How to Break Free from Loneliness

The Surgeon General issued a report in 2023 declaring an epidemic of loneliness in America. And one thing that was surprising to me is that it was compared in this report to the health effects of smoking 15 cigarettes a day, which is a lot of cigarettes a day. So that's fascinating to me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it makes sense because one of the things that we know about loneliness is when people feel that feeling, and it is a feeling. It triggers the same part as if we're feeling pain of the brain. So it's like we're under constant pain if we're in a chronic state of loneliness.

This time on The Art of Accomplishment, we're gonna dive into loneliness. There's a loneliness epidemic in this country and in the world right now. And why is that the case? And what can we do about it? So we're gonna talk about where loneliness comes from, how it works and moves in our lives, and what we can do to find deeper connection with ourselves and with other people and feel more connected, whether we are in solitude or surrounded by others.

So let's make a distinction here, just so we have semantics that we agree on. There is loneliness, which is an emotion— I feel lonely— and then there is, call it isolation, which means you're by yourself. And being by yourself can be very empowering. It doesn't particularly have to be lonely. It can be actually an invigorating thing. There's a whole bunch of studies that show that it increases your creativity and increases— has a lot of benefits, makes you more resilient. And, but that's because you're choosing it.

So you might call that solitude.

Solitude. Yeah, let's call it solitude. Yeah, perfect. So, so there's this feeling of loneliness and then there's being alone and they are very different things. One is an emotional state and one is, oh, I'm choosing to be by myself. And for our talk, let's assume that the solitude is a choice, that the person's choosing it, or at least not resisting it, not saying there's something wrong with me because I'm alone. Loneliness is when you think like there's something wrong with you. And that's the big thing, is that it has this massive feeling of shame. The way I have experienced loneliness is that there is two things involved in it. One is a component of shame, like there's something wrong with me. I'm not being accepted, I'm not being loved, I'm not cared about, and that's my fault. And then the other one is that oftentimes there's an anxiety of interaction with people, or at least sometimes there's just one precipitates the other, right? You can feel lonely, but you can still feel safe. In that loneliness because nobody else is gonna attack you, nobody else is gonna reject you.

Yeah.

And so there's actually an addictive quality to it. People who feel loneliness for a little bit, they move towards connection. There's a natural motivator for connection, for getting together with other people and having deep, meaningful relationships. But if that loneliness is chronic, then you start seeing the world as a threat. In the loneliness, there's some sort of shame, something's wrong with me. If it's in the short period, it's an amazing thing that moves you towards others. And if it's in the long period, then it can start isolating you further and further and further and further.

Now, for devil's advocate here, what about the context or the situation where someone's stranded on a desert island or they're in solitary confinement and they are, through no choice of themselves, physically isolated and alone. Maybe they don't feel shame, like, ah, I should be connecting more with the palm trees and bugs around me or something. But they just have the human need that they're not getting met. How about that?

Yeah, so there's absolutely a human need for connection. We have that. And we know there are tons of people, most notably different monastic traditions that people say, oh, I'm gonna go isolate myself for years at a time. But again, they're in choice, right? And so I think if a person, I haven't seen any studies on it, I haven't been this person, but my assumption is that if somebody is isolated, not by their choice, it's really about how they perceive it. If they perceive it as, oh, this is an opportunity, is a gift, I'm gonna make the most of it. It's not because there's something wrong with me that I'm here doing this thing. Then probably it can be something that creates a lot of growth. Because if you say, I'm choosing this, I'm not resisting it, then there's a whole bunch of evidence that shows that. However, if you say, I'm in jail because I'm bad, I don't want to be here, why is everybody making me be here? Then you're creating that internal isolation.

Or it's not fair that I'm stuck on this desert island. That's a whole story that might get in the way of the potential for the adventure. That one could take in themselves.

But I just say, be careful of that because what some folks can do who are feeling that loneliness, who are feeling that shame can say, "No, no, I'm just choosing to be alone. I can choose to be alone." But they haven't actually dealt with the underlying shame. So it's not gonna be a win for them. It's gonna be avoidance.

Somebody could choose the monastic life to say, "I'm gonna go find myself in the solitude." when in reality they're avoiding intimacy. Not the case for everybody that's doing that, but that could be a path.

Or avoiding the shame that comes up around other people or the anxiety that comes up around other people.

Okay.

Yeah.

So where does this come from? What has us grow up with these different ways of relating to being alone?

Well, there's the first one, which is just genetically, it makes total sense that we like need to connect. We are a social being. You know, we're like bees, we're not like sharks. And the fact that our survival strategy genetically is to be collaborative, to cooperate, to work with one another. And our safety is in numbers, especially whatever, 200,000 years ago when we were bone pickers, right? Like, we were not at the top of the food chain. And so our job is to have that social structure. And so nature in its wisdom was like, you are going to feel pain if you are ostracized from a group.

Yeah.

Because we need cohesion of this group so that you can be effective and safe and genetically prosperous. So there's that aspect of it. Then there's the aspect of what makes it that somebody feels lonely or has a higher propensity to feel lonely. There's some work and studies on insecure attachment. Basically, if you didn't feel like you were securely attached, then you're more likely to be lonely. So even if without the research, it's pretty obvious. That if you are in a house where you can't be yourself, can't show yourself, where you aren't seen because your parents are too busy, they don't attend to you, they punish you, they criticize you, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. As a kid, you're going to take that on as shame. There's something wrong with me. And maybe you're going to even take it on as anxiety, meaning there's nothing I can do right. I can't interact with people in the right way. That can also happen in schooling or something like that. And so you have this early experience of, I can't be seen, I can't be met, and I'm anxious around people. And so you've learned this loop and you're just playing this out over and over and over and over again, assuming that the world is the way it was when you were being raised. So typically that insecure attachment style is what's creating that loneliness, and it's what allows people feel alone in a crowd or alone all by themselves, because either way they're not being seen. Either way they believe that the world cannot accept them as they are, can't be seen as they are, can't be loved for who they are, can't be connected with, that there's something wrong with them if they show their whole selves. And so they're lonely.

That's a clear component of it. And it also sounds like there's another piece here, which is just that over the course of the past decades, the structure of our society has been shifting. There's social media. So if you have any propensity to living in a loneliness pattern, and you're gonna be drawn towards social media forms of connection versus real, vulnerable, scary, intimate forms of connection. And so when one's available versus the other, you'll maybe lean towards a little bit more this way. And so over time, a lot of our society has leaned into more surface-level forms of shallower connection that feel like a surrogate to the real connection.

I would say it's a little more insidious than that. I would describe it not about social media in particular, but the more forms of avoidance that we have.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

And the more that we move around as a people, like we're constantly moving and we don't have like that sense of neighborhood or sense of family that's nearby because we're chasing opportunity. The more those two things happen, the more that our parents are distracted, the more our parents feel isolated, the less we're seen, the more we feel isolated, the more we feel lonely, the more we don't feel seen. And the more connection is harder to come by, it takes more and more risk to get connected to a new neighbor than to somebody you've known for 50 years. So yes, it's like a building effect in society. Social media is the new form of it. And interestingly, what social media does, Television did this too, by the way, is it gives you a surrogate of connection.

Mm-hmm.

It says, oh, I'm interacting, so part of this thing is fulfilled, but I'm actually not showing myself. I'm not vulnerable. Right. And so it's not giving you the real connection that you need to not feel lonely.

Yeah.

When you think about The Connection Course, everything we're doing there is around teaching you how to have that real connection. And if you think about it this way, if you think, okay, the solution for loneliness is connection, you can find it both in the connection with somebody else and you can find it in the connection with yourself. And that's what the studies show. The studies show that if you are choosing to have alone time, you become more self-reliant, you have better self-esteem, you're more creative, all those things, you're less lonely because it means that you've learned how to connect with yourself. And so that also helps with the loneliness connecting with other people. So it's really far more about connection than it is about whether you're with somebody or not, because you can be with somebody, feel completely disconnected, and you're lonely as hell.

Yeah, yeah. There's also the aspect of what we've been missing. You know, we don't have a lot of the old rituals that really built a sense of connection, the capacity for connection in a community, as well as the rituals of like coming of age that built the capacity to be in solitude. And really explore and be with oneself and then be able to go through the span between both of those modes and navigate life in its full breadth.

I mean, the good news is those are all available to us. The bad news is that they're not automatic. They're not just something that we like, we go through this ritual and it's just what you do at this age. You know, the only thing that's left like that is high school and college, maybe for some of us.

Gap year for Europeans.

Right, exactly. But there's like, endless opportunity. I don't care if it's the Renaissance Faire, if it's AOA community, or if it's religion. You know, there's going to be healthier ones and less healthy ones, but there are literally endless opportunities.

Just—

there's knitting clubs, there's, you know, like, it's like really, you can just pick anything. I'm interested in pickleball. I can find community in pickleball. Yeah. So what's interesting is that that community is there, but part of the issue is that the community doesn't solve it unless you connect with the community, unless there's a deep intention to connect and that somebody meets you there.

Right. Yeah. And that's the key distinction because there are a lot of communities that are organized around something that's not connection, which might be— let's say we have a community organized around disparaging another group. Right. Or even organizing— we have a community organized around playing a victim to a certain dynamic. So you can have people to like bitch and complain with.

Yeah.

And that can be a certain level of connection and intimacy, but it's a different kind of connection and intimacy than if the group is actually intentional about how do we connect with each other. And that's what we're going for here.

And ourselves more deeply. Yeah, that's gonna be the most fulfilling sense of community for sure. Yeah.

And then of course address whatever we wanna address in the world with that connection with ourselves and each other.

To go back to your question about how people get here and—

Yeah.

The attachment— what's interesting to me is that most of the people who have that deep sense of loneliness, maybe 80%, 90% of them are sweethearts. I mean, that's the crazy part, right? So if you think about the people who are just like, "You son of a liar," blah, blah, blah, but they don't particularly feel lonely typically. Like it's such a strange thing. They're interacting, they're connecting with people, they're asking for what they want, they're showing themselves this is who I am. And they're not abashed about it. And so they're far less likely to feel lonely. They have issues, don't get me wrong, but loneliness isn't one of them. And so what's amazing to me is most of the people who feel lonely, they feel like there's something wrong with them. So they're not connecting, but they're really sweethearts, which is like the most ridiculous thing. It's like, you're lonely, but you're such a sweetie. Like, how on earth do you think that there's something wrong with you? Yeah, like, you clearly care. You clearly are interested in other people. There's a wholesomeness to you that a lot of people lack. And then— and you think you're the problem? That's just dumbfounding to me.

Yeah.

How often that occurs. I'm literally jaw agape often when I'm talking to somebody who's lonely. I'm like, ah, yeah, like, what?

Well, the former example you were mentioning, like, somebody who's like, well, like, let's say, like, the, the bully CEO type, we've often talked about how that person feels alone. But they might not self-identify as lonely. And that's the problem that I think I have and that I'm, like, addressing.

Feeling alone and loneliness, I'm going to say, are like different things. Feeling alone is, oh, nobody's here helping me. And it does also come from a shame. I feel alone in this as compared to I feel lonely, which means like I am not being seen, which means you're not sharing yourself. The person who's lonely in the corner. They're not sharing themselves. That bully CEO, he might feel alone in it, but he's sharing. He's like, right, right. And so they're just far less likely to feel that loneliness.

Gotcha.

They feel alone in it, don't get me wrong. They feel like, yeah, it's all up to me, that kind of a feeling.

Yeah, it's an important distinction.

Yeah.

So what, what are ways that people can work with loneliness? If somebody's listening to this and they're really identifying with what we're talking about, yeah, and how can they start right now?

Connection's the answer, period. The cool thing about connection is connecting with others can start changing that feeling of loneliness. Connecting with yourself in an intentional way, not to change yourself, can help with that feeling of loneliness. Having somebody connect with you helps with that loneliness. All of those things can help with the loneliness. And the way to get there is the same way that we talk about in the Connection Course, right? So vulnerability is one of those things. It means that that thing that I'm ashamed of, that I don't want to share, that I'm not sharing about myself, it's true and it's a little scary, but I'm going to share it. And now I can be seen. That's going to help cure the loneliness. Impartiality, meaning that I am not going to try to change you. I'm not particularly saying I'm wrong and I've got to fix myself. It's like all that impartiality also increases connection. Right? If I am with you and I think I have to be different, I'm extremely partial about you or me, and I want everything to change, then I'm not in connection with you. I'm increasing the shame and I am increasing my loneliness.

Mm-hmm. Same as if I'm walking into a group and I'm expecting the group to be different so that I get the thing that I want.

Exactly.

Without just sharing vulnerably. Yeah. But trying to manage and control.

Exactly. Because when you're managing and trying to control a group or yourself, you're saying, I'm not good enough to be here the way it is. They're not good enough to be here. There's the lack of faith in yourself, which means there's some level of shame. Yeah.

Yeah.

So then also empathy and wonder are other ways to really allow yourself to connect. If I could just have that sweetheart who thinks there's something wrong with them, who's lonely, just have enough wonder to say, what makes it that Joe thinks I'm a sweetheart? Just like enough wonder to do that. And they could see themselves through my eyes for a moment. Or through most of the people's eyes. And you see this like in MasterClass or Connection Course all the time where this person has an idea of themselves and all of a sudden they like click and they can see themselves through other people's eyes and they're like, whoa, like the whole thing shifts.

Yeah.

Which requires some empathy, which is part of what we teach in there. And it requires wonder of, oh wait, maybe I'm not looking at this thing correctly.

Yeah. It's like one of the hooks in any movie about somebody who's lonely, they don't see the sweetheart that they are. But all of the viewers are just like, oh, my heart goes out to you. I relate. Oh, let's watch this movie to see how this develops for you. I want to see it work out.

Exactly. It's so true.

Yeah.

And so it's, yeah, it's just like, it's this cosmic joke typically. So all of it is, oh, how can I be myself, let myself be seen? That is the thing. And the only thing that makes that difficult is that I think there's something wrong with me and that makes me anxious. Like someone's going to find out or someone's not going to like me or someone's going to, you know, attack me or something like that because I've done something wrong. Or it's like just the shame-ridden, I'm bad and everyone's going to see it.

What about just the sense of unsafety? Like the world's not safe. Like there's nothing wrong with me, but the world's unsafe. How about that?

My experience of that is that doesn't particularly create loneliness. There's plenty of people feel like the world is unsafe, who feel like a deep sense of community. I mean, I would say a lot of religious structures are built that way. Oh yeah, the whole world's going to come to an end, we're fucked, but we have each other. I don't feel lonely.

Yeah. Okay.

It's not generalized fear, it's the fear that there's something wrong with you or that you are going to get it because of who you are.

Essentially something that makes you believe you need to emotionally isolate.

Yeah.

And that it's your fault.

Yeah. Emotionally isolate and have the deep thoughts hidden. The problem with this is that because it's based on shame and shame, if you've listened to the podcast on it, is very stagnating.

Right.

We talk about how shame stagnates the emotional experience. Loneliness becomes this thing where people get kind of addicted to it.

Right.

I start to feel safe when I'm alone. I don't have to feel that fear of being ostracized. I don't have to look at the part of myself that I don't think is good. If I'm just all by myself, I have less of that, like, thrown in my face on a regular basis. And so it's just safe here to be alone, but I'm feeling lonely. And so it creates the same stagnation that shame creates everywhere.

Yeah.

And so it's actually quite a trick. And then since we know neurologically, after a while, then we start really being skeptical, suspicious of other folks. Whenever I think about that, I think about like there's this part of Highway 15, Nevada I love going to. It is Highway 15, Nevada is the loneliest road in the world. And if you come across a wild horse there, holy crap, they're skittish. But the more you go up the mountain where there's less and less people, there's mountain ranges, the more skittish the horses get. And so there's this thing about like I'm not used to people. I'm like, I'm even more suspicious, especially in the short term, is this thing that happens. And it's, it's like so natural in any kind of social animal that there's like a suspicion starts growing when you're isolated.

Mm-hmm.

They say that long-term loneliness creates suspicion. I think it's just long-term isolation.

Yeah.

That creates the suspicion because I've seen that same suspicion happen with people who become more and more powerful. They're isolated and they don't have that feeling of loneliness, but there's like, they are isolating themselves more and more and more.

Yeah, they can't be themselves. They'll be taken advantage of, they'll be—

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sounds a lot like the way that static builds as you like walk across carpet or like if you've ever stood on top of like a power tower with like the wires, like the more you stand on it when you're insulated from electricity until suddenly you touch something metal, the longer you've been isolated, the harder the shock.

Shock. Exactly.

It builds up over time in isolation. And then when you come back into contact, you're gonna have that shock. So it also sounds like the path back to connection is through the shock.

Yeah, when people are doing the Connection Course, we call it like the pucker, right? It's like, oh my gosh, am I gonna say that?

Yeah, yeah.

It is, that's the thing that builds. And as you start saying it, then it becomes easier and easier and easier to say. And you see this in 12-step programs all the time. The first time coming in, oh my gosh, I'm an addict. It's like a big shock. 10th time, 20th time, 4 years later, you're like, yeah, I'm an addict. We're all addicts. Yeah, okay. Like, there's no shame in it anymore. There's no shock in it anymore. And the more you're doing that, the less lonely you are because the more you're being seen.

Yeah. So then continuing on that metaphor, if somebody is listening to this and they're like, okay, I'm going to practice some vulnerability and partiality, empathy, wonder, or just lean into the electrical shock in my life, how does somebody do that in a way that doesn't blow out their system or take it too far or create a situation that proves to them that they are actually bad, wrong, should not stay?

So that answer is a little bit different for different folks, right? So back in the earlier part of the podcast, we talked about how some folks, they're alone in a crowd and some folks are alone in isolation, right? And so the alone in a crowd one, the shock is, oh my gosh, if I show up, everybody's gonna abandon me. I'm always going to be alone. I'm going to be rejected. It's going to hurt. I don't think it could ever hurt more than the pain of actually being lonely. So to me, the way you go through it is the same way you would go through pain and exercise, which is you take a little bit, you take a little bit, you take a little bit, and next thing you know, you're looking back and you're like, wow, I can run 10 miles now instead of 5 miles. There's no rush in it. Right. And the cool thing about it is that one deep moment of connection is better than a whole bunch of not very high-quality connection. So you're just starting, like, how do I get one, what I feel like is a deep level of connection for a couple minutes?

Great.

And take a rest, do what you gotta do. But there's no rush in this. So it's just about, oh, can I allow some of the connection? How much can I let in? And you'll know when it's too much. And just relax. You have tomorrow, you have the next day to do it.

So connection doesn't become a should, another thing driven by the shame underneath your loneliness.

You just can't be connected in a should. Should is shame. Yeah, that like doesn't work that way.

Yeah. And I'm curious how many people who feel lonely are also constantly feeling like, oh, I should go talk to the girl. I should have said this, or I should. Go out more. And other people telling them that too, perhaps.

Folks who are alone in a crowd, they usually thrive off of, or at least need that constant interaction with other folks, right? And so it's a similar thing as far as you create your dose, but it's about opening up to the people you're around just a little bit. But I had a client who was like that, constantly busy, constantly had people around them, feeling very, very lonely. And part of the reason that she separated was that she was very sensitive. She was a successful businesswoman, but she really could feel everything. It's part of what made her successful, but she really didn't want to get overwhelmed. And it was an amazing thing when she realized that that sensitivity was a strength, when she realized that she could choose and she learned the skills of choosing how to feel it or not feel it. So she could be sensitive or she could limit that sensitivity when she wanted to. The loneliness died almost immediately. So on one level, the question is, how much connection do you take? Yeah, but the real thing is, how do you connect with your inherent goodness? How do you see that what you think is a weakness or is bad is strength? How do you see the thing that you've been saying is wrong with you isn't? 'Cause when you do that, your capacity to connect really increases.

Yeah, and that raises the question, how much are you connecting with yourself in your moments of solitude? Because if you're not doing that and having that side of the balance, then your time with other people will feel more draining. You'll feel—

Yes.

You're going to have much more social anxiety if you don't take the time to recharge with yourself. And if the time that you take isn't recharging because you're telling yourself you should be connecting or there's something wrong with you and that's why you're alone.

Yeah. Or in deep avoidance, meaning like, okay, I'm going to scroll and I'm going to call that being alone. Right, right. So the surrogates can often really allow you to— and sometimes they're like kind of cool surrogates like dogs, you know, and sometimes they're not cool surrogates like social media where we, you know, only get this perfect image of people that we can never compare to. And so we can always see what's wrong with us because we're not shredded or we're not beautiful or we don't have the private jet or whatever. So there's different ways of being in connection in your downtime, in your solitude, and, and that also can be intense. So it's really, again, how do I gently be in connection with myself?

Yeah.

When I'm alone, how do I feel recharged when I'm alone?

Yeah. So for somebody who tends to feel alone in groups but is in groups a lot, versus somebody who tends to be alone by themselves but is in solitude a lot, yeah, there's some component of Yeah, try the thing that you're avoiding.

Absolutely.

And lean into the connection to self or other available there. And also in the one that you tend towards, how do you lean into the connection available in that version?

Yeah, exactly. Do the one you don't have the propensity to do, lean in there, and then figure out how to be more connected in the one that you tend to do. That's beautifully said.

Yeah.

The other thing that's really interesting to me about it is that I know that loneliness is a crazy epidemic. But notice that we get questions about so much stuff, right? We're in MasterClass right now. We're getting like, whatever, 3 to 7 questions a day. People are working on their deep stuff. And you'll notice that loneliness very, very rarely comes up. The thing about shame and the way it stagnates is that you don't shine light on it.

Mm-hmm. Right.

It's amazing because I'll watch somebody be needy as hell. Before they admit they're lonely, right? And admitting they're lonely isn't annoying. Being needy can be very, very annoying. And so that's the other thing that's true. And I know there's some studies that support this, which is, you know, we've all met that person who is looking for the mate and they're like, I will find this person, I'll find my person, and then I won't be lonely.

Right, right.

And you also notice that like never works out. I believe that the evidence is that people who are doing that, their chances of having a secure relationship have a much lesser chance of happening.

Yeah. If your job in a relationship is to make me not lonely, that's going to be rough.

Or I have to do X, Y, and Z to not be lonely. Yeah. Like, if you look at the behavior of somebody who's chasing the person so that they're not going to be lonely, they're constantly contorting themselves. To like, you know, did he do this? Did she do that?

Da da da da.

Feels like crap in them. It disconnects from them. And then the other thing is they're not actually showing themselves, so they can never not be lonely, right? Everybody I've ever met— is this true? I think this is true. Holy crap. Dozens and dozens of people I've worked with on this, none of them are just showing up and saying, this is who I am.

Yeah, and the same for somebody who feels lonely in a long-term relationship. That seems to be the same thing.

Absolutely the case.

Anytime I've been in a long-term relationship and at that time felt lonely, it's always been because some part of me doesn't feel like it can be expressed. And then when that clears, because I bring it, then the loneliness goes away. It might also change the relationship. It might be difficult conversations, but the loneliness is gone then.

Yeah, I mean, I'm just thinking about the story that's happening right now in MasterClass where somebody is saying to their long-term girlfriend this is actually my truth. And like, whatever is going to happen in that relationship is unknown, but you can clearly see they feel less lonely.

Yeah.

And they literally said like, oh, I might lose the relationship, but I feel good.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's an amazing thing.

So for those people out there listening to this, maybe some of them are the average adult who has 1.9 friends and tells 0.2 of them about their loneliness. What can they do? We already talked about what they can do in general, but I wanna get more concrete and specific, like, say, an experiment.

Yeah, so there's literally hundreds of them. You know, you can do any of our workshops, you can do the Connection Course, you can do, just download our free experiments page and run almost any of the experiments there that you think would make you feel more connected to yourself. It's just all about how do you feel more connected? And so if you can write down— so this would be the exercise I would give you— write down 16 ways that you think might bring you closer to connection with other people and yourself. 16 for other people, 16 for yourself. And just run those experiments. Just try each one out. One for a week, the next one for a week, the next one for a week. What are the iterations that I need to do? What are the experiments I get to run that will make me feel more connected? So it might just be as simple as changing the way you meditate. It might be expressing some scary thing every day, something that's a little vulnerable. It might be go to a 12-step program. It might be sign up for the Connection Course. It might be sign up for one of the free workshops. It might be literally anything that makes you feel more connected.

Yeah. Awesome. Thank you, Joe.

Pleasure, man.

Good to be with you. Thanks everybody for joining us for The Art of Accomplishment. Hope you like this episode. If you really loved it, please share it with a friend or social media. Sometimes social media can actually bring people into deeper connection as well. You can find us on X at Art of Accompli— Joe is @fu_johudson. I am @erikissler. And if you're listening to this, know that we have video. You can find it on YouTube or on Spotify. This episode is hosted by myself, Brett Kistler, and Joe Hudson. Munyi Kelly is our producer, and it was edited by Reasonable Volume. Till next time.