Passive Aggression

When we allow ourselves to be aggressive to ourselves, then we allow almost in kind other people to be that aggressive with us. We expect it. As we learn to love ourselves, then we're not going to accept it from the outside world.

Welcome to The Art of Accomplishment, where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease. I'm I'm Brett Kistler, here today with my co-host, Joe Hudson. Hi, Joe. Hi, Brett.

Good to see you.

Yeah, good to see you too. All right. So we do, we do a lot of work with anger in this work. And one thing that I've seen you say a lot of times in courses or even in a coaching session is like, let's make the passive aggression active. Let's like really bring it forward. And so we've, we've done a lot of talking about about anger and how to move that aggression. And I want to now take this episode and go into the passive aggression and see what it is. How does it show up in people's lives?

Yeah.

I want to really go into the kind of the nitty-gritty into the subtlety and how we can work with it.

Yeah.

How's that sound?

Sounds great. I would love that.

Awesome. Let's do it. So just to start with, I want to really just define our term. What is, how do you define passive aggression?

The form of aggression that triggered me for the longest period of time in my life. I think, um, passive aggression is just— you could, I mean, you could almost call it covert aggression, but it's, it's basically aggression that's not being owned as aggression. Sometimes not by the person who's doing it, sometimes not by the person who it's being done to, but it's basically, I'm upset, but I'm not allowed to be angry, and therefore I'm going to be passively angry. So I'm going to figure out a way to attack you that isn't fully admitting to myself or to somebody else, um, that it's an attack. And, and that, that's what it is. And it's, and it's typically based in fear. And the fact that it's passive is typically based in the fear of being outwardly aggressive about something.

Got it. So the, the difference between passive and active aggression is in some sense the owning of it.

Yeah, it's, it's the recognition. Some people can own passive aggression, but they're still going to hide it. Um, it's, it's how good are you with your own anger, your own aggression, your, to some degree, your own ambition. Um, like the more that you're able to be in love with those aspects of yourself, the less likely it's going to be that you're going to be passive in your aggression.

So what would be the difference then if the definition there is of like, is around the awareness around the owning of it? What's the difference between passive aggression and somebody who's like, just like straight up screaming and they're not even aware that they're mad?

Like, I'm not mad.

You're mad. What's the distinction there from passive aggression to that, that form of aggression?

Yeah, that's great. Yeah. So the passive aggression is going to find ways that are not direct at the aggression. So I'm not mad.

You're mad. Blah, blah, blah.

That's very, that's very direct. It's like, boom, here you are. Bam, bam, bam, you're, you're the problem, I'm not the problem, that kind of a thing. Passive aggression is like guilt. Guilt's a perfect example of passive aggression. Yeah, I am going to try to manipulate you, needle you, which is an aggressive act. I'm going to try to get you to do something, but I'm going to do it in a way that I look like I'm the victim. And oftentimes, not all, but oftentimes in passive aggression, the person who's doing it is, uh, is in the role of the victim. Like, I'm stuck, woe is me, I can't, can't be me doing it. Like, you know, I'm the one that's being hurt here. And if you really want to see someone go from passive aggression to aggression, like, take away their victim role. Like, and we can talk about that later, but that's the thing is that it's very much not direct. And so guilt is a great example of passive aggression because you're trying— you're being aggressive in the fact that you're trying to change somebody, that you're trying to tell them how to be or make them be a particular way, but you're not doing it with any kind of ownership at all. You're not saying, hey, I want you to be this way, or goddamn, I'm going to yell at you if you're not this way. Yeah, it's like, you know, it's like that.

Yeah. So kind of what I'm hearing there is that if like the act of aggression is I want to change you and I'm aware of it and that's like what I'm clear is happening. And the passive aggression is, I'm trying to change you or get you to do something and pretend that I'm not. Like, I don't want you to see that I'm trying to do this to change you.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah. And maybe they don't even see it themselves. And sometimes they do. Like, sometimes, you know, mothers will sit around and talk about how good of guilt trippers they are. And some people will guilt trip you and they won't even know that, that they're doing it or they'll be, you know, be hidden from them that they're doing it, right? Or they'll think that, yeah, I'm doing it, but it's my only choice. You know, there'll be like those kinds of thought processes that happen.

Yeah.

What's interesting to me about it is that typically if a child was raised with passive aggression, it's incredibly hard for them to see that it's happening to them. So like, if, if Mom's guilt-tripping them, they're gonna feel like they've done something wrong and Mom has is like, woe is me, poor victim, like has something bad has happened to her, that they're selfish. And it's very hard for them to see like, oh, actually my mom's being aggressive.

Yeah.

You know, just in a passive form. My mom's manipulating me in a passive form. My mom is attacking me in a passive form.

Yeah. And so of course that can continue on into adulthood as well. So now my next question is like, what are, What are some examples of passive-aggressive behavior that we might encounter in our everyday life?

Yeah.

Including some examples people might not expect.

Yeah.

They've been swimming in it.

Guilt. Talking about somebody behind their back, certain, like, in a, in a way that has some mal— like, there's ways of talking about somebody and being like, I'm processing this so that I can fall in love with them more, but, or I can learn to like them or resolve my own issue. But if you're talking about them as a way to like turn somebody's opinion on them or to make yourself above them or to prove that you're better than or whatever, then that's like an incredible form of passive aggression. Being late, uh, can be a form of passive aggression. Um, particularly perpetual lateness, particularly perpetual lateness for a particular kind of person, right? Like that. I know people that are always on time, but always late for their mother as an example. Um, saying you're going to do something and not doing it, uh, is another one. Um, confusion can be one. Where like you never give the answer, you always get confused. And so the person playing dumb, it's like, you know, needling is another one. Just like little small sarcasms, little undermining things is another great example of ways to be passive-aggressive. Aggressive. In fact, I have a story about this. This is like a lovely story. So my mom and dad, they had a relationship where my dad yelled and my mom was like apparently the victim. And she would feel like, why did I put up with this? Or why am I putting up with this? But she would just like kind of constantly stay. And then my dad died and my mom came up to the house and my girls, after like 2 days, looked at me and they're like, why do I want to yell at your mom? Like, they're like, it's so strange that like, we don't want to yell at anybody, but we want to yell at your mom. Like, what's going on there? And I'm like, yeah, my mom's needling you. My mom's like giving you these little itty-bitty jabs that you can hardly tell they're happening, like tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. And then pretty soon you get like really frustrated. And, and so she's inviting your aggression with her passive aggression. And that's, that was the thing that was happening in almost all relationship where there's somebody who's really aggressive, there's a passive-aggressive relationship that's going on. And so that's a, like, a perfect example of it. And it's so subtle that my kids couldn't even see that they were being needled, right? And it was just like needling, and it was comparing. Oh, you do this, but you do that. It was like these little comparisons that were happening. And yeah, yeah, that's a— that's an example.

I think that can especially happen in a relationship with somebody that you love or that you want to love. You want there to be— you want to feel love from them, and so you kind of just kind of plow under those little needles and just like, oh, they didn't, they didn't mean that. Or that's not what I'm—

yeah.

You're like seeing, seeing the good in them, but not really seeing necessarily the aggression or not, not feeling the hurt.

Right. And, and also, yeah, there's so many things. So if somebody's in that place where they're passive-aggressive and they're not really— and you want, you're going to have to admit that to yourself for you to see that this is what's going on. One is you're like, you have to question their, their love for you. There's that questioning that goes on. Two is if you question it, there's a good chance they're going to get really aggressive. And so to some degree it's like, right, so I can either have my mom needle me or yell at me. Like, there's some version of that that also happens. Like, oh, what's going to happen if I like throw away the veil? Like, yeah, when we look at the Oz behind the curtain, what's, what's really going to go down? Um, and then the other, the other thing that you really have to to do when you, when you recognize that somebody is, is being passive-aggressive with you is to, to draw a boundary that is, that's going to be uncomfortable typically. And it's going to be, it's uncomfortable. There's some boundaries that are uncomfortable because you're scared that if I draw them, I'll get attacked. And this uncomfortable boundary is typically I'm going to draw it and they're going to deny it, which is like very gaslighty. Gaslighting, another form of passive aggression, by the way, or sometimes it's directly aggressive, but yeah.

Yeah. Interesting.

And so I'm going to get gaslit. So that's another thing.

Yeah. Yeah. So you talked about the veil.

Yeah. Yeah.

And that makes me just wonder like, what is, what is the adaptive purpose or function of passive aggression? How does it, how does it develop?

Yeah.

How do we develop passive aggression, passive aggressive tendencies? What's What makes that serve us in any way?

Yeah, so I don't know about serve. That's a good question. What I know is how they, how they come to pass. So typically what happens is somebody isn't allowed to be aggressive in a home, right? So if I'm aggressive, if I get angry, they're, they're gonna get even angrier and, you know, or it doesn't work like with my daughter and her sister, my other daughter. One day I was like, you, you're crying, but you look like you're angry. I'm sure I've told this story before. And she's, I'm like, how often are you actually, you know, angry when you look sad? She's 50% of the time. I was like, huh, why? She's like, because if I get angry at my sister, she just hits me. But if I get sad at my sister, she does what I want her to do, which is, by the way, another form of passive aggression. Getting sad at people, getting scared at people. Those are great forms of passive aggression. Where I'm basically trying to manipulate you through my emotional experience, but at the same time, I'm the victim. I'm the one that's hurt.

Yeah.

Um, so it's an adaptive behavior because that aggression has to go somewhere. We're like born with a certain amount of aggression. We're born with a certain amount of anger, or life is going to throw stuff at us that's going to make us angry. Like, that's just the nature of life and the nature of being human. And so you don't get to have that temper tantrum, if you don't get to have that anger, if you're girls— good girls don't get angry, don't yell— then it's going to be more and more passive aggression. And like, watching girls of certain cultures that's in 7th grade, it's really fucking apparent that they weren't allowed to be aggressive. And so there's like this crazy amount of passive aggression, of talking behind each other's back, of gossiping, of making people feel small in all these subtle ways. It's all, it's all very aggressive behavior, you know, and it's weird because boys, they'll hit each other. It's just, I'm not saying I'm not supporting that kind of bullying, but passive-aggressive, it's just as destructive, just as bullying. It's just, we don't, we don't, we as a society don't like to look at it and go, oh, that's, that's equally not acceptable or equally aggressive even, or equally aggressive or equally as damaging. Yeah, because we really buy into that, the victim story of, you know, I am including the victim, the of, oh, I'm, I'm the one that's hurt, I'm stuck.

Yeah. So how does passive aggression show up in, in like personal relationships and work relationships, like over time? We're talking about right now kind of atomic instances, moments of passive aggression. How about like how it builds and affects a a marriage over 20 years.

Oh yeah. Or, or a work culture fucking kills it. Kills, kills both of them.

I would—

I think it's far easier to get a functional work or marriage out of aggression than it is out of passive aggression. So it's, it's usually why when we're talking to people, we're like, oh hey, can you make that passive aggression into aggressive? That's the reason, is because once you actually see the problem and everybody can acknowledge the problem, then it's easier to fix. So typically, somebody feels like they can't be aggressive with their wants, they can't get angry. And so some— another person in the relationship feels like they can be aggressive with their wants, can. The first person gets resentful, and so they start doing all these passive-aggressive things in response to— in response to the person getting their needs met or whatever it is. And so there's just like this undermining thing that happens. Um, a great example of this is that, um, so I know this couple that's been married for, oh gosh, 20 years or some, some, something like that. And the man in the couple, the woman is like the powerhouse and the man, you know, feels like he isn't getting his needs or wants met. And so whatever the, the woman wants, he just doesn't do it. He says he's going to do it, but he doesn't. Like, hey, there's that like broken down car in the front. And it's like, yeah, I'll take care of it. And then 2 weeks later, nothing's been taken care of. And she's like starting to get angry, like, why aren't you taking care of the thing? And he's like, I can do it. But I now I feel really bad. I feel horrible because like I should do it and I'm not doing it. And so now I feel really bad and like, and then the woman's like, I can't even tell him like that he hasn't done his thing because now he goes into a depression. And so I've lost my husband in the connection, which is more passive aggression. For, you know, whatever, 2 weeks because now he's in a depression. And by the way, the car still hasn't fucking moved. So now I can't even complain about it and I can't, and I can't ask for it to be moved because otherwise I'm going to like suffer all this shit. So she starts getting resentful and then he's resentful. And so there's just this massive resentment that happens and then everybody gets scared to actually ask for what they want because there's all this passive aggression that's occurring. And so it basically stagnates, um, like the ability to express what you want and need, and therefore stagnates the marriage or the business.

Yeah.

Oh, I can't say that. Like, we were just at that company that I won't mention the name of, but everybody felt like they had to be nice.

Yeah.

And so nobody could say things like, the company's in fucking trouble and we have to do a better job, we have to be A-players if we're going to keep our jobs, because that would be seen as No, no, like, that's not nice. That's not a nice thing to say. Like, crazy.

Yeah.

So that, that's what it does. It just, it, and it just like, it's a very, in a relationship, if you see a very slow decline with everybody trying to like smooth over and walk on eggshells, you know, there's just like a shit ton of passive aggression going on in the relationship.

Yeah. One, one thing I heard there in, in that story or just in, in that overall description of how this plays out is that there's a step in there that often happens where there's like a withdrawal of love. Like, I'm just going to withdraw. And that could be, I'm going to withdraw from the resentment or the passive aggression, but it could also be its own form of passive aggression.

Correct.

Like, fine, you know, that kind. And so I'm curious to, to go into a little bit more deeply, what are some of the ways that people tend to respond to passive aggression that feed the cycle.

Yeah, that's great. I love what you just said about like the withdrawal of love. So just to speak about that for a second before we get into the question, what's amazing to me is that like if we withdraw love, it hurts us. Like it's a way in which we are cutting off love from ourselves, right? So when we are open to love, if we're loving somebody else, not caretaking, But loving somebody, actually loving somebody else, the love equally comes to us and through us and to them. Cutting it off, you're cutting off that love. It's really quite a painful experience once you really realize what it's like to live with an open heart. To close it is just sucks. And, and so we're doing one, one of the main forms of passive aggression, and it's a great like metaphor for the whole thing, is to cut off love from another person. Like, oh, I'm gonna I'm gonna withhold my love from you until you do what I want, or just to punish you, or just vindictiveness. But oftentimes when it's happening, you feel it as I'm protecting myself. You don't feel it as I am trying to hurt this other person, right? The other person might feel it. They might. And even if they don't say it, they might feel guilty, but they felt that withdrawal. They felt like they've done something wrong. And so it's just this very interesting thing where sometimes that passive aggression is consciously known and sometimes it is not. It is, no, I'm just protecting myself. So that's just an interesting thing about it. Um, so onto your question, which was, can you remind me?

Yeah, just, uh, I mean, you answered it pretty well there, but maybe there's more ways. What are, what are some of the ways that people tend to respond to passive aggressive behavior that tend to spin it, spiral it out of proportion even more deeply.

Yeah. So there's, you know, it's the same way that people react to aggressive behavior. So some people walk on eggshells. Oh my gosh. Like, I don't do that or I'll break them. Oh my gosh. And so they hold back their truth as a way to not break the situation or not break the person or not create a response, not create the depression, not create whatever. So there's like this tentativeness. And that's how some people react to aggression, like, oh, I gotta worry about this person getting angry. The other way is the other way people respond to anger, which is more fucking anger, right? Which is the relationship that my dad had with my mom, which was— but he would feel bad about it. He would be like, ah, shit, like, I shouldn't be yelling. And she was like, yeah, you shouldn't be yelling. But she was also provoking the thing and not being able to own it, which is one of the things that's really interesting. If you look at the golden algorithm of passive aggression, oftentimes somebody was learned to be passive aggression because they couldn't be aggressive. Somebody was more aggressive than them. And so their passive aggression is the thing that's creating the emotion that they're trying to avoid, which is someone attacking them, right? That feeling of, oh my God, I'm scared somebody's attacking me. Their passive aggression is creating it. So there's this beautiful golden algorithm to passive aggression, often to create that aggressive experience in return.

Yeah. And for those just listening to this and haven't heard that episode, there's an episode on the golden algorithm that goes really deeply into how, how the thing we're avoiding recreates the feeling we're avoiding exactly the way we avoid it.

Yeah. So, yeah. So those are the two ways that they either walk on eggshells or they get aggressive back. And that's, that makes them worse. That, that's what makes the passive aggression get even worse. It fuels the fire.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. And there's, there's another one that you mentioned in there. I don't know if this is another category of thing, but you mentioned sometimes people will go into shame and like, how can going into shame be a form of passive aggression? Like, okay, look, now you've lost me. I'm collapsing. See, now you've done wrong. And you've got to fix this, right?

So again, yes. So you can, like, you know, I was talking to a client the other day, his mom's, uh, came over from Europe to, to help take care of their kid. And, and it was like everything was, I'm being put upon. And so, you know, he was very much actively trying to say, hey, it really hurts when you criticize the way we're taking care of the kid. Oh, am I not allowed to say my piece? Am I not allowed to like share my opinion? Fine. If you, if I'm not allowed to share my opinion, I want to share my opinion here, right? Like it's like that kind of like whatever thing he asked for, she wasn't aggressive. Like, don't tell me how to behave. She was basically making everything an oppression, right? So that she could maintain this thing. And I was, I said, hey, try this one out for a minute. Just every time she criticizes, say ouch. And at first it was like, hey, uh, I didn't hurt you. And he would say, yeah, but it hurt, so I'm saying ouch. And eventually, like, she couldn't be in the position of passive aggression anymore because every time he said ouch. So it became really clear who, who was being hurt in that moment. But she really fought for a while, like, no, you can't take— I'm the hurt one. I'm like, You can't take that from me. You can't take the hurt one from me. That's me. And so that's often like the story of passive aggression is that when the person who's being passive-aggressive doesn't want to have the role of I'm the hurt one taken away.

Yeah.

Or I'm the non-aggressor.

Yeah. And then I'm also noticing how, how could somebody say ouch in a passive-aggressive way? Like, ow, you hurt me versus like, Ouch.

Upright. Yeah. Yeah. So the, so the difference there is like, are you empowered? Do you feel empowered? Are you clear that you're making a choice and that you're not stuck? So generally it is when we've like, so if we're in the fear triangle and we have an episode on that, if you're in the fear triangle, if you're in the bully, you're not being passive aggressive. But if you're in the victim, you're almost all of your aggression is passive aggression. And so if you feel like you're stuck, you feel like you have no choice, you, you're just blaming somebody else internally, blaming somebody else for your situation. I guarantee you're being passive-aggressive in some way. Yeah. Or, or if you're not, you're going to be in the next, you know, day. Like, that's, that's the way it works is like, if you feel stuck and you're blaming, then that, that is even the blame is a form of passive aggression.

Yeah.

Because you're blaming somebody for your situation that you have full choice in.

Yeah. So this kind of leads into the next question, which it's somewhat natural now is to ask, what could somebody do differently than what we've just previously described as the things that tend to invite more passive aggression? And now I want to kind of maybe tweak the questions, maybe not what people do differently, but it's how do they be?

Yeah.

It's like, It's maybe even the question is how do we own our own aggression, our own empowerment in such a way that we respond to passive aggression in a way that diffuses the dynamic? And what are some of the ways that that might look?

Yeah. Yeah. So, so I think the first, the most important thing is that like, don't meet aggression with aggression. Typically, occasionally you need to, but typically meeting aggression with aggression leads to a power dynamic, so leads to more fear triangle. So, so, and one, the most common form of aggression that you would have is that I want to change you. So trying to change the person's passive aggression is, is you're like, it's, you're entering the dynamic with them either by I'm gonna be angry at you to change you, or I'm gonna, I'm gonna walk on eggshells to change you. Or I'm going to try to convince you to change. Like, any, anything like that. That's, that's really the dynamic. And so you want to— the way to undo it is to not try to change them, but you can own your own experience. So one of the ways to do that is, ouch, that hurt. One of the ways to do that is to draw a boundary, like, oh, I'm not really interested in being guilt-tripped. One of the ways to do that is just own what's happening. Oh, hey, that feels like you're guilt-tripping me. What, what would make you guilt-trip me right now? Be in view, any of those things. Again, it's really easy to make any of those things passive-aggressive. So the only way to do it is to really be in touch with your own empowerment, which is, I think, the most critical piece, which is you are making a choice to avoid a certain consequence and to own that choice. Like, you don't get to control the consequences, but you get to control the choices that you make. And so to really own that you're making that choice, I think is a really good first step, internal step to changing a passive-aggressive dynamic. Uh, also boundaries are just really, really good. Like, oh, I don't want to be criticized. And the response might be like, I'm not criticizing you. Am I not allowed to say what I want? Oh, you're welcome to say what you want. And when I feel criticized, I am going to I am going to walk away, or I am going to say ouch, or I am going to tell you that I feel criticized so that you know, so you can act accordingly, whatever it is that your reaction is going to be. So I think boundaries is a really good one, just like any form of anger at you or sadness at you, fear. I think boundaries is a really good, is a really good choice. And, and just owning it and just saying what it is out loud, I think is really important.

Yeah.

If you're in the dynamic of receiving passive aggression, if you're in the dynamic of giving passive aggression, then there's other things that you might want to be doing. But, but receiving it, it's, you don't enter the dynamic and you, and you don't accept someone being aggressive with you or trying to change you by force.

Yeah. And what I'm noticing here is that on either side of that dynamic, there is some form of unowned aggression and a lot of the cases we've just described.

Yes.

So if you, if you think you're not, if you think you're receiving passive aggression, how do you know? Like, if someone's listening to this and they're like, oh, I'm surrounded by passive aggression.

Yes.

How do you know if it's actually you're receiving it or you're the source of it and you're projecting it and creating it?

If you're triggered by it, then you're, you're at least part of the source of it. Yeah. So, um, definitely, definitely. Like, if you're triggered by passive aggression, that means that there's some part of your own passive aggression, and particularly maybe just towards yourself. Maybe it's just the voice in your head that you're not owning and, and not loving and not saying, oh, I, I really want this, I really like desire this, I want it, the world to be this way, and that's okay. Like, giving yourself that that, that recognition that you're at choice. And so that's not happening, and you're not loving that aspect of yourself. Typically, if you are— if you're surrounded by passive aggression, you're like, oh, check that out, you're not triggered by it, then you're not the source. And I don't mean that in a disassociated way either. I think there's some people who are like— there's some people are like, I am not bothered at all by all of this passive aggression. That's not what I'm talking about, right? Then you're probably very much being passive-aggressive and being passive-aggressive. Yeah.

Yeah. So you mentioned something really interesting there about internal, like it might just be with yourself. How would you recognize if you're being passive-aggressive with yourself?

Oh man. There's so many ways that we're passive-aggressive with ourselves. One of my favorites, this is going to bother a lot of people, but one of my favorites is the, like the, like super helpful coach self-talk. It's like, you can do it, everything's great. Like, yeah, like, and you're like, you know, one part of you is like, oh man, this day's crap. Turn that frown upside down, says that. Like, it's like you're basically saying you're not allowed to feel this way, I need you to feel this way. Like, that's a form of aggression. And, and so, but you're not— you're doing it in the form of like, hey, I'm this really good friend who's a happy coach. And, and, you know, we've all seen the dozens of movies about somebody who's like really trying to live like that for 20 years and then goes into this deep dark hole. And, and those movies are made because there's a reality to that. So the passive aggression usually ends up just like in a relationship, into some fucking explosion.

Yeah.

You know, I don't know why we seemed happy and then he just left after 20 years, or she just left. Like, there's a lot of passive aggression going on in those relationships. So similarly in the head, that's one form. Another way that, um, we can be passive-aggressive is that if you look at the way the voice in the head typically works, there's, and it's different for everybody in this, but there's often a bully, which is like, you gotta lose weight. You gotta, you gotta work harder. You gotta make more friends. You're 40 years old and you don't own a house yet. Whatever the thing the bully is saying. And then there's the other side of it, which is like, yeah, 'Yeah, I'm gonna get right to that,' like, or, 'Oh yeah, no, that's never gonna work. I'm never gonna change. This is never gonna happen.' I'm like, the part of the internal dialogue that goes, 'Oh, I just saw that thing. How do I make it stay?' That's like passive aggression. That's, that's like, it's an undermining. It's a saying that like, you can't, it's not gonna work. It's like that little, 'Yeah, this is never gonna work.' That part of your voice in your head also can be incredibly passive-aggressive, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. I'm also like wondering how many, I'm just curious, like how many, how many people listening to this right now are like, oh yeah, all the passive aggression that I see out there that's triggering me, this is like really good fodder for my own growth. And then once I've done all that growth, I'm no longer triggered by it. Everything will change and I will have fixed all of the passive aggression around me in the world. And I'm wondering. Like, what do you see in there?

Yeah, you're not wrong. That's— there's truth to that. And it's a very slow, inefficient path. Do all that. Great. Fantastic. And draw boundaries and, and see what it's like to hold a boundary to the aggression. So the thing about it is when we allow ourselves to be aggressive to ourselves, then we allow almost in kind other people to be that aggressive with us. We expect it. Right? And, and it's okay. Of course, we're living with it every day. Why would we think it's not okay? As we learn to love ourselves, as we say, no, that kind of self-talk, that kind of internal relationship is not okay. I'm not living with that. Then we're not going to accept it from the outside world. Vice versa. If we say, hey, I'm not going to accept that past. I'm not accepting guilt trips from you, Mom, anymore. It's not happening. I love you. I want to interact with you. I care about you. But when you do guilt trips, I am going to leave, or I am going to say, Mom, please don't do a guilt trip on me, and I'll just keep on repeating it until you stop whatever I'm going to do. When I say that, I am sending a very strong signal to the voice in my head that I'm not doing that to my— this is unacceptable. So both ways work. And, and so to do them both at the same time is a far more efficient path than to do it like I'm going to fix it all myself and then go out into the outside world and be I'm going to be, you know, happy.

Yeah.

And everybody's going to not be passive-aggressive with me because the truth is, if you're interacting with people, they're going to be passive-aggressive with you and you're going to like, you know, be triggered by it or not be triggered by it, interact with it or not interact with it. Those are all the choices that you have.

So let's say somebody who's done a lot of this work and they're recognizing the way that they've been triggered by passive aggression and then they work through that trigger and naturally they're going to start to see it. Wherever it is.

Yeah.

And they might find themselves swimming in a culture where passive aggression is a norm.

Yeah.

This could be any culture in different ways.

Yeah.

Not to call out any particular culture. So what, you know, what happens when, when a person finds themselves just swimming in it?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, first I just noticed that, like, so there's acting, being kind because you have an open heart and you want to be kind. And then there's like being polite and being nice. And I noticed the more nice and polite a culture is, oftentimes the more passive-aggressive— passive aggression is built in. There's like a kind of a built-in, like that very nice, everybody's very nice to us in this neighborhood. And like, that's the neighborhood where there's going to be a shit ton of gossip. That's the, that's the neighborhood where there's going to be a lot of people talking about each other behind their back. And so, and whereas cultures where that isn't like, there's no expectation of civility, niceness, like in that way. If it's not heartfelt and it's like, yeah, it's totally okay to say, goddammit, that I'm upset with you. Then there's going to be like less passive aggression. Then the place where passive aggression in those societies are going to, if someone's like a bully yeller, there's going to be the person on the other side of the fear triangle, like the victim who's going to fall into that passive aggression. So, so that's typically where you'll see it in a society. What do you do in that society is, is interesting, right? So The other day, Tara and I were sitting at this coffee shop and we were just like, we had had a long day and we were just kind of spacing out. And there was a couple sitting near us and they walked out and I heard them say, oh my God, that was so rude. Like, what makes them think they could do that? Or something like that. And I was like, oh wow, they're speaking about us. Cause we were just staring out into the air, but we were staring in their direction. And so they felt watched. And I totally appreciate how like that, that I like, I could see someone going, yeah, that was, that's rude. But that's like, that's one of those like, oh, this is a societal norm that we have a contract in our little part of society that that's not okay. There's other parts of society where people are like, yeah, staring at somebody is not a problem. That's kind of what you do if you're just hanging out together. Um, and so, so it's just like the more of those kind of like norms, the more of that like setup where this is what I can do and this is what I can't do. And it gets more and more complicated often. You're going to get more, you're going to get more passive aggression. If you don't want to do that, then you have to feel like you're not actually obligated to those norms, which is really, really scary. And it's, it reminds me of this story. I think it's a Buddhist story, but it's like, you know, similar to Jesus, um, going out into the desert and getting like the three temptations. I believe that Mira, Mara, I can't remember, had three temptations for Buddha and Um, and one of the temptations was like societal norms. Like the temptation is like, what will society think of you? Like your reputation in society? Like, and so there's a, an, you can't believe those things if you're going to, like, you can believe like, oh, if I hurt somebody, that's not okay. That's moral. But if it's just like these arbitrary rules that have been set up so that people can stay comfortable.

Hmm.

If you feel those, then you're gonna, you're bound to be more and more passive-aggressive and be caught up in it. If you cannot, if you can see through those things, you can say, oh, like, that's a choice that I can make, but it's a choice I get to make. And I'm not a bad person because I'm not doing what this particular part of society wants me to do. Then there's less of a chance of you falling into the passive-aggressive behavior. Um, at the same time, you're probably, if you're in a passive-aggressive society, you're going to receive a certain amount of that. And if that's going to trigger you until it doesn't, until you can see through that, until you're not that way with yourself, or you're going to say, I don't want to live in that kind of a society, which I think a ton of people do. I think our cities are full of young people who are like, I don't want to live in that fucking passive-aggressive society in the Midwest or in the South or in fucking Modesto, whatever. I don't want to live in that. And so they come to a place where they hope that they can find more freedom and make their own social norms.

So I want to go back and double-click a little bit on kind of how we opened the episode with taking passive aggression and making it active.

Yeah.

And I'm, I'm curious, like, what do you mean when you invite people into turning their passive aggression into active aggression? And like, what are some of the guardrails around that within, whether it's in a course or in coaching or maybe in somebody in a relationship when they're realizing someone's being passive aggressive with them and it's a partner and they're just like, hey, you know what, I, I welcome your aggression. What are, what are some ways to have that not go totally sideways, or at least welcome the dumpster fire? Yeah, yeah, in a healthy way.

So what, what I would say is that, you know, our rule is, rule of thumb is that we don't get angry at somebody. So that doesn't matter if it's aggressive anger or passive-aggressive anger, like we don't get angry at somebody without permission. And so you want to be permiss— you give, get permission. So we'll, and if we're facilitating somebody and we're getting paid to help somebody work with this stuff, we'll be like, hey, that's passive, let's make it aggressive, and like invite them into experiencing that. You don't need to do it at anybody, you can just do it. You can just get into a room and, and move the anger that's underneath the passive aggression, and that's going to be your most effective way to reduce the amount of passive aggression. Also, that you're that you're, that you're doing. The other thing is to really admit that it's passive aggression is really, really useful. Here's all the things that I do when I want to get my way and, and I'm, and I'm not directly asking for it. Write them all down. And those are all passive aggression, all forms of passive aggression that you can look at. So admitting it to yourself is a really important thing. Um, moving the anger outwardly, but not at anybody is great. If somebody wants to give you permission, fantastic. If they do, I, I, it's very tentative. It's very risky, especially if it's in a long-term relationship. There can be a lot of retraumatization and damage. So I really recommend if you're going to do that, at least the first couple of times, do it with a professional. And also if you're going to, um, do that at any time the person wants to stop, you stop. Um, so it's, you know, so that somebody can actually feel like they're in control, that they're not just being yelled at and retraumatizing themselves. So that's, that's another thing, I think. Um, also just recognizing that you have choice and you can ask for what you want. A lot of passive aggression stops when somebody feels like, oh, I can just ask for what I want. And typically it's gonna be like, I can't ask for what I want because he's not gonna say yes anyways, or I can't ask for what I want because then the marriage might fail. There's gonna always be some reason that you're stuck on the other side of it, and it's gonna seem really, really real. Um, but that's a choice you're making, and you have to recognize like, oh, I'm choosing not to ask for what I want because this is the trade that I'm making for that. And until it feels empowered, until you can't blame anybody and you don't feel stuck, that it's a choice, then it's going to continue to be passive aggression. So those are, those are some of the things that you can do to really start loosening up your own passive aggression, passive aggressive actions. Also, drawing boundaries is fantastic. If you're being passive aggressive, oftentimes, like my mom, when we had this conversation about you know, how she was making it so people wanted to yell at her. You know, earlier we had talked about my dad. It's like, if you want my dad to stop yelling at you, it's really easy. You just say, hey, when you yell at me, I'm going to leave. My dad couldn't have lived without my mom. He would like— so all she had to do was just like walk out of the house for 3 hours every time he yelled at her, and it would have been done in a couple, 3 weeks. And so it's like drawing that boundary is a really— asking for what you want, drawing the boundary, those are the skills to stop the passive aggression.

Yeah. I'm also curious for, for whoever's listening to this and they're like, oh, that like make the passive aggression active. That's a great idea. And then they want to go to their spouse and be like, hey, you're being passive aggressive, make it active. Or they go to their team and they're like, okay, enough of this passive aggression, like bring it. And like, that's, that's part of, part of my question there is like, what is the guidance or the—

Don't do that.

The warning or the—

Yeah, my guidance is don't fucking do that. Like you're trying to change somebody else. You're, you're. Doing the same thing they're doing, just in a different way. It's, it's the same. It's the same habit. It's the same pattern, just recreating itself. It's not your job. If you want to be in a loving relationship, love the person and, and yourself the way that you are, and don't be trying to change them. And so that whole, you should be, you should do this, you da da da da, that's you trying to manipulate them. Now you can invite them to it and say, hey, you know, I noticed this kind of thing is happening. How would you feel? Let's listen to this podcast together. But it's, if you're in there trying to change them to be different so that you can be happy, then you're as much in the fear triangle as they are.

Yeah.

Which, by the way, is the other thing that you can do around passive aggression is really look at the fear and sit in the fear that's underneath the aggression. That if it's not always there, but often there's some fear.

And so that's, that's one end of the spectrum is the, like, you're being passive aggressive, make it active. Another end of the spectrum might just be like, hey, I notice like what's, what it appears to me is passive aggression. And actually, um, I'm here for it. I welcome, I welcome your anger. Like, I'm curious, any, any tips or guidance if, if that's the way you're feeling in, in a situation?

Yeah, I think if you're feeling that way, that, that's great. As long as you can not feel obligated to do that and be able to say stop when you need it to stop. But yeah, if you're like, I'm feeling what's happening right now as passive aggression, and I just want you to know I'm totally happy to hear what you want. I'm happy to hear your anger. I'm happy to hear the boundary that you might have. It sounds fantastic.

Awesome.

Yeah.

And, uh, I'd love to leave listeners with an experiment until they hear our next episode. What's, what's an experiment somebody could bring into their life? To either notice or bring— just bring this more into awareness in the world.

Yeah, write down a list of all the people that you subtly blame and for what. So just like, go, okay, here's a list of all the people I subtly blame and for what. And then when you've made that list, find out how you're being aggressive to them. Like, right, here's the ways that I'm being aggressive. And so it can either be passive or direct, or both, or it could be many. But just like notice that wherever there's that blame, there's some form of aggression that's happening, and write it down. And that'll really help you see it more clearly when it's happening. It'll also help you get in touch with like, oh, I'm blaming somebody. Yeah, like they're hurting me and, and, and they need to stop. Like that, you'll get to, and you'll start feeling that right away, which is really the root of that is to really be able to be in contact when you're blaming somebody else.

Awesome.

Cool.

Thank you, Joe.

Oh wait, I have one more.

I have another one.

Um, we have the upright apology episode and I think we have something on the website on apologies and, uh, under the experiments part of, of, uh, the website. But the other thing you can do is, and very powerful, is to do an upright, not a regular, but an upright apology. For all the places that you've been passive-aggressive. So I know that if you probably make 20 apologies for passive aggression, you're— the amount of passive aggression that you're going to be doing in the world will probably decrease by at least 30 or 40%.

As long as it's not a passive-aggressive apology.

Upright apology. That's right. It's like, it's like, I'm sorry that you made me get angry at you the other day. I'm sorry that you made me guilt-trip you. There's just no other way to do it.

I'm sorry I put up with your bullshit.

Oh my gosh, it just goes to prove like you can take any, any recognition and weaponize it.

Yeah, indeed.

Uh, awesome.

Yeah, thank you, Jim. What a pleasure.

Thank you, thank you.

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