Healing Shame by Being Ourselves (Coaching Session)

To heal my shame, I need to feel it and like feel through it and learn about it.

Welcome to The Art of Accomplishment, where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease. Hey everyone, today's episode is a coaching session between Joe and an anonymous listener of our podcast. The session begins with our guest expressing a sincere desire to show up more fully in life, despite fears of offending the people around him. Let's dive in and see where this goes.

Yeah, tell me what's happening. What do you want to work on? What's going on? Look at that smile. Look at that smile.

Oh, I've been doing my best to find out where I'm stuck. And what I am landed on is like this being myself. And like, how do I do that? For example, at work, like, how do I interrupt people? How do I say what I want without it feeling like I'm attacking them?

Just like feeling like it to you or feeling like it to them? What do you mean?

My projection, I guess. Okay.

My fear. There's actually something that you said before, which is really interesting to me. You said, I'm trying to figure out how I'm stuck.

Yeah.

What makes it not obvious? What makes you need to figure that out?

Because I was feeling like I was doing great. Like, oh, I'm like in a good place now, a good process. Things are moving. And like, oh, I'm working with Joe. Okay, let's find a stuck place. And like, I can't just say everything is going well.

So then I'm like, hey, what makes you not be able to say that?

This is great. Oh, oh yeah, what makes— because I have to deliver quality.

So it's, it's the same thing, it's the same thing.

Right?

Not being able to say what you think, whether it's positive or negative, whether you think you're interrupting or whether— I'm wondering, are both of them around quality? How is your mind conflating, if at all, quality and being polite or quality and offending people?

I'm sure you're onto something because now my mind just went like, mm. Quality, like I want to deliver quality, or maybe I have a should. And then there's this, I want to be myself.

Yeah. So what makes you think that who you are isn't quality?

I have this belief that people can't handle me. I'm confident within myself, like, oh, I know shit. Like I know stuff I'm good at. My work, for instance. And I'd like, but like, oh, but people get offended.

And okay, so who has provided quality who hasn't gotten— who hasn't offended people? Like, can you point to one person?

The person, like, I felt like Martin Luther King was the name that showed up.

Oh, he offended the heck out of people.

Yeah. And I know so little about him. There was a whole bunch—

there was a whole bunch of white folks who are totally pissed at that dude.

Yeah, you're very right. Maybe, maybe he showed up in my mind like, because he— it's so clear, like, like the clips I've seen from his speech. Yeah, he's just, he's just himself 100%, and that's what I'm scared of.

You say it's about quality, but let's go back to the question: who has delivered quality who hasn't offended people?

Who is Lewis Collett? No one. I can't, um, no, like that kind, no, no, I know people popping up in my mind.

It's a bit of a trick question because like, who do you know who hasn't offended people?

Now that you say it like that. So what makes me want to—

let's say I could do it. Let's say there's a button and we could push that button and you would never offend anybody again.

Yeah.

Would you want me to push that button?

There's a hesitation.

Ah, yeah, right.

Yeah. Yeah. First it's like, yes. And then quite quickly, no, but then I can't be myself or I can't like say my meaning or like do my work.

What would it look like if you couldn't offend anybody? Like, that's it. Button pressed?

Well, there's two versions. The one where I'm like going out being an ass to everyone and like they're all okay with it, like, oh, okay. But then it's like, it's like they don't accept me. They can't, they just ignore me. So they do, they don't deal with me. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean the other way, meaning that the other way where like when I don't do anything, well, then I'm not myself.

Beyond who you are, literally, what would it look like?

Oh, it would look like what I'm trying to do, like, like trying, like being this completely different person to everyone. And then, but then like once two people other than me gets in the same room with me, like it collapses because I can't, like, I can't please them both.

Yeah, right now Say something that you are absolutely 100% won't offend me.

You have a blue sweater.

Right. So that's a pretty good guess. But there's definitely somebody who would be offended if you said you have a blue sweater. There would be maybe some fashion person's like, this isn't blue. This is periwinkle. You stupid oaf. Like, I put hours into this sweater. So that because it's periwinkle and you just call it blue, like you don't understand my genius of fashion. It's periwinkle.

Yeah.

Somebody somewhere is going to be offended that it's a blue sweater. Maybe it's like a Crip and a Blood, right? Like, I don't know, like wearing blue could be offensive to some group of people on some, you know?

Oh no. Like I got afraid. Oh, is it a sweater? I can only see like your shoulder.

I just don't even know how it would look because you would have to be able to read everybody's mind and know exactly what they wanted to say and never say anything besides that, or say exactly what they wanted you to say and you could never say anything besides that.

Yeah, that doesn't leave much.

But, but feel it for a second. Like, literally feel what it would be like to walk through the world only saying things that you knew.

It's like, it's like I'm disappearing. It's like I'm meeting someone and there's like, there's no me. There's just like a reflection of their, uh, their wants and shoulds.

Yeah. And that would be tricky because a lot of people get really pissed when you reflect who they are back to them. Yeah.

Yeah, that's true.

Yeah. So what percentage of the time do you want to not offend people?

Well, I don't want to offend everyone all the time. Uh, that would even be hard.

That would also be impossible. Yeah, like, you can't— the most offensive people still have fans.

Yeah, and they're doing their best. Okay, well, do not offend.

If you could control it, which you can't control, how would you control it? What, what would be the exact dial setting you would put towards your offending of others? Since it's not no offense.

Okay. I want to not offend others somewhere above 50%. Okay.

So the dial would be, I can offend people 50% of the time, but maximum, maximum, maximum 50% of the time.

I can offend. Yeah.

Okay. So let's look at that. Let's see what that would actually be like. Let's say there's somebody who's just offended by everything. So what, how would you, deal with that?

Like, then I would have to make up for it with someone else, because then that person— okay, you're 100% offended, then I need to find someone to get— yeah.

Name a person who you think operates in the world with a greater 50% offense rate. Okay, okay, I'm thinking, going through people at work, So just so you know, somebody's offended by you currently listening to this podcast, but go ahead. He laughs too much. He's not going— oh yeah, and you smile. Notice you smile. You actually kind of laugh at it.

Yeah. Oh, it's so, it's so mixed. Yeah, so part of me is smiling. After all of this.

Yeah. Okay. So who has the net 51 or greater net offense average? Like, I'm, I'm thinking of just that it's that difficult tells me, even if you are right, you know, just that it's that difficult tells me that the probability of you being that person is pretty low. By just, yeah, who you are.

Yeah. And also, if I can think of someone, I'm realizing, yeah, but that's just my relationship to that person.

Correct. That's right.

Yeah. And also, like, when I stop to think, like, I know I don't offend most people most of the time, right?

Right. Even somebody like the most offensive politician that you've ever seen like somehow or another gets close to 50% of the votes. Yeah.

Right.

And even if people aren't voting for them, doesn't mean they're not offended by them. They might find it humorous or disturbing, but maybe not offense. If you had to choose, okay, you could be yourself or you could offend people 51% of the time. Like you either have to offend people 51% of the time and be yourself, or you have to be yourself and offend people 51% of the time, right? Or not offend— not be yourself and therefore not offend people 50% of the time. How?

Yeah, if I got that correct, like, yeah, my gut tells me I want to offend people then.

Okay.

Yeah, I want to be fine with it.

Yeah.

And I want to do it in a way—

how are you not fine with it now? You're offending people now. All the time, daily. And yet you, here you are sitting here talking about it as it— because that might offend people more. You're on, like, you're doing this podcast and that's going to definitely offend some people. So how are you not fine with it currently?

Okay, okay, I'll play. So, okay, I'm fine with it now. So then I'm curious, so what happens today in a meeting? Like, someone was talking too much. And like, I'm confident with myself, okay, I have the information I need, I want to stop this meeting. And I did eventually, but like, there's this, no, I can't, she's in the middle of a sentence. Oh, then there she started another sentence. And then, okay, I'll just wait to— no, okay, I'll wait some more. So what happens then? What makes me lose this?

Yeah, that's a great question. So what's the emotion you're trying to avoid in that moment?

Anger.

Her anger?

Fear first, and then anger came up.

Okay. So the fear you're feeling, cause you're scared to interrupt her.

Yeah.

So you're scared that she'll get angry and then what will happen to you if she gets angry? What's, what's the internal feeling you're trying to avoid?

Well, like then my mom showed up.

So what is it? What's the feeling that comes in you when that person gets offended?

Oh, there's this unconnectedness. I'm shut out. Yeah.

Often shame is what that feels like, but we'll just say unconnectedness. So somebody—

Yeah, shame makes sense. Yeah. Yeah.

With humans, shame is basically the feeling you get with disconnection often. You know, like a little kid with a whole bunch of aunties and the little kid farts and the aunties, "Oh my God, I can't believe that you farted." That kid's gonna feel shame because that disconnection. But if all the aunties laugh and be like, "Oh, you little tooter," then they'll probably fart again. They don't feel shame.

Yeah.

So it's this pulling away, this disconnection. So that's the feeling. You don't want to feel shame. So let's see, let's verify this. If If I could snap my fingers and you couldn't feel shame when people got angry at you for being rude or whatever.

Yeah, problem solved.

Okay. Right.

Yeah. That feels very true. Yeah. Yeah.

So what's so uncomfortable about shame? What's wrong with it?

It's like the manifestation of Unconnectedness of being alone.

Can we experiment with it?

Yeah.

Your microphone is like blowing out and this podcast isn't going to be usable. And like, you're wasting my time. You're wasting my time. So don't, don't disconnect from yourself for a moment.

There's sadness. Yeah. First I smile and laugh, and then there is like this emptiness and sadness. Yeah.

So what happens if you just say that to me? I know you are, but as if we're in a real conversation, not this, this isn't real, but if we were in a like more normal conversation, if you're like, oh wow, it makes me sad that we're disconnected right now.

I feel I'm starting to feel disconnected and that makes me sad. Yeah.

Well, don't blame me for that. Don't blame me that we're disconnected. It's your microphone.

I'm fighting the impulse to say I'm sorry. Great.

Well, first of all, let's try that. Try saying you're sorry, but that doesn't mean to buy into the shame.

I'm sorry. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I'm sorry. There's a different kind of sorry there. Yeah. I can feel it.

Yeah.

I'm sorry about it.

Yeah.

Sorry that my microphone's busted. Yeah.

It's like, it's like, oh, I'm sorry that you hurt yourself. It's not like I've done anything wrong.

Yeah. It's like, I'm sad about the situation too.

Yeah. Okay. So let's try it again. Don't blame me that you're sad. It's your microphone. I'm like, I'm not the one who bought your microphone and said it was fine.

I'm sorry that my microphone is busted. I, I'm not sure how we can fix it right now.

I just can't believe this. You've wasted my time. We should just end this thing right now. Just end it.

There's like, so this wall. Coming bubble or like pressure from my body.

So the only thing that's happening right now that's different than normal is that you're actually going into the emotional state instead of normally you're trying to end it off. End it off. Yeah, exactly. Right. So if you keep on going in, then you keep on being vulnerable and then There's sadness. Yeah. So, but what's the problem?

Yeah. And it's not that scary.

It's not scary or it is scary?

Then it is not that scary. Yeah.

Yeah. Let's try it a different way just because a lot of people won't just get angry like that. So just say something to me that might be offensive, as true as you can make it. Yeah.

Your hat is a bit off and looks weird.

Sorry, it's so true. Okay, do it again. I will, I will I have to be in character. Go ahead, say it again.

Okay, okay. Joe, your hat is a bit off and it looks weird.

Okay, fine. I gotta go. I'll see you.

Yeah, there's this freeze.

So be with the shame and what wants to be said.

Don't go. I don't want you to go.

Yeah, I don't want you to go.

So vulnerable, right?

Yeah, yeah. Now I'm leaving. Now, like, don't guilt me. Now I'm leaving.

I'm sad that you're leaving. I still don't want you to leave. Right.

It might even be sometimes, okay, yeah, I understand you want to leave. You might actually not want them to stay. It could happen too.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Like, yeah. At the other side of this, then like both options are more clear.

Yeah. Yeah. It seems to bring us back to that question, which is like, well, what made you have to think that there was something wrong?

What made me think? Oh, that there—

You're beginning, you said, I've been thinking about what's wrong.

Yeah. Finding where I'm stuck.

Yeah. It's an interesting thing. Like in a weird way, what you're doing right now is assuming that there's nothing wrong, what's happening in your system. For you to get to the place that you're getting to right now. They get upset and you're like, oh, there's nothing wrong with this. There's nothing wrong with the emotional place that I'm in. How do I want to react? Yeah, it's, it's the other side of the offense story too, which is if you never offend anybody, you can never really build trust.

If I never offend anybody, I can never really build trust.

Think about the least offensive person you know.

Oh yeah, yeah, I'm like, where's your boundaries? Where's— yeah, yeah.

Trust is built by having conflict and overcoming it together.

I need to have conflict. I want to have Oh, I want to— that's a hard sentence. I want to say it. I want to have conflict. I don't want to get over it. I want to really make sure that last part of the sentence is there. I want to have conflict and learn how to overcome it.

Yeah.

People can trust me and I can trust myself.

I'm looking at your face. You're like, oh wait, that's a different reality.

Yeah. Yeah.

Like the most trustworthy people are not conflict avoidant when you just look at them in the world. Like the best CEOs that you would trust to put your money in are conflict avoidant. The best social activists aren't conflict avoidant. The best doctors aren't conflict avoidant. The best CPAs, whatever it is. The best friends.

Yeah.

People who tell you what they actually think instead of trying to make you happy. Those are the ones we value.

Yeah. So then it's like, okay. I'll go back into the world and I'll make some conflict.

Yeah, you don't even have to make it. It's just what's going to happen if you are human. Yeah, that seems to be the course of humanity. We have conflict.

I'll accept conflict and feel into it and through it. And then it's like Some friends won't like it as much as others.

Correct. Here's a weird question. How else are you going to heal your shame?

How else am I going to heal my shame? Other than conflict, making— other than conflict and distancing myself from some friends in the process.

Maybe. Yeah, who knows what they're going to do? That's— that you can't control that.

Okay. And my belief—

you're gonna risk it for sure.

How am I gonna heal? It's good. I know it's always a good spot when I like lose all thoughts.

The question is, how else could you heal your shame?

How else can I heal my shame?

If it isn't inviting conflict? What's another approach?

To heal my shame, I need to feel it and like feel through it and learn about it.

Yeah.

And so then there would have to be another way than conflict for me to, for my shame to get triggered.

Yeah.

Brilliant. I guess I could shame myself. I don't know if I'm in a desert, I could project like my Parents or something.

Right. You are doing that.

Yeah, I'm already doing that.

The broader point here is that if you love the shame, invite the shame, can't wait for the shame because that's the chance to get to know the shame better and to integrate it. It's not to get rid of it because if you love it and you want it, then you're not getting rid of it. If you see shame that way, as just a signal that you're disconnected, then it is like, it's like having a constant reminder whenever you feel disconnected. And so it allows you to reconnect. It's an amazing, it's an amazing feature.

When you said that, my comment about your hat showed up and I felt shame about it.

It's a pretty ugly hat. Hat.

It is very—

you see, do you see the creases right here? It's because my head is so huge, and it's like clearly sun-bleached, and it's crooked. It's my offense at my— at the hat is, is about me. So this is the other point about it, is like, you want to take away my healing journey?

How do I know you're just not stuck? I don't know you'll actually heal.

Oh, correct. You don't. That's not your business.

But I take away your opportunity.

Correct. If you look at Tibetan teaching, like one form of the Tibetan teaching, they take the monks in and the first stage of the teaching is we're friends and you build this deep connection. And then the second stage of the teaching is they do everything they possibly can to offend the student.

Is the student informed up front?

No, of course not.

Okay.

Because if I offend you, then I am pointing to an ego that still is running your life. Yeah. Now, now granted, that's a consensual agreement to some degree, like you're there for the teaching and you trust the teacher to teach you the way that And at the same time, there's truth to it in every aspect of this, right? That if you are constantly avoiding the conflict, then you are stopping the chance for people to learn. And you see this in companies all the time. The conflict-avoidant leader does not have a team that is transforming, evolving, overcoming. They just sit on stagnant problems.

Yes.

Right? Whereas leaders who aren't conflict avoidant, say Steve Jobs would be a great example of that, innovation all the time.

Yeah.

Not that I'm suggesting you have to yell at people, please, I'm not. But my point is that that conflict avoidance pretty much can guarantee stagnation in an organization and in people and in marriages and in Yeah. So just to weigh this out, you can be yourself and you can heal your shame and you can give the opportunity for other people to grow and you can have a non-stagnant life, or you can try to not offend people and you cannot heal your shame and you can prevent the opportunities for other people to grow and you can have a stagnant organization.

I'll take the first one.

The choice is quite obvious. However, we don't make choices logically, we make choices emotionally, right? So if I take the emotional center out of your brain, then you cease to make decisions. You spend, you know, half an hour deciding what color pen to use. There's great neuro research on this. So it's really not a logical decision, it's just, I don't want to feel that shame. That's it.

Yeah.

And then we even turn that into a spiritual bullshit thing where we're like, I'm not doing as good spiritually because I'm feeling shame. You know, like I'm not making progress. There's all sorts of great reasons we have to get rid of our emotional states, whatever they are.

You said like, oh, this is scary as shit, I won't do it. You said like choosing what color something, and I wanted to joke about, or choosing what color hat to use. Then I would feel shame, like, oh, I should say it, or like, want to say it. Yes, I just did. You heard it. Oh yeah. And also, like, I felt shame for not saying it because, oh, I'm not being a good Kochi or whatever it's called.

Right. So this is where the voice in the head shows up. It's like, if you get mad at me, then I feel disconnected. And if I don't be myself, I feel disconnected.

If you get mad at me, I feel disconnected. Or if I'm not myself, I feel disconnected.

Right.

It's a lose-lose.

It's a lose-lose. That's why the problem when you showed up was how, like, I'm not being myself. That's the problem because that's disconnection.

Yeah.

And I don't know any way to heal that. I don't know any way that somebody can feel connected and not be themselves, but I definitely know lots of ways that people can feel connected even when someone's raging at them.

Yeah.

Or being conflict avoidant or being passive aggressive or whatever people's reactions are to. Your connection isn't, doesn't require anyone else.

My connection doesn't require anyone else. Yeah, I'm thinking about my daughter. She's, she's a good teacher. Like, she gives me a lot of practice. Yeah, yeah.

How old is she?

Uh, 3 and a half. Oh.

Yeah. So she's like, yeah. Do you remember in the early days where you were like flustered and she would do something like say, I love you?

What's flustered?

Um, agitated. Like you would be a little amped up or agitated or disconnected and she would like come over and say, I love you, daddy, or do something to create connection between the two of you. Do you, do you have recollection of her doing that?

I have one recollection that comes to mind where she's like, I got mad because she spilled milk a couple of weeks ago.

Yeah.

And she suddenly got very solution mode.

Yeah.

Yeah. Surprised. I'm like, oh, whoa, that's some great problem solving.

Yeah, right. So that's how she's, that's how she's found to find connection with you. She has started to realize at 3 and a half that the way to get connection with dad is to solve problems, to help him solve problems.

Yeah. Ouch.

Right. There's a great book called Parenting by Connection by Patty Wipfler. It's called Listen, but it's based on Parenting by Connection, the whole thesis is if the kid feels connected, your whole job is to help them feel connected. And if the kid feels connected, then there's no issues. It's only when a child feels disconnected that things have— that there's a problem. And I don't think it's any different with adults. Yeah, teams that feel connected are more, you know, more functional. People who are more connected are more functional. When CEOs connect with themselves better, they become better CEOs. They're not acting out of fear.

Yeah, so what I'm experimenting with her these days is just like connecting on an emotional level with her in her emotion and like holding the space, not just saying That's okay, that's okay. But now I got the sense that there's also like a job for me because she has learned from observing me that when I feel bad, I fix things. So I need to stop fixing things.

You don't need to, you don't need to do anything. That would be—

I don't need to.

Yeah, you can just be yourself.

What if that's fixing things?

That's fine. Just notice what happened. You had this recognition that, oh, maybe I'm hurting my daughter. Shame occurred. And you went to fixing things by changing yourself.

Yeah. It happened just now.

Just now, instead of sitting with the shame and the sadness, as if that's not going to solve it quicker than—

Yeah. That's like the shift inside me. Scary. So scary.

Yeah. Don't worry. You won't stop solving problems. I promise.

Yeah, you know, it's like, it's scary. I'm not really in touch with all the scariness. It's just like, I realized like there's this huge wall. It's like, it's almost unimaginable to just like not pick and just staying in the shame and vulnerability.

How long do you think the shame will last?

Like minutes. I'm glad I said it before my voice— no, but on the other hand, you know, time doesn't exist, so it's an eternity. Oh, but I don't want those minutes. No, yeah, well, I want them. I'm not able to access them at this. It's difficult. Now there's that word again.

Yeah.

It's hard. It's scary. I need to exercise.

Reps help, sure.

Reps. Yeah, but— Need shame reps.

There's no—

No, that's fixing myself.

Is it? It depends on the approach. Is taking a walk every day fixing yourself? Or is it just more enjoyable?

Yeah, because I'm creating this like meta loop, like, yes, I shouldn't fix myself because that's fixing— fix. Yeah. And then everything becomes wrong. Damn.

Right.

Right.

Ah, that's what happens when you don't feel the shame.

What happens?

Everything becomes wrong.

Oh, when I don't— yeah, when I don't feel the shame, when I avoid a shame, everything feels wrong.

Yeah.

I don't understand the logic, but I do understand it somehow. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So you get it, you get it in your body and your brain hasn't caught up yet. That's Totally standard. So just to help, just to help with the mental part of it. If you're avoiding shame, if you're avoiding being yourself, then there's always a reason to be shameful.

Ah, if I'm avoiding shame, then I'm also avoiding being myself, which is disconnected. Yeah, which is disconnected and then more shame, shame loop.

Yeah, that's it.

Yeah, so I'm making it worse.

Yeah, so you're either looking around the room trying to figure out how not to feel shame, which is a disconnection which creates shame, or, right, or you're saying something that's not true so that you don't get somebody upset so you can avoid shame. So that creates shame. Yeah.

Yeah.

Whereas if you embrace it, then what's to avoid? Then you just be yourself.

When I embrace it, it flows through.

Yeah. What the— yeah, you're happy to embrace shame, then what would stop you from being yourself?

If I'm happy to embrace shame, well, there's not much left stopping me, is there? There's just me. Hello, I'm offending you and I'm feeling this shame. Yeah, I want to say, oh, I'm not shameful. Oh, but I am shameful. And like, and that's okay.

Yes.

Yeah. And then like, there's— then what? Then just life.

Yeah, then there's just life.

Wow, that was incredible. By exploring triggers and Feeling into the shame that underlies conflict avoidance, our guest finds that he can stay in connection with himself even when others are angry with him or offended. I was particularly touched by the moment of insight into how these patterns show up in connection with his young daughter, which really demonstrates how exploring an issue we see as impacting our daily work life can end up having intergenerational relevance. Thanks for listening.