Impartiality — Connection Course Series #3

Recognizing something that's right and going with it rather than trying to get it to be your version of right is the practice of impartiality in business, and it's incredibly, incredibly useful.

Welcome to The Art of Accomplishment, where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease. My name is Brett Kistler. I'm an adventurer, entrepreneur, and a self-exploration enthusiast. I'm here with my co-host, Joe Hudson. Joe is a business coach who spent decades working with some of the world's top executives and teams developing a unique model of human patterns that underpin how we operate with ourselves, each other, and the world. A good entry point into this model is a mindset called VIEW: Vulnerability, Impartiality, Empathy, and Wonder. Through understanding and cultivation, we learn to easefully drop into the VIEW state of mind, deepening self-awareness and increasing our connection with the world around us. To learn more about this podcast or courses, visit artofaccomplishment.com.

In today's society, we have this archetype of the successful leader as a commander, someone who knows what they want and bends the world to their will in order to get it. But so many of us end up elbowing our way into loneliness or controlling our lives into a place we later realize we don't want to be. How can we have clear goals and desires while staying in flow with reality? What if accepting the outcomes we're avoiding makes our desired outcomes more likely? On today's episode, we'll be discussing impartiality, the eye in view. So Joe, describe what you mean by impartiality.

Uh, yeah, my 11-year-old girl yesterday asked me that question. It was cool because it gave me a very different answer. Explaining it to an 11-year-old. Um, the answer that I normally give is it's to not have an agenda for another person. At least in the VIEW modality, it means that when you're having a conversation, you're not trying to get the other person anywhere. Um, so that's what it means in that way. But the, the, the way I explained it to my daughter, um, was it's, it's saying, I trust you. You know what's best. And when you're talking to somebody else, right? So you're saying, I trust you, you know what's best, I'm going to follow your lead. I think you know what you need better than anybody else could know what you need. You have more information and data to know what you need, and I want to explore that with you. That's impartiality. But what most of our conversations are, are very partial. And it would be things like, I know what you need, let me give you advice. I want you to be better. I want you to be healed. I want you to be different. I want you to feel like I'm valuable in this conversation. So that's the partiality instead of the impartiality. So that's what I mean, particularly in these kinds of conversations. There's other ways to think of impartiality generally, and that are really important in one's journey. And we may or may not get into that, but For the, for the, for the context of a view conversation, that's what it means. And, and the reason on some level that this is so important is because the subtle message behind partiality is that you think that you're smarter than the other person. I know what's best for you. If I can give you advice, you think— know what you, you know, you think you know what's up. And, and that's basically agreeing with the essential myth that so many of us live with. And it's the essential myth that we're not good enough. And so if you're telling somebody that, you're also making that true for them. Whereas if you are looking at them and in the conversation, you see them as wise, you speak to the wise part of them, the part of them that knows, then that's the part that's going to come out and meet you. And that's what you get in that conversation. Instead of the helpless person, you get on the other side of the conversation somebody who's wise, because that's the part that you're asking to talk to and that you're talking to.

Let's, let's dig into that not good enough part a little bit more. And what is, what is impartial about that?

Yeah, so, so there's this correlation between thinking that you're not good enough— let's call that shame— and that there's actions that prevent you from being happy, right? So it's like, um, you think you're not good enough because you haven't worked out, you think you're not good enough because you still get angry, you think you're not good enough because women don't like you, and you think that if you do all that stuff, if you work out enough, and, and if women like you, or enough men like you, or whatever it is, then you're not going to have shame, and then you're going to be happy. But the causation is, is actually the opposite of what people think. It's far more that shame causes the actions than it is that the actions are what cause the shame. Meaning if you remove the shame, then it's very easy for the working out to happen and for people to want to be with you and all that stuff. It's the shame of— shame is kind of like the locks that keep the chains of bad habits in place. I think, I think there's a guy, Adyashanti, who said that. And, um, and that's what I mean. It's like, it's the shame that holds the bad actions in place, or I don't want to call them bad, but the actions that prevent us from being happy.

I like this, this like dual direction of causation. I think it would be interesting to see it sort of as a loop as well. Our actions and the consequences to our actions can create shame and they can also heal us. But if we're waiting for the impact of the world to do that to us, then that's sort of disempowered when we could actually work on the other side of that loop, which is seeing our own goodness, seeing that we're good enough as we are, and letting that shame dissolve, which then changes our actions to be less, less producing of consequences that would lead to shame.

Yeah, it's absolutely a dance. It's absolutely a dance. They definitely can feed off one another. But what I notice in the, the mind of most people, they're not saying, maybe I should stop being I'm so shame-oriented, I should stop shaming myself. And so I think that's the most important part to call attention to. But yes, absolutely a dance. Yeah.

So, uh, so what is the benefit of being impartial?

It's like, um, CEO asking the CFO, what's the benefit of revenue? Um, uh, yeah, so many benefits. Um, You don't shame people, for one. You're teaching people how to fish, not feeding them fish. You're empowering the people in your organization. You're empowering your husband, wife, kids. You don't have to save anybody anymore. You don't need to be valuable anymore. People are more likely to trust you because you're not trying to fix them, that you're just being with them. Deeper levels of connection, you know, you just keep on going. There's so many benefits from it. And there's only one kind of perceived loss that people think they're going to have. It's like, if I'm— if I stop being partial, then I'm not going to get what I want, which is hilarious, because if they were paying attention to some degree, they would realize they've been partial their whole life and they're still not getting what they want, um, in many arenas.

Yeah, right.

I would say that there's not— obviously you're going to get what you want and not get you what you want with partiality, um, But what I would say is that look for causation, even look for correlation. There's not, um, I find people get what they want far more when they are being impartial and owning their wants.

Yeah, it's fascinating. I think, I think it's intuitive to us that being partial often, like being overly partial, gets us, doesn't end up getting us what we want. And so we learn to— we learn some weird form of impartiality, which is really just like, we use it as a way to be non-threatening in a conversation. But if we were to like turn the partiality all the way down to zero, our behavior would approach random chance and we wouldn't be going in any particular direction at all. And so how does, how does being impartial help you have productive conversations and achieve goals and get what you want?

Yeah, yeah, great. Uh, yeah, so there's no way I think any mammal, but definitely humans, can be completely impartial. Um, you know, it's asymptotic, meaning that you can like dissolve more and more of your partiality, but there's always some partiality. Um, you see this in acting, you know, a lot of the great directors, the way they direct actors is they just ask them, what do you want in this sentence or this scene or this moment? It's how we do it. And if you really want to take it apart, every single sentence you have has some want underneath it, has some desire. And it's like a great exercise to every sentence, then say what it is you wanted to achieve in that sentence. So, so there's no way to get rid of partiality. It's as human as breathing or having emotions. Or so I think that's a really important part. But the So I don't think there's any fear that like we'll walk around aimless. I've never seen that in a person. I've seen people stuck, which is different, but that's not partiality. Everybody that I know who's really walking around what looks aimless but is really stuck, they have— they're very partial about trying to get unstuck. And the other thing is that goals are fine and wants are fine. That's not what we're saying. We're saying that in a conversation with somebody, you let them have their wants and goals and you have yours, and you don't try to influence theirs. It's kind of like saying, like, it's like looking at a river, and if you're having a conversation with one person and you're looking at the river one way, then you're like, I want to bend the river to the left. It's a lot of effort and it's a lot of work, and it's probably not going to work, or it's only going to work temporarily. Whereas if the other one is like, where does the river naturally want to go and how does that work with me, or how is it important to me not to work with that is, is the other way to look at that conversation. And being impartial is far more like that.

What are a few more examples of that, like, of that metaphor in real life?

Hiring people. So earlier in my career, um, I would hire people and I'd be like, oh, they're talented, I want to try to get them on board. Or I had a vision for somebody and I'd be like, okay, you know, and Now it's just like— and I think I took it to the other extreme for a while, which was like I would just ask people what they want to do, and if it wasn't exactly what I wanted, then I wouldn't hire them. It's like I would far rather work with somebody who is wanting exactly the role that I have to offer. So that's another way of looking at the impartiality. So I'm not trying to convince anybody who's talented to come and work for me. I'm just saying this is what Is my reality, this my world? Do you want in? Is this something that inspires you? And then I know I have them. I don't have something I've convinced, you know, to show up. So also saying no in sales is another great example. You know, the best salesmen will challenge, ask difficult questions, will even, you know, look at a pipeline and try to get to know as quickly as possible. Um, for instance, I, I worked, um, with this artist who was having a hard time selling his stuff, and I said, look, your job is to go and get, uh, 50 rejections. I need you to, in the next 6 months, get 50 rejections. And after the 10th call that he made, he was in 3 galleries, because as soon as he could drop the partiality of trying to convince them, then he was successful at being himself, which is what they wanted. Especially particularly from an artist. Um, but if anybody who's done a good sales program, they know that, um, getting to a no is just as important as getting to a yes for time and effort and energy. And also, here's another way to think about it. Think of your best bosses. Think of the people, or clients if you don't, if you've never had a boss, like, who are the people who, who have kind of been responsible for your paycheck and have been the best to work with. And you'll notice what they are is they're incredibly clear with their wants. This is what I want. But they're not self-serving.

What do you mean by that?

It means that they're being impartial. They're saying, this is what I want, and they're letting you have the autonomy to do the thing. They're not cajoling you or manipulating you or being partial about how you do it, right? Or even partial about what you do. They're far more like, This is what we need to do. If you don't want to do it, then maybe you shouldn't be here, or maybe we can get someone else to do it. But if you think about those bosses, you just don't feel them as self-serving. And what happens in partiality is that when you're not being impartial, the thing that comes up is you look often political and you definitely feel self-serving to the people around you. Whereas if you just own your wants clearly— and the way this works in, say, a view conversation is you can just own your partiality in the middle of a conversation. And it's a very vulnerable thing to do and say, oh, I noticed that I'm trying to fix you, and I'm so sorry. And if you think about it even crazier than that, imagine if you're in the middle of a conversation, you notice someone's trying to give you advice, trying to get you somewhere, and they say to you, wow, I noticed that I'm giving you advice. I'm trying to fix you. How do you feel about that? You think about that for a second. Most people, most of the time, are going to say, yeah, please don't. Yeah, and yet we're freaking doing it all the time. And so that, that's how it builds trust and connection.

Yeah, yeah. Speaking of like being political, I mean, people all the time, um, like all of us do it, we manipulate by hiding our true intentions and subtly nudging a situation in the direction that we want it to go. And this could sometimes be confused with impartiality, uh, but I don't think that that's what you're getting at. What's the difference between actually being impartial and just acting the part in order to manipulate? And how do we tell in the moment if that's what we're doing?

Yeah, you're correct. They're not the same thing. And it's true that there's a body sensation that goes with each one of them. And impartiality, like view, is really a state of mind, state of being. You know it when you feel it. More than you know it if you're doing it intellectually. But I would say it's the same difference as hitting somebody in the face and, or hitting them in the back while they're not looking, right? If you're subtly nudging or trying to, and you're not owning your partiality, if you're not owning your wants in that situation, then you're not being straightforward with them. It's a subtle form of lying. And, and the other thing is that most people know when you're doing it, right? Most people, you know, when someone's doing that, most of the time we kind of have this social contract that says, yeah, everyone kind of does that, so I'm going to put up with it. But none of us like it, and, and none of us like doing it. I mean, that's one of the other things, is that if you want to know how it is in your body, it's, it's uncomfortable. It's, it's uncomfortable. And you know, people can feel it and you can feel it in others. And of course there's some folks who are intentionally duplicitous. It's definitely not the majority of people, which I think is a misunderstanding. I think a lot of people who see someone who's duplicitous, they feel like, of course it's intentional. I find often it's not. It's like a blind spot of narcissism and other things.

Lack of awareness.

But when Yeah, exactly. But it's like the only time we really believe those people is when we want to, when we're trying to fool ourselves anyways. So that's the other thing, is like the thing that you notice about people who are duplicitous intentionally, it always blows up in their face. And it, you know, sometimes it takes 5 years, but it hardly ever takes more than 5 years to do that. Whether you see this on a large economic scale or in relationships, it eventually blows up on you. Which is interesting because you can see people who are like not scrupulous, right? You can see people who are like maybe morally— do morally questionable things, but they're straightforward about it and they can actually do it for a long time. But when they're not being straightforward about it, it almost always blows up, which is a really particularly interesting phenomenon.

Yeah.

As far as how it is in the body, it's different for other people. Each person kind of— their body registers things a little bit differently, but All you have to do is feel like you do feel right now. Go into a memory of when you were kind of being subtly manipulative or not subtly manipulative and feel how that felt in your body. And then feel how it is when you're being straightforward with your wants, even if it's scary, you can feel it. And that's going to inform you. Your body will know it much quicker than your mind will.

I feel like a lot of times that I've done that in the past, it's been more just like a, like an avoidance of even recognizing that that's something that's in my awareness. But there is a part that's aware of it, and it gets filtered out because it's inconvenient for my ego.

Yeah, that's beautifully put. That's— yeah, it's exactly— it's like, even if we don't make the ego the enemy, but there's something that we, um, that we'd have to feel or look at if we admit that to ourselves, which is, I think, typically the case when we're being manipulative. We have a want that we don't even— that we're oftentimes, we have a want that we're ashamed of having. And so we're, you know, trying to get our wants met without having to admit that we have them.

Yeah, I think that that points to this, this whole practice being a state of being, because if, if you're doing this logically and you're trying to meet the endpoint of, oh, I should be impartial, impartial will get me better sales, will give me better relationships, relationships, and then you're constantly filtering for whether or not you look like you're partial or impartial, uh, that ends up coming from a completely different place than if it's the state of being, right?

Yeah, if you want them to see you as impartial, then you're definitely being partial, right? And it's going to be seen. Um, absolutely.

Which makes this, you know, like, begs the question, if, if true impartiality actually requires this state of mind that is actually impartial, and that meaning okay with any outcome, then what can we do to cultivate that true impartiality when we are, are actually in reality afraid of so many things and so many outcomes?

I've been just focusing on this a lot, this question of like fear of outcomes. So here's my new approach at thinking about this, which is I don't believe in outcomes. Like, the only way you can believe in an outcome is if you believe time stops.

Hmm. But what about like a snapshot, like believing in an outcome being a, you know, some lossy snapshot of the future?

But that's exactly the point, is that it had to stop. Like, reality has to stop for there to be an outcome, right? It's like this age-old problem of, you know, hey, I wanted to see what my future is, and someone shows you your future and you're like happy and have a lot of money, and then like you get there and like 2 days later you're broke, miserable, and you know, like, so where's your future? Is it the moment where you're happy? Is it the moment that you were sad? Like, what's happening there? So, so I don't believe in outcomes because outcomes is the idea that there's some end state and there isn't. But, but with that said, I understand we have our fear and our fear creates the idea of outcomes. And so what do you do there is the question.

What if you're afraid of being in an eternal process of misery?

Yeah, exactly.

That continues. It's not a snapshot.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, even that is a snapshot 'cause it's like eternal, like what is there like, is it you've just hit zero baseline, there's no movement ever? Um, but anyway, uh, yeah, so, so one is the kind of this— there's a tradition that's like the Stoic tradition, and the Tibetan Buddhists have it, samurai had it, which is, you know, visualizing your own death over and over again to undo the fear of death. You can do this with anything, right? So if you're scared of getting fired, go visualize yourself getting fired over and over again, every step of it— before, during, after. Feel everything that you would have to feel if you got fired. Because our fear really isn't about the thing happening. The fear is how— what we will have to feel if the thing happens, right? If someone's like, you're gonna get fired, but you're gonna be absolutely blissed out the entire time. You're gonna— you're gonna find out it's like an absolute joy and pleasure. And— and then you're not gonna have enough money, but that's okay because it's not gonna even dawn on you that you don't have enough money. You're just going to be in this place of absolute loving the situation as it is. And then money's gonna come and you're gonna be not attached to keeping it. It's like, oh, it was a— what? I don't, I don't have any fear of the future. The fear is all in the emotion. So going through the situation in your mind and feeling all the emotions can really free you of the fear, because all of the emotions can be enjoyed, can be welcomed, can be loved.

That brings up something, uh, really interesting. And in my experience base jumping, often, like, before jumping off of a cliff, you know, you visualize the jump. And I frequently found myself visualizing all of the ways I could die on the jump, visualizing pushing off in the wrong way. And the thing that I ended up, like, actually visualizing was the moment of terror when I realized I'd fucked up and, you know, had gone past a point of no return, out of control. And by doing that visualizing and encountering that point of terror where I'd fucked up, yeah, it made it so that if something went off axis or off of the plan, that I didn't have to feel the terror when that happened. I'd be like, oh, like, this is actually much less off the plan than all of my visualizations were, so this is still salvageable. Let's work with this.

Yeah, it's a beautiful metaphor. One of the principles that I work with often is that the thing that we fear is often something that we are unknowingly, subconsciously inviting into our world. Because the things that we do to avoid the thing that we fear are often the things that bring them to us.

Mm-hmm.

And so what you're describing there is that you visualize the worst possible thing happening so you're not scared that it's going to happen, right? Like, if I think about two people who are about to about to base jump and one is like petrified that they're going to screw up and one is okay if they screw up and they jump off, I, I can tell you which one my experience is, is going to have the higher chance of fucking up.

Yeah, likewise, right? With a lot of experience in that realm.

Yeah, which I'm, I'm sorry for, um, because I know the consequence of that. Um, but yeah, that's exactly how it works. But it works with getting fired too. It works with, um, You know, every aspect of our fear. And so that's the other thing you can do is just grieve the loss, which is another way of feeling the pain in advance. The other thing you can do is just call yourself out for being partial. Like somehow or another, just saying, oh, this is the outcome that I want, can relieve you of that want for the outcome.

How does that happen?

It's like, I'm sorry, I notice that I, I really want to be valuable to you, and that's not the best way that I can respect you or this conversation. I apologize for that.

Another thing that happens a lot, like all of us, we've been in some kind of tense discussion or a negotiation where somebody just throws up their hands and they say, okay, whatever, I don't care, which is sort of the opposite of the thing you were just getting at, which is like owning a want and then letting the partiality for that want dissolve. It is like completely disowning the want, and it's a way of disconnecting. What's, what's the difference between, uh, impartiality and this sort of impartial apathy or avoidance?

I'm holding back my laughter so I don't interrupt your question. As soon as you ask that question, it, it hit me. I remember, uh, my daughter, I think she was like 8 or 9 years old, and you know, at that time, like, kids are always like, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care. And she comes home, she goes, Dad, I think I know what I don't care means. And I'm like, really, what does it mean? She says, it means I care. I just laughed. I'm like, yep, yep, that's kind of— that's my experience of it too, is that when people are saying I don't care, they're saying I do care, but I— it's hurting so much that I don't want to care.

Yeah, I don't want to feel this.

I don't want to feel this. Yeah. So, so I don't care to me is just a strategy. Um, it's either a strategy to get what you want, like to say I don't care so that someone chases you, or to get out of the responsibility or the feeling. But it doesn't— that kind of apathy isn't really— we call it apathy, but it's not the kind of apathy which is like, if a stranger came to me and said, like, you know, should I get a BLT or should I get a veggie sandwich today? That would really be like, you know, like there'd be, there'd be no desire for me to have that end up one way or another. And but I wouldn't be apathetic about it. Um, so apathy is really just about people not wanting to be hurt for wanting, for having a want. Um, if you are impartial, you may stop a conversation right in the middle of it and say that it doesn't hold any juice for you. You know, that would be a thing, you know. So, which isn't particularly apathy either. It's just saying, oh wow, I noticed that this isn't This isn't inspiring me. How is it for you?

Um, imagine receiving that, and if you're, if you're trying to sell to somebody and the customer just does that and they're like, here's the information about what I'm actually interested in, all of that presentation you were just doing, I don't care.

Yeah, yeah. There's a story, there's, um, a guy named Mikey Siegel who, uh, has said this, so it's on the internet. And, um, you know, in our first meeting He was pitching me something when I was an investor, and we were just having a nice connection time. And then all of a sudden he got into pitch mode. And after about a sentence, I looked at him and I said, I noticed my entire body is getting tense right now. Mm-hmm. Right. That's owning where I am, having no idea what he's going to say or the consequences. He's going to be mad at me or— and it just created such a deep level of connection between us and our friendship lasted lasts, you know, but has been, um, years of close relationship.

I've seen him tell that story and the, like, the recreation of the mind blow on his face hearing that from, you know, an investor and like just realizing like, whoa, I actually am really, really trying to get something right now and it's obvious.

And, and it went— when it went away, then we could actually connect. And the benefits that came out of our relationship are far beyond whatever the hell he could have gotten that he was after. For me and for him, I hope for him, right? Apparently that seems to be the case.

Yeah. So, so we've, we've worked through a lot of what impartiality is and what it is not. Um, what are some of the benefits to practicing impartiality with intention?

Well, it is a much deeper peace of mind. You're more likely to be in flow with a person, um, and hitting that flow state is something we all want. So that creates deeper connection. You also find out if you don't want to be with somebody sooner, so you don't kind of get stuck in a bad relationship as easily or for as long. Um, you usually come up with better solutions. This is the thing that I have to talk to a lot of managers about because they're like, wait a second, hold on, I'm getting paid good money to have a really strong agenda for my entire organization. Um, but basically what you're— it's the same thing. What you're saying is that the organization doesn't want to fucking do the right thing. And if that's the case, fire them. Fire them. If they don't want to do the right thing, what the hell are you hiring? Why are you paying them? What the hell is going on? There are people out there who want to do the right thing for your company. So then, then if you assume that— if you assume that everybody who's working for you actually wants to do the right thing, then It's just a matter of whether they're capable of it or whether they can see it. And you don't particularly need to be partial to educate folks. You can just educate. You can just say, this is my vision. And also, you're missing something, guaranteed. I don't care. I don't care if you're Steve Jobs. I don't care if you're Elon Musk. You're missing something. The great leaders know they're missing something, so they want to be around really smart people. They want people in the room smarter than them. And the only way you're going to find out what you're missing is if you let go of your agenda for a minute, right? It doesn't mean you let go of your goals. It doesn't mean you let go of your wants. But like, if you're sitting in a conversation, you're just trying to push people into a particular kind of action, you know, more micromanagement level or even macromanagement on that kind of thing. What you're doing is you're not getting the best ideas. And so I'm constantly seeing when executives get this idea of like, oh, right, if we all have agreed on the goal, so I don't have to manage anybody to an outcome. If we've all agreed on that, really, truly agreed on that, then everybody can work together to come up with the best solution. And my way is never the best way. It is a part of the best solution. Also, you're following data more. You know, you know, people, when they're partial, don't look at data the same way. They don't run the experiments the same way. So you get to see what's real, which is a far better way to build a business or a relationship with what's real rather than what you want. I think the other thing is that you won't, you won't have the same conversation with the same person 10 times. You know, right? We all have, we all have that relationship or have had that relationship where it's like, I'm talking to this person about their bad marriage again. Right. And I guarantee you, if you're in that, it's because you want them to be different. Because if you, if you were impartial, that conversation wouldn't come back over and over again.

Yeah. It's like the only thing that could keep you in a stable loop in that way would be that you have some impartiality that is creating a confirmation bias, filtering your information to fit a certain story.

Yeah.

That's really interesting. So how do our How do our personal lives and our professional lives change as we practice impartiality? What happens to us internally and what happens around us?

You're going to find yourself surrounded by a lot less people stuck in victim scenarios in their mind. You're going to learn a lot more and therefore have better ideas because you'll spend that time that you are trying to, you know, manage people in learning instead of in management. You will have to draw more boundaries. You know, that's a really important thing. Like, one of the reasons people are so partial is because they're not drawing the boundaries that they want, or, or not explaining the vulnerable, the vulnerable want that's in, in their system.

What's a good example of that?

Oh, it's easier to try to fix, um, your friend who's dating the same guy with a different name 10 times in a row than it is to say I don't want to hear this story anymore. Another example is, um, I have, you know, let's say I have an employee and, um, they're consistently not doing the things that they've said they're going to do, and I just have to hold a boundary instead of trying to manage them out of it and have partial conversations. I just have to say, if this isn't happening, then I have to assume you don't want to work here, um, because if you wanted to, you'd do it, or you're not capable. If you're not capable, please let me know. Right? So you have a far— you're far more likely to have to draw a boundary and to say what you want directly. You know, imagine a manager who like sits around the table and tries to get everybody aligned, and another manager who starts off saying, what I really want, what I really, really want is for us all to be aligned, rowing in the same direction with a common set of goals. How do we do that? I have some ideas. This is my ideas. What do you guys think? As compared to, I don't want to have to ask for that. I don't want to have to draw that boundary. So I'm going to really want it to happen, but I'm not going to be outright forthright with it. And then I'm going to be partial in every conversation to try to make it occur, which is a lot of managers.

Reminds me in a relationship of like when somebody gets angry about not receiving, not having something done for them that they didn't ask for. Waiting for somebody to notice what they want and do it.

Exactly right. Because they don't have to want to be vulnerable in that want or vulnerable and in the boundary. That's right. That's exactly right. Um, so that happens a lot less. That kind of thing will happen a lot less in your, in your story. Another good story that I have around this is that I was doing this workshop in Boston and Cambridge, I think it was, and, um, and there was a man, he was an older man, had been successful entrepreneur, um, had a lot of depression, you know, life, but he was older. And somewhere in the, like, the close to the second day of the thing, he just looked at me and started crying. He goes, "I don't think I've ever had an impartial conversation in my whole life." Because he had just had one. He just had his first impartial conversation in his whole life. And he was crying. And it was, it was an amazing moment. And And he kind of looked at me and he goes, I had no idea the level of connection that I was missing. And I think that's the big thing, is that like, if you think about the people who always have an agenda for you when you talk, how close do you feel to them? How much do you want to be around them?

Like, how defended do you feel?

And I mean, just— and if you're a parent, especially of an adult child, If they don't want to be around you, I guarantee you have an agenda for them. I guarantee it. You want them to be safe. You want them to be a doctor or whatever the heck it is. They might be around you, but they don't want to be, and you feel it, and you feel unloved because of it.

We've talked a lot about how this applies to relationships with others. And what does it look like to be impartial with ourselves or in relation to something more abstract, like, uh, like our businesses or to a professional career?

Yeah. With the view, all we're focused on is being impartial with others. Um, so I just say, when— if you're in the conversations doing the, the course using the framework, really just focus on being impartial about the outcome for the other person, where they end up. But yeah, it's a deeply, um, beautiful and powerful practice to be impartial with yourself. If you think about meditation, um, There's a saying that goes, most people who are meditating are managing themselves, which isn't meditation, it's torture. Meditation, when you're not managing your experience, when you're happy with whatever experience is occurring, that then it's just bliss, it's just joy. So learning to not manage yourself in moments is incredibly useful because what it is, is it's basically saying, I trust my inherent goodness, I trust my my impulse, the impulse of life that moves through me. So that's kind of the, the big benefit, because that is the path that leads you to deep self-recognition. But, you know, we all have expectations of ourselves that we cling to, and they're painful, and we're constantly revising them, and we're constantly trying to you know, get ourselves somewhere, and it causes us a tremendous amount of pain. We have this voice in our head that's just often quite violent and abusive, and a practice of impartiality with yourself is, is really useful. The impartiality with business is, it's again that really subtle thing about— it's clear, it's good to have wants, it's good to have goals. How you get there, that is where the the impartiality can be incredibly useful. Again, with the film things, that when you're a director working with actors, if you tell the actor, 'This is exactly how I want it,' you're not going to get it. But if you can give them direction and then recognize something beautiful when it comes, you can get that easily and all day. And so recognizing something that's right and going with it rather than trying to get it to be your version of right, is the practice of impartiality in business. And it's incredibly, incredibly useful.

You—

like, I've been in so many— but I mean, everybody can relate to this. It's like there's this business— it especially happens in big businesses— you get the big business and they say, I want to do it this way, but I have to check with this person who has— and then another person has to be checked in. It's like 6 different things, and everybody's because everybody's trying to get to some perfect solution where nobody's going to be mad at them and they're going to be successful. And it's like an ungodly amount of time and energy that would have been so much more useful to do some, you know, to do something, get some advice, make a couple mistakes. It would have been a lot less painful and often a far better result if you can allow that level of impartiality and not try to have to make everything perfect.

There seems to be a, um, maybe a scale or a spectrum of like short-term partiality and long-term partiality. Like when we're in a fear state, we're just trying to get what we want right now. And in longer-term partiality, it's like we're willing to be more patient and that allows for more slack and flexibility in the how and the exactly what it ends up becoming.

Yeah, that's right. I think short-term partiality is far more fear-based than long-term partiality. I think long-term partiality is far more principles-based. It's like, how do I want to be, and what's the world that I want to be in, and what's my vision for the world? You're watching for how the world wants to provide that for you and taking advantage of those moments rather than trying to force the world to, um, succumb to your will, which is If it works, it's a lot more effort and a lot less happiness in it. And so I think that most of the time you can tell the difference because when people are thinking about long-term stuff, they're, they're really not moving from a place of fear or of the same kind of intense fear.

Yeah, they're willing to go through a little bit of the shit to get to a more global optimum. That's right.

Yeah. Yeah. They're not less likely to avoid stuff. Yeah, there's a CEO that I worked with and he used to say he had this thing called the kitchen drawer theory, which is basically there's that kitchen drawer that nobody wants to look at because they want to— they're like, oh shit, that's a mess. I don't want to have to fix that. He's like, my job as a CEO is to find all the kitchen drawers and go look in them. You know, if that's your partiality, if your partiality is to do that, it's a very different thing because it's not driven by this like fear that the short-term partiality has. It's more principled. It's more of a principle. I have a principle of embracing intensity, going into the mess, because I know that that makes the life that I want.

So as, as you practice this, and let's say you're in like a high-pressure sales culture or some other environment where partiality is encouraged, and accept it as a norm. What's likely to happen when, when one person in that group starts to relax their partiality as a result of this practice? And what challenges are they likely to face? And what tends to happen in, in those kinds of teams?

Sales teams are the best for this because a lot of them are that way. So if it's not a short-term sales cycle, if there's any kind of relationship that can be built, the person who lets go of the partiality gets better results typically, because the person who—

if there's space for the long-term partiality in the relationship, that, that's part of it.

Part of it is if you're trying to convince somebody of something, they can feel it based on their mirror neurons, and it's like being attacked on a cell level. So their brains turns off curiosity, um, they stop wanting to learn. We have all sorts of evidence that people, when they're in fear or feeling attacked, they don't learn as well. So you, you can't educate them on your product as easily. Um, if people see that you really care for them and want them to make a best decision for them and that you're following their wisdom, then eventually you're going to make a lot more sales than the short-term thinking. But there's some— there's obviously some sales organizations where that doesn't work because it's like a phone bank. You just call people. Um, and so aggression works because there's some people who will do what you say when you're aggressive with them. You know, that's their personality type.

And in the long term, that might not actually be what's best for your company because you attract a certain type of customer and then your product gets fit to a certain type of a market.

Yeah.

And somebody else could do a better job of serving the customer in a more long-term way and then wipe you out.

That's actually happening right now in all— of all places, there's a company that's doing something like this. Um, in credit, in buying bad debt. And there's a company out there, I can't remember the name, but bad debt—

Detli?

Say it again?

Detli?

Detli. Yeah, I guess that's it. But basically it's the same thing where most of the debt is like, I will intimidate you until you pay me. And these guys come in and they're like, I want to work with you about this. And most people want to also relieve their debt and they get a much better result. And it's just a perfect example. Of how that happens. And if you have a phone bank, it's all a numbers game. Like, make 100 calls so that you can get 3 or 4 to work. And then aggression can work. But long term, it's a bad business model. Like I said, lasts generally about 5 years at most. Also, if you start doing it, the team— if it's a really aggressive culture, the team will turn against you because they don't want to feel what you're making them feel. The person who does it often leaves, gets a better job, does something better in their life.

—becomes happy. You're referring to the person who does the impartiality?

Yeah, yeah. They typically get out of that situation, find something that's actually life-affirming instead of— You know, some people get off on the power of, you know, of that kind of like intensity. Like it makes them feel powerful and they really need to feel that power because they felt so disempowered in their life. And so if they start learning their impartiality, they just get out of those circumstances and find real empowerment instead of just the short-term power. And, and occasionally you have a great team that has that kind of intensity, and then they realize— like, the whole team realizes it. But that usually you need a really great leader to see that.

How can, how can this go wrong or be taken too far? Like, in, in what situations, if any, would too little partiality be dangerous or counterproductive? Or, or if somebody's working on the— working on their impartiality in a team like that, is there a way that it could be distorted in a way that's destructive?

If you deny your wants, yes. If you try to pretend that you don't have wants, then yeah, you could— it's not good. Um, so you gotta own your wants, you gotta own your boundaries, own your wants. Um, so if you're trying to be so impartial that you don't have any wants and you're above your humanity, um, you start disassociating. All is bliss and that kind of thing, which is true, it is all bliss. But if you're denying that, your own wants and your own humanity, it'll sap all the joy out of your life. So that's the one way it can go too far. Um, and it can seem like it goes too far sometimes when, you know, you stop being partial and then the savior or the bully has, like, the, the, a person playing the different roles around you might say like, oh, I don't want this relationship anymore. Oftentimes when people say, oh wow, I'm not going to try to fix my friends or make them happy or try to be valuable to them anymore, that those friendships— some of those friendships don't last, and some of them get transformed into something far more beautiful.

Let's get a little bit more into the difference between wants and partiality.

So the main thing, the main difference is that wants are owned and partiality is not owned. So to own your wants outright in a conversation is quite vulnerable. It allows you to feel exposed, and you're telling people your actual truth. And so there's a vulnerability to it. And being partial, you can hide all that stuff on some degree and not take a look at it. And so it becomes implied. And I think that that's the main difference between the want and the partiality. The other thing is that when you own your want completely, ownership can actually make the want less intense and allow you to see what the world is like, especially if you add to an apology with it, which is like, oh, I want for you to be different than you are, and I apologize for that. It can really relieve you from that pull. Of trying to make them different. And it puts you in yourself. It makes you feel empowered because you're saying— you realize that you want them to be different so you can feel safe, or that you can feel loved, or whatever that is. Whereas partiality is all kind of under the covers. So that, that's the main thing between the two. And so the other thing is that the wants, because they're owned outright and you can see them, it becomes really apparent how your wants, their wants can work together, and you can find something that works best for everybody The partiality is often not owned, so it can't really be seen as the thing that it might become, which is something that can actually work for everybody. So for instance, if I'm partial that you have a breakthrough while we're having a conversation, that's really all about me. It's under the covers. It's not the thing that's best for everybody. And if I see you as knowing whether you want to break through or not, it's a far more beneficial thing for everybody.

So to summarize all of what we've been talking about, for, for us to practice the impartiality in our view conversations, what are, what are some, some bullet points, uh, some do's and don'ts?

Yeah, as far as partiality, it's easier to define them as don'ts. So it'd be don't try to fix people. Don't try to get them to a conclusion. Don't try to be valuable or have them see you as valuable. Don't want them to be different. Don't try to get them to be different. Don't look to convince. Don't try to lead them to a solution. Don't want them to see things your way. Those are the big ones.

What is an example of a time that you really felt yourself wanting to be partial or being partial worked your way through it, noted it, recognized it, and ended up showing up with impartiality in a way you hadn't before. And what was the result?

Yeah, it was, it was pretty early in my relationship with my wife. I think it was in year 4 or 5. She had invited me to come and do something with her that was really important to her. I had not seen how important it was to her, also didn't want to go. And she came back and she was pissed. I remember she was all dressed up for it, so she was like incredibly beautiful at that moment and pissed. She was like yelling, and you know, we used to yell a lot at each other back in those days. And, um, so she was just yelling, and I really, really wanted her to not punish me. I really, really wanted her to see me for the loving person that I was. I really, really wanted her to know that I loved her. I really, really wanted her to stop being angry, which was kind of typical in those fights. And I— and there's something just clicked in me, and I was just like, it's okay for her to be just the way she is. And she just got angry and let it out. And it lasted maybe like 3 or 4 minutes. And then she got angry at me for not reacting. That lasted for like a minute. And it kind of wore off with her. She needed some alone time. It wasn't like this quick fix or anything like that. But for me, it was like freedom. It was like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, I don't have to curb myself. I can be me here. I can be me in the face of this. I can love her. And it was love. It was like, I can love her just as she is, no matter what's happening. And the freedom in that was outstanding. Such a peaceful place to be in.

That's a beautiful story. Thank you for it, and thank you for another great episode.

Yeah, a total pleasure. Thanks for making the time.

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