Jaime Waydo — Taking Care of Yourself First, Fearlessly Owning Your Desires, Speaking Your Truth and Designing Systems to Support You

Let's just look at this like a patient on the table. What are the symptoms? And then what's the next step in treatment? And so, you know, solving problems like that and not worrying about like, well, whose fault is something I think is just a really good way to keep the shame from cropping up in people. And then they can stay much more in the problem-solving mode.

Welcome to The Art of Accomplishment. Where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease. All right, everybody, welcome back. Today I'm speaking with Jamie Waydo. Jamie is the CTO of—

fuck. Cavne.

Okay, we're going to do that one more time.

No, no, keep it. Keep that in.

Okay, we're keeping it. Yeah, Jaime is the CTO of Cavnue. Previously, you were at Apple, you were at Waymo, you worked on the Mars Curiosity Rover, and now you're working on autonomous driving.

Yeah, it's been about a decade of working in autonomous driving and really trying to realize my passion of making mobility available to everybody, no matter if they can drive or not.

Nice. In our pre-call just now, before I started and completely botched that intro, You were starting to tell me about something, something that you've learned through your career, through all of these different businesses, and something that really just applies to your life in general. Can you tell us what that is?

Yeah, I'm struggling with the words a little bit on it. I don't like the word selfish, but I'm going to use it for a minute because I think it feels right. And that is that it's, it's actually okay and important to be selfish, to, to really go into yourself and own your wants and speak your truth and think about what you need to be successful because that'll help everybody else be successful. And I think especially as a woman, you know, we're really kind of ingrained to think about making sure everybody else is okay, making sure our kids are okay, our spouse is okay, our family members are okay, our employees are okay. We end up in this cycle of like trying to help and make sure everybody else is okay, and we're just empty. And what I actually realized about 2 years ago was at work, and I was like, they're paying me because they want me to be successful. And maybe I should think pretty hard about like, what are the systems I need to be successful? And how do I set this up in a way that works for me? So that's what I'd love to talk about today.

Yeah, great. How did this end up becoming a thing for you? What was your life like? What were the factors that led up to this recognition?

Just exhausted, right? Like, I'm very high EQ, and so I can look at people and I can usually read them. And so when you're high EQ and you're working on like trying to make everybody okay, it's just very emotionally exhausting. So I had just nothing left in my cup. You know, I think back and my son, my oldest, is now 11. But when he was 9 months old, I was driving to a yoga class and it was like the first time I had left the house without the baby. 9 months old. I just, I sat in the car in the parking lot just crying because I was like, "I don't even know how to find time to take a shower." And like my husband took the baby and I could go to this yoga class. I just had nothing in me to even walk into this class and start working out again. That's when the seeds started being planted on like, how can I be the mom I want to be when it's all about like making this 9-month-old human not die today? And I think, you know, looking back, what I should have done has been like, hey honey, or call my sister, you know, ask for friends, send them to daycare for a few hours. But I just was putting it all on myself that I needed to put everything from me into him, which ended up with, you know, me being a crying mess in a parking lot and probably not showing up happy and ready to play on the floor when the baby was ready. So yeah, that's where it started.

Yeah, it sounds like that would be really easy, like an easy thing to get yourself caught up into because it's your baby, you care about your baby, you want your baby not to die when you look away for 15 minutes.

Right.

And it would be very easy to think that, you know, it's also your baby and your responsibility. And, you know, your sister didn't have your baby, your friends didn't have your baby, it's not their job. To think that you have to take it all on yourself and not even ask makes it that you're not able to take as much as good care of the baby, you know, because you're not taking care of yourself.

Exactly. Like, thinking very critically about How do I take care of me so that I can take care of whatever else it is that's my responsibility, whether it's at home or at work? You know, this started manifesting at work when I was coached very early on. I became a people manager when I was at the Google self-driving car program, and I was coached very early on that great managers change their style for every employee, and they kind of meet their employee where they are and then work their style to kind of speak to that person. And I was like, great, I'm going to be so good at this. And so I started what I call now chameleon leadership, where I'd show up with every person differently. But I got this feedback at Apple when I was there, and somebody was like, it looks like you're just so inconsistent. People are very uncertain about how they need to show up for you because you're different every room you're in. And I actually think one of the arts about being a leader is that people kind of know and they can channel you so that you don't have to be in every room in every decision. And so this thing I was doing that I thought was so good of, you know, taking care of everybody else and meeting their needs and not being clear about my wants and what I needed was actually showing up as a thing that made people fearful and kind of uncertain how to interact with me.

Yeah, it sounds like there's a nuance to be found there between meeting people where they are and leaving yourself to be where they are with them and not actually being present and not being— not showing up in the relationship in your truth.

Yeah, exactly. And Joe talks about this a lot as like you can hold space for people But you have to stay in yourself and you have to stay centered in your knowing, your truth, your wants. And I think I was just going completely into the other person and trying to, you know, feed them what they needed. And it actually wasn't working for anybody. So I made some pretty big changes.

How did that relate to what you're describing as— you didn't even want to use the word, but whatever it attaches to, selfish.

Yeah, you know, I mean, to me, at first it was like, well, that's just selfish, right? Like a leader that comes in and, or, you know, a parent that comes in and is like, no, I'm going to go off and play golf today. Or my meetings are creative meetings in the morning because that's when I'm creative. And they're, you know, one-on-ones in the afternoon because that's when I'm ready to just click through those kind of personal conversations. And at first I was like, well, that's a very selfish thing to do. And then I started looking at leaders that I really respect and kind of how they run their schedules, they run their days, how they set up the systems and the processes that, that make them, them work. And I realized that every leader does it differently. And I was like, well, that's interesting. And then I started looking at it and it's like, oh, they're being paid to be successful. They're setting up systems that make themselves successful. That's what they're expecting me to do too. And everybody's kind of sitting around waiting and going like, you're the leader. Why don't you like tell us what you want? It's not actually selfish, but it feels like it in the moment when you're just like, this is what I want. This is what I need. And we're going to do it this way.

What do you think taught you that visceral feeling of shame or whatever it is that comes up when you feel that fear of being selfish or you feel that taking care of yourself is self-centered or selfish? Where do you think that comes from?

Yeah, I think some of it is gender for me at least, you know, growing up in a small community where the matriarchs of the family were just, they're the superheroes. They're making dinner on the table. They're throwing these amazing birthday parties. They're showing up at all the kids' events. The kids are all well-dressed and their hair is combed and la la la, right? And it's like, I just grew up in this community where the observation was the matriarchs are pouring everything into their families and the success of the family is the success of the matriarch. And I never really peeled back the curtain to understand like what goes on at home inside the four walls. Walls to see if that's actually, you know, what's going on. I can say in my own home, my mother was exhausted. She worked a full-time job, she took care of 4 kids. My dad was out of the house a lot with his work, and my mom did everything. And so I think I just kind of by example absorbed that that was the expectation. And I never saw my mom be like, "I need a break," or, "I'm going out." Like, even when she'd go hang out with her friends, she'd always have a kid or two in tow. So she never took kind of that time for herself. So I never saw it modeled. So for me, it was about taking the realization and realizing that I want a bigger and more joyful life, and that it will actually probably lead to more clarity and actually drop the fear level in work and will enable me to show up the way I want to show up.

So tell me a little bit more about how this started to land in you and how the transformation occurred.

You know, this is going to sound weird, but I was on a business trip And we were on the plane and the flight attendant does their thing, right? Where they're like, put the oxygen— if you're traveling with a small child, put the oxygen mask on yourself before putting it on the small child. And I was like, I need an oxygen mask for myself first. And like, it was just this deep knowing from within me, like, where's my own oxygen mask? And so I started just thinking about that. I started studying how leaders work. Joe and I were doing a lot of work at the time about speak your truth, own your truth. And I was working for a leader at the time who's, you know, a very dominant leader, someone who would walk in the room and just like scream at everybody if it wasn't exactly the way they wanted it. And I was working with Joe and I'm like, I don't know how to deal with this leader. Like everything I try to do, doesn't please them. And Joe's like, why don't you just show up and do what you want to do and like ignore the leader? And so I was like, okay, well, that's an interesting experiment. And so I walked into a room one day and this leader had been yelling at me for like 6 months, yelling at me in front of the team, behind the team, one-on-one, it didn't matter. And it wasn't that he was mad at me, it was just like he was so frustrated if everything wasn't exactly the way they wanted it. And so I was like, they started yelling, and I said, I can tell you're scared. And it was just so clear to me that the, the yelling was actually out of fear of not being successful. And so I just said, I can tell you're really scared. And I said, I just want you to know, I don't respond to yelling. I actually become less creative and less able to help you solve the problem. And then I just sat there, and I didn't try to fix him. I didn't try to make it okay. I just sat there, and he looked at me, and then he smiled, and he leaned forward, and he's like, "Great, let's start solving the problem." Wow. And it was just like this total 180 in our relationship, and I was like, "Oh." Maybe I should just do what I want. So that was a big piece of it. Joe had also come in and worked with my team. And he came to me and he said, Jamie, I just want you to know, I see a lot of fear and uncertainty in your team. And so, you know, we started unpacking that and thinking about where that came from. And I think, again, that was, you know, a lot of just— they couldn't channel me and my thought process and my decisions because I was so focused on managing each of them to the way they wanted to be managed that there wasn't an ability to be like, no, she's always like this, she's just going to say this. So every single meeting they were like, well, is she going to want this today or that? Is this going to be right or is it going to be wrong? You know, and that sucks when you're an employee.

Yeah, it's like they're spending a lot of time calculating how you're going to respond, and they don't have a consistent model for understanding it because you're not showing consistency, and you're showing some mirror of how they are to be with them in the way that you see them as being, and it's not really how you actually want to show up. And that decreases trust. People, people are just unable to trust what they can bring to you and how, and how you're going to respond to it.

Exactly. And so I was like, well, it would actually be far better to be like my boss who's just screaming at me all the time, because that's very consistent. I know exactly what I'm going to get. And I didn't want to be that leader. But I did make a bunch of changes kind of all at once. I changed the way I ran my schedule. I set it up to be— I like to do my deep thinking problem solving in the morning. I like all my one-on-ones on one day, whatever they are, just structural kind of things for a day. And so I had my assistant help me get all of that lined up. And I made sure that there was 50% white space on my calendar at the beginning of the week so that I had time to work on the problems that I wanted to do because, like, that's just what I need. Changed the meeting structure, changed how we communicated as a team. And then I pulled the whole team together and I said, look, This is a team that— and this is right as we were going into COVID— I was like, this is a team that's, you know, kind of newly forming and we're not cohesive. And I just showed up super vulnerably and like the way I wanted to show up and not worrying about what they were going to think and just said like, we've really got some work to do on team culture and team cohesion. And so we went through a series of workshops over about 3 months. All virtual because it was COVID, and came out with a series of commitments and how we wanted to work and the principles that we had for a team. And I just watched this team go from like, they couldn't even set goals and agree to anything and, you know, completely fearful, to a virtual team that they were collaborating with each other, they were working to solve problems, they were bringing me decisions and not just like squabbling about about things anymore. They were setting goals and hitting their goals. And so, it was like, all I had to do was show up vulnerably and be like, "I don't have confidence that this is a team that can win, and we have a lot of work to do. And I need you in it with me." And then, we did a bunch of work together and come out the other side. And it was just such a great transformation that I saw with them too.

It sounds like when you went through this process of just reimagining the way that you show up. How do I show up the way that I want to? How do I show up to work the way that makes me successful? Not only did you succeed in restructuring that, uh, the work environment for yourself, but it also permissioned it for others who, who work for you and also modeled it for, for your manager at that time. Yeah, that sounds like a really vulnerable thing to say to somebody who's yelling at you, who is superior to you in the organization, to say Oh, I see that you're scared.

Yeah, right? But it just, it was so clear to me. It was like, oh, this is what my kid does when he's scared. And it's like, I bet we all do that. And so I just, it's like it came out of me. I wasn't there. The filter was gone. The filter of like, how's he gonna respond to this? And you know how, I don't know, maybe you don't do it, but you start playing chess in your head about if I say this, then they're gonna do that or they're gonna feel that. And like that chess game starts happening.

Yeah, the 4D chess.

Yes, I hate it. I hate it. And so it was like the first time in a long time that I just shut the chess game off and was like, I'm not going to do that. I'm just going to go with the first thing that came in my head. And the first thing that came in my head was, he's scared. I see you're scared. And then the second thing that came in my head was, we have a problem to solve, but I can't do it with you yelling at me. And so I said that. Yeah, the 4D chess, that's kryptonite for me. I hate it. I'm bad at it. I'm bad at chess, so.

Yeah, so I wanna speak to some of the fear that would hold us back, the fear of the shame that would hold us back from taking these steps. And so I'm imagining sort of an extreme edge case here where you're with your child, you've been with your child all day, you need space, you need something, and nobody's there to provide it for you. And maybe you're hard on yourself for not having asked, so no one's around. And your first impulse is just to get up and walk out and go for a walk and leave them alone, uh, what would make it that you wouldn't do that?

Or like, well, when it's a 9-month-old baby, you shouldn't do that, probably.

Exactly. So I guess my question here is that there's, there's times where your impulse— you, you, you were just telling me a number of stories about how you trusted that impulse and you just did it, and wow, things transformed and changed around you. And I think the thing that holds us back from trusting our impulse is that we believe that if we actually follow that impulse, everything's going to fall apart. We'll be attacked, our baby's going to die, put something in a light socket. So tell me a little bit about how, how that has shifted for you, how, how your fear of the consequences of taking care of yourself and getting what you need, and how it's shifted the way that you go about it, uh, to maybe dispel the notion that you would start acting in ways that are damaging to your child or to yourself?

I started with a lot of playing the 4D chess ahead of the thing, right? So like, okay, I guarantee you that I'm going to be in a meeting and I'm going to get yelled at. Probably this person's going to yell at me tomorrow. And so then I started playing the 4D chess and it's like, well, if I said this, what's the worst thing that can happen? And kind of go through that exercise, right? The Stoics do this all the time. They imagine— they say to imagine your death and then imagine past your death what happens, you know, the hour after you died and what happens the day after you died and what happens the week, the month, the year, the decade. And so you become just totally okay with death as part of this process that the Stoics lay out. And I started doing that with scenarios that I was worried about. And saying like, okay, well, if I said screw you, you can't yell at me, what's the worst thing that could happen? If I got up and walked out, what's the worst thing that could happen? Um, if I, uh, sat there and started crying, what's the worst thing that could happen? Right. And like, just try a whole bunch of different things and feel like what feels right and resonates in me. And am I okay with those consequences? And in all cases, by the way, at work, the worst thing that can happen is you get fired. And it's like, okay, well, I have, you know, 3 recruiters calling me right now. And, you know, whatever it is, I'm probably okay with getting fired. And so for me, it was thinking through that a lot and realizing that the consequences weren't as big and scary as I thought they could be. And really imagining and experiencing them, sitting in that, like, really imagine and feel yourself getting fired. And then what happens the day after you got fired? And what happens the week after you got fired? And the month after you got fired? And like, I got to a point where I was okay with it. And then like, I felt very free at work because the worst thing that could ever happen is I got fired, um, and that would be okay. You know, at home I started doing similar things where it's like, well, what's the worst thing that can happen? Um, If I leave, you know, now, now my kids are 8 and 11. If I leave and go for a walk for half an hour, what's the worst thing that can happen? It's like, well, they could get in a fight. Okay. And so I think through kind of all of those things. And sometimes I set up preventative measures where it's like, look, I need some me time. I'm going to go for a walk and I'll be back. And here's an activity for you and here's an activity for you. And now I'm out. And sometimes it's like, I'm going to go for a walk and we're all going to the park so you can play at the park while I walk around the playground. And so I try different things like that to realize, like, what do I need and how do I set it up in a way where people are safe? And that's it.

Yeah, it sounds like a major difference in what you had just been describing about playing the 4D chess in advance, which is a lot like rehearsing a conversation.

Yeah.

Versus sort of the Stoic Stoic practice of seeing through your death, which, you know, ultimately everything seems to like land in that. If I lose my job, then I won't be able to take care of myself and I'll die alone and miserable and I'll be disrespected and everything. It all seems to finally end in that, but we're never— we're often just not willing to, to vision that far into our future and see and actually test the hypothesis in our, in our simulation. And so I think the major distinction here is that often people rehearse a conversation so that they can play the chess game and avoid the consequence they're trying not to get, like being yelled at, rather than just seeing all the possible moves on the table that they could play and then all the counter moves they could play to all the possible moves that are played, you know, back at them, and just accepting the entire thing. And then showing up and being like, I'm just going to be me because that's what feels better in my system now and in the long term. And I also trust that that's going to lead to better outcomes for me and everyone around me. That might even include that I'm fired and then I go to a different job where I'm not being yelled at, or I get a week off in the summer to hang out with my kids. Yeah.

Or a month while I look for a job.

Or your kids learn to resolve conflict with mom not around.

Right.

So I'm also curious now, how has, you know, the— to whatever extent of helicopter parenting you have, you know, I think all parents have some level of, am I overparenting? Am I underparenting? Am I over— how has that shifted as you've gone through this transformation of taking care of your needs and putting on your own oxygen mask and seeing through the negative consequences that you don't want?

A thing that I have done is I have tried to empower my kids now. So like, there's a checklist on the fridge that's, "These are the things you need to get done today," and they're responsible for getting it done. And then, you know, at about 6 o'clock after we've had dinner, I'm like, "Is your checklist done?" And if it's done, then great, you can have free time, you can do what you want. And if not, then you know that you need to go get that stuff done. And so that's just an example of where I've totally pulled out because I don't want to micromanage. I even told him that. I said, look, I don't want to micromanage. I find it really stressful. I don't want to get in an argument with you about if you need to have a shower for the second time this entire week or not. Like, you need to be clean. And so it's just on the checklist. You follow the checklist. And that's brought me more space so that I don't have to be like mad and in these negotiations. I hate negotiating with my children. But at the same time, it's also given them empowerment. They can decide what order they do it in and like, you know, what time they're going to do it as long as it's done by, you know, 6 o'clock, otherwise they don't get free time. And that's just brought a lot more joy and peace into the household. It's also made me much more connected to them and them more connected to me. Because the interactions we have aren't about negotiating over if you should bathe for the second time this week, but is much more about like, hey, great job in school today. I was looking at your homework and I'm so impressed with how well you did at your math test. And so we're just, we're connecting on things that feel much more meaningful. And less on things that are, you know, just the minutiae of being in a family together and getting chores done.

And it sounds like from what you were saying earlier, there's a similar, like, letting go of micromanagement in your team at work. And like, you recognize that those who hired you want you to be doing what you need to be successful and meet the goals and meet the metrics. And be an active and empowered part of how you work. And then that just trickles right on down to those in your team.

That's right. I mean, even, even now, you know, we're hiring a bunch of people. We're an early-stage startup, and I interview everybody that's coming on the team. But very rarely do I veto. Like, I've done it twice in all of the people that we've interviewed because I'm much more here to empower you as the hiring manager to make your own decisions. And I'm just going to give you perspective on here are some things I think are going to be important as they onboard. Here are some challenges you may have with them as you're managing them. Whatever the kind of insights are that I see. But they'll sit there and at first, it was very odd for them, I think, because they would look at me and they'd be like, well, should we hire this person or not? You interviewed them. You're the boss. And I'm like, I'm not the hiring manager. I'm not deciding. Here's what I see. And just really pushing that empowerment to my team is really important to me.

Where do you see as your next edge? I mean, one of the things that we talk about a lot is that we, you know, this process of self-discovery is a corkscrew. You swing around one time and you find all these ways that you've been holding yourself back and limiting yourself. And then you through deeper awareness, you transform and you change the way that you show up in the world. And then you swing back around the corkscrew and it's the same thing again, but just on some fractal, more subtle layer and level. So I'm curious for you, what is, what is the version of this that's most alive for you as an edge today?

Yeah, it's a great question. Um, right now, um, the thing I work on a lot is, um, I can't save people. And I have this tendency to be like, you're empowered, you do you. But then like when, when they're about to fail, I'm like, oh, let me help you, let me catch you. And, and so now the thing I'm working on is like, no, like maybe they're not gonna fail and I'm wrong. Maybe the failure is the learning that they need. Or maybe like them being weak in that role is actually what's going to strengthen the team by having the team see it and come around. And so there's a lot more of like me pulling back, and I'm working on it. I'm not perfect at it right now, but it's very top of mind of me pulling back and being like, I see where this is going, I think it's going to be a problem, but I need to let the person who is responsible and empowered— I need to really mean that and let them kind of go and, and forge their own path. And I think I've done it right a few times and wrong a few times lately. And when it's done right, what I see is the team is stronger.

Yeah. So something, something that I've learned on this, on this same kind of path, you know, being a classic savior myself, is that when I'm, when I'm on the path, I'm often kind of vacillating between either over-controlling and trying to save them from the inevitable failure that I see them walking into, whether or not I'm actually correct about that, or I'm just hands-off and I'm just like, okay, they're just gonna learn on their own. And then I miss opportunities to give them really clear, you know, something that I see that might be difficult for them to hear and be able to deliver it lovingly and without fear and without like talking down to them. And that's, that's an edge that I've always, you know, like, like, again, it's a fractal. You just continue to deepen into the subtlety.

Keep hitting that bump.

Yeah.

Yeah. Because you can take it too far the other way, which is like, you do you, good luck. And that's not helpful either. And so it's finding, like you said, that, that kind of sweet spot. And that's the thing I'm working on now.

Yeah. And you can get to that point where you're just so hands-off and you're like, why is my team continuing to fail? I'm letting them be empowered and do their thing.

Well, they're empowered. It's up to them. No, it's not. You're the leader. Like, you know, I always say the wins are yours, the failures are ours.

Yeah. I think there's another phrase that I really enjoy, which is, it's not your fault. What if it's not your fault? It's your responsibility. And as a leader, when I, when I start to think of something that might be my fault, whether it is me or somebody that I'm leading, and, you know, a decision that I could have been a part of and steered or brought reflection to, if I'm afraid of fault on some level, then that creates a threat in my system. And then I come from fear, which leads me to either over-control or avoid. But if it's just responsibility, like responsibility, like my own self-responsibility, not like an outwardly imposed responsibility that I should do something, but just, you know, I'm responsible for the outcomes in my life. And, you know, if I'm running a business and I see things going on, you know, if I want to, if I want that to be addressed, it's my responsibility to speak up. But it's not my fault if something goes wrong. It's fault, meaning I don't have to shame myself for it. I don't have to love myself any less because I allowed something to occur that I could have spoken to and didn't.

I think that's right. I think most of the times for me, when things go sideways, it starts with shame. And it's like, you know, the voice in the head turns on and it's like, you should have done blah. And then the shame starts. And then at that point, like, you're not only trying to manage the situation, you're managing yourself, and you're not in connection with anything. And so I find that you really got to get back in, into connection with yourself. I always try to tell the team, um, the phrase I like is, let's just look at this like a patient on the table. What are the symptoms? And then what's the next step in treatment? And so, you know, solving problems like that and not worrying about like, well, whose fault is something, I think is just a really good way to keep the shame from cropping up in people. And then they can stay much more in the problem-solving mode.

Yeah, I could imagine an ER doc being the person who had crashed into somebody, rushing to the hospital with them, and then being the person to work on them. Like carrying the whole, oh my God, what have I done?

Right, I better fix it.

How effective is that going to be? That person just needs to go through their process, and then somebody else who's not as like directly attached to the situation— maybe, maybe there's a case where somebody would actually be able to do the best possible job because they feel like a deep responsibility to themselves to show up to that situation, be fully present with it. But to the extent that they're hard on themselves about what happened, it wouldn't be very effective.

That's right. You know, I think, I think we're all, um, we show up better, we solve problems better, we get to better solutions when the shame is, is off and we're just focused on like, here's a thing, I gotta get this thing done, I'm responsible for getting this thing done. I think our businesses are better, our families are better, our personal lives are better for it.

Yeah, and it sounds like not only for yourself, but for, for your family and for those around you and those who work with you, which flies in the face of this, you know, the impression that we are taught that it's selfish.

Yeah, exactly. Like, you know, I, I think it's not selfish. I think it's, it's being in connection with yourself for sure, and owning what it is you want and speaking your truth. But I think it's setting up the, the conditions for success in whatever it is that you're doing in that moment. And when you do that, you're actually much better to be around. The things that you're delivering are much better. And so, I don't know, maybe selfish is okay— working title.

All right, I love it. Thank you so much, Jamie. I really enjoyed this.

Uh, thank you. It's so good to, to see you.

Yeah, you too.

All right.

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