Carla Piñeyro Sublett on Finding Compassion in Self-Indulgence

And as I was going up on stage, one of my peers grabbed me and he said, "Hey Carla, I want to tell you something." And I said, "What?" And he said, "I love you." And that just doesn't happen. It's wild. But since doing this work, not only have I felt differently, somehow it's given people the permission to be their authentic selves and be open with me.

Welcome to The Art of Accomplishment, where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease. Alright everybody, today I'm speaking with Carla Piñero Siblett. I'm really excited about this conversation. Carla is the Chief Marketing Officer and Senior Vice President at IBM. She's also a recognized leader in building a better society by the Aspen Institute, serving on their Board of Trustees and as a member of its Henry Crown Fellowship class of 2016. The following year, she was named a Woman to Watch by Inc. magazine. Wow. Yeah, that's a lot, Carla.

Hi, Brett. It's good to see you.

Yeah, good to see you too. So tell me a little bit about your journey, and I'd really love to dive into something in particular that you've learned about yourself through doing this work that has impacted your life and your business and really just changed your world.

There are so many things. Um, I have to say, this work has really changed my life. Both personally and professionally. And I had no idea coming into it how big the impact would really be. But I, I'm truly grateful because it has transformed every aspect of my life and really had a very positive impact on the relationships that I have.

Tell me a little bit about what, what Carla was like prior to encountering this particular form of development, of exploration. And what brought you to it? What, what brought you here?

Yeah, so I was already at an inflection point leading up to the work, but prior to that inflection point, I would say I was a super intense individual, uh, very driven, very defined by my work and my job. Um, in 2017, I came to the realization that I was disconnected from the people that mattered most to me, and I realized that I had lost meaningful connection to my husband and children, uh, and in that moment decided to quit my job, unenroll the kids from school, and travel the world. So that was leading up to this work, uh, and in search of connection to my heart. It was about at the end of that journey where someone introduced me to Joe, and, uh, and I began working with Joe in earnest in the months that followed. And for me, it was the culmination of that search for connection to my heart that brought Joe into my life.

What was it that you learned about yourself in those first interactions that made you recognize that this was going to be a fruitful avenue of exploration?

Well, for starters, I will say my first one-on-one with Joe, about 5 minutes in, I said, holy shit, you're a therapist. And I hate therapy. I hate anything ever pertaining to— or I used to— anything ever pertaining to it. And I felt like it was self-indulgent. And I was really the sort of person that, that gleaned value from providing for others and putting others' needs before myself. So initially going into the work, once I first got to know Joe, I have to tell you, I was extremely resistant, Brett. And I felt like I don't have the time for this. I'm a mom, I'm working. I need to be spending time with my team and my family. And I don't need to dwell on all this stuff. So I put up quite the fight going in. It was really interesting to see how Joe responded to that, but I eventually came out the other side and I'm so glad that I did.

Tell me a little bit about that moment of having, of coming out the other side. When did this really start to crack for you? And the thing that I'm kind of pointing to here is this resistance to self-indulgence. And this is something that's very common that people have, which is, "I don't need to spend the time on myself. I don't need to spend resources or indulge in exploring and becoming more aware of who I am and aware of what my wants are because, you know, what's more important is I'm taking care of everyone else in my life." And it seems like that's a flavor of the resistance that you brought into it. What, what started to crack that open for you?

For me, the significant shift happened at a week-long course that Joe holds called Groundbreakers. And, uh, he calls it a retreat, but we joke with him that there's nothing retreat about it. It's definitely an intensive. And it was during that week that my heart literally broke open and I realized my full capacity for love. And I know that sounds ridiculous. But up until that point, even though I was searching for connection to my heart, I was very much operating from a place of mind and gut. And I think if I'm being really honest, I was always holding a little piece of myself back. Whether it was for fear of being hurt, I don't know that I fully appreciated and understood what my full capacity for love was, both for self and others. And that shift happened during that week. And the impact that followed was really profound in my life.

What does that mean for you to have been mostly operating from your mind and your gut?

It means I was totally disconnected from my body. Every move that I made was cerebral and intentional and thoughtful in a way, but I wasn't really listening to my feelings or my emotions. I'd really decided to push those down. And what was pointed out to me is that from a very young age, we're trained out of our emotions. Particularly for women in the South, you know, don't get angry, don't cry. And then growing up in corporate America, and particularly in tech in the '90s, that was just exacerbated. You know, if you were a woman and emotional, that was just the end of your career. And so I had learned to operate from that place as a way of surviving, or at least that's what I told myself. And so long as I could separate myself from what I actually felt, that it was impossible for me to be my most effective at my job and how wrong, how very wrong I was. And I realized that in the weeks and months that followed Groundbreakers.

Tell me a little bit more about how that suppression of those, of those emotions, a lot of it being societal, much of it sort of specific to being a woman in the South and then exacerbated by being a woman in tech, especially in the '90s. How was that impacting the way that you made decisions and the way that you showed up professionally? And also, how did that impact your personal life?

So I made decisions based on what I was going to— what was going to serve my family over myself. So I put my own needs on the back burner. But then something really interesting had started to happen, Brett, as I got older and more recently was I started to realize that decision-making became difficult. I started to loop. And get stuck. And I, I learned through this work that that was a sign of emotion that needed to be moved. And it was extremely clearing for me once I had let myself have access, once I was able to— once I learned to have access to things like fear and grief and anger. It was immensely clarifying, and it enabled me to make better decisions. And it was a massive gift. And with that came along a tremendous amount of joy and love.

So you mentioned at this Groundbreakers retreat that your heart broke open. And it sounds like this was a rapid experience that happened sort of in a moment. And suddenly you became aware of how much capacity you had to love that had already been there all the time, but you just hadn't been connected to. And I'm curious, in that moment, what was it that opened up in you? What did you— what did you see that you hadn't seen before, and how did you come to see it?

So I can explain what happened to you, and then I can explain maybe, Brett, what happened after the fact. It's a little bit hard to describe, but, um, after the exercise that we did, um, we were moving— we were moving grief, and anger came up for me. I should say rage came up for me, which quite shocked— quite surprised me. It shocked me. And I had a pretty significant emotional release And at the end of that release, I was, I was laying on a mat and I looked up to see one of my colleagues come into the room and his face looked like that of a little boy. And I stretched out my arms to him and he came down on the mat and curled up in my arms almost like a child. And this is someone who's much larger than I am. And Throughout the week, he'd mentioned to us that he had a lot of trouble sleeping. He was struggling with insomnia. And as soon as I held him, his whole body collapsed and he went boneless and started to snore. He fell completely asleep and we started to laugh about it. After the fact, when we were debriefing, I expressed the fact that I felt like my heart had broken open and that I just was really feeling this overwhelming sense of love. And my friend and peer in the group said, and I was the first recipient, I felt it wash all over me. So it wasn't just something that I was feeling, the people around me were feeling it too. And the response was really beautiful. And then coming out of that week, the very first thing I kind of broke the rules, we were supposed to kind of do a slow reentry. And I went straight into hosting an offsite for our CEO and my peers remotely via Zoom because it was in the middle of COVID And so there I was at 6:30 in the morning from Tahoe rounding everybody up on the Zoom call and doing a check-in. And we get to me for the check-in and Brett, I'll be damned if I didn't burst into tears. I mean, huge sobs. And prior to this, I would say I'd cried maybe 3 times in the last 15 years, the birth of my children and the death of a friend. So to have this sort of emotion on this call was pretty remarkable. So in response to those tears, one of my colleagues on the, on the call said, hey, I'd really like to hug you right now. Would it be okay if we hugged you? And everybody went up to their screens and hugged their cameras. And then we went on with our day. It was really powerful. And even my boss's coach was on the line and he texted me on the side and was like, holy cow, what did you just get out of? Did you have an ayahuasca experience? You're like totally transformed. And he was like, your energy is so different and it's beautiful. And at the end of that day, we were doing a checkout. And one of my peers said, I just want to say how much I admire Carla. And whenever I'm stuck and trying to figure out what to do, I think about her and what she would do. And again, I started to bawl again. And the closeness that that brought from that team moving forward was really, really powerful. It was also my realization that I needed to leave that job, and my boss saw straight through me in that moment. So that's what the work looked like.

Yeah. What was that like to have had that realization and also have your boss see straight through you? I assume that what you mean by that is he saw that you saw that you needed to leave that job?

Yeah, as soon as the meeting ended, he called me and he said, "What time do you land?" And by the time I landed, he was at my front door the next day. We went on a walk. And I don't know that I fully come to appreciate that I needed to leave my job at that point. I will tell you, on that walk, I was able to state my wants and needs very clearly without any shame, which was super empowering. And I will say that since when the time did come for me to leave, I felt like I had spoken my piece. So, um, it was a tremendously clean and high-integrity way to exit a role, and, and I felt really good about it. And I also maintain relationships with that team to this day. And funny enough, I ran into members from that team at my first speaking engagement coming out of COVID And as I was going up on stage, one of my peers grabbed me and he said, "Hey, Carla, I want to tell you something." And I said, "What?" And he said, "I love you." You know, and that just doesn't happen. You know, it's wild. But since doing this work, not only have I felt differently, somehow it's given people the permission to be their authentic selves. And be open with me.

Yeah, that moment that you had described at Groundbreakers where, you know, a grown man, you said colleague, was he actually a work colleague of yours or a colleague in the program?

He was part of the L12 group. So I'm part of Joe Hudson's L12 group. So it's me plus 11 other folks that he coaches. And it was one of our L12 colleagues.

So it was a colleague in the program, not somebody that you work with, but you had the experience of a grown man curling up in your lap and you seeing him as more than just a grown man, but as a child and finding your capacity to love him in all of what he was in that moment. Clearly other people saw it and they felt it and they described it. And I'm curious how that impacted the way that you see how you saw your boss, for example, when you came back and when you went for that walk with him. How did you show up differently having had that experience?

With a tremendous amount of compassion and understanding and patience. Now when I see that people are in fear in the workplace or that they're grieving something or that they're angry about something, I can see it for what it is. And not be triggered by it and not take it on and show up in a way that, that holds it for them if they need me to, but is not consumed by it. And I think, you know, Brett, one of the other big changes in me was going into the work because, you know, I saw myself as always giving to others, but in reality what I was doing is managing everybody and managing everybody's emotions and trying to keep everybody happy. And letting go of that has been massive because what I didn't realize is that that wasn't fun or enjoyable for the people that I love. And, you know, I thought I was serving them all this time, but in reality, I was— it doesn't feel good to admit, but it was a form of manipulation.

Yeah, I'm curious how much dropping that projection, dropping that way of relating makes it so that others could show up and tell you, hey, I really want to tell you that I love you.

Yeah.

Because they might feel that that is something that you might receive and not be contrary to whatever plans or management you have for them.

That's exactly right. I mean, when you get out of the way, it's really remarkable what happens. So I'll give you another example. I just came back from my second long intensive with Joe. And while the movement wasn't as significant there during the week-long as it was for Groundbreakers, the movement after the fact was really significant for me. And it was because a big part of the week was dropping roles, the roles that we play. And manager is one of them for me, and managing to outcomes. And during that week, it was my husband's birthday coming up on Friday, and I was gonna fly back Friday and was running the risk of not making his birthday. And all the years my husband and I have been together, I've never missed his birthday. I always make a really big deal out of birthdays. And funny enough, because I was in the week-long, I just didn't get to planning anything. And rather than feeling shame or guilt around that, I just let it go. And the wildest thing happened. As I was away, I started to get text messages from my 17-year-old son. Hey, Mom, could you send me Dad's friend's contact information? Hey, Mom, I grabbed your credit card. Is it okay if I buy Dad a new golf club? Hey, Mom, I'm going to order a cake for Dad and some barbecue, and I'm going to invite his friends over on Friday. So with me stepping out of that role and dropping that role, I'll be damned if my 17-year-old son didn't show up for it in a way that I never would have thought to ask. And he showered his dad in love and made it a really big deal. And my husband in return never felt more loved because his own son planned everything. So it was really, really special. And I've seen that happen in the workplace too, but just at home, that was really wild to see. And really gratifying.

Yeah, I'm really curious about the difference of the experience of your son from, you know, you doing all the planning and like asking your son to do a certain to-do list of things and him just coming up with these ideas and taking full ownership of them.

Yeah, I mean, it was better than what I would have come up with. And I'm sure it felt a lot better to him because he initiated it all and he did it from a place of love and what he wanted for his dad.

Yeah. And so now I'm curious about how, if you find yourself no longer taking the management role or being aware of when you're in that role of being the manager and the overseer, how do you relate to perhaps the fear that might have underlied that, which is that if I don't manage everybody around me, things won't get done or everyone else will have to do everything for me and then they'll resent me. How has that structure shifted or evolved?

I've had a slightly nuanced flavor of it, Brett. So my flavor of that has been, I really kind of zeroed out at that retreat. I had lost all the roles. And one of the things that, that Joe said to me coming out of it is, don't build back too soon. And we're almost 2 months out, and I still haven't built back. And the fear for me has taken more of a flavor of Wow, do I not care anymore? Am I disengaged? Am I depressed? Is this okay? But then what's really wild is I'm starting to see it play out in really beautiful ways. Like when I get out of the way, it gets replaced by something better. And I was on a call probably a few weeks after the, the retreat, and it was probably one of my favorite meetings to date in this new job. And we had about 8 people on the call. And it was people, early-stage career, veterans of the industry, discussing the new brand of the company that we were going to roll out. And I just asked questions in VU format. So how, what questions, vulnerably, impartially, with empathy and wonder. And through that, something which I've recently learned to be called group intelligence took over, and the group began to push each other and challenge each other and debate and push further. And title didn't matter, level didn't matter, and we got to the best possible outcome. And all I did was just facilitate. I asked, I asked questions. So That's what it looks like now versus before. I would start the call with, hey, here's what we need to achieve before this call is over, this is what I think we should do, blah blah blah blah blah, and really start to dictate. And this was very different, and it was— what came out on the other side was much better than what I could have envisioned or what I would have planned myself. And it really did leverage the group, so the, the sum of the parts were greater.

Yeah, how much have you seen that trickle down in the teams that you manage and then the way that they show up to the teams that they manage? How has that permissioning of letting go of that role and facilitating the group intelligence, how has that percolated through the team or through the company if at all, regardless of others having contact with this work directly through Joe or just being in contact with you? Experiencing your change?

It's a few different ways. I had a peer tell me early on, probably, well, a few months in, offered to give me some feedback. And I said, yeah, of course, please. And he said, I love your feminine vibe. You have brought this energy to our team that we really needed. We were just a ton of testosterone, and now you bring humor and you laugh at yourself and you're vulnerable when you don't understand something. And if you don't get something right, you say how you're going to fix it. And, and he said, and you've given us all permission to do the same. And it's been super fun to have you on the team. And I'm grateful that you're here. And that for me was just like, wow, that was the most, that was the ultimate compliment. That felt amazing. The other way that I've seen it show up is Interestingly enough, I'm triggered when people don't ask questions, when people talk at each other. And I've started to say it out loud. And so now members of my team and my organization are starting to ask how/what questions, even though they haven't been through VU. They're starting to see me do it and they're starting to model it. And then the last part I would say, Brett, that I'm seeing is I'm starting to see more emotion and love and openness with emotion. I just pulled my team together for the first time in person. And the first thing that one of the people on my team noticed was, wow, there is a lot of emotion in the room. And I said, absolutely. And that's awesome. You know, people are really expressing themselves vulnerably. And I almost wonder if it's not just related to me and the work, but also related to this time that we've just been through. And it's just these two things coming together at the perfect time, which is people are also really longing for connection. So I think that makes people more open to me in this state.

With the way that you'd seen people in that role, having that role fall away, now it sounds like you're able to see a deeper level of what people want and what they need, rather than just seeing what they want or need from a to-do list standpoint or from getting things done. You're also seeing a deeper layer of what their emotional needs are and the underlying social mammalian need for connection that we all have. And that's, it sounds like that's really helping you to really see more of the value and the potential in a team, as well as show up in a way that brings people together to be communicating in a more effective way.

Yeah, and I'll even add something to it, Brett. So I've come to learn that my wants and needs are the wants and needs of the organization. So I feel that it's my responsibility to express them, whereas before I pushed them down.

Mm-hmm. Right.

And now when my team is expressing their wants and needs, and sometimes I have to pull it out of them, I literally validate them by saying, hey, if you are feeling a certain way, it's because your team or your organization feels that way. And you owe it not only to yourself, but to them to say it out loud. It doesn't have to be perfect, it can be messy, but let's talk about it. The other thing that we talk a great deal about is, and this was something that one of the L12 colleagues said that has really stuck with me, how cool is it that your body shines a light on the very thing that you need to deal with? So if there's discomfort in your system, if you literally don't feel good about something, if there's resistance or friction in you, that's a thing we need to go deal with. Let's go unlock that. And, uh, and I've made an open invitation for folks to bring those things out into the open.

It sounds like that journey through the fear of self-indulgence has unlocked your ability to see others' needs as valid, whereas when, when you were living in, living in the belief system that your needs, getting your needs met, doing therapy with yourself would be self-indulgent and that you needed to take care of others. There also seemed to be this way that you saw others as not being able to take care of their own needs, and if they did, that might be self-indulgent perhaps. And that projection started to fall away when you started to really let yourself have needs and let yourself honor your feelings as something pointing to some deeper truth for you that is good for your entire company or your family.

Oh my God, that's so profound, Brett. I had not realized that. I had not realized that until you just said it, but it's very true and I've seen it in my own children. I've never felt more connected to my kids than I do right now, whereas before, if one of my kids would throw a fit or be upset about something or cry, I would try and make them feel better, but now I sit with them in it. And if they feel like crying, let's cry, let's let it out. If they feel like having an anger session, let's wail on the bed with the tennis racket, and it's been transformative, and I never realized it until you just said it. That's so crazy. I wasn't meeting people's needs at all. I wasn't validating their needs at all. I was just trying to fix it all the time, and I think that's why the response to me has been so different. Wow, thank you.

Yeah, it was just a question.

Yeah, no, there was an insight in it. Yeah, yeah.

So I'm curious what advice you would have for somebody who's been listening to this, who feels connected to, to that, that trauma that you described of not feeling like they can indulge in their own feelings, or that it's safe to, or that society will allow it, or that it's even good for them or for others around them. And they don't have the availability to come to a course. Maybe they could do one of the online courses, but, you know, maybe they're not going to make it to a Groundbreakers and have the experience that you just described. But what would you have to say to somebody who feels that way? And what advice would you have for them to, to be able to feel through this and move through this on their own from learning from your experience?

So Joe says something really beautiful that I quote all the time. Which is Joy is the matriarch of all the emotions, and her children are Fear, Grief, and Anger. And in order for her to live in her house, she has to be with her children. So I think it starts with giving yourself permission to feel all the emotions and to access them and to reconnect to them, because in that there is clarity of decision-making and It can also bring tremendous clarity to, to wants and needs, which is the second part of my advice, which is get clear on what you want and need and articulate it, because that gives permission for those around you that you care about to articulate their wants and needs. And it's one of the, the best ways to drive a true meaningful relationship with someone, whether it's a work colleague or for a friend or family member. And I think the last thing is get curious. Ask lots of questions, in particular when in conflict. If you're in conflict with someone or something, get curious, get into wonder, ask a ton of how/what questions. It's unbelievable if you have an open mind what you'll learn and unlock. And sometimes the very thing that you thought was the point of contention actually ends up being a solution.

How do you experience the difference between asking an open-ended how/what question from curiosity, a curiosity that's deeply felt in your body with true openness to what you might get back, versus asking a how/what question formulaically as a defense or from an unknown trigger? How is that something that's shifted for you, and what are some breadcrumbs that you could offer for for others who might be walking that path?

I think early days when I was learning the VUE format, trying to ask how, what questions vulnerably, impartially, with empathy and wonder, I was missing the impartial part because I was trying to drive to an outcome with my questions. I was trying to get people to see a certain point or to change their mind. And that's not the process. The process is to literally get curious and to remove your partiality from it. So for me, the difference is asking questions from a place of, huh, I wonder what this person is really feeling. What about this particular issue is creating fear in them? And that makes all the difference. If you're not trying to lead the witness or drive to an outcome or trying to prove a point or change somebody's mind, what you can learn is really profound.

Yeah, that impartiality is often the trickiest part. And I think you pointed to it there when when you were talking about being curious about what they might be afraid of, I find that I'm unable to be curious of someone else's fear unless I'm aware of my own. And so part of, part of coming to that impartiality is finding out what, what makes me want to drive a conversation towards a particular outcome, and then what's the helplessness that I need to feel to let go of that particular level of attachment to outcome so that I can be curious. If I'm allowing myself to feel my fear, then I can allow myself to feel and be with their fear.

That's interesting because that is the other side of the coin, right? I mean, if you are triggered in a conversation and you take a moment to check in yourself and with yourself and try to understand what is it that I'm feeling, is it that there's something here that I need to deal with that's unrelated or related? Or do I have a boundary that's being crossed? Or what, what's happening in my system right now? Doing that check-in before you start to try to impact the other person is so valuable. And that's another skill that I've learned that has been tremendously powerful. As a Latina, I'm pretty trigger happy.

Yeah, yeah, this circles back to something you said earlier about the way that you showed up in your team where you found that you became triggered when others weren't showing up curiously or when they were just talking at or past each other. And that you said that now having had this, gone through this work, this process, you've been owning that trigger, not being triggered. You've been calling it out, which is different than not being aware of your trigger and then trying to change the world around you, but just saying, hey, wow, I'm triggered right now. What I want is, I don't know, how do you do that when that comes up? When you're in a meeting and you feel that trigger and you're wanting, more curiosity in the room. What does that exactly look like internally and then externally?

There are a few phrases that I'm starting to employ pretty consistently. You're bringing my attention to them. One is, oh wow, I need to call out that I'm triggered right now, and here's what's happening in my system. Help me understand X and X. And I'm just really open about it. And then the second is I've started to say, hey, I need to be vulnerable right now, and here's, here's what I'm feeling. Using that language, interestingly enough, I'm starting to see that people within my organization use that language. And even people outside of our organization, even partners and vendors have started to use that language with me, which is super interesting.

Oh, wow.

And it softens the ground for the conversation because you're like, oh, wow, this person is afraid to say what they're going to say right now, or they're unsure how it's going to hit me. So I'm going to treat them with some compassion. And it's been super fascinating to see it employed.

Yeah, that's fascinating. There's a couple things going on there that I see. One is that by naming the vulnerability that it is for you to own your trigger and bring it consciously into the space, I mean, first of all, people are gonna— either they're gonna notice you're triggered anyway, and that might trigger them, or they're not going to notice you're triggered and also not notice that they're triggered, and then you'll both be in a dynamic. And so speaking to the vulnerability that it is for you to shine light on the trigger that is already in the room, already impacting people, then that permissions them to do the same for themselves.

It does. And it's wild to even see the body language when you say those phrases. So you can see people go from tense to relaxed. You can see shoulders drop. You would think it would be the other way around, but people soften to the conversation when you're that open. And it creates an environment of trust.

I also noticed something about the way that you describe this language and the way that you the way that you bring the trigger up is that I don't feel any implication that somebody needs to change it for you. There's an owning of the trigger and it's your trigger. It's, there's something going on in my system right now and it's telling me something. You know, I want, I want to know more about what it is that you're saying to me. I want to know what's, what's underneath that. I'm, and there's a, there's a way that you're curious about it because you're not avoiding feeling that feeling. And demanding the curiosity or, you know, whatever it is that is bringing that trigger up in you. And that seems, that seems like a really powerful thing. Because if you bring, if you bring trigger into the workspace, but it's unowned, then that can create a lot of unsafety. And if you bring it in, in the way that you described, then it's just a permissioning for people to be humans and to have their, have their feelings be present in the room. And then you get that higher higher bandwidth communication with people that happens when feelings are welcome.

Exactly. And I want people to realize, yes, there are going to be things that trigger you every day, all day, and this is a safe place. And you can tell me if I've triggered you, if someone else has triggered you. Um, it's information. It's been really fun to watch people open up in that way. I think the other thing that I've done, Brett, is, um, I used to— pre-this work, I used to say, okay, There's an action here. I want to give an action, and here's the action, and here's who has to do it. Now I just say, I want and need X.

Yeah, how does that— how does that land in people differently from the first way?

The first few times it was interesting. No one picked it up, and because they were so used to my saying, there's an action here, uh, but now it's really happening, which is What's super cool is folks will respond with, instead of me kind of giving an action to somebody that's aligned to their job function, now folks who actually want to take on the challenge regardless of their function will jump in and be like, "Oh, that's what you want me to— I think I can help. I got you." Or even better, sometimes I'll have multiple people say, "You know what, Carla, we're going to go work on that together and we'll come back to you," which has been super cool to see too.

Yeah, that seems like it lets go of some of the requirement for you to coordinate the room and allow more of that group intelligence to come up.

Exactly.

Where there's an impulse in somebody, they can just jump in.

Exactly.

Yeah, that's fascinating. So to close this up, I'd love for you to tell me a story of how you showed up in your family in this new way that you bring your triggers into this space either your own trigger, or maybe somebody in your family who was kind of modeling this, or who kind of picked this up, or was permissioned by the way you showed up to, to really own a trigger in a way that was super healthy for the, for the relationship?

Well, I'll tell a funny story. And then I'll tell the real story. When I, when I first started to do the work, my daughter would get upset at things. And if I would start to manage her, she would stop me and say, you told me to express my emotions, I'm trying to express my emotions. And, and so it was really sweet because she would call me out on it if I would ever revert back. I think the, the biggest response is what I said earlier, Brett, was the dropping of roles has created space for my husband and daughter and son to step into different roles. The family dynamic is different and there's a lower level of anxiety in the family dynamic. And I feel extremely, extremely connected to my children. I even find that my children are more affectionate with me than ever before. We've always been an affectionate family, but it's a big deal when your 17 and 14-year-old are still affectionate with you. And there's a real deep connection there. And I think the last piece, and this is probably one of the ones that is the most special to me, is my kids are really honest with me. They talk to me about stuff that most teenagers don't talk to their parents about. And there's this mutual respect an openness there that I always dreamed of having with my kids, but now is actually playing out. Wow. And we talk about all the things you're not supposed to talk about with teenagers, and really openly, and it's really beautiful.

Yeah, that's, that's amazing. I'm curious how, how rapidly that shift occurred in your relationship with your kids.

Coming out of the first Groundbreakers, it was immediate. Much like my friend and colleague described my love washing all over him, I could see that happen with my family and I could see their response to me.

So you showed up and without having created any new history of experience with them, they just saw, they felt you in a different way and that allowed them to, that permissioned them to open up.

Yeah, it was energetic. And then coming out of this second one, I would say The shifts have been even greater and it's just accelerated. Been really, really huge gift for me personally and professionally because we're one person. That's the other gift of all of this is, you know, there's no work persona and home persona. It's all one person.

Yeah.

We take all this stuff from home into the workplace and vice versa.

Yeah. And if we, if we don't own that, we bring our personal life into the workplace. We pretend that they're separate. Then we just show up with a bunch of unspoken subtext that gets in the way.

That's right, and undermine ourselves and our teams.

Well, thank you so much, Carla. I really, really love this conversation, and I'm so glad that you joined us.

Thank you. This has been such a gift, Brett. I really appreciate it.

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