Triggered! — Relationships Series #2

Welcome to The Art of Accomplishment, where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease. The wonderful thing about triggers is triggers are wonderful things. Their tops are made out of anger, their bottoms are made out of shame. The topsy topsy topsy topsy fun fun fun fun fun. The most wonderful thing about triggers is you're the triggered one.

Oh yeah, that's definitely a great start to this podcast. I'm just imagining somebody out out there right now all like, what the— triggered by your song.

That would just be the best.

It's not wonderful that I'm triggered, what are you talking about?

Okay, now that we've got you all triggered, we have your attention.

Welcome to today's episode.

Awesome. Okay, so what, what questions? What are the questions? Where are we going?

I mean, I guess we could start with just how do we talk about what a trigger is, what it means to be triggered.

I thought we were going to start with like you just trying to trigger each other. That would have been just hilarious in my world if you were like, where do we start? You never do the dishes.

You tell me where to start. This isn't my job.

Alexa, will you just go ahead and take care of the starting the podcast thing for us?

Thanks. It actually does hurt.

Oh wow. Okay. So if we didn't trigger them with the song, we're triggering them with not starting this podcast quick enough. This is wonderful. So what is a trigger? That word is used pretty fluidly these days. And I think it's even become politicized where people are I don't like— like, if someone says, 'I'm triggered,' you know, there's a way that some people feel like, 'Oh God, shut up, don't tell me that you're triggered.' And other people feel like that it's them trying to protect themselves. So I want to, like, let go of all of those definitions of being triggered and just say triggered is when— I would say trigger is when you're in your trauma rather than in yourself. And so one of the things about trauma, the way that it works, whether it's the kind of trauma that's like an acute car accident or war episode, or if it's something that's like long-term over time, such as always, you know, being rejected by your parents when you were scared or when you were angry. Um, the thing about trauma is that you're not in the moment anymore. You're living in the past. You're living in the moment that the trauma happened. So with acute PTSD You know, somebody's in Ohio and a car backfires and they think they're in Kabul. And in relationships, you're like transported back into, you know, some of your primary relationships where you weren't seen or you weren't connected in the same way, you know, over and over and over again. So that's one way to define trigger. I think the other way to define it that's really important is that It's when in your body you have a really big emotional reaction that is not particularly warranted given the situation. And warranted is a— I very much hesitate to use the word because then people say, well, you shouldn't have had that, or that doesn't make sense, or that's not warranted as a way to excuse and dismiss the other person. And I really don't want the word to be used in that way.. It just means that you know that on some level your mind knows that your reaction doesn't meet the experience that you just had, that the reaction is being created— this big emotional reaction is being created because of the past, not because of what's actually happening in real time. So I think those are the two things. And the second is so important to define it that way because it's how we know when it's happening. We have this big physical reaction that on some level, some part of us knows it isn't, it isn't what's called for in the moment. It's not how we want to be, and it's not— and on, on some level, we know that it's, it's not about the current situation.

So I'm curious to get a little bit more into there then. What makes that attractive? What makes it that the person who hits our triggers so that we've— so that our body has a visceral reaction that's completely unrelated, or very unrelated, to the present moment and very much related to our past and our history. What, what makes that the, the recipe for amor?

Yeah, it's because we— it's what we know love to be, right? Like, so we're born and we are like ducklings. We, you know, we're entrained to follow mama duck, like We are born with inherent connection to our parents and it doesn't matter, or whoever is taking care of us, and it doesn't matter who they are or what they do. We want connection with them. We're going to think about them on some level for our entire lives. We're going to have that level of connection. We want their attention no matter what. We want their approval no matter what. Like, we are hardwired to want that. Connection. And so that's our primary experience of love. And so we have this connection, and then whatever they do becomes wired with love. You know, things that fire together wire together. And, and so if they were shamed, if they shamed us, and we're going to go find a partner who likely either shames us or, you know, completely, you know, reacts the other way, or we'll shame them. But somehow that shame is going to be in that relationship. And so it's just what we know love to be. It's what we know connection be. And so it's, it's our nature to go towards that and towards the things that we know.

Well, gosh, that makes it sound like we're just doomed to repeat ourselves.

Yeah, I think that most people are. Um, most people do repeat patterns for generations and generations, and, or they, you know, slowly change those patterns. And so I think that is the natural course unless you bring a lot of conscious awareness to it and really think about it and feel through it and deal and do the work. I, I definitely saw— I see like some healing that happens. Like, I saw my grandparents and my parents, I saw my wife's grandparents and parents, and you can definitely see it, that cycle happen. In fact, you see this with alcoholism, like probably one of the most clear places is where you'll see somebody with like kind of have an alcoholic parent and they become very, um, rigid and controlling and that, you know, have a very clear Al-Anon thing. And then they give rise to the next generation of alcoholic, and then they give rise to the next generation of Al-Anon. I can look back at family histories and I see that all the time, that kind of repeating pattern. And so unless we're really saying, hey, we're going to consciously work on this and try to change it the, the healing process can take generations. I mean, I know, I know people who, who were raised by Vietnam vets, and like, and if the Vietnam vets didn't do the work, um, and, and granted, there wasn't a tremendous amount of options for them when they came back, when, when they— if they didn't— weren't lucky enough to find the work and do it you know, their kids still have responses of, you know, the rage that the Vietnam vet had, if that was a particular predilection, and they— or the disconnection that they had because of Vietnam that, you know, needed to disconnect from themselves to deal with the PTSD. Yeah, and, and their grandkids are going to have it. That's how it works unless we do something.

Yeah, yeah. It strikes me that these, these are really good examples, but they're also sort of like capital T trauma examples. I wonder if there are a few examples of things that are, that are more common that come up in romantic relationships a lot that don't necessarily— they're not necessarily because of a war experience of the parent.

Yeah, not being seen, um, not getting the attention that we want. Having love, uh, linked to criticism, linked to shame, having to prove our lovability, walking on eggshells around certain emotional responses, uh, you know, avoiding anger, uh, getting angry, passive aggression, being punished or reinforced for different behaviors that the parents did or didn't want. Yeah, being valuable because of your productivity, because of the amount of money you make, the amount of money you can give, feeling cared for over by money instead of by affection, shame around sex, and yeah, endless. Mhm.

Yeah, yeah. I imagine a lot of, a lot of people listening to this might be like, well, wait, I'm, I'm in a relationship and we're never triggered. It's just great.

Yeah, like you and me, Brett. We're never triggered.

Yeah, never ever. You know, it's funny. I was sitting at a restaurant. Tara and I just finished a week-long, and I was at a restaurant. We were recovering, and we were at a beach in Southern California, and there was this couple, and they were sitting there, and, and they had a friend with them. So it was two women and this man. And the woman was— I don't know how to explain it— she was so domineering, um, and she was domineering her friend, and she was dominating her— the partner. And the partner was like this big, like, Marine guy. Like, we were in a military town, and, and she'd be like 'What do you want to eat?' And then she'd say, 'I think you should eat this, this, and this.' And he'd be like, 'Yeah, you know, I think I'm gonna have this.' She's like, 'No, no, no, no, you should eat this, this, and this.' It was like literally like that. And he never had an emotional response, so he could easily have said like, 'Oh, I was never triggered by this.' But you could see that he was like, I would almost say violently shut down. Like, he hardly spoke. He, he was like the facial expression was repressed rage. And he like, like literally most of his responses were like the most minute nods. Like yes was like half an inch up. Like that was like, it was like all that contained and repressed. And so triggered doesn't mean that you get angry. Trigger might be that you're like, oh, I'm just repressing that thing. Or it could be passive aggression, or it could be like extreme sadness or a lot of fear or anxiety. Trigger can be any emotional response.

It could be a subtle freeze.

Yeah, exactly. So that was so cool to watch this. It was amazing.

What was cool about it?

Just what, what, what, what fascinated me was there— she had been probably acting this way for 35, 36, 37 years and was just absolutely unaware of it. Like she was out, like not at all aware of what was happening to— that she was being that dominant and that the reaction she was getting from the folks, both, both of these two people, she just like, we're just— nope, I'm just, you know, she's just being me. She just had no idea, which is to me totally fascinating and awesome that you can exist in that way.

To me it sounds like she was also in trigger.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. She was— everybody was acting out of conditioning and not out of, not out of their present, where they wanted to be.

Yeah, I think it's really interesting how we can end up in these stable, stable dynamics because we've learned to, we've learned to cover or avoid each other's triggers in just the right way. And we do a lot of dancing around it. And something, a pattern for me, just to speak, to bring this back into the, into the personal for one of us on this, on this episode, um, a pattern that I've had for a lot of relationships in my life is that I would get into a relationship and things would be perfect for like a couple of years, and we would just remark at how little we fight. This is just amazing. And then eventually there'd be, there'd be fighting, and we'd move through that in whatever way. And I, looking back into myself, part of something for me has always been in this work is to welcome my anger and allow myself to feel it. And also the same for my partner. And so, like, Alexa and I have had times where neither of us would be expressing anger, and if one of us expressed anger, maybe one or the other one would, would either go into like a little bit of a shame or some kind of freeze-type trigger. And we just learned how not to, not to bring those triggers up. And that was very much to each of our detriment, because then each of us might feel a little bit resentful at the other one not being fully in their power, or a little bit just kind of like we weren't getting the most out of life. Everything was, everything was great from a number of objective perspectives. But, you know, just something, something wasn't quite there until until the trigger actually was allowed to rise and then brought into awareness. And then we're like, oh, this is a thing. We've been— we've had this all along. Now let's, let's go into it.

I agree with that completely. And it has been really amazing to be in this relationship with you where we are so committed to our own freedom that, that we're really excited to see each other like really delve into the depths and bring things out. Um, but I— the thing that I see most often when I'm talking to other people is, is people who, whose actions kind of stop at the point where they are trying to prevent the other one from getting triggered. Like, that's the thing I think is most common, is people who feel like that it's important for them to act a certain way or repress a certain thing about themselves because if that were to come out, it would totally trigger their partner. And that would be unacceptable, and so everything just stops there.

Yeah, yeah. I call that walking on eggshells. And the interesting thing about that is that the result of that is that you don't feel loved in your, your relationship, because what you're basically saying is, I can't bring this part— this part of myself can't be accepted here, this part of myself has consequences. And, and so on some level, you know that you're not being seen and you're not being loved. And eventually that builds resentment and that creates tension in the relationship. And whether it's just all of a sudden, wait, I was in a happy marriage and now it's just over, or whether it devolves into disdain or something like that, that's how I see that end up.

Yeah, I see that too. The thing that I think is, oh, sort of tragic is usually people don't consciously realize that they are feeling unloved. And so it just can go on for a really long time. Often they think that they're doing something so that they can maintain the loving feelings in the relationship.

Yeah, that's right, that's right. Yeah, I, I working with a couple recently where they've been married for 16 years, have kids and everything, and they, they thought their job was to make sure the other person wasn't triggered. And now they're just pissed all the time, all the time at each other. I don't even know if they're aware of it, but it's like that never got the expression in the relationship. And you just look at their faces and it's just like, wow, you guys are both pissed all the time. And then who the hell wants to stay in a relationship with someone who's pissed at you all the time, or that you're pissed at all the time? And so the marriage is having some, some issues. Obviously. And both of them, it just, it took like a couple months for them just to see that the work is say what you want, be yourself, don't worry about the consequences, don't get angry at each other. And I want to make sure that like people hearing this know that like I am not ever suggesting to start yelling at your partner as a way to get your anger out. Go get your anger out somewhere else and then be kind to each other. Um, if, if you guys want to do an experiment where you're like, hey, can I get permission to be mad at you? And somebody says yes, then that's fine. But unless you have permission from someone to be— I, I don't, I don't suggest just yelling at each other to get the anger out. And you got to get the anger out, you got to move the anger in that energy, or it just goes to disdain.

I mean, it does bring up— the answer is yes. The answer is yes if you have permission.

Yeah, yes.

If someone's willing to receive the anger and be there to love you while you process it, and not necessarily buy the story and get into the story with you, you're like, yeah, like, screw him, but just letting you move the anger and being there with it, that's actually wonderful.

Yeah, if someone's there for that, it's, it's, it's, it's actually incredibly healing to be loved in that anger, because to some degree it was that, that part was unaccepted, which is why it's this massive state in our system. So to actually have someone love and accept it, it's great. And it's also just fine to get in your car and yell, or go to the woods and yell, or wait till everybody's out of the house and get all your anger out, or write out your anger, or do whatever the hell you have to do to get it to move it. And yeah, if you've got someone who can particularly not buy into the story and feel your anger, that's fantastic.

Yeah.

So I'm curious to bring up a couple of, uh, like tools or tricks or, you know, hints that people could use if someone's in a relationship and they're like, okay, where are these triggers? There might be some obvious triggers and there might be some less obvious triggers. Maybe I notice that I get a little bit annoyed every time my partner makes a certain kind of joke and I wonder what's underneath it. You know, like if someone's trying to kind of get under the corner of the rug here and really start doing the digging, what are some ways to do that?

You know, I don't, I don't think digging is so necessary. Like, if you— if there's the obvious— well, for some people, if you have obvious triggers, work on those. And that will— what that does is you'll work on those triggers, and as those start to go away, you'll become more sensitive to the more subtle triggers, and then those are the next ones to work on. So the, the, the system has this— your, your system has this really beautiful way of of telling you what's the most important thing to work on, and then the next most important thing, and the next most important thing. And as you— as that creates more peace in your system, you become more aware of the, the wrinkles in, in the system and the triggers. Where that's not true is if you're one of those folks who— usually a strong sense of obligation comes with this— but if you're one of those people who are like, oh, it's been 3 years and I've never been triggered by my relationship, if you're in that category then you might actually need help finding triggers. And the best way to do that is notice any time that you hesitate to say anything because your partner is gonna have an emotional reaction, or your partner is too weak to handle it, or because you're trying to protect your partner, or— but any way that you're not actually— that you have a thought to say something and you don't say it, those are great places to, to find the triggers. And you can do that same mechanism. Just look for all those places you're not saying anything and say them, and then see if you're not triggered.

That's your advice? Just start by saying them?

Yeah, yeah. Say the stuff.

Ooh.

Yeah.

That's pretty edgy.

Yeah. I mean, take it slow and maybe one thing a day, and also learn how to say the things really kindly. But I think that that, "I don't want to say that because then people will," hedge what they say instead of learn how to do it in a kind way. So let's say a husband drops off their wife at the airport and hardly, like, almost rolling stop, you know, doesn't get out of the car, doesn't hug her, and she's triggered by that. Let's use that example. One way to address that directly is, what the fuck? You know, what are you doing? Like, I'm your wife, get out of the fucking car. One way to address that is, "Hey, sweetheart, I would love you to get out of the car and say goodbye to me. That'd make me feel great if you could do that leaving." Or one way is to guilt them into it, like, "If you loved me, you would." And one way is to do it all defensively, like, "Yeah, so, yeah, I mean, if you cared, you'd get out of the car." There's so many ways to ask for it. But the most important way is to ask for it and then get good at asking for it, then be kind. But whatever is required to actually ask for it directly and, and cleanly, go there.

I would love to come at this from the other direction as well, because the thing that I see most often, or at least it just has been coming up recently, uh, is people who are for whatever reason, having a hard time being with their partner's emotional states.

Yeah.

And so I think that, that another way you could approach this is to, uh, in whatever way, figure out what is— or feel into what is hard for you to be with and just somehow determine that you're going to try. So if it's really hard for you to be with your partner's pain just try showing up for it. And then from that place, it can be a little bit easier to say something that you think might sort of bring up pain for them, but then you're, you're gonna stay and be with that pain.

Yeah, I would, I would say that that is a beautiful way to work it, and the actual thing you're being with is your own pain. Absolutely. Yeah, so it's, it's their pain is evoking something in you. So maybe their pain is evoking your helplessness, or maybe their pain is evoking your pain. Um, but you're being in that— you're not being— being with them is evoking something in you. And if it isn't, then it would be easy to be in there, be with them in their pain, right? So it's learning to be with yourself in that. Yeah, yeah.

This brings up a just a common feature of triggers, that we often make the trigger about the other person And part of the path to owning that trigger and to being with it is to own it and to recognize that it's our own experience that's uncomfortable for us in that moment. That it may be the experience of being afraid to draw a boundary, like, with someone else's actions. But ultimately, the more we can bring— the more that we can have that trigger come up and have it be about us, like, "Hey honey, I'd love for you to get out of the car and give me a hug." as I get out and go to the airport.

Yeah.

You know, it's not, what are you doing? I think there's a, that's part of the path too. When, if you're starting to explore this and more triggers are coming up, part of the path out of it is that they're your triggers, they're your, it's your experience. And the more you can be with your experience, the more you'll be able to be with your partner's.

Yeah, I statements are really important in this work. I think that the thing that struck me about what Alexa just said is that, yeah, so we're talking about two different ways. One way is to see it, to say the thing that's important for you to say that you're not saying. And the other thing is to be with the emotion that you're having a hard time being with instead of avoiding it. And I would say that the one of those two things that you're most likely to do, the most productive path is the other one. So if it's appealing for you to like, oh, I'm just gonna be with their emotional state, then probably the better work for you is to do the thing, to say the thing. And if it— and if you're more likely to be like, yeah, I'll just say that thing, but to actually be with them emotionally is the hard part, then that's probably— being with them emotionally is the better work for you. And just do both. Like, there's— you don't have to choose. But I'll just— I think that that's a, a good point.

Yeah, yeah, I love that. Because I can see another pitfall that comes up commonly, I think, is once people develop some sort of internal should of, I should be there for my partner's trigger, then it can often mean that they're just going to accept whatever behavior and roll over and not fully show up with their own needs. Yeah. And have that mean that what they're doing is loving their partner.

The good news about that is they'll be triggered all the fucking time in a short period. Like, it won't take long for them to be triggered all the time. Sorry, Alexa.

No, I was just going to say I would even go so far as to say anytime you're shoulding yourself, that's also trigger.

Yeah. Mhm.

And probably you're avoiding something.

Yes. Yeah, that's true.

Yeah, it's like saying I'm a bad partner and I would be a better partner if I were different in this way.

Yeah. Yeah, you're— well, you're creating a shame cycle either way. Like, if it's a should, it's a shame cycle. There's— I think there's a healthy way to say, oh, this isn't the partner I want to be, and I want to do this. But if you're in the should, then you're in a shame spiral with it. Yeah.

Yeah. So, okay, so we've, we've covered a bunch of ground here. We've talked about, we've talked about triggers, we've talked about how they can create, you know, unseen dynamics and relationships, and how we can bring that into awareness. And then once we've once these triggers are more in our awareness, how we can be with our partners in those triggers without leaving ourselves, and how we can own and be with ourselves and our own triggers and our avoided feelings, and how to choose the path of most resistance for us and most growth among those options. And I'd like to talk a little bit about what are some more— what are some examples just from from any of our lives or from client relationships of just really well-handled triggers?

Yeah, and the, the most obvious thing is like the, that exercise that we do in the Connection Course, which is, you know, we have this at one exercise, this is where we're handling triggers, where we're learning to, to respond to triggers in a way that is productive and The most— and the first step of that is to feel into your trigger and accept this state, accept that state, you know, get into your body, allow yourself to feel that way and not try to tell yourself that you should be in a different way, but to be present with what actually is going on in your, in your physical body. And then the second piece is to ask questions that are open-ended and non-judgmental. And we've seen people do that in— I've seen people when I used to do that course live, I saw people say, oh my gosh, like, we just resolved without a conversation. We just resolved multiple issues just by asking questions, just without even the response to the questions. So that would be something like, uh, as an example of that would be something like, uh, oh, I have a great example of this. I was working in a company and we were doing this exercise and it was one of the people who worked at the company was ex-CIA, ex-Navy SEAL, big dude, strong, powerful, willful human being. I really, really, really dug this guy. And then there was a programmer who was like an AI programmer who was like 5'3" and very conflict avoidant and total sweetheart. And his job was to try to trigger the Navy SEAL so the Navy SEAL could practice, you know, the response. And, and he couldn't think of anything, or he didn't want to have the conflict or whatever. And, and so they called me over because I'm, as you both know, I'm good at triggering people. And, uh, I said to the Navy SEAL I said, um, your hard exterior makes it so that, um, you're not going to ever get the love that you want. And, and so he stopped. He felt his body, which it was interesting because I found out later that he had a whole system for being present and being in your body under stress that they use for like being in combat. And so he literally used that with, through breath or whatever, used that for, you know, whatever it was, a second or two. And then he looks over at me and he says, um, I really want to have deeper connections in my life. How can I— how do you propose that I can get there? It was just like this immediate thing, and like I got chills, and I looked over at the programmer who started weeping, and he started weeping, and it was like this amazing moment of just that one question immediately changed the trigger. It changed everything because the person who is getting asked the question feels heard They don't feel like they're being attacked. They feel like, oh wait, and the person who's asking the question has moved from, um, a fear response and an anger response into wonder. And it's really neurologically impossible, as far as I can find, to hold wonder and anger or wonder and fear at the same time. And so by putting that out there, like, totally changed the thing. So that's one technique. There are literally dozens, but that one's incredibly useful in the fact that now you can actually immediately start moving into solving the situation as far as finding ways that you want to be together that actually feel better for both of you.

I think some important signposts for that also are that, you know, you delivered this trigger— this is in the context of an exercise— and it wasn't meant for him to take on that story of I've got my walls up and I'm never going to get love and him to just believe it even more. But for it to bring up the trigger. And one thing that we've talked about in our courses is that when you feel triggered, there's actually a part of you that feels seen. There's a part of you that's, that already believes and buys it. Hence there being any defense. Yeah. And so in that story, I'm just, I'm noticing that he, he then asked questions from the place of seeing that part of himself and wanting freedom. Not buying the story and then spiraling into shame.

That's— yeah, so it's interesting because there's a subtle difference, right? If, if we get defensive, if there's somebody who says something to us and we get defensive, you know, then we're telling ourselves the same story. So on some level you are buying into it, but you're not buying into the shame. You're saying, oh yes, I also hold that story. Or it wouldn't have made me triggered. I also hold the story that I'm not doing the dishes enough if it gets triggered. Or I also hold the story that I'm supposed to do more around the house. Or I also hold the story that I'm supposed to do what my wife tells me to do, and do dishes is one of those things. So if I get defensive in any way, then I'm also holding the story, which is why dealing with triggers is so productive. Is because you get to see through your own ego, limiting beliefs, identity, through the thoughts that trigger you, that somebody else saying something triggers you. And so you get to see through those, which is amazing.

I don't assume that this will make it into the podcast, but I just want to say I was just mapping— I was just mapping that explanation to how I was thinking about it internally, and it was, it was so different, but eventually came back around to the same place, which is to say, I was thinking about this, this guy, um, from the pear activity exercise, and how the, the response that we would normally think of as the triggered response would be to defend the thing that feels a threat. So in his case, like, the thing that feels a threat is that he is gonna miss out on connection. And if he is so constricted around that unwanted outcome, that he defends it, then it stays in this stance that creates often trigger in the other person because there's this feeling of like, now we're in a fighting stance. And just the somatic thing of just like letting it all the way in, just like, that could be. And then what? What could I do? To change that is itself so different, so unexpected, that the other person's nervous system just opens in response.

Yeah.

And that's the crying that you saw. It's just, wow, like, we're both just here. And I really love that it's this, this intention to just go there, just let it be. That seems so powerful. And that's, that's what I love about this work.

There's something else I want to say about this, which is, so in, in the Crazy Wisdom, um, Tibetan Buddhist tradition, there's like 3 steps to it. And, um, if that— like, there's 3 steps where the teacher— 3 ways in which the teacher in order helps a student, you know. And the first one is they become friends, like they create a deep sense of connection. And then the second one is they trigger the fuck out of the person as much as possible until the person can't be triggered. They literally just say things to like to needle them. That's their job, is to like needle the student until the student isn't needleable anymore. So it's literally like the second step is to just, oh, you're doing that wrong, you're not setting up right, you're not meditating correctly, you're 'You cook like an idiot,' like whatever, to try to trigger the ego so that they can see where their ego still exists. And then the third one is to turn every idea about spirituality upside down for them. Um, but that— but just to say, like, you could do that, or you could just get married.

Well, that second one's really interesting to me. I'm curious what's the, like, how listeners might tell the difference between this particular Zen practice of befriending somebody and holding them in love while then needling them until all their triggers are, you know, surfaced and evaporated, the difference between that and somebody just criticizing somebody and saying, "It's 'cause I love you." Because it's in, it's actually in love.

I think that's the difference, and I think that's the reason that some marriages are counterproductive, is because it's a lot easier to learn that lesson, one, if there's an agreement like, oh, this is— I'm here to learn this lesson. But also, which is why I think it's so important to have that agreement in a marriage, but also if it's done in love, right? If it's— if in this particular case the teacher isn't triggered back, right? But in marriage, the teacher our teacher, our husband, wife is actually triggered back often, right? So it's not like, oh, you're a horrible meditator. It's, you're a horrible meditator. And if you meditated better, then we'd have more friends at the country club. And if we have more friends at the country club, then I would be happier. And then I could like get a better job and blah, blah, blah. So why don't you just meditate better? So, you know, it's like, there's all that, you know, craziness. So we, we, we— there's a kind of also the separation that the teacher— the student doesn't particularly buy into the belief that if the teacher is happier, then they could be happier. They buy into the belief that the teacher is probably happier than they are. And so, and so, you know, think, you know, have it— have a different thing to overcome there. But yeah, whereas in a marriage, you're like, oh my God, my wife was just happy, then I could be happy. Is a common, common misperception.

Yeah, it's an interesting flip. And I can also imagine there's a lot of relationships where one person takes on the role of the teacher and the other one takes on the role of the student in that way. And that's, that's great for a student-teacher relationship. That's not great for romantic partners, business partners.

It's great if you want to stop having sex and get in a lot of fights. I guess it all determines what your goal is. Yeah, yeah. I love what you said, Alexa, about, um, the dropping of defense. I think that's really the, the, the core of all of this work, is like, how do I love myself as I am? How do I love other people unconditionally?

Right. Yeah. Even the thing that you were just saying about loving your partner more. Like, to me, I was expecting you to say it's about loving yourself more, because to me, that's, that's where it all comes back to. And even that defense of that guy, you know, he was, he was building, like, shoring up something, defending the part of himself that he felt like was not lovable. But if you just let everything be, including all of you, everything that you're worried isn't lovable about yourself, then you are making room for all of this to be loved and for you to express love to your partner better and so on. It's like the, the directionality. I think people get stuck trying to love their partner better by doing various things that are actually can be really self-denying or in, in your language, I think like abandoning themselves. Um, yeah, and that coming back to yourself with full acceptance is actually a way to love your partner better.

Yeah, your, your capacity to love your partner is completely based on your capacity to love yourself. The idea of sacrifice, compromise, um, like, I don't find that that actually helps people love better. I think until you see that it's your capacity to love is, is your freedom, and that's what you want, you know. But if it's like, I'm sacrificing myself for so-and-so, then you're creating like a victim relationship or a savior relationship, and it always gets muddled. It always gets really, um, what's the word, uh, it gets really defended and obligated and resentful.

Yeah.

So on triggering people, we've done one thing where you talked about I statements, which I think is really important. And I think it can't just be I statements, but It's where you're owning your own wants and your own experience instead of telling somebody else what their experience is. And then the other one is asking questions, were two of the things. Another really great way to do it is to just make sure the person feels heard. So if somebody's like, any trigger, you know, "Wait, you're always asking me to fill the car up with gas," or, You're treating me like your mom again. I'm not your mom. Um, then, then there's just, oh, I, I— what I'm hearing you say is that, you know, I'm treating you like my mom again. And, and I just want you to know, I, I hear that that's your experience of the, of the situation. Like, just that can be calming for people to just feel heard in their experience. And usually when we're in a fully triggered state, people are talking over each other. They're not listening to one another anymore. They assume they know what's going to be said. They assume what's coming next. They're already thinking about their response. Nobody's actually focused on how do I make sure that my partners feel seen, because that's a huge part of, of, of the triggering and the fights that we get into, is people not feeling seen. And their situation. So that's another, I think, a really important part is just to allow that. And, and the other thing that Alexa said, which is how can you relax into being with somebody in an uncomfortable emotional state and draw boundaries? Sometimes emotional states are at you, and so maybe there's no reason to be with that too, right? I think some— one of the ways that Tara and I have dealt with triggers is to draw boundaries with each other, which I think is great. It's like, oh, I'm not gonna— I'm not gonna be here with you crying at me or being angry at me. Yeah, I'm happy to come back to the conversation when that's over.

Yeah, I think that points to one of the pitfalls we brought up earlier, which is that like people can get into the belief of, I should be able to be there for my partner's trigger, and so I'm going to suppress my own trigger so that their trigger can be held. Yeah, rather than drawing a boundary and taking care of myself.

Yeah, right. Self-care is absolutely the, the priority in all of this work, to take care of yourself, to love yourself, to treat yourself with love and respect. You can't, you can't treat others without that.

Yeah, which, coming back to sort of the premise of the, the beginning of this relationship series, of that, you know, to be in a relationship where we both agree that we are in it for our own freedom, I think that can come off to a lot of people as very individualistic and you know, not seeing the ecosystem of the, of the couple. And I think that a lot of what we've been talking about now really points to that it creates more space for both partners to exist in the relationship.

It creates more space in the ecosystem for more of what each of us, each of the, each partner brings and is, and gifts and triggers and fears Yeah, I think probably the same thing can be said when I talked about compromise, where I was like, hey, like, I don't, I don't believe in compromise in a relationship like this, or probably any relationship. And that can come off as very hard for people. So I just want to explain it the same way that you just explained making more space. So if there is something that Tara is really strongly believes in that doesn't work for me, The way that we work that out is it's not, "I'm going to compromise." And what I mean to say is that I am not going to deny a part of myself to make sure that she's happy. And her happiness is incredibly important to me, but it's not my job. So what we do instead is we say— we're very clear on our nos, right? We're very clear, like, "This won't work for me." She's like, "This won't work for me." And we assume that we can find a solution that can work for both of us. And so some people might call that compromise, but I'm not calling it compromise because I don't feel compromised at the end of it. And neither does Tara. We both feel like, "Okay, we found something that works for both of us." And we have faith that we can do that. And it's when people feel compromised over and over again, You're on one level, the idea is like, oh, I'm benefiting them by compromising myself. That's why we do it. That's the thought process. But what you're actually doing is creating a relationship that has more resentment in it. So that's not going to benefit them. And you're also not teaching them how you need to thrive. So that's not benefiting them. So what you're going to get is a relationship where one person's resentful and the other person is married or dating somebody who's not thriving. And that's not sexy and that's not hot and that's not healthy. And so it's far more important to do the work that's required to figure out how both people can get their needs met in a way that feels great for everybody and everybody can be excited about.

Yeah. Yeah. And a feature, a feature of a compromise seems to be that there's a false end. It's like, well, we've compromised and this is where we're at and that's just the decision we've made. And something that it seems that I'm picking up from what you're saying is that if we are, if we are both committed to finding the thing that works for both of our needs, that's, it is a really tall order because we have infinite needs. Like they're just going to continue to grow and they're going to continue to have some kind of apparent conflict. But sitting in the question, sitting in the wonder of Yeah. How is it if we assume that there's a way to get both of our needs met and we sit in that question, what new solutions come to the surface? None of them perfect. All of them in iteration.

Yeah.

And not stop the process and say, well, there's our compromise and that's that.

Yeah, totally. And which speaks to something else too, which is I don't really believe in commitments in the relationship outside of the commitment to be committed to the relationship.

Trippy.

Yeah, we, we, we, we change, right? Like, the commitment— the way— what Tara needed when she was 26 is not what Tara needs now. And what I needed when I was 26 is not— when we got married— is not what I need now. And like, so I, I think that the agreement we have is like, how do we support each other's growth and be there for each other in that way? And, and that's our priority. And that's like, that's the commitment we have to the relationship. And so we both get to experience a lot of freedom, and we both get to experience, you know, support and tenderness and care. And but we don't feel like we have to be a certain way for the other person or have to maintain some way of being for the other person. And so this idea of commitment, even sexual commitment, or commitment to agreements or roles or ways of being or dishes, or like, all that needs to be renegotiated as our needs change.

It makes me really wonder what your vows were like.

Yeah, me too. I have no idea.

Yeah, it also strikes me as really funny and great because I get a lot of questions about, yeah, what kind of commitments or what kind of rules are going to make my relationship work for me, especially in sort of like a poly or ethical non-monogamy, or just like some little bit of opening up, some sort of relationship transition question. And that question, I'm all— I never have any idea how to respond. Like, that's not how I make my relationships work for me.

Yeah.

Yeah, less rules, more attunement.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

That we take.

Yeah, especially in that field when I've worked with clients that are, you know, have open relationships, those agreements always are changing and they have to. They like, they might have an agreement but it's always temporary, right? You know, and, and the couples that I know who have been doing that you know, having that lifestyle for now 25 years of marriage, um, their agreements have totally changed through that time frame, you know, from completely open to slightly open to only together, open only together, to like the whole— they've had like massive transitions. And it depends on like, do you have kids? Do you— are you taking— is somebody taking care of a baby, you know? You know, are you going through menopause? Are you, you know, like, right, all of those things have an effect and they're all biological changes that affect the agreement in the relationship if we're, if we're actually being attuned, which is beautifully said.

Well, this seems like a pretty good place to stop.

Polyamory and scene.

I actually did have one more topic, though. It seems like maybe kind of a left turn, but it's just— it's another thing that I, I feel like keeps coming up a lot.

Yeah, please.

People asking how to get out of a dynamic that they're in that's more or less something like an anxious avoidant dynamic. So for instance, somebody like, how can I stop feeling hurt because I'm sort of like chasing after somebody who's emotionally unavailable? And then they, they disconnect. I'm, I'm always doing that. How can I stop?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we've already covered the how, but I want to put it into that context. So let's say, just, just to translate what you asked, let's say that there's somebody who's constantly chasing their lovers. They're constantly fighting for their attention, or they're the ones that are rejected, or they're the ones that are abandoned, and their lovers are always the one who are kind of aloof and distant. And they're like, how do I get out of that dynamic? And the way through is to fully fall in love with and accept and look forward to the emotional state that happens when you are rejected or when you are chasing— and when you are chasing the person. It's, it's, it's falling in love with that part of yourself is the quickest way to do it. And the other thing that can be helpful in that particular dynamic is seeing that every one of you, like, all the ways in which you're wanting the attention are also ways in which you're pushing the person away. This is like, jealousy is like that. Jealousy is like, I really want that person, but my jealousy in its, in and of itself is pushing them away, or my neediness is pushing them away. And, um, so to be able to see that every— at which, which means on some level you also don't want it and you're not taking responsibility, right? So there's— and so that's the kind of the empowering move that, that most people are going to reject at first until they see it, which is, oh, I'm actually pushing them away, so therefore I am choosing to push them away. There's something in me that doesn't want that level of intimacy. There's something in me that equates love with chasing, not love with receiving. And so I'm scared of a love where I receive. I'm scared of the other guy across the room who's like, wants to adore me and wants to be needy of me. I'm like, no, fuck that. I don't even find you attractive. And so I'm making a choice here. And, and if they can see that they're a choice and move to the empowered stance of like, oh, I can, I can feel all the stuff I'm scared to feel, including the stuff like receiving love or feeling empowered, or feeling like I'm hot shit and they can earn my— they can earn me. They don't— I'm not going to chase them. All those emotional experiences that they aren't allowing themselves to feel because it's so fucking scary. And it's either scary because it feels like an abyss that I'm going to fall into, or it feels I'm going to be arrogant if I'm like, you know, you got to earn me. All of those experiences, until they're— until they're all felt and loved, then you're in the— you're going to be in that dynamic. Also, as we talked about, you and I, and grief, it's like when that relationship ends, if you can grieve that thing entirely, fully grieve the fact that you have been spending 20 years of your life chasing pretty much your mom or dad's love through the face of a boyfriend or a girlfriend, and that's how you've chosen to spend your life, and you thought video games was a waste of fucking time you can fully grieve that experience, you know, that can also be a huge part of that healing journey.

Yeah, beautifully said. Awesome.

Well, that does now feel like a great, great ending point.

Again, I'm hoping Alexa just goes, no, it's not. Goddamn it, don't tell me what to do.

Brad, you're always speaking over me. Why do you do this to me?

You just made this podcast go over 1 hour. We've never done that before. Now we have. Ah, you always do this.

I also have a story that I always do this. Thank you for seeing me in my slowness.

Even though we were joking, that still made me Aww.

Thanks, y'all. This is really fun.

All right. Thank you both.

Total pleasure.

Mwah.

Okay. Mwah. Bye.

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