How Do I Stop Postponing My Enjoyment? (Coaching Session)

Welcome to The Art of Accomplishment, where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease. And welcome back, everybody. Today's episode is a coaching session with a listener named Christopher, who recently brought Joe onto his own podcast called Do Explain. Christopher has graciously offered to publish this session without anonymity and I'm really excited to share it with you. Christopher wants to stop postponing his enjoyment in life. This session opens up an exploration of what can happen when we bring enjoyment into any moment, even the experience of chronic pain. On that note, we want to remind our listeners that this is coaching. The conversations we have on this podcast are not intended to diagnose, treat, or cure any disease or mental health disorder. Thanks for listening, and please enjoy yourself.

I have, um, I have a very intense somatic practice that I've been doing for a few years now, and I'm at a weird stage right now where I feel like I've punctured, um, a thick layer of psychological defense. Yeah, in a way where, um, stuff is leaking out And it's very hard somatically to block it. It takes a lot of energy, like it's close to the surface all the time. And so I'm wondering in this context, when I do it myself, it looks kind of like an exorcism. So I make weird noises and I move and I, you know, it's very alien. And I'm slightly self-conscious that if we— yeah, when we work through emotional material here, that that's going to be Should I give in to what I would usually do when I let emotions move and, and my body move?

Or what would you say? Be as authentic as possible. Like, like, follow your— follow yourself. There's— okay, there's nothing you're gonna do that I haven't seen, and there's nothing that you're gonna do that's gonna scare me. And yeah, it's okay. Yeah, enjoy yourself and like let your body do what it needs to do.

Oh, that's scary. Okay, man. If you say so.

Okay. You could not be yourself. That's fine too. Would you prefer that?

No, no, no. I like that. I like that idea.

So, yeah. What do you want to— what do you want to use our session about? Like, what's— what's going on? What's your biggest thing happening?

Yeah. So I was thinking about how to summarize it right before. And there are two things that I think might be very tied together or even basically the same thing.

Yeah.

And that is I want to stop postponing enjoyment into an abstract imaginary future.

Great.

And I want to—

How about right now?

How do you mean? If I'm enjoying it now?

How do you enjoy yourself right now?

Yeah, I am enjoying it. And, and, and the second thing I wanted to get into there is how can I find— like, how can I do it?

I want to hear that second thing, but I want to stick to the first one, which is Okay, you're telling me that you want to not have enjoyment as an abstract thing in the future, and you're telling me you're enjoying yourself right now, and I see this big smile on your face, and I see your— and I see your head is confused. I see like your, your thoughts are like not quite jiving. So what's happening?

Right. Yeah, I, I feel like I can get glimpses of it. And that I oscillate in and out of it.

Okay.

Are you enjoying—

are you enjoying saying that?

Yes.

Okay, great.

Yes.

All right. So you can enjoy oscillating in and out of it.

Mate, you can't— you can't get into it so fast, man. We got to hold off on the insights. All right.

Okay.

Right, but okay, so let me reframe it. How do I find my way back there when I tend to get stuck into, you know, thinking about the next thing? Oh, tomorrow I'm going to do this, and then I kind of rush through the day to get there, or in a week from now, or when my pains are gone, or, you know, I think that's the major thing. I feel like I've spent a lot of time there. Um, where now I'm getting yourself— come again, is that—

is, is it— or what you're saying is like, how do I get back to enjoying myself when I forget to enjoy myself? Is that what you mean? Like, what do you— what exactly are we talking about? So you have this moment. I get the fact that you have a moment, and the moment is you get caught up in some sort of future which may or may not be enjoyable, they're getting caught up in. And then the next thing you know, you're rushing through your day, forgetting to enjoy yourself, right? So what I'm— so let me, let me ask it this way: is there anything about rushing through your day that can't be enjoyed?

Is there anything about my day that can't be enjoyed? Rushing through my day. Rushing through my day.

Is the issue that the rush prevents enjoyment, or is the issue that you forget to enjoy yourself? That, that's some, some version of that is what I'm asking.

I mean, oftentimes I feel like I'm, I'm even running away from what is going on right now, even more than chasing what's coming.

So wait, running— but what's going on right now is enjoyment. What are you running away from?

Okay. So last time I spoke to you, I mentioned that I have chronic illness.

Yeah.

A lot of pain and discomfort.

Yeah.

And so—

I'm sorry.

I don't remember.

I'm just sorry that that's the case for you.

Yeah. Thanks, man. Yeah. Yeah. And that is something that I don't remember how it was before then. At this point. But now, yeah, a lot, a lot of the time it's, uh, yeah, it's, it's a part that wants to get away from that for sure.

Gotcha. So in this moment right now, you're feeling some sadness, and what would stop you from enjoying the sadness? I noticed that you're breathing or something to try to get into yourself, and I'm just curious what happens if you just enjoy what's happening.

The sadness, I think I'm okay with, but there's probably a hint of, uh, self-consciousness there, or not wanting to appear like a victim or, or something like that.

Um, you're a victim, bro. You're a victim to chronic pain.

Yeah, I feel really ashamed about that.

Yeah. What does it say about you that you have chronic pain that makes you ashamed?

I shouldn't be like this.

What? What? For what reason?

Because I'm an inconvenience to people. Yeah, it's not fun to be around. It's not, uh, it's draining for people.

How much of that is a projection? There's this thing, there's this weird thing. Maybe like 10 times in my life I've, I've met somebody and within like 5 or 10 minutes I'm like, you've been a caregiver to somebody, haven't you? Like, you, you've like stopped, you put your life on hold to care for somebody, haven't you? Yeah. And they're like, yeah, how do you know? And I'm like, because your heart is so soft, because there's such an openness in you. Like there's a way that somebody who's given care for somebody for years and years and years, it softens them, right? And in fact, a lot of parents are softened by the experience if they're doing it consciously. So I don't know what— so you might be responsible for softening people. So how much of it is a projection? How much of it is that you're assuming your experience for the other person who's apparently inconvenienced?

Yeah, I mean, it feels hard to say because I feel like shame is such a, such a relational feeling, and it's such a strong element of projection in shame, or at least it is for me.

Yeah.

And if you had to guess, what would you say? How much of you, you feeling like an inconvenience to somebody else is actually you feeling like an inconvenience to yourself?

Probably a lot of it. Yeah.

Okay, so you're feeling the shame. What— how would you enjoy your shame?

I mean, I feel like when I embrace it, I can— I mean, people can't see it right now, but you can see that my body's kind of moving like, grass in the wind, kind of. I feel like I'm letting it move in a way, which feels kind of nice.

Um, and right now, how would you not enjoy your shame?

Convincing myself that I shouldn't feel it, or that you despise me for it. Like believing that story.

Yeah.

So what is it that stops you from enjoying your experience? Exactly. That's shame. But you were talking about, like, going back, you were talking about, oh, and then next week I'm chasing something or I'm avoiding something.

Yeah.

What stops you from enjoying chasing or avoiding? What stops you from enjoying shame? What is the essential thing that's happening?

I'm running away from myself, maybe.

Hmm, okay, let's explore that. So right now, run towards yourself and see if more enjoyment happens. And now run away from yourself and see if more enjoyment happens or less enjoyment happens.

Yeah, yeah.

So you had a second thing. You said I had two things. I don't want to forget the second thing. What's the second thing?

Yeah, um, yeah, so the second thing is I want to, I want to have a really, really deep and empowered trust in myself and my ability to deal with things as and when they actually show up instead of, yeah, preparing a lot for something that might never happen and worrying about it and what should I say and, you know.

Yeah. So how How are you not doing that now? This, this was, this was definitely— I'm sure whatever it is you prepared for in our conversation is not what's going on right now. You even said it. You're like, wait, hold on. Like, we're not supposed to jump into it this quickly.

Right, right.

So, and so your preparation didn't happen, and here you are prepared and trusting yourself. So tell me, what, what am I missing? What do you want that isn't happening?

No, I think you're right. I do think that I've—

Oh no, I'm not right. I'm asking a question. What is it? Okay, okay.

So I think, right. So I think it's true that I do have already quite a deep trust in myself. I think there's still a small part left that doesn't think so. And thinks it's the whole of me or something like that.

And you're defining yourself by a characteristic that arises at a smaller percentage of the time than the rest of you arises. Is that what you mean? Usually you trust yourself, sometimes you don't, but you're defining yourself by the part that doesn't instead of the part that does, right?

Yeah, something like that. And an example of that would be, um, like speaking in front of people.

Like, for instance, I have a new job right now, and like, what you're doing right now, there's going to be at least 10,000 people who listen to this. So you're okay. Nice.

There we go. Yeah, yeah. Okay, right. Because, okay, so I guess somatically I still have kind of a stress response. Yeah, before I'm supposed to speak, even though I usually when I get into it, I feel fine and I don't get bothered by what you said right there as much as I would starting the podcast or thinking about it beforehand or—

Okay, so So what— how does this stress and enjoyment relate to each other? Or this stress and losing yourself and not losing yourself, or running towards yourself or running away from yourself, how do they relate?

Interesting. Um, it seems like, um, yeah, running away from myself is tied to the stress response.

Okay, so let's, let's, let's be stressed for a minute and see what it's like to run towards yourself during stress. Because stress happens whether you're running away from yourself or not running away from yourself. There's going to be moments of like somebody saying something that's hard, or everything going wrong, or some timing issue. So how do you, how do you run towards yourself in the time of stress?

I'm— yeah, I'm not sure.

So right now there's some stress in you because you can't come up with the answer to this.

Okay.

So how do you enjoy that? Just a little bit more.

Yeah.

Yeah. So you just did it. How did you do that? Yeah.

Uh, I mean, I got— I got in words, uh, kind of a an internal voice saying, "It doesn't matter. Stop pulling the brakes," or something like that.

Oh, that's amazing. So the way that you leave yourself is pulling the brakes? Is that what you're saying? Yeah.

I feel like I've had that experience a lot where I feel, yeah, I'm really afraid of being judged.. And it feels phenomenologically like I'm actually pulling a handbrake or pushing down a brake pedal all the time. And those moments when I, when I release that, it's so effortless. And it's so easy to be charismatic and to just be loving and open.

You, it's easy to be you.

Yeah, yeah, right.

Yeah. So I'm curious about something. This is kind of a strange one. The chronic illness, is it autoimmune?

It has elements. Yes.

Okay. Okay, cool. So how, how does pulling the brakes relate to your chronic illness? And I'm not trying to say causal, cause or effect. I'm saying when you pull the brakes with your chronic illness, what happens? Or how is your chronic illness a form of pulling the brakes? Or how do they relate? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hmm. Yeah. My initial response when you said that was that, I mean, if the, if the stress response is always activated when I pull the brakes and this is kind of a stress disorder, then, then that makes sense. But also, I've kind of nailed it down to, it's been a way to stop me from expressing my needs and wants.

Yeah.

That's a long story there.

But I know it's super apparent. If you're the inconvenience for having it, then yeah, so you can't even express your needs when you're in chronic pain. Because that's an inconvenience. Yeah, I see it. Right. So I'm asking— let me also ask a question. So you're hanging out, you're feeling good, and then all of a sudden the chronic pain kicks in. Mm-hmm. How do you pull the brakes in that moment? What do you say to yourself, if anything? What do you say to yourself that is a form of pulling the brakes when you experience the pain?

I think I get really stuck in what interventions I need to make to be free of the pain. Ah, and that takes me out of the enjoying the moment that we spoke about.

Okay, it— so the pulling the brakes is that I have to fix myself?

Yeah.

Okay, and so what would your chronic pain look like if you didn't pull the brakes? I mean, just to be clear, you could think about what to do to relieve your pain and not hold the brakes. That's very clearly possible.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No, that's— I can differentiate between those two phenomenologically as well, when I'm just like, okay, planning out something reasonable versus just ruminating and escaping. Yeah.

Yeah. So what does your pain look like? What happens to your experience if you don't pull the brakes when you experience pain?

Now, I want to say I enjoy myself, but there's something that feels scary about that too.

Yeah. I'm curious, how, how, how often have you just cried out in pain? You've had the full expression of the pain.

More so lately, but the first 8 years or something, very rarely. Yeah.

Yeah. And the more you allow the expression of the pain to exist, what changes, if anything? Maybe nothing.

I mean, there's definitely more spaciousness around it. And there is much more joy and love and nice emotion. It doesn't feel nearly as bad as I thought.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So there seems to be one form of the breaks, and maybe they're the same thing, is, okay, how do I fix myself because I'm broken? In one form is don't express the pain. Don't let my body be in the anguish fully.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it feels— it sounds kind of obvious now when we're laying it out, but I feel like that at some nervous system level, there's still some resistance to that, or—

Sure. Yeah. What happened when you expressed your needs or your pain when you were a kid?

Yeah, I got shunned, kind of.

Yeah. Let's go one step forward. What, what do you think it would be like to have your— to ask your wife, hey, next time I'm in pain, I want to just be in anguish. I want to express the anguish. I want my body to have its full expression, and I want you to hold me and tell you— tell me that you love me. And that it's okay that I'm in pain and it's okay to express my pain.

Yeah, I mean, it would be lovely, man. Um, we have, uh, a little bind there, however, because she, she— yeah, there's some uncomfort on her side with that. Um, yeah, but yeah, that's— and my— I mean, that's also what I'm noticing in myself this whole, um, I told you that I was very afraid of coming across as a victim. And yet I always have this nagging sense that when I feel these things, I really want to say it. And I want someone to just say exactly what you said there, you know, it's okay to be in pain, I love you anyway, uh, it sucks. It's not all those things.

It's not I love you anyway. No, that still makes pain the bad guy.

Right, right.

If I said that, I apologize. I don't know what I said.

But yeah, no, I don't think you said that. I don't think you said that.

Yeah. Yeah. What do you think makes your wife uncomfortable with your pain?

Our entire relationship has been very shaped by me trying to get out of it and resisting it. And it's limited her options a lot.

So her discomfort might not be your pain, your discomfort may be watching you try to escape your pain. Maybe.

Yes. Yeah, it might be. And I also think she's afraid of not getting her wants met, and not getting the life that she really feels she wants and needs. Because of my illness.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And how would it feel to you to hold her while she had the big emotions around, I might not get the life that I want, and not try to fix it, but actually just hold her and be with her in that anguish?

I, I would be willing to pay her good money to do that.

So that you could do that for her?

I would actually, yeah, love it. But she's, she's always trying to be so brave.

Um, oh, you mean like you? Yeah. How's it different, you trying to be brave with your pain and not be the victim, and her, like, what, how is this different at all?

That's a good question.

Yeah.

Yeah, but that's— I mean, it feels like that's, um, it becomes this weird twisted thing where if you're, if you're really—

hold on, I want to hear everything you're about to say, and I want you to enjoy saying it.

Yeah, all right.

See what happens to your thought structure when you prioritize enjoyment.

Yeah.

So it's a twisted thing is how you started.

Yeah, yeah. No, I get, I get more curious and get more, uh, wonder straight away. And I feel like I, um, I don't choke up my voice as much. It's easier to speak. Um, yeah. So no, I, it felt like in the long pause there, uh, it seems like the expressing whatever want I have, or like, if I genuinely feel like I want to express the anguish and the pain and, uh, squirm and squeal and ask for help in that, I think that's much, much less, um, hard for people to deal with than some kind of Mr. In-Between where it's, uh, the want is squished by the shame and the 'you shouldn't feel this,' and then it becomes this awkward energy, kind of like when someone does something and feels really embarrassed, and then people get embarrassed rather than just, 'Oh, oh, I farted. Oh, look at that,' and nobody cares.

Right? Yeah, people. Yeah, absolutely. People don't want to sit with other people's shame. Like, even if you see somebody when they ask, oh, this is what I want, they're much more likely to get a yes than if they say, this is what I want, and it's full of shame. Yeah, they're much more likely to get a no. People just don't want to be around each other's shame.

Also, so I wanna, I wanna try something if I can, Joe.

Yeah, of course.

Because, um, you always say that the vulnerable thing is to say the scary thing.

Yeah.

And so, uh, the scary thing that's true, yeah, to you, yeah, yeah, would be if, if you would, uh, if you would feel comfortable, if, if you felt like you could hold space.

Oh yes, oh yes.

And say that you, you love my pain and my anguish and let me be a victim for a little bit.

Oh yeah, absolutely, I can do that. Yeah, but you got to look at my face. You got to see that I actually do love your pain and anguish. And for me, it's not even holding space. It's a privilege and an honor to be with it.

It fucking sucks to be in pain all the time, and I hate it.

Yeah.

Ah, fuck.

I hate it for you. I'm not even experiencing the pain. Thanks, man.

Yeah. Oh, fuck.

Oh, yeah.

And at the same time, I feel so grateful that I get to be here at all and I get to be here with you right now. And it's— I'm so grateful for that.

See, notice what just happened. Notice that. Notice that when you allow that feeling of victim all the way in and all the way through, it moves to enjoyment. Yeah. Notice that as you ran towards yourself, which was being in pain and being in anguish, that enjoyment showed up.

Yeah.

Oh, fuck.

We're scared that if we allow the feeling of the victim to be fully there, that we'll end up being a victim forever. Yeah, but what it actually just did is empower you, right? The empowerment that you're trying to have when you don't allow the victim just becomes this very natural thing once you allow it. Yeah, yeah, it's not a push anymore, right? It's a—

yeah.

It's a, it's a natural flow.

Yeah, that's such a shitty, um, uh, bind until you get it.

Yeah, then it's easy. It's like, oh, that's it. All I have to do is allow. Yeah, yeah, right. And so most likely something's happening in you where you're feeling your wife's anguish and feeling responsibility, so you can't fully just be there with her in it.

Yeah.

And if you can be there fully with her in it, this is what's on the other side for her too, even if it takes a couple weeks. Yeah, you're not going to have the life you want because I am in constant pain, and that sucks for you. And I, and I can handle that.

Wow, I get goosebumps when you said that. Yeah, I don't think I've ever said that to her.

Yeah. Yeah, right.

Thanks, Joe.

What an awesome, awesome pleasure. Thank you. Um, one other thing, uh, I don't know if your wife is a private woman or not, but if she ever wants to do a session with the two of us, I think that'd be super fun.

Oh wow.

So we could— yeah, if she wants to do it, we could work on this together. It'd be really fun.

Wow. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

And I understood if she doesn't want to do that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, uh, yeah, I hope I get to talk to you again on the podcast. It's always too short.

Yeah, yeah. Awesome.

Loved it.

Awesome.

Have a nice day.

Bye.

Wow, that was fascinating. Thank you, Joe, and thank you, Christopher. If you want to hear more from both of them, check out their conversation on Christopher's podcast, Do Explain. Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe and rate us in your podcast app. We'd love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions or comments. You can reach out to us, join our newsletter, or check out our courses at artofaccomplishment.com.