing and see what I'm actually numbing out.

Yeah.

There's a feeling of like curling up in a ball. There's a slight sickness to my stomach.

Yeah.

Tightness in my chest and sort of an anticipation of rejection or pain and a hopelessness.

Yeah. So just feel all that for a second. Like, allow all of that to be felt. Just as it is. Don't— you don't have to manufacture anything. You don't have to try. Just as it is. Feel it.

How did you know that I started manufacturing it?

I refuse to answer your intellectual questions right now. Yeah, so notice what's happening. Notice what's happening to the discomfort of shame.

There's a Slight shaking in my stomach and like midsection.

How much more comfortable or uncomfortable is it becoming if you stay with the shame?

It's becoming a little bit more comfortable, but then like my intellect comes in and me is like— and it's just like, oh, it's just because you're not feeling it enough anymore, you're avoiding it.

Right. What happens if feeling it is all that's required? What if it's just— it's just like your little kid that felt shame, like when your mom told you you were responsible for her emotions and that her punishment for you going to hell was somehow your responsibility. Like, what did that kid just need at that point?

I mean, I don't even know that it's fair to say that she told me that. I'm just a kid assuming it.

I mean, she was worried for your soul. Yeah, that was happening.

Yeah, which is love, right?

Exactly. But the point is, what did you need then? What would have made it different for you, better for you in that moment?

Man, I don't know. Like, it's hard to say that what I needed was for my mom to happily accept that she believed I was going to hell.

Right. How about just loving attention? How would that have been as a kid?

Yeah, my diverging beliefs being given loving attention.

Yeah.

Or being given loving attention in my— in my beliefs.

So what makes you think that giving loving attention to your shame right now is somehow not enough, but it would have been enough as a kid?

I mean, it feels— this is interesting— it feels like when I try to give my shame loving attention, it somehow misses. Like, the attention misses the shame in some way. The shame Manages to wiggle out from under the attention.

Yeah, chase it around the room. I know that sounds weird, but chase it around the room trying to give it love. Like, I'm going to love you. You can't get away from me. I'm going to love you.

I can feel it there subtly.

Yeah, it's what kids do, by the way. It's totally what kids do. If kids feel shame and you go to give them love, they just fucking hate it. No, no, no. Like little ones, they'll fight you tooth and nail over it.

Yeah, it's like hiding under the couch and peeking out through the skirt.

Yes, that's right. That's right, exactly.

Yeah, when I, when I try to do this on my own, I immediately think I'm just not doing it good enough or I'm not finding it. Or that I must not be, you know, finding the root of whatever my feeling is.

That's the pattern. That's not the truth of it. That's the pattern. Like, literally, like, were you finding God? Did you get to the root of it? Did you feel like there wasn't— like you weren't quite getting the whole thing? Like, that's the relationship that you were taught. To truth, to love, to feeling life.

Yeah.

You weren't quite getting it, yeah.

Yeah, and that's what I feel with everything.

Yeah.

I was just not quite getting it.

Right. You're also not quite getting it as compared to other people. I mean, I think there's probably some reality to all of us not quite getting it, right? 'Cause it'd be impossible. Right, but in your mind, I've noticed that it's, you know, it's not like you're not quite getting it, like everybody's not quite getting it. It's like, no, you're special and you're not quite getting it. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah, this feeling that I'm special and I'm not quite getting it.

Right, I'm special in my not getting it.

Oh yeah, special in my not getting it. But there's also, you know, I was in gifted classes in school, but also I just didn't do the homework. Just somehow managed to barely be scraping by in those classes. And everybody else, you know, even people who seemingly didn't get the material as much as I felt I got the material, had their shit together in a way that just had them be doing the thing, doing the school, not getting talked to about being behind.

You're like recreating this pattern of being not quite fitting into the social fabric. Yeah. Now you're in a social fabric full of a whole bunch of people who are really smart and not motivated to follow all the rules and have done a whole bunch of creative things and are living, and you still feel like you're not a part. But probably all of them do as well. So yeah, you're not alone even in that.

Yeah, like a question that just routinely comes up for me is, how does, how does anybody like continue to put themselves in a position of working with or relying on me?

Right, that's the pattern. There's no truth to that. However you've done it, you've shown up in your business, you've shown up here, you've shown up in your relationships, many of them for years and years. You can say that, but like the paper, you know, the data is different than what your, what your voice is telling you right now.

Yeah, and that brings me back to the— that piece where I can intellectually know a thing, intellectually know what I even on some level want, and my body doesn't line up with it. And there's a feeling of despair in that.

Yeah, so prove your body's not lining up. That's the story. Prove it. Your body's stressed when you're ignoring your— knowing the commitments that feed you, that nourish you. Your body is aware of the shame that's happening. You know, like, what— how is your body not participating fully here?

So there's, there's a way that I feel that being true. And the more, the more I get off track, the more avoidant I am of the things that I care about, the more stressed I feel. So there's a way that my body is guiding me back towards my truth in that way.

Yeah.

And yet there's something in my body that's like, if that's not happening, there must be some opposing force. And what is that? And how is that my body being in alignment if there's an opposing force pulling me away from what the rest of my system seems to think is alignment?

I think I'm a bit confused in the fact that like it is opposing forces that keep everything in balance. So what, what am I missing?

Maybe there's one of the opposing forces that's just getting too much weight in the decision.

Prove it. Oh, there's this idea that you're stuck on— maybe it's your mind that's the opposing force that thinks that it— like, yeah, like there's this idea that you're stuck on that somehow or another that your body isn't with you.

Yeah, maybe it is the inverse. Maybe it's my mind that's not with me.

In the moment of freeze, what's offline, your body or your mind? Huh.

It's hard to say which, but it does seem like it's true that one of them was offline. It feels like my, like my mind is doing the thing that I describe myself doing to others, to my body. Hmm. Like my mind is flitting around in a million directions, going down rabbit holes, and my body's like, hey, we have something important to do.

Yeah, that's beautiful. That's always the way it works, right? The relationship with the self is reflected in the relationship with the people around us. So right now it's like you— it like— I can sense like a desire for resolution.

Yeah, yeah, there's a strong desire for resolution, which I'm recognizing is wanting myself to change.

And what's the resolution going to get you?

Alignment, joy, accomplishment, connection.

And how is that not here right now?

Stories in my head prevent me from seeing it.

I feel connected to you.

I mean, I feel—

I'm enjoying the conversation.

I feel like we should do a podcast. And then we just like dove into a session.

That's what happened.

Because I don't have my shit together enough to do the podcast. Right.

But there's a tremendous amount of connection and joy and alignment in it. So what? So what? What's the problem?

Because my head said there's a thing I was supposed to do.

Would it have been better than this?

I don't know. We could have had a really vague podcast discussion that I felt like disconnected from and judged myself for not being vulnerable in. We could have done that.

Right, exactly. So since the resolution isn't going to give you anything that you already have, what What is it that you want the resolution for?

To feel like it's done, like complete, like I did it, I got there, it's all better now.

What if that never comes? What if there is no complete, no done, no heaven?

I mean, it would be boring if everything was done.

I mean it even back in the day, right? Like the thing that you dismissed is that there was a finish line when you dismissed the religion.

Mm. And there was also a way that in the religion I was really hanging, like, holding on to this idea of a finish line.

Yeah, that's right.

Like, I actually, when I was a kid, my logical brain was like, well, I'm a Christian. Ideally, I could just kill myself right now and go straight to heaven. Why not do that?

What if this is just the rest of the letting go of the story? Like, the finish line part of the story is now gone.

Yeah, the finish line part of the story has continued to be there all along. Yeah, like, at any moment I'll arrive.

What happens to your sense of self? If you deeply accept that there is no finish line, there is no— you're never done.

I just feel a lot more relaxed in my body now. There's a way that doing work and taking on challenges doesn't feel like the last final sprint before the finish. Yeah. So I feel less pressure.

And so what's, what's left to do about this perceived pattern of abandoning your mom through cryptocurrency and air sports? And since you're never going to completely resolve it, it's never going to be completely done, what's left to do?

I mean, it feels okay to follow rabbit holes now. I feel less shame around rabbit holing.

Yeah, I don't know any human who doesn't rabbit hole. Sometimes it's the post office for 33 years. I don't know any human who doesn't do it. We are creatures of habit.

Yeah, and that's an interesting one. I consider myself there's a way that I shame myself for not being a creature of habit. And I see people having structured habits in their lives that supports them and creates consistency. And I see myself as not having that.

But you do.

Despite us having regular podcast recordings.

Even outside of that, you regularly go down rabbit holes. You regularly get stressed out. It regularly serves you by getting you money and knowledge. Wisdom.

And I regularly recreate heartbreak by crashing and burning in ways that somehow I survive.

Right, exactly. Regularly recreating the circumstances for you to allow a deep heartbreak and shame that's never been allowed before.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel clear. I'm not having like squirmy shame feelings popping up in my body and I'm not having running thoughts about this. And there's a way that that feels disorientingly serene. Yeah.

That makes sense.

Like there's nothing to do, but that's in contrast to the previous story of there's always a million things I'm not doing right. Right.

Where it gets even weirder is that the nothing to do does so much stuff.

And there's a way right now where like, I have your voice in my head from another time of, you know, being afraid something will go away is the first way to make it go away. So I'm like, don't be afraid, this will go away.

That is being afraid that it would go away. Yeah. See, I'm getting it.

Wrong.

All wrong. Me too, right? Yeah. It's the fear that the serenity could go away. Like, that's a possibility. Like, all we did was see what was. We didn't, we didn't do anything. Like, you didn't become a different person. All you had to do was just see what was actually happening and the serenity came in.

But isn't that in some way the state that I was experiencing before going away?

Yeah, the difference is that there's not a doing, there's an undoing.

Yeah.

Right, so it's like, I did something and I need to keep it, is very different than I undid something and saw the truth.

Oh, I see.

Then what do you have to do to keep it?

Yeah, there's a way that my, my way of trying to self-explore this previously was like a stack of doing things on top of doing things to get myself to feel whatever it was that was unfelt.

Yeah.

And that was just a stack of layers pushing back and forth on each other.

Yeah, they were all just in the way of the truth of what you are.

Yeah, and I don't have to do that, right?

Exactly, exactly.

So I mean, what's going to happen next? Am I going to do my fucking taxes or what?

No, I have no idea.

I don't know.

It's good. I don't know what I'm gonna do next either, so it works out just fine.

Yeah, yeah.

So just notice that all the movement— so as you like feel the serenity, as you feel like, oh, this is just myself uncovered rather than something that I've created that I need to keep— notice how much stuff is just— it's just kind of automatic ways in which we cover ourselves. And they're just showing up. And that's the really cool part about this process is that you can just start to see, and especially in these moments of clarity, you can start to see all the ways that you wanna cover yourself up. So you just found one of them, how do I keep it? That's one of the ways that you try to cover yourself up. And then you just found the second one, which is like, will I be able to get shit done? I have to get shit done. Yeah. Think about mice or rats or beavers or dogs. It's like they never have to tell themselves or be worried about getting shit done, but they're always doing shit. All, you know, if they're, if they're not sleeping, they're doing something.

Yeah. But none of them are building companies and promoting podcasts. Yeah.

Well, you're not licking your balls. So dogs are, how do you know?

We're not on video. Yeah.

Yes, they're not doing as complicated things. They're not capable yet. We think we would stop doing the things that are interesting to us. It's like, it's silly.

Yeah, I guess the most complicated things I've done have been things that have just sort of fallen together as I've been doing whatever.

Yeah, exactly.

Even the planning that brings me to places that I couldn't just wander to.

Just notice every one of these things, and they'll come with a little visceral sensation with them. Is the sense— I'm making the noise of the sensation, right? It's like they'll come, they'll each come with that, and that's kind of the habitual way to cover ourselves up.

Yeah, there's like a tensening that comes with it.

Yeah, exactly. So, which is awesome, they're going to come and then you get to see them and, and, and see through them. And that's the— what if you just sat for the next 3 weeks, 'cause I know you create a life where you can do this, like for the next 3 weeks, just watch 'em come and see through them.

Oh, but Joe, I create a life where technically I could do this, but what I've actually been doing is thinking about all the things I'm not doing.

Ah, yeah. Just to say one other piece to it, which I think is important, is there is a nervous system piece to this, which is if you're operating under stress for an extended period of time, your body will go into a physical depression and not be motivated. So like, that is— that's natural, right? Like, if a deer has— gets chased by a tiger for 20 days straight, it's gonna definitely need to like sit down and do nothing for a bit.

Hmm.

Yeah, there is a physical component to it.

Yeah, it's interesting. There's this like sitting down and doing nothing but being stressed about it. Oh gosh, requires that release. And then the depression, it's like, see, I'm doing nothing, I'm— that's why I'm depressed. I gotta do something, and then it loops back on itself.

That's exactly how it works. Yeah, you see this with like big-time CEOs, and when they sell their company, it's like bathrobe for 2 years. See it all the time. And then it's like, yeah, it'd be a bathrobe for 3 to 6 months if they weren't telling themselves they should be up and doing something all the time. But because they tell themselves they have to be up and doing something all the time, it It takes, you know, 3 times as long to recover, 4 times as long to recover. Yeah. Okay, well, enjoy the serenity.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm just going to take today to do that.

Yeah. What a total pleasure.

Yeah. Thank you, Joe.

Thanks for a great time.

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