Joe and Esme — The Teenage Years

It's like, right, if you yell at your kid, you're telling them it's okay to yell back at you. If, if you don't like your kid, you're telling them it's okay not to like you. I want to treat you the way I would treat an adult that I respect.

Welcome back to The Art of Accomplishment, where we explore living the life you want with enjoyment and ease. Today we have a really sweet episode for you. Joe's daughter Esme has joined the podcast again, this time for the two of them to talk about what it's like to raise a teenager and to be raised as a teenager. I really, really like this one, and I really hope you enjoy it.

Hey, Esme.

Hi, Dad.

So what are we doing here? What's like, what, what have you got me into?

Um, okay, so I have a project for school and they want me to create a podcast, and I racked my brain of things that I could make a podcast about, and And I remember the last time we made a podcast, it was super fun. And so I thought we'd do it again.

Okay. So what, wait, wait, wait, what, what, what kind of podcast are we doing it about this time?

Well, yeah, I was thinking that we could talk about what it's like to raise a teenager. Cuz last time we talked about what it was like to raise me from a young age and what that journey was like. And so Okay, I figured why not, why not take, uh, chapter 2 and make a podcast about that?

Okay, but if we're doing that, I want your opinion about like what parents screw up on being a teenager. Like how—

I am more than happy, more than happy to provide that information.

I bet you are.

Yeah, I, I do think that there's a lot of stuff that I don't know, not that people do wrong, but just that, um, parents are searching for connection with their teenagers and they do this or they do that, and it kind of works in the complete reverse of what they want. And so, cool, I think there's a lot to explore.

Yeah, awesome. All right, cool. So where do you want to start? How do you want to start this?

I was thinking that we would start with me asking you the question, what was it, or how has it been to raise me as a teenager. I'm 18, leaving the home soon, which is breaking both of our hearts, I think.

Yeah, it is.

And yeah, and, um, yeah, what have I would say the last 5 years been like?

Uh, I mean, in general, it's a— I mean, I thrive in the teenage years. I, I like— your mom was so much better at the younger ages, and I'm And I finally have like got into my own when it comes to teenagers. I, I, I love it. I love being the parent of a teenager. I constantly, people are like, how is it? I'm like, it's great. They're like, look at me crazy. I, I think it's wonderful. I love, I love it. There's been some challenges too. There's like, I'd say the two biggest challenges I have are trying to figure out like when to you know, when to draw a boundary, when to let you make a mistake, um, when to say, okay, that, that's not going to work. That one's really hard for me because I want you to have as much independence as possible.

Of course.

And then, so, so that one's a challenge for me. And, um, and I think the other big challenge for me in raising It's funny, as soon as I said it, I was like, the other big challenge is like that, like I, it's over way too soon. Like I, like, I was talking to, ran into an old friend in Santa Rosa today and she was like, the, the, like the hurt that you feel now before they leave is worse than the hurt that you feel when they leave. And I was in my head, I'm like, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. Like there's, I can't imagine it. Yeah, I miss you when I'm gone for a week. So that also is going to be really challenging for me is like, I feel like I'm just getting to know you as an adult. And that's, and that's hard. But the biggest—

I don't think that that journey's over though.

Yeah, I tell myself that too. Like, I know that we're going to get to keep on hanging out and that we like hanging out together. Um, but it's just like having you here every day is is, is sweet.

Yeah, I'm gonna miss it. Yeah, we've been talking to Una, like, where Una and I have been chatting, and yeah, it hurts to think about.

Yeah.

And I think that she's right though. I think your old friend might be right. Yeah, that the anticipation of someone leaving is more painful than the actual going.

Yeah.

And I'm not going. Yeah, I'm physically moving, but yeah, I don't You know?

Yeah.

I always tell my friends, my friends, or when I meet people, they're like, oh, tell me about your friends. I'm like, well, so my dad, he's one of my best friends.

Uh, yeah.

Yeah.

I really love our relationship and where it's, where it's come to. And I don't know, all the steps along the journey.

Yeah, me too. So yeah, I think that's the to get to the challenge of it. The challenge is like, you want to do something and I am clear that it's probably not great for you. I generally want you to be able to do your thing. And occasionally I know it's really important for me to draw the boundary. Usually you thank me if I draw the boundary, maybe not right away. But my, my rule has always been, you my thought process has always been is like, if you're taking care of yourself, if you're participating in the family and you're being good to people, you get as much freedom as you want.

Yeah. You've been really consistent about that. And I think that it, it works.

Yeah. Like what works for someone like you?

Yeah, it works for me. I don't think it would work for everyone, but just because of the relationship we have and kind of like the respect that I know goes both ways and how Yeah, it feels like a reciprocal relationship where I put in my part and then, um, like I get my part, you know, like it feels really balanced.

Yeah. I, um, and I, and I'll say like I really appreciate something about you is like if you do get all uppity with me, you know what I mean, on something, yeah, you apologize quickly.

Yeah.

I think vice versa, but if I'm like, okay, no, it's like it's too much to go out for for another night and you're like, ah, and you wanna do it and you get all moody for a minute.

Yeah.

It's usually less than like 5 hours or, or overnight where you're like, yeah, that was a good thing for me. Thanks.

Abso— well, I think that happens every single time, whether I admit it to you or not. You know, but I, I mean, you and mom both, you guys don't put your foot down hard often. Like it's more like, You'll, I'll, um, I'll think of a plan, I'll propose it to you guys and you'll be like, uh, like, so, you know, you'll like dig into it a little bit. Let me find my own conclusion of like, oh, maybe that's not such a good idea. Or like, I am really tired and I'll benefit from getting a good night of sleep or something like that.

Yeah.

But occasionally you do put your foot down and I, of course I get upset, but yeah, it's like I've learned, I think like maybe over the last 2 or 3 years that when you guys are putting your foot down, I, I should just listen to it. Like, I have to be like, okay, I understand that I'm frustrated and they're definitely seeing something that I'm not right here. And so, yeah, like, let it be, you know.

It's interesting, like, how much, like, I have to let my heart break every time you get really upset in those moments. Like, you know, like, I know that that's the job of the parent, but I can just feel so many parents too, when their parent— when their kids get really upset at them, like, it's heartbreaking thing, right? You like—

sure, yeah.

Anybody, anytime someone you love gets really upset at you, there's some heartbreaking— with teenagers, you know it's going to happen sometimes, right? Like sometimes you're like, I know the thing I'm gonna say is gonna piss them off, and they're, they're gonna, they're gonna let me know that they're pissed off. And that's a little bit of like, like to be undefended in that is a bit of a trick, I'm sure.

Yeah, I mean, I think maybe That can lead to a lot of problems in, like, a parent-child relationship. Is like, yeah, I don't know, just thinking about that, of parent gets scared of, I don't know, maybe getting yelled at or having their kid be angry with them, or they're just looking for connection with their kid and they're like, oh, if I say that or if I tell them no, then they're going to push me even farther away and stuff like that. Yeah, I think it goes completely the opposite because when you do put your foot down, like, it tells me that you really care and that you, you do love me and that you're like, oh, you're really looking out for me and seeing, like, having my best interest in, in mind.

Yeah, I think it's the, the way you do it too, right? Yeah, if you're hard about it.

Absolutely.

If the way that I would protect myself from that heartbreak of having you upset with me was to get really hard at you, I think then maybe the respect can't be felt as easily.

I don't think it would be. Yeah.

Yeah.

And when it comes out as anger, I think it's so much harder to receive.

Yeah.

Yeah.

How about the, how about the other way? How about like the parents who are constantly micromanaging their kids? What, how do you think that, like, how does that—

I, I have a, a story. I have a friend, right? And her, yeah. Her parents do that and she has a younger sister and God, they'll be washing the dishes and the dad will come over and, you know, you're not doing the dishes right. Like, this is how you actually wash the pan. Or like, no, no, no, like, not like that. It's actually like this. And I do that voice cuz it's just so absurd to me. You're telling your 15-year-old or your 18-year-old how to wash a pan.

Yeah.

That's absurd. And I completely understand like where they're coming from of like wanting their kid to learn how to do things like properly, or yeah, wanting to feel— I don't, I, I don't actually— you would probably know where that like need comes from more than I would, but I think in the long term it just disempowers, um, the teenager or the kid or how— however, I think it just in any situation, yeah, whether it be a boss or or a parent of like being micromanaged all the time. It doesn't help you get better at things or feel confident doing things by yourself. It didn't, it just does the complete opposite.

Yeah, I noticed that totally. And, and yeah, I mean, when I notice I wanna micromanage something, it's because I'm feeling a little bit outta control typically.

Outta control. Yeah. You know, it's like, ah, you're trying to find control in one part of your life cuz you feel outta control in another part. Exactly.

Yeah, I think that's what— what do you think? How does, how does it— so you obviously have friends. Some are like vaping a lot, some are smoking a lot of pot, I would assume. Some are drinking a lot. Yeah, we were just talking about like we started to see that happen in the 7th and 8th grade for, you know, some folks. And what do you think causes that? Like, what, what— not what causes that in general, but like what's the parent's responsibility in that? Or what's the like what do you see as the kind of the through line in the way the parents are with those kids?

With those kids, like the through line that kind of causes and continues the behavior potentially?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

That's a really good question. I, I think it depends on each situation. I think when there's like a tough home life situation where maybe parents are fighting or one parent is finally taking care of themselves and has kind of, I don't know, separated herself from the fam— his or herself from the family.

Yeah.

That can be super hard.

Yeah.

And I think there is also the micromanaging and the criticizing especially. Um, I always say like, or I think I actually probably got this saying from you, but the, there's the shame. Um, like the sh— there's the body language that says shame and then there's the body language that says, I get criticized, you know, and one, right, the criticism comes from the shoulders and the shame comes kind of from the butt where like the hips are kind of in. I don't know exactly yet.

Tucked butt.

Yeah, exactly. A shame butt. Shame butt.

Yeah, shame butt.

And I noticed that a lot of the kids who vape a lot have the criticism Um, you know, like the, the posture of someone who gets criticized a lot. Yeah. And the, uh, the weed kids, it's really interesting. It's a little different.

Yeah.

Um, there's more shame than there is criticism with, um, that I've observed with, um, with weed for some reason. And I don't exactly know why that is, but I think my guess would be that shame kind of leads to an internal critic, uh, critical voice.

Yeah.

And smoking weed probably puts that voice on pause temporarily.

Yeah.

Um, yeah.

Um, for me, for me, when I, when I was in my 20s and was like smoking pot a lot, yeah, for me, part of it was a big repressed anger. All my anger was going towards myself, like that shame, and there was like all this anger.

That makes sense.

And when I started moving it, when I started moving it a lot, like my desire for pot seemed to go away. How, how, when you look at the kids who are smoking a lot of pot at your age, how much of it do you see as repressed anger? Like they're not allowed to be angry.

I hadn't actually thought about that. Probably a fair amount. I don't see the repressed anger necessarily, but the kids, they're not, there's not a fire to them, if that makes any sense.

Yeah.

Or like, like for example, I know this one kid, we were friends freshman year. He was super spunky, like quick with the comebacks, had a lot of like sass, but in a really like sweet and lively way.

Yeah.

And he started smoking a lot of weed sophomore, junior year. Um, kind of still in the loop right now and he's so different. The, like the fire is just so much more dull. And there's this, like, kind of like, okay, like, I'm just gonna go with it. And I would guess that that is not feeling anger. Like, when you release that anger, like, yeah, I don't know.

Yeah, there's a, there's a, there's like a Tibetan thing, I think it is, where they talk about how anger, when it's fully expressed and fully loved, it represents, it shows up as determination and clarity. Like, and when it's kinked, it might be repressed, or it might be yelling at somebody, or it might be something like that. But it sounds like you're noticing like a lack of determination in, in these cases.

A lack of motivation, a lack of determination. I even feel that when I haven't felt my anger, or like, I think exercise is a way that I often kind of release that stress. And yeah, if I'm feeling frustration or anger, like, I'll exercise, or You'll send me to the bedroom with a baseball bat and give me a timer. Um, but, but I think when I, or I don't know, it just kind of happened. I was feeling a lot of anger around, um, I don't know, all sorts of, all sorts of things last week. And I felt myself kind of lose motivation. Like I had a chem test today and most of last week I was just kind of avoiding studying and just avoiding, like, I don't know, there's just like such an avoidance of like, I'm just gonna like rot in my bed on my phone and like, I don't wanna do anything. And like, yeah, I feel shitty and I feel stuck and yeah. And then as soon as I exercised, I was like, oh, like we're back. We're like, I don't know.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, the, another question for you or like discussion I wanna have is like, Yeah. How many, how many, how many kids actually feel like their parents like them? Like, I don't mean, yeah, like, no, that the kids feel like they're liked.

Yeah. Cause love and like, you're such a different thing.

Yeah. Cause when I look at like, even if a parent does like their kid, what I notice is it's like, you shouldn't be angry. You shouldn't be this. You shouldn't be that. You should like, you're too feisty. Why aren't you getting the sport? It's like they're, they're not getting communicated like, hey, I like you. They're getting communicated like a lot of like, this is the way you should be, which means you're not naturally that way, which means like you need to be controlled, you need to be managed. We like, we don't trust you that you're going to like show up. And I'm just wondering like of your friends, like what percentage, I mean, we live in a very good community, et cetera. Like a lot of, we're fortunate. And so a lot of kids are raised pretty well here, but like How many of the kids that you like look at in your school, do you look at them and you're like, oh, they feel like their parents like them?

Not many.

That's sad.

Yeah. I'd never thought of that before. Yeah. I think most of them feel loved by their parents.

Yeah.

But I don't think that many of them think that. I don't think many of them feel like they actually have a relationship with their parents either. Like outside of just like, this is my father, this is my mother, the parental role, you know, like, like going back to what we were saying earlier of the mutual respect. Yeah, I don't think that that's there in many teenage parent relationships.

Yeah, I think that's one of the things that I've always thought about with you is like some version of I, I remember there was something that happened early on where you were biting me. This is really young, and I was gonna say, it's not, not recent. And Tara, your mom, was like, um, you're biting her. And I was like nibbling on you. I'd be like, and it was like playful, but she was like, you're telling her it's okay to do that.

Like, how interesting.

And It's like, right, if you yell at your kid, you're telling them it's okay to yell back at you. If you're, if you're, if you don't like your kid, you're telling them it's okay not to like you. Like, there's like something in that always. And I was always like, oh, I want to treat you like the way I would treat somebody like an adult that I respect. Now, you want to draw boundaries, so that's not quite the same way, right? But besides that, and in every other way, I want to treat you like an adult that I respect. I have a job to teach you certain stuff, but like, Yeah.

Yeah. Fascinating.

And that's the, that's the other thing that I find, which is really cool in our relationship that I see lacking in a lot of the parents is, um, it's, it's like if I'm having a problem with the way that you're behaving, I bring the whole problem to you. Right. So I'm like, okay, so it's my job to make sure that you're not addicted to your phone. Like as a parent, I'm not a good parent and I don't want to nag you.

Yeah.

And I don't want, like, you to feel micromanaged by me.

Right.

So what do we do together to help you have a rela— the right relationship with your phone that's going to make you the happiest? And how do I support you in that?

Yeah.

And you know what I mean? Like, that con— that little conversation, I feel like doesn't happen with a lot of teenagers.

I feel like it's not even just that little conversation. I feel like whenever there's something like that, we sit down and have a conversation about it. It's, it's never like a, you should, or like, why aren't you?

Yeah.

You know, like finger pointing. It's more like, this is what I'm noticing. Like, how are you feeling around it? Does it feel good to you? Like, cuz with the phone, like I too don't wanna be on it all the time. Like it doesn't feel good for me. And I notice how much happier and more creative I am when I am like doing, filling my time with other things. And like when you sit down, you're like, hey, I'm noticing that there's this pattern happening. Yeah, more often than not it becomes like a discussion of like, oh my gosh, I hadn't noticed that. Like, what can we do together to change that pattern?

Yeah.

And it's always a joint effort. It's never like a, oh, like I have to do this or I have to change that. It's like, how can I support you in changing that?

Yeah.

Which is super cool. I have another question for you.

Yeah, yeah.

What, um, what are things that you have noticed work It's kind of along the same lines of what you just asked me, of like, what are the tactics, we can call them, of like, um, parenting a teenager that seem to have a pretty good success rate?

Yeah, so emotionally, I find you never want to chase a teenager.

Yeah.

But you always want to be available. So like, when you come in the room, I— if you're doing homework or something, but generally when you come into the room, I I try to make myself available to you. Sometimes I'm really good at it, sometimes I'm not quite as good at it. So I make myself available, but I really try not to chase. I noticed that like parents who are constantly like in their kids' crap, you know, like, what's going on in school today? And then there's like this little like, have you thought about it this way? Like, it's like their job to make sure their kids are happy, like, yeah, or doing the right thing or something like that, that like I find that that is not a way to create a great relationship.

Absolutely.

It's better to have the kid come to you as much as possible. And when you say something, be direct about it instead of, oh, I'm not sure. I see a lot of, I want to say this thing, but I don't feel like I can say this thing. So I'm going to kind of skirt around it a little bit. Have you really thought about, you know, like, instead of That doesn't feel good, you know, instead of like, that's a very direct thing.

Yeah.

So that's one of the things. The other one is that topic that I said, which is just showing up and saying like, this is— I don't want to nag, or this relationship doesn't feel good right now. Like, our relationship doesn't feel like the way I want it. How do we fix it? Or I see this thing and I have a job. I have my conflict. Between being a good parent and not wanting to nag you. I mean, nobody really wants to nag their teenagers. So bringing the problems to the teenagers, I think, is really an important thing.

Yeah.

A really great tactic is the thing that I do with you is like take a 2-day, 2-3-day road trip with your kids every, every, every 6 months where you actually get to connect and don't bring phones or minimize your phone use to like between 5 and 6 at night and really have time to be with each other and enjoy each other.

Those have been awesome.

Yeah, that's been, I think really, that really helps with the reconnection. So that's another tactic that I think is really good.

Um, also, yeah, just one that came to mind of that goes along to what you were just saying is whenever I notice that whenever you, um, you or I are away from home for a while or just get super busy and caught up in life, you call me or you see like dinner time, well, Dinner time or whatever, and you're just like, hey, I haven't seen you and talked to you in a while. Like, can we get lunch or can we get dinner?

Yeah.

Can we spend time together instead of like this chasing, like you were saying of like, yeah, I don't know. It's like the puppy running away and you're like, come back, come back, come back. And the puppy's like, oh my God, they're chasing me, you know?

Right.

And yeah. And just like naming it like, hey, like I would love to spend some time with you where we're not distracted by phones or, yeah. Talking about the future of, I don't know, like scheduling or something like that. Like, can we just sit down and have a nice conversation?

The minutia of life.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think that's a good tactic too, which is like, have time to connect with your kids that are not like telling them what to do, scheduling shit, deciding what the next thing is, doing sports. Like actually just have time where you're just hanging out and listening and asking questions. Like, Totally. I noticed that if I ask you questions from not a, from an, I just read this recently, NATO place, which is like no attachment to the outcome.

Uh-huh.

Like if I ask you questions like that, no attachment to the outcome.

I like that.

Yeah. And so if I ask you like, which is view basically, like, yeah, one of the aspects of view, like if I, if I ask you questions from view, you, if we have the space, you like, you love it. We talk, and then at the end of it, you feel deeply connected and you're really grateful for it.

Totally. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's never much of a struggle either.

No, like, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think the other, the other tactic that I'm thinking about right now is like, like, if I think about you and Oona, there's like, I, I, I, I try to meet you both where you're at. Rather than where I'm at, you know, like, I, I, we had so good as a younger teenager, you're an older teenager. I think there's this habit of people, um, comparing the younger one to the older one, kind of thinking that the younger one should be where the older one is, which is totally instead of going, oh yeah, like she, she, she's younger. And so meeting you're where you're at and in the interest that you have. And, you know, what you want to talk about and what Una wants to talk about are completely different, totally different things. Yeah, different, totally different things. And to be in your world, to go down the rabbit hole in your world, is really an important thing to me. And, and, and, and a good tactic, like, like, go down the rabbit hole, like, be in your kids' worlds for a while, right? And like see how they see the world. I had this, I had a session recently with a woman and she said having a problem with the teenager and I was like, not a problem, but something wasn't going right with the son. And I was like, oh, I'd love to talk to him. And so she goes out of the room. He got suspended or some such and, um, goes out of the room and I hear her, you know, say, so You know, you want to talk to this guy. He's like, well, I don't know. I have to talk to him. You could see she was upset. And I sat down and I, and when he sat down to talk to me, I was like, you know, first of all, only like, only wait, be here only as long as you want to be here.

Yeah.

But in my talking to him, I was just really interested in how he saw the world.

Right.

And, and you could tell that wasn't his day to day. His day to day wasn't somebody interested in his world. What he thinks and how he thinks. And I could like propose things. I'm like, normally when I see this, I see that, you know, normally there's probably like some kind of thing with the men group where like somebody's trying to top dog the other one. He's like, no, we're like more like Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn. Like we just like to like get into big trouble together, you know what I mean? And like, and he had so much joy and I was like, oh, like what's fun about that? He's like, oh, we did the what? But But it was just— what was interesting is what was clear is that there wasn't a lot of people who were interested in the way he saw the world, right? And I think that's another one, like being deeply interested in your kids' ways of seeing the world.

It makes— I think just in any relationship in general, feeling actually interested in and heard and listened to, yeah, you feel so much more deeply connected at the end of a conversation.

Yeah, everybody wants You're also sending the teenager the message, which is the way you look at the world is valid. Who you are is valid. And the thing that, like, I think adults forget is that teenagers know that they're young and supposed to be learning.

Right? Like, yeah, and making mistakes too.

And making mistakes. So they'll rebel against you if you tell them what to do. Fuck you. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to do my own thing.

You know a little bit about rebelling as a teenager.

Just a little. Wait, you're not supposed to know that. The green mohawk photos are supposed to be a secret.

You gave me something to rebel against as a child because you knew it was a natural part of a thing. You're like, I'm gonna tell you I hate high-waisted jeans just so that you can wear them and be in rebellion against me for that, and so it doesn't come out in some weird other sideways way. And I wore high-waisted jeans for for years. It was not cute, like the super, super high-waisted ones, you know.

Yeah, I remember doing that.

Oh yeah.

Oh my God, I made such a fuss about how I hated that.

You did. You're like, my mom used to wear them. Oh, they're so awful, they're so ugly. And I'd strut by you in the morning like that. I'm wearing When you told me that was all just for the plot and you were doing that just for fun and kind of, I don't know, I was like, something for me to work on.

Yeah. Oh my God, I don't know what, what happened for you when I, when I told you that. I remember that was like, what, a year and a half ago, 2 years ago?

Yeah, when I was like, well, you hate high-waisted jeans, you know? No, not really. I mean, like, they don't look good on everyone, but I don't really hate them. I was like, What? I was like, I don't know. I think my first thought was just pure shock, and then the second thought was like, what else is he making up?

It was a little duplicitous, but pretty funny. Yeah, I mean, my rebellion was so hardcore as a teen. I think that was part of it, is that like, well, my teenage years just fucking sucked. Yeah, you know, and, and I remember there's a guy named Lil Tuttle, unfortunately passed. He was a chain smoker, but like, he was the first guy to see me as a teenager. And he was like, he wanted to hear me. He wanted to know who I— like, I'm getting teary just thinking about it. Like, he wanted to know who I was. And he saw the best in me. So the best in me showed up for him. He was the guy running this boarding school that I got shipped off to. And And, um, and I think that I just remember how important that was and, and how simple it was. Like, for Lowell, it was just like, it was just pleasurable for him. Like, and he just somehow trusted that I'd be a good kid. And I, and so I did. I mean, I went, I went from getting bad grades to straight A's. I, like, I, I just showed up the way that he saw me instead of the way that my mom worried about me or my dad, you know, fought with me.

Wow.

Yeah. And so I think that's where it comes from. I think that's where I learned it was from Lil. Nice.

Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.

Yeah.

Do you think that, how, like, how do I phrase this exactly? Do you think that the way you were raised as a teenager kind of, um, I don't know, added to the inspiration and the wanting of having a really good relationship with your teenagers when you were a parent?

No, I mean, you just knew what not to do.

You're like, that didn't work, that didn't work, that didn't work.

I think what— well, I mean, the way I was raised as a teenager was traumatic as fuck, and I had to do a shit ton of healing, like 20-something years of healing to like get to a place where I could be in a good relationship with myself. And I think being in a good relationship with myself is what taught me how to be in a good relationship with you. Right? Like, I think that, like, the— when I look at somebody who's raising their kids and the kids are, like, in full— occasionally there's other reasons, like there's chemical imbalances or something, but, but if their kids are in, like, that in a big thing, it's like, it's more of a reflection of the parents the way that— in my world, the more reflection of the way that the parents are in relationship with themselves and each other. One of the things that I have seen through your school, all your schooling years, is like, if the parents are fighting, like, your mom and I had that bad spell for 6 months when we were going through—

I was in the 6th grade.

Yeah. But like, whenever the parents are fighting, you can see it in the kids. Like, you could probably at this age, like, or let me ask you, how, how, how clear is it for you to be able to walk around your school and know whose parents have been like where there's like home strife and has been for like more than a couple months.

Yeah, it's— I would say it's incredibly clear.

Yeah.

And sometimes I don't notice it right away, and then I'll meet the parents, I'm like, ah, that's why. I don't— it's sometimes it's just funny and like, duh, but other times it's so sad.

Yeah.

Like, I've been like so upset with this person for how they're behaving, or so frustrated by it. Um, I don't know, there was a girl on the basketball team and always seeking attention and in ways that were just so, just distracting and frustrating to be around. And, um, one day she asked for a ride home. I gave her a ride home and she started talking about what it was like living in her home and how she, she basically, she, I don't know, she said it really clearly. She's like, I I never feel like they pay me any attention. I was like, oh, she's not feeling loved or cared for or feeling like her parents like have any time to give her attention, so she's looking for it in every other place.

Yeah.

And just continuing that pattern, it made me really, really sad.

Yeah.

And, and like extraordinarily grateful at the same time of like, oh, I get to go to school and not need to seek the attention or the approval of the people around me because I feel secure and I, I like, I get what I need at home, you know?

Yeah. How did your relationship with her change once you saw that?

It just kind of turned into compassion. Parts of her still bothered the fuck out of me.

Yeah.

Um, but under the frustration that I had towards her, it was like more of a deeper understanding of where that came from. Yeah. And also, she's considerably younger than me, 3 years maybe. And I was like, oh, like, I can't obviously be her parent by any means.

Yeah.

But I can show her that she's loved and that she's cared for because the pattern that she's working out with our team and everything makes her the outcast and ostracized and people don't like her and everything. And so, I don't know, we just had our last game and She was sobbing and gave me like the biggest hug and she was like, thank you for, for making me feel like a part of this team.

Yeah.

And I didn't even feel like a part of the team necessarily, but it was just like, you did. It just was such a, like, I don't know.

Yeah.

It was really sweet.

Yeah.

Yeah. I, I have one other question. Could you, could you tell me a little bit, a little bit more about what your childhood, or not your childhood, but your, teenagehood was like?

Yeah, I mean, it was full rebellion against my parents. It was, you know, you know, back then it was like everybody dressed pretty much the same, and if you dressed different, there wasn't like, oh, you have like— people are more gothic, more like punk, more new wave, and all that was cool. It was like that you were either normal or you were not normal, right? And so I was like not normal. And I just like, this is 14 or so, I would run away from home. I would not come back for a couple of days. I had a mohawk. My parents kicked me out of the house.

A green mohawk.

A green mohawk. My parents kicked me out of the house. I tried to get a job. The police showed up, took me to counseling with my parents. The counselor pretty much told my parents like, This isn't his issue. He's 14. This is your issue. My parents' response to that was put me in a boarding school. And the first boarding school didn't click very well. I was disturbed. I was like one of the, like, if you think about like one of the most disturbed kids in your class, that was me. Like, I lied a lot. I didn't feel confident. I was one of the smallest kids in the class. I smoked. I like, you know, you got yelled at at the dinner table every night. Every night. Yeah. While I was home, I would get yelled at for like an hour, hour and a half every night. Yeah. And like, if I tried to stop, my dad, who was in his full alcoholism at the time, was like, see, I told you you were weak. Like, there was no way out. Like, I was— and like, in retrospect, you know, my parents' marriage was was having a rough time because of my dad's alcoholism. And so they were coming together over me, the problem, as a way to stay together. Like, that's, that's— I think it happens a lot, which is like, like a— it's kind of, I think the theory is called like family crucible, where one of the kids acts out as a way for the parents to come together.

Yeah.

And save the family. And, and so it was just, that's, that— it was really bad. And then I'm the Senate— like, the cool thing that my dad— my— the, the cool thing about my father is he was always there for me. He was like, he was always— if I got in trouble, he was there. If I got arrested, he was there. If I had a problem with a teacher, he was there. Like, there— this was like, it was us. Some way, if there was a problem with the outside world, he would show up for me. And, and we were going back to the same school for the second year, and we— I went to visit a friend who had changed schools, and when I went to this second school, I was like, this is the school for me. And he was like, okay, and he did whatever. He did it just like right there on the spot.

Wow.

I went to that school. That's where I met Lowell Tuttle.

Yeah.

Who became like a father figure to me, but someone who actually loved me for who I was. And, and so by the time I was a high school senior, um, I was not in boarding school anymore, and I was straight-A student and I was well adjusted. And however, like that trauma, I don't think I was really through the thick of that till I was like 33.

Wow.

You know, like the yelling that my parents did to me, Tara and I did, your mom and I did with each other in the first couple years of our marriage. Um, the, the feeling of aloneness, the feeling of emotional abandonment, like that stuff. Yeah, like lasted for a long time. I mean, there's still obviously there's never a time when the residue of how you were raised goes completely away. Like there's still like little pieces to it. But, but yeah, I would, if I hadn't done a lot of the work because I wanted the marriage to work, it was, it'd be a shit show. I'd be, I would be like my father probably, right? Which you, you know what that was like.

Yeah.

And that was when he wasn't drunk.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. And somehow grateful for the whole thing. Like, like somehow I don't think that I could do any of the work that I do. And I don't, I, if I had been raised in a different way, I don't think I could do the work that I do because it would be harder for me to relate to all the different traumas that people have been through.

That makes sense.

And I think to some degree, I think I would raise you with the same love and respect, but there's some way that like I, I can, I think I see you more fully because of like of the depths of shit that I went through.

Makes sense. The compassion, you've lived it. You, yeah. Thanks for chatting.

You're welcome.

Thank you.

That was really fun.

Good to be with you.

I love you.

I love you. Thank your teacher for making this happen.

I don't know what Yes, I'm a winner. I think it's NPR. I think I'm a— yeah, sending it into a competition. Okay. All right.

Zoids.

I love you.

Love you too.

Bye.

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