The Desire To Be Seen with Tara Howley

I'm Brett Kistler, and I'm here today with Tara Howley. Tara is a coach and master facilitator and a founder of The Art of Accomplishment courses and practices.

Hi, Brett.

And this is The Art of Accomplishment podcast, where we explore living the life you want with enjoyment and ease.

Made it. Yeah.

And today we're going to talk about the desire to be seen, just something that all of us have from childhood through adulthood. And it's, it's something that drives a lot of behavior in society, both the desire to be seen and also sometimes the fear of being seen.

Yes, people want to be seen. It is a— I would almost say a biological imperative, where the first thing as babies, their vision is the length of a mama's face so they can see to mama. It is the very first thing that— one of the very early things that kick in is being able to see those close to us and to be seen and to track safety through seeing and being seen. It's how we know we're safe in our community at all stages of life. If we're seen and a wildfire comes, we know that the community will grab us and take us. I think this is as old as, as humanity. And we villainize it for a number of reasons. So this basic instinct, wanting to be seen, usually we start telling children very young, like, "Oh, that's bad. You know, tone it down. Don't brag. Don't get excited. Don't ask for my attention." And we kind of clamp it down and then villainize it in ourselves and others over and over and over again throughout the rest of our lives.

So what makes this something important to explore in our own self-development and self-exploration?

That's a great question. I think that when we can truly see ourselves and truly allow ourselves to be seen and see others is one of the basic ways we grow and flourish. If we are holding up a false identity and can't see all of our goodness and all of our imperfection, then we're growing from that false identity, or we're growing from lack. Whereas if we can really see ourselves, our wholeness, our perfection, our goodness, our imperfection, then that's a natural instigator of growth. And without that, we're trying to fix ourselves. We're not just inherently growing. And we're also not truly seeing people around us. So we're not really seeing their goodness. We're not seeing the goodness all around us and the imperfection all around us.

Yeah. So what I'm hearing there is that there's this deep freedom and connection that's available when we are seeing And what we just opened up the topic with is the desire to be seen. And so I'm curious, how does our desire to be seen relate to our capacity to see?

I see it as bidirectional, that we often, when we cannot see ourselves, we will over-index on wanting to be seen, on longing to be seen, because that biological need is there. So we're over-indexing, trying to get it from out there as opposed to being with it and wanting it, but not from longing? Well, not from lack.

Ah.

There's a way when we're acting from lack, it's the Golden Algorithm, when we're acting from lack, all we see is not enoughness. So if that basic need to be seen wasn't met when we were little, wasn't met when we were teenagers, wasn't met in our young adulthood, isn't met in our adulthood, then there's this hungry ghost always trying to be seen. And in doing so, it actually tends to annoy people, make sure that we're not seen, make sure that we don't see the ways we are being seen, um, obfuscate who we truly are so we even can't be seen.

You said, like, "make sure we're not seen" as though that's a strategy. And, um, I'm curious when to look at the other side of the equation that we were just talking about, how we want to be seen but also sometimes we push away the being seen. And it sounds like you were alluding to that right there, and that the, the way that we come to it from lack can create an environment where we're actually pushing it away. Can you speak a little bit more about that?

Yes, I, I think most of us, it's a push-pull, right? See me, see me! Oh my gosh, don't see me! And I think underneath it often is a lot of shame. "See me, see me, but wait, don't see me, 'cause if you see me, you're gonna see my badness or my wrongness or all the ways I'm fucked up." So that shame, we were, when we said, "See me, see me, see me," as kids, we were often shamed to stifle that emotion. Like, "Oh, come on. Don't, don't ask for so much. Tamp it down." Don't brag. It was pushed down. So there's a shame reaction. So we have that shame, inherent shame, and then see me, see me, that need is still there, but don't see me, don't see me because we have the shame and we think that we are shameful. And if people actually see us, they're not gonna like what they see or will further shame us. Shame plays a large role there for many of us.

Yeah, it's interesting, sort of the etymology of the word shame is kind of hide, There's some— there's something about like, this isn't to be seen in it. So what I'm hearing there is that the shame impacts the way that we see ourselves, what we're allowed to see. We're taught through whatever external reactions to being seen as kids that certain parts of us are like bad or wrong or otherwise need to be hidden in shame. And how does that impact our capacity to really see ourselves clearly and really see see the motivations behind the desire to be seen, or the motivations behind any, any part of ourselves that others might see.

Yeah, I, I think after we've gotten shamed, we start developing like a false front. Like, oh, here, I'm gonna show you all the parts that are socially acceptable. And we create this false front. Like, I'm happy, I'm always happy, right? You see the kids who are just always allowed only to be happy. Like, I'm happy. Like frozen. Or I'm smart and pensive. And so we develop this false front based on what was allowed, what was allowed to be seen, what was socially acceptable or culturally acceptable or acceptable in our families. And that false front is what we present. So then if we're truly seen, people are gonna see beyond, but it risks being seen beyond the false front. And I think that's what is terrifying.

Yeah. So when you've built up a life where you're seen for a false front, you experience not really being seen, but also then there's something very risky about actually the who you— what you are behind that false front being seen. So then you're in a bit of a double bind, it sounds like.

That's exactly right. And it's an external double bind and an internal double bind, right? We often don't even allow ourselves to see those parts, so they're like pushed into our shadow. All of our parts that are so-called selfish or needy or needing attention, right? All of that gets pushed back there and we don't even see it.

Yeah. So I would love to even kind of drill down on a little bit closer on our definition of like, what is it to be seen? What does that mean? What does that do for us?

It's a great question.

Why is that such a primal human need?

I always go back to how we developed as humans, and we developed in groups, hunter-gatherers in the early days. And so I think we had to be seen by the— that group, that tribe, if you will, that community, to stay safe. So we actually had to be seen to stay safe. So there's safety, right? If a wildfire comes through, if we were seen, we were grabbed and we were taken. We moved with the group wherever they moved next. Also, if we were seen, we were developed. It is through really being seen that we grow. When elders, teachers, really see us, they are supporting our development and our skills through sight, through being seen. So I think it is a basic need for safety, for survival, but also to develop our skill set and to develop into whole people.

And so how does that need develop or change over the course of life? Imagine a small child absolutely needs— couldn't survive without the support and mentorship and, you know, teachings of the, of the tribe, of the family. And then how does that develop over the course of a life?

I can guess that it doesn't become as much survival. The survival instinct isn't based on it as much as we get older, but I do think that the thrive instinct isn't— I don't know if thrive instinct is the right word. What would be the— that living isn't based on it, but thriving is based on it. That when we're really seen, we can flourish as we get older. And I think this applies to, I see it in companies, often the CEO is very independent and used to being self, uh, you know, takes care of everything on their own, doesn't need anybody else. So they don't know how to truly see, aren't used to being seen themselves, and then as a result, aren't great at acknowledging others. So they have a bunch of direct reports who are a little hungry for acknowledgement and never getting totally acknowledged. Whereas acknowledgement drives performance for most people. And so if you're getting acknowledged at work, if your CEO can acknowledge you, then you— most people tend to thrive. It also is, it's a way to put up the guardrails through acknowledgement and seeing like, hey, well done, creates connection and increases performance. So I think it is needed throughout all of life. Not in the same survival, but in a, in a thrival way.

Thrival.

Thrival.

Right?

That we thrive on being seen. We thrive on connection.

Yeah. And what you were just describing there with the, you know, the CEO and the company, it sounds like the acknowledgement and the seeing and being seen is a lot of the kind of social fabric in an organization or in a community that supports the thriving. And what you were just saying with a CEO, if they're not acknowledging or if they're not able to see the way that they're supported in their team, then it probably leads to that team trying to seek their acknowledgement more in ways that end up making the CEO feel more alone and unseen themselves. Then you end up in this It seems like a really common dynamic in any conflict is two people want to be seen by the other and then react in ways that cause the other to feel less seen and so on.

Absolutely. I would say under most fights, most boardroom fights, most couples fights, is this: I just want to be seen and heard.

Yeah.

And you're not seeing me, you're not hearing me. On both sides. It takes two sides, right? And that's— but that basic need is there and is creating the conflict. Yeah.

Yeah. So, so what would you, what would you say to somebody who's in such a conflict and they're desperately wanting to be seen, they feel very unseen, and the more they've wanted to get seen, the harder it's been and the worse the conflict has become? Like, what's the, what's the way out of that Chinese finger trap?

It's counterintuitive, but it is to see and to hear. This is where view comes in really handy. Asking questions, getting curious about the other person, actually truly seeing, looking, seeking to see and understand is the, the hack.

How does you seeing someone else affect your feeling or sense of being seen? What's the interaction there?

There's a couple of things that happen. One, to really see someone else, it requires coming and settling into the senses. And when you— the senses, you know, that vision and sound. So you're settling into your own body, and in settling into your own body, your nervous system starts settling. So that fight tendency, that fight urge calms. The parts of the brain that want to fight calm down. Parts of the brain that can see and think clearly come back online. So you can actually, in using the senses, you can actually come back into your body. And into relation with yourself and then with someone else. So that would be one way that it really helps. The other way is that when you start asking your partner or direct report or someone else questions, then it takes them out of the fight-flight survival instinct and brings them down into their system to answer a question from view, ideally from view, not questions like, why are you being such an asshole? That usually doesn't help, but like, oh, what makes it happen that we're fighting like this? What's going on? Like, what's this? What's this like for you? Sucks. What's it like for you?

Yeah. And what does, if you know, when you, so I heard you just describe it gets you into your senses. You were in, you're in view. Now it also has you relate to the other person with more curiosity. So they're more, they're feeling more open. So then you're collecting more data. What does that additional data when you, when you see them more deeply, What does that tend to do to your own story or to your own insecurity or fears?

I would say two things. One is it pulls you out of a corner, right? Anytime we're fighting, we're in a corner. There's a little bit of a trapped sense so that when we start asking questions and hearing information, we're actually stepping out of the corner, we're stepping out of the trap. And the mental trap of this is what's happening when we hear someone else's story, And we listen, we don't even have to believe it. We don't have to buy into it, but when we just hear it and honor it as their perspective, then it starts opening the trap in our mind too, right? So our own identity, when we're really seeing someone else, I do believe parts of our own identity drop away, parts of that reified identity drop away.

Yeah. So now I'm curious, What makes that not the natural process? I mean, it might be a natural process, but it's also something that's not happening all the time. You know, what, what would prevent somebody from dropping in and feeling their sensations and being like dropping into their body, into themselves when they're feeling unseen? What, what kind of emotions or avoided experience might be waiting for them that, that blocks that?

Right. Well, I would say One thing, one reason we don't do it is it wasn't modeled for us. Very few of us had a model of when being unseen to actually get curious and drop into our senses and like, hey, what's going on? So none of us have modeling. Most of us don't have modeling for that. I didn't have modeling for that. Most of the people I see didn't have modeling for that. So that's one. What makes it not the case that we do that is when we're emotionally triggered by something, And often it's an old trauma, "I'm not being seen," right? Usually it's a very young part of us that's getting re-triggered there, a baby or a grade schooler or a teenager. It's a very young part getting triggered. So there's like a trauma online. And so there's, um, biologically we go to the fight-flight nervous system, right? We're in that FFF, you know, all those F's responses. And the counterintuitive thing would be to drop— like, it's totally counterintuitive to drop that and come into our senses.

Like, oh yeah, it's interesting. So if you're— if you find yourself in a situation, if I find myself in a situation where I feel like I'm unseen and I'm triggered and it's difficult for me to go into my body, into my sensations, and just really be with that, and so I'm in the cycling dynamic of trying to control my my reality and control someone's perception or their story, then how do I even know that it's actually them that I want to see me and it's not just an older response? Like, how would somebody explore this? What is it that wants to be seen, and by whom is it expected to be seen by?

I don't think it matters if it's an old person that, you know, if it's an old wound wanting to be seen or the current. The current situation is where there's the potential for healing. And the key is, the first key is to recognize it. Like, oh, I just wanna be seen here. And I love the phrase, of course, cuz there's something in my nervous system and most people I work with, the minute it's like, of course I just wanna be seen here, that it just like makes it not a problem. And the fight stops, the internal fight stops, and there's like just this softening of, oh, of course I just wanna be seen here, and hanging out with that. And in doing so, that usually is the beginning of when you say, of course, to yourself, you're starting to see yourself, right? That's honoring a part of yourself. And so that would be the first step, like, oh, just acknowledging, of course I want to be seen here.

Yeah. Interesting. What that's bringing up for me now is that in this process of wanting to be seen and then checking in with our, with our body, with our sensations, getting into view, there's a way that that is actually a process of seeing ourselves, which I think actually makes it easier for others to see us because then we're more introspectively aware of what we might share about our experience. And we can share from a deeper place, but also we're seeing that deeper place. So we might be seeing beneath the surface layer insecurity or fear into the deeper care or the deeper longing.

Absolutely. Yeah, beautifully said.

So how would somebody who's listening to this podcast and they're like, "Oh, this is interesting. I'm not sure where in my life this is applicable." How would somebody look through their life and just notice where, like, what are some of the signs or symptoms of an unowned or unseen desire to be seen that's kind of in the background running things?

Mm-hmm. The first thing that comes to mind is bragging. Anytime we're like, "Well, did you know that the other day I was—" Usually under that there's this wanting to be seen. And it, so it comes out all sideways as bragging or perceived as bragging when what it really is is just like, I wanna be seen. So I would say, oh, for anyone who feels self-conscious around bragging or sharing stories, that right there is information about something wanting to be seen. And what is it that wants to be seen? Is it creativity, intelligence, action, success? So that would be one place. Another place is anytime if someone else is bragging and you judge it, "Oh, they're just full of hot air," then that's a great pointer to a part of yourself that's not allowed to be seen. Anywhere where you judge anybody else for Wanting to be seen or being seen or taking up space or taking up too much space is a great pointer to a part of yourself that's not allowed to be seen, or you're not allowing yourself to see. Those would be two things. There's—

Yeah, envy is a great pointer to what we won't allow ourselves to have or to want.

I love envy. Envy rocks, right? Because it is, it's that pointer to parts of ourselves we've disallowed. Yep. So envy, what would be an awesome one? Daydreams. Some people can't do it in their lives, but they'll go to very exquisite daydreams, and that can point to parts of selves that want to be seen, like your strengths and skills and capacity.

Yeah, that's a really good one. That just brought up a whole bunch of like memories of like recurring daydreams throughout my life of like having some big success or like save the day moment, or like hitting the home run on the baseball field at the right moment and the crowd goes wild. Yeah.

I love daydreams for that reason. I mean, they really represent parts of ourselves that, um, are, are begging us to kind of hug and hold and give a little seeing to. There was one other one that was somewhere back here. Give me one second. It would be compliments pushed away.

Ah, yeah, that's a nice double bind.

Yeah. So anytime someone gives you a compliment and you discredit it in your mind or guard, guard the heart, the chest, or clench the gut, those are parts of yourself that are longing to be seen, but you're not allowing yourself to see or allowing anyone else to see.

Yeah, I want to double-click on that a little bit. On the fear of truly being seen. What is typically the fear? When people fear being seen for what they are, seen for who they are, and maybe there's some shame around it and shame around what they think will be seen by others, ultimately what's the fear there? What would make it that if someone's giving us a heartfelt compliment, that we'd push it away rather than receive it?

Uh, two things come to mind. The first one is the "I'm bad," right? If we're given a compliment and they're saying, "Oh, this is awesome," but we actually think we're bad, then it's triggering a badness. Or if we're actually being seen, there's that fear of they're gonna see that something about me is flawed. So it's that shame piece that you named. But I also think that there is a empowered piece that very often we don't allow ourselves to see or other people to see, right? Our empowerment, our wholeness, our goodness. We can't see our own goodness, therefore we can't let someone else see our goodness, our power. So I think it's two sides of the same coin in a way, that they see I'm bad or that see I'm good. Neither acceptable. There's another reason we won't receive a compliment because, ugh, Pride, you know, pride is one of the Seven Deadly Sins. And it's like most of us assume if we take on the compliment that we will become arrogant and prideful and narcissistic. It'll go to our head. So we can't really let it in because we can't hold our wholeness, right? We can't hold that we're good and bad. We're flawed and perfect. We're human and everything, right? We're all of it. And so when we can't hold both realities and we've been told that pride is a deadly sin, then if we let a compliment in, it can be like, oh no, can't be that. So it gets pushed out.

Yeah, that's interesting because like when, when somebody, you know, the phrase don't let it go to your head is, seems like analogous to don't let this go to your false image. Of yourself. And so it's, it's almost as though, like, the fear is if I actually let in this compliment, it will go to my false image because there's no way I will actually let myself see it deeply in myself.

That's exactly right. And I think that is the earliest way that parents stop seeing kids. Kids come home and they're like, look what I did! And often you'll hear the reaction, oh, don't let it get to your head, right? Which is the parent not seeing accomplishment or the work that it took to do or the joy and the excitement. So right there, it's like, nope, you're not going to be seen and don't let it. So I think don't let it get to your head and don't be seen are like synonymous with each other. Sadly. Yeah.

As a parent, what emotion would be avoided in your case if you were reacting that way to one of your daughters?

I would say several different emotions. If I'm not allowed my own excitement and a kid comes to me, so look what I did! I'm gonna be like, "Tamp it down, kid," right? Excitement isn't allowed. Or pride, right? Isn't allowed. Or joy isn't allowed. Or a sense of accomplishment. Like, "Oh, don't, don't have that sense of accomplishment 'cause you keep gotta, gotta work harder." So any, it could be any number of those things aren't allowed in my system. And it'd probably be different for each parent. I was at a, I'll never forget, my kids were at one of those jumpy houses. And they were jumping with friends and other kids and they're going bonkers and it's totally safe. It's set up and designed by insurance companies, right? Like nothing really— I mean, maybe one in a million times things can go wrong, but it's really overdesigned for protection. And I remember another father being like, "Don't get too wild in there." And it was like, all right, because his wildness wasn't allowed, so he couldn't allow his kids' wildness. So whatever piece, different for each of us, joy, excitement, Pride, accomplishment, success.

Yeah, that's fascinating. I'm now thinking of this perhaps polarity or dichotomy or dilemma, double bind between being seen as being seen in a certain way and allowing our wildness. Yes.

Yeah. And the minute we start needing to be seen in a certain way to be safe in our families, which happens to all of us, it is a tamping down. Of our wildness. And it is a tamping down of our musculature and our authenticity and who we really are and our wildness. And I do love our wildness. And it's why I love when we do emotional work, because I do believe that anger work and grief brings us back to our wildness. It brings us back in touch with that. Yeah.

What does it tend to look like when you're working with a client and they're working on something related to being seen, maybe it's one of many things they're working on at a time, but this is something that starts to move in them and the wildness starts being seen and welcomed and coming through. What are some of the first— what does that journey look like?

I would say it's different. I never think one case fits all. It usually involves getting some ground, some safety, feeling their bodies, And then compassion. Compassion is a big piece in it. If we can be with our hearts and be gentle with ourselves, then we can actually start to see our whole selves. We really need to have compassion to see our, our, um, beyond our false self, beyond that mask. We need to have a lot of compassion. So having it often entails a lot of compassion for self. And then compassion for other, right? And that tends to be bidirectional. So the more we can have compassion for other people's imperfections and failures, then we can have compassion for our own. And then we can see ourselves more and more and see them more and more. And I do see compassion being a huge part of the journey to seeing ourselves and allowing ourselves to be seen. 'Cause the more compassion we have on board, then we're not afraid of our shadow and our imperfections, our selfishness and our greed and our loneliness and our anger and our rage. We're not afraid of all of those parts, so we can see them and then we can allow other people to see them.

And so what is a common emotional journey when someone starts to let go of, or they've worked through or seen behind the desire to be seen in this false self-image, what are some of the emotional patterns that they'll start to bump up against and learn to welcome to deepen into that journey?

One of the first things I see people bump into is having to grieve all that they ignored, all the ideas they had, all the parts of themselves that they had to kind of stamp down in order to maintain a false front. So there's a grieving part, and hand in hand with that, usually anger and fear. So there's a huge emotional, emotional experience that happens. Trying to think of the other parts of themselves that they bump into. And then you start bumping into the imperfect part, the shadow, truly, right? The, um, in some places, well, the parts of the self that weren't allowed, the parts of the selves that are petty or not smart or not compassionate. If you always had to be smart in your family, and that's the, the kind of the front you hold up, then you have to bump into the parts of yourselves that aren't smart or are slower or not understanding, all the other parts in the shadow, or the parts that are, um, all the— it's the disallowed parts, really. We have to see them to to see ourselves, to see our loneliness and our grief and our hurt and our rage and our— all those, like, selfishness, all those parts that were not acceptable.

If I look back through my life, instances where somebody really wanted to be seen, or I really wanted to be seen, like, all of those are the parts that really wanted to be seen. And it might have been like, "Oh, I want to be seen for doing the dishes," but it's on some really deep level, it's what you just described that is actually, actually wanting to be seen. And a conflict will just continue. You can see me for doing the dishes 5 or 6 times and it won't necessarily change the pattern unless like those deeper things become— unless the wildness is welcome. Yeah.

The wildness. I love that phrasing.

Yeah. So for, for somebody listening right now, what is something that they could do today if, if they were to identify somewhere in their life or in their, in a relationship, they're like, oh, I'm in this kind of tension, or there's, there's a dynamic where I noticed that I've really been wanting to be seen. What's something that they could do, an experiment they could run, some tool, something they could try that could change that dynamic for them?

Mm-hmm. I, I'd say two offhand. One is see yourself, right? Like, "Oh, I see how hard I'm working," or "I see how much I want it," and just have a little practice of, "Oh, these are all the things I see about me," so that you're practicing that internal gaze of seeing self. And then the bidirectional, doing it externally as well. See your partner, see your community, share things you're seeing. With them, see your direct reports and acknowledge what you see. Like, "Oh, I see how hard you work to get the dishes done," or "I see how hard you're working to get XYZ. I see that you hit all those goals way beyond their due dates. That's awesome." Like, really seeing, acknowledging.

Yeah, I love how that— there's a kind of twist on the gratitude practice there. And this is, this is a kind of gratitude practice that you can just do yourself internally and with someone else, but it doesn't have to be a partner. It can just be something you do in your life.

Absolutely. It does not require anybody else. Yeah. Just you. Yeah. Which is great because you can do it anywhere, anytime and go to sleep like, oh, I see how hard I worked to hit my XYZ today. I see how much time I gave it to my kids. 'Oh, I see how much joy I had with my garden.' I love how that's like a flip from the state of desire.

Like, I know that I want to be seen, and therefore this, this tool, this experiment you provided, is to actually do the seeing. Like, be the seeing you want to be in the world, or something like that.

There's a reason that phrase is, is so widely used and such a hit, right? 'Cause all, all of those things, if we want more love in our lives, I want more love in my life, the more love we share with our community, it's, it's that mirror effect. It comes back to us and we're practicing the muscle. So when it does come back to us, we can receive it. 'Cause oftentimes we wanna be seen and we can't see all the ways we are being seen. You know, it might be that our partner is telling us things all the time, but we're like blocking it or literally not hearing it or not translating it as being seen. So the more we do it, the more we work that muscle and make ourselves available to actually being seen as well.

And I really like the way that you included the seeing of yourself in that as well, because I could imagine there's a lot of people who'd be listening to this and be like, oh yeah, I can see. I'm an understanding person. I can see what's going on in these other people that I'm having conflict with. I'm understanding. But if they're not giving themselves that seeing, if they're not seeing themselves, then there's still something in that Hungry Ghost that's missing.

That's right. That's right. Yeah. Seeing themselves and letting them have that inner felt sense of being seen, right? Letting your own body feel it. Ah. I see how everything that comes with that and everything that comes with that. That's right.

That fear and the grief. Yeah.

Letting it hit the body, hit the heart, and let that ricochet around like a pinball machine.

Well, this has been lovely.

Thank you, Tara. Hey, Brett. Always a joy.

Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please share it with a friend and remember to follow us and rate us in your podcast app. The Art of Accomplishment was produced and hosted by myself, Brett Kistler, and Joe Hudson. Monyi Kelly is our production coordinator, and this episode was edited by On Replay.