Vulnerability — Connection Course Series #5

The vulnerability is not something that can be like— it's not a morality, right? It's not like this is the place to be vulnerable, this is not. It's in every moment you can feel where your fear and your truth are together, and that's the vulnerable action.

Welcome to The Art of Accomplishment, where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with with enjoyment and ease. My name is Brett Kistler. I'm an adventurer, entrepreneur, and a self-exploration enthusiast. I'm here with my co-host, Joe Hudson. Joe is a business coach who spent decades working with some of the world's top executives and teams, developing a unique model of human patterns that underpin how we operate with ourselves, each other, and the world. A good entry point into this model is a mindset called VIEW: vulnerability, impartiality, empathy, and wonder. Through understanding and cultivation, we learn to easefully drop into the VIEW new state of mind, deepening self-awareness and increasing our connection with the world around us. To learn more about this podcast or courses, visit artofaccomplishment.com.

Many of us have learned to associate vulnerability with weakness. We fear that being deeply vulnerable will open the door to being dominated or taken advantage of by others. What's the difference between vulnerability and timidness, And how can unprotected vulnerability be a sign of strength and courage? Vulnerability is the V in VIEW and the topic of today's episode. So Joe, what do you mean when you use the word vulnerable?

What do I mean by the word when I use vulnerable?

Um, it means speaking your truth even when it's scary.

That's what I mean by vulnerable. If it's not your truth, it's not vulnerable. And if it's not scary to say it, it's not vulnerable.

Okay, so somatically, how, how do we tell the difference between saying the scary thing and just saying something while scared?

Oh, wow, that's a great question. Um, the difference for me in somatically is that in one of them I'm embracing the fear, and then the other one I'm trying to get rid of the fear. So if I'm saying the scary thing, then I'm embracing it. I'm saying, oh, here's fear, and I'm going to actually feel this in my body. I'm going to open up to this thing. I'm going I'm gonna jump off this cliff, if you will, and I'm gonna say the thing. And it's kind of, it's not overcoming, but it's facing and feeling your fear. Whereas if you're just saying something while you're scared, that's more like, what do I say to get out of this situation, right? So in that one, you're trying to avoid the fear. You have it, but you're trying to get rid of it.

So this embracing of fear versus avoiding of the fear, that's the benefit of a vulnerability practice?

It's one of them.

Yeah.

I mean, so there's something that happens when we embrace the fear or we face it. If we say, okay, yeah, I'm happy to feel this fear. One of the things that often happens is it shifts to excitement, but also it's a deeply empowering move. It's a deeply empowering move to say, oh, I can feel this. I don't have to cower to this emotional experience and I don't have to avoid it and I don't have to push it away. I can actually embrace it. I'm powerful enough to embrace this, this emotion that most people want to reject. And so that's one of the benefits. But another one of the benefits is that what you notice often when you start, especially when it comes to judgment, when you start being vulnerable about things that you judge yourself on, which is one of the ways that you can be vulnerable, you start realizing that most people aren't going to judge you for it. Right? So you can be like, oh, I'm lazy. And then, and then you notice like most people don't maybe even think you're lazy. And then those who do maybe are like, yeah, that's part of who you are and I'm okay with it. There's the amount that we judge ourselves is far more, far greater than what other people judge us for, for the most part. And so every time we act vulnerably, we get to see that, we get to position what the voice in our head tells us is wrong with us compared to what the world tells us is wrong with us. So that's another thing that's like incredibly useful about a long-term vulnerability practice. But the main thing that a vulnerability practice gives us that's outside of those two things that we just talked about is that it allows us to find our truth. You find out that as you speak your truth, even though it's vulnerable, your world starts aligning around your truth instead of your presentation of yourself. And all of a sudden, it brings you closer to yourself. So you're— the more you're vulnerable, the more you're setting up the world to see you for what you are, to respond to you for what you are. And over time, the world changes and you and around you because you're not willing to accept certain things that you were when you weren't being yourself, or you're willing to say things that you weren't willing to say when you weren't being yourself. And then all of a sudden, you can start understanding yourself more and more, more clearly, see yourself more clearly because you're more in alignment and you're more aware of your, um, in the subtle ways that you're not aligned. So that's the biggest benefit of, of a vulnerability practice.

So what you said about finding that others won't judge us for the same things we judge ourselves for, that seems true, but it also must be true that people will judge us for some of the things that we judge ourselves for, and even some things that we don't judge ourselves for. So it can't always be true that everything about us will be accepted. And what do you have to say to that?

Yeah, that's totally true.

Yeah, yeah, you're— we're gonna be judged all the time. Um, I think what, what you There's a couple things about that. The first thing is that you notice is that what people are judging you for is really not about you, it's about what they judge themselves for.

And that becomes pretty apparent if you allow yourself to open to their judgment.

You know, oftentimes I work with people and they're like, people are judging me.

I'm like, yeah, look around, there's somebody here judging you, no doubt about it. And just allowing that in for people changes something. It's like, oh wait, I've been running away from this my whole life, and it's happening all the time, right? So there's some way in which allowing yourself to be open for the judgment, um, helps, you know, is one of the benefits of the vulnerability. But the other thing is that there's kind of a current shame and past shame that happens, right? And oftentimes when you're being vulnerable, past shame can be recognized and, and seen, and people don't need to be ashamed of it. I think a great example of this is there's a couple movies out there. One is called The Work and one is called What I Want My Words to Say to You.

And they're kind of group process work in prison.

And you are sitting there with these prisoners in this movie who are telling you, like, their innermost work. And you know they're killers. You know they've, like, slashed people open. And you're just sitting there like, oh, like, you, you have this empathy for them. You don't want them to feel shame. They're doing the work.

And so there's a way in which that past shame, which is what you know, is really not useful for us as people, it really helps resolve that and heal that.

Because generally a lot of people have some acceptance for that if you are being vulnerable about it, right? If you're being all harsh and hardcore about it, they may not. But current shame is the more likely place where people aren't going to immediately not judge you. Like, I'm stealing from your house at this exact moment, right? Like, that's less.

And, and that's because current shame is actually quite useful. It's our signal that, oh, this isn't—

what we're doing right now isn't, isn't what we want to be doing. It's not in alignment with who we are.

That's what current shame is for.

Past shame is this idea that if, like, I brutalize myself, then it'll somehow change the way that I act in the future, which tons of studies show that that's just not true. And it's not really useful. And it's, and it's what really condemns us to repeat that pattern. It's a form of resistance, and so that pattern persists.

And so on one level, yes, people are definitely going to judge you, and there's some benefit in that because you get to see that they're really just judging themselves, especially in the past shame.

And you also— the other benefit is, oh right, it really helps you point out the current shame that's going on, the shame for what you're doing in this moment or in this day.

So that's another That's another way to look at it.

This is interesting to me because a lot of the expected reaction that for somebody that we might imagine can receive criticism and can receive judgment, the expected response we think of from a strong person is just to let it roll off their back. And that's not vulnerable. That's like, that's protected. So what is it? What's the difference between letting judgment in, in a way that doesn't produce unnecessary shame or just trigger and bring up and dredge up past shame and bring it into the present moment?

Yeah, right. It's, it's letting it break your heart. You know, if like, if you think about, if you feel in your body anytime that you're judging somebody, it's, you can feel the discomfort of it. You can feel that it's an avoidance of feeling your own emotions or your own insecurity or your own deeper feelings. Like there's an exercise that we do where people basically say, what they're judging somebody for, and then they identify the feelings underneath that that judgment is holding at bay. So what it is, is to actually feel your feelings, feel the judgment, is to let it in. And when you say somebody rolls it off their back, that seems like a strong thing for us. When it's strong, when it's natural, when you're not like, okay, I'm gonna let that roll off my back, where it's like you just don't notice it. It's like that famous saying that if you're trying to be patient, you're not patient. But it's just as strong, if not stronger, to lean into it and feel that judgment and let it break your heart. It doesn't mean that you have to grovel at the floor for the person, which immediately is what people's brains go to, that this— now you're just a groveling, weak, pathetic person, which is like incredibly, um, far from the truth. Because the one of the greatest strengths that most people don't have is the ability to actually just feel their emotions. They're just constantly trying to manage them because they're really scared shitless of their emotions. And then the other thing just to say is that if you think about vulnerability and you think about like the Catholics have confession and the AA has its version of, you know, making amends and talking about all the things that you did while you were, you know, drunk.

Like this is a huge part of almost all healing work.

Right, is vulnerably admitting to yourself and to others what you've done, and to see that you're not doomed for it, to see that there's salvation or repentance or whatever you want to call it, that you can still be loved inside of this. And if we don't share those things, we— there's no way that the shame can kind of come out of the closet and be seen and be loved.

So one big facet then of vulnerability is this letting judgment in in a way that breaks our heart open instead of sending us into a shame cycle. And also there's the vulnerability in feeling the pain behind the judgment that we have for others. What other kinds of vulnerability are there?

Oh, let's see, asking for what you want, that one's usually really vulnerable for people. Drawing boundaries can be incredibly vulnerable for people. Expressing yourself, you know, singing or Sharing your poetry can be very vulnerable for people. I think the most vulnerable thing for almost all of us is letting the love in, is like really dropping our guard and dropping our wall of protection and really allowing love to come in. That's an incredibly vulnerable thing to do, especially if we've been taught, which most of us have, that love is criticism or love is abuse or love is rejection. —And also, speaking of rejection, it's just allowing yourself to be rejected, like you said with the judgment. Really, when you allow judgment in and you feel it all the way, it's the same thing as saying, "I'm allowing myself to be rejected," and you let that break your heart open. And as you do let that heart break, what happens—this is the weird part about it—is that if you really let that heartbreak in and you really feel the pain of it, what happens is it just starts to not bother you. I had several experiences where there's been something where, let's say, let's say it's a lot like judgment, where I noticed that, oh, when people judge me, I kind of get— my defense goes up, I kind of— my chest expands a little bit, and I maybe look down on them or something. And I'm like, you know, I don't want to do that anymore. I want to really let that break my heart. And I did, you know, for weeks, months. I'm trying to think, it was probably about 6 weeks. And I'd be crying in odd places and all that crazy stuff. And now when people judge me, like, there's just like no— very seldom a reaction. There's still sometimes a reaction when it's somebody who I like deeply love and respect and they do it, and then I'll notice maybe I get defensive or maybe my heart still breaks. But the tremendous amount of judgment that you get, particularly in a position like this, tons of people, you know, have an opinion and want to judge what you're saying and doing, which is absolutely their right. It's like, it's no, it doesn't even cross my consciousness anymore. And that's what the heartbreak provides. It provides you the courage to love more deeply.

There seem to be good game theoretic reasons to keep our fears and intentions closer to our chests sometimes. And how do we speak our truth and share our internal world like this without being taken advantage of?

Well, the first thing to say is that, like I said just a little bit earlier, boundaries are vulnerable too, right?

When you draw a boundary, if you draw it in the way that I think about boundaries, which is not asking somebody else to be different, but saying what you're gonna do differently, like, hey, if you're gonna yell at me, I'm going to leave. That kind of a boundary, often what you're saying is, are you going to reject me for being myself? That's what the boundary is saying. And accepting that they might do that, right? And, and so it's incredibly vulnerable to draw that boundary. And also, when you're really capable of stepping into that vulnerability, you're less likely to be taken advantage of. Most people are taken advantage of because there's something in them that says, nope, this isn't right.

I know this isn't right.

'But if I say that, I might get rejected.' And the vulnerable thing is to say it and find out if you get rejected. So vulnerability actually protects you. One other way to kind of look at this a little bit is that most of the time when people are taking advantage of, it's because they're avoiding their fear, right? So I might be poor my whole life, and therefore I'll listen to this person. Or I'm, I'm scared that I'll procrastinate my whole life, so I'll buy this thing from this guru.

Or I want to make the money, so I believe that my boss is going to promote me when they don't promote me, right?

It's fear that allows us to be taken advantage of, not vulnerability. And if you really vulnerably say, wow, I'm— I just noticed that I'm curious if I'm going to be taken advantage of here, wow, the chances of you getting taken advantage of are a tremendous amount less, you know. So my experience is that people think about it differently is because when they were young, they loved unconditionally and it hurt. And so they think that they're going to be hurt if they're loving. And vulnerability, in the end of the day, is an opening up to your, to your love, to your openness, to your truth of who you are. And so people associate that with a pain, but it's, it's actually the fear that drives the being taken advantage of far more.

So what makes this— you kind of touched on this just now, but let's dig into a little bit more about what makes this so counterintuitive to most of us. If vulnerability really is strength and if vulnerability and embracing our fear is the way out of being taken advantage of, what makes so many of us have this block? It may have been the case when we were kids that something happened, but we've grown up now. What makes that persist?

Yeah, so we're kids and we're not accepted for who we are as kids. That's just very— if there's very few, if any, people get like just fully accepted for who they are. You know, don't have a temper tantrum, don't cry, don't get angry, don't get sad, don't be scared, man up, you know, lift up your chin. It's like what we are is not fully accepted. Calm down, don't get so excited, blah, blah, blah.

And so what that makes us feel is it makes us feel helpless as kids, right?

It's like this deep, helpless feeling of, wait, this is who I am and I'm not supposed to be this way. And, and I'm having love removed from me if I'm myself, which does— it feels really bad to not be yourself. And it feels really bad to get love removed from you, from your parents, where, you know, your entire biology is designed to get the love from your parents. And so you start to feel scared, and you also feel like you're wrong.

And so that's the memory that lives with us, and, and it controls us. So we don't, like, want to—

we don't want to feel that. As I think we've discussed before, there's different waves, brain waves. There's alpha and beta and theta, and theta is that dream state. It's that kind of where you go into hypnosis. And kids from 0 to 7, 0 to 8, they're in theta all the time. So this is the programming. The programming is don't be yourself in these ways, because if you do, you're gonna feel really helpless. You're gonna feel scared and you're gonna feel wrong.

And so when we start to be ourselves, that's what—

that's the feeling that we have to move through. And when you move through it 2 or 3 times, it's done.

You just gotta move through it 3 or 4 times.

2 or 3 times, you're finished. It's not very many times that you have to move through it, then the system has changed itself. It's like muscle memory more than anything else, right?

So this, this muscle memory, this— our relationship to vulnerability is imprinted on us when we're young by other people. And a lot of this seems, seems like it's about other people and their effect on our vulnerable— our imprint of vulnerability. But now when we're doing this work from the inside out, do we need somebody else around to be like, to be on the same page with us, to be vulnerable? How do we develop this vulnerability from the inside out when it was patterned on us from the outside in?

Yeah, so one of the things that I've noticed is that when people have a really strong access to their emotions, they care less and less what, um, other people think. And so people who have like a really strong ability to feel their anger, have a fluid anger and a fluid sadness and fluid fear, that they care less. And, and it's because they're incredibly related. The vulnerability— vulnerable thing to do when you're by yourself is to allow yourself to feel whatever you're feeling. Like right now, in this moment, you can close your eyes and there's something in your system emotionally uncomfortable, and you can lean in and open to it, embrace it, and welcome it. And that's the same feeling of vulnerability. Because if we got rejected as a kid, we've rejected it internally as well. And so allowing ourselves to feel it and embracing that intensity, and it can be done in really literally every moment of the day, that's showing yourself that these feelings that you have, this truth that you have, is acceptable. It's, it's a great way to grok that like, oh, there is nothing wrong with me. The thing that we think is wrong with us is resisted emotion, emotion that we think we're not supposed to have.

Um, so internally it's jumping off the same cliff.

It's like, oh, I'm, I'm going to allow myself to feel this feeling. It's the same when you're being vulnerable and you're speaking your truth. You're like, oh, I might feel rejected. Oh, I might feel judged. Oh, I might feel abandoned. And it's allowing yourself to feel these feelings, whether it's internal or external.

So what's a, what's a specific example of one of these, one of these feelings, these uncomfortable feelings that we might find if we do this exercise, and then a vulnerable action that might come from embracing that feeling?

Yeah, so, so the feelings are some of the ones I've mentioned, like rejection or abandonment or, uh, anger.

It can be different for everybody, but what can be even more different is what the action is that's vulnerable, right? So For me, it was very easy to move to fight if I felt attacked. And what was far harder, more vulnerable for me, you know, some years ago, was to say ouch, to say that hurt, to say I'm sorry. Those were far more vulnerable actions because I felt like I would be attacked if I did that.

But there's some people who always say I'm sorry, and so their more vulnerable action might be to stand up for themselves. So it's really different.

The vulnerability is not something that can be like— it's not a morality, right? It's not like this is the place to be vulnerable, this is not. It's in every moment you can feel where your fear and your truth are together, and that's the vulnerable action. It's really a very personal thing.

And you were talking about the, the fight part, like how does vulnerability look in the face of outright direct hostility? Like, perhaps there's no physical danger that you're in, but you're in the face of strong aggression.

Yeah, so again, that's different for everybody.

You know, like, the story goes that, say, Gandhi got shot and he forgave the person before he died. That might be a great act of vulnerability, but it might not. I mean, that's the crazy part. That might have been like second nature for Gandhi. Um, so it's really about seeing what your truth is. So if you're in like outright attack, the vulnerable thing might be to say, I don't want to engage with you. And that could be really like, if you learned as a kid that walking away from somebody was something that was going to get you attacked, then that might be the really vulnerable thing. And you might do that 5, 6, 7 times and find out, oh, I can do that now. Okay. And then now it's not vulnerable anymore. And now what's vulnerable? Now what's vulnerable might be like, oh my goodness. Yeah, please share all that. I see you're really angry at me. Please share that all with me. And then that— you might do that for 5 or 6 times, and all of a sudden that's not vulnerable anymore. And then the vulnerable thing might be like, I love you, and it hurts that you're attacking me, and I love you, I'm not going to stop loving you, right? And, and you just can't determine what that is for a person. It's, it's very much what it is for you. It's, it's your truth, it's your fear, it's not anybody else's. And it could be stop it. It could be, I'm not going to accept this from you right now. It could be literally yelling back. It's very different for every person. But if you, if you don't feel like you have the freedom to do all of those things, then you're not free. There's a saying that says like, if your hand is always in a fist or if your hand is always in a receiving position, both of them are cripple. You really want that flexibility. And vulnerability gives you that.

So a lot of the examples you gave, there wasn't really a clear— like, it's, it's, it's really person-dependent. Um, so people could find themselves using— I've seen this happen before— people will use vulnerability as a defense or as a way to attract attention or manipulate a situation. And it'll be— maybe it'll be a false vulnerability, or maybe they will truly feel that that's vulnerable for them because it's just making them feel the fear that they're you know, pattern to feel. Uh, what's going on with that?

I've got a big smile on my face. Yeah, so this is again this, um, um, belief system that weakness is, um, is vulnerability. So what, what's happening there often is that people are using— they're saying, oh look, I'm weak, and it's making you feel guilty or making you want to take care of them or making you feel like you've done something wrong. And so it's really not vulnerability at all. When— if you think about the moments when you've done it, right, when you've, you know, played weak to manipulate, or we all have on some level played weak to, um, to get someone to help us. Um, I think guilting people is one version of this, right?

Um, if you see, we're not—

we're neither in our truth nor are we scared when we're doing that.

So yeah, so it's just a confusion over, again, that vulnerability and weakness are the same thing.

So how do you know then, if you're in one of those situations, how do you know if you're really being vulnerable or if you just are having bad boundaries or trying to control? What's the pointer to that?

Yeah, it's when you are in your truth and when you are embracing fear. Right, and not feeling it but embracing it. And, and then a good way to know when you're not being vulnerable is that there's, um, guilt involved. And it— because almost all the time when we're manipulating somebody, there's something that kind of feels dirty in us, and, and that's like a guilt feeling. So that's another way to know if, if you're doing this to control. And you see this all the time nowadays where people control by saying, I don't feel safe. Right? They say, I don't feel safe, and that's like, you have to change for me. And so we can turn anything into control. We can turn boundaries into control. We can turn vulnerability in control.

And you see people do this too, where they're like, I was vulnerable with them and they weren't vulnerable back, as if, as if it's an exchange. As if, like, if we're keeping score and that happened, you won because you get to be vulnerable.

So if you're, if you're keeping score, if it's guilt, then you know that you're not in a vulnerable state. Got it.

So vulnerability is already like, it's widely accepted as a directionally correct heuristic for personal relationships, notwithstanding the challenges and, you know, different relationships people have or the definitions of vulnerability. But what about in the workplace? What happens when we bring vulnerability to the workplace where it's Um, it often seems like vulnerability should be, or is expected to be reduced in a workplace.

Yeah. So what happens?

You manage people better, you sell better, you build better products.

That's, that's what happens when you're vulnerable in a, in a workplace. It's kind of interesting to hear you say it, ask the question. Um, because I know, I know that so many corporate environments are built on a lack of vulnerability.

Um, but you know, it doesn't matter what, what you look at. If you look at the people who are outstanding performers, that are really outstanding performers, there's a way in which they're vulnerable in their work. It's even, I know it's kind of crazy to even say this, it's even in rap music. If you look at rap music and all the belligerence and all the, um, and the fronting and, and saying how cool they are and, you know, how they're going to get everybody else. The people who are most vulnerable in their raps are the most successful. The ones who actually show themselves, like Eminem, whatever they are, they're like, they're kind of revealing a part of them, their psychology that would be hard for anybody else to reveal if it was in them. Those are often the most successful. And it's just like that all the way around. If you, There's, um, tons of stories. There's a woman in Brazil who, you know, had her company work without a paycheck for 6 months because she was so vulnerable and let them know. There's, uh, Reinventing Organizations. There's a story of a CEO of a company, they lost a third of their business, and he vulnerably went to everybody and said, I don't know what to do. And the whole company was like, hey, let's, um, let's reduce our salaries for a third until we can get another customer in and they got a customer relatively quickly. Um, there's just so many stories of, you know, they talk about brand authenticity. That's a vulnerable thing. You know, I saw the head of the CEO of Patagonia get up and speak one time and he said, for brand authenticity, I want to tell you what we're not doing for the environment that we could be doing. And he just listed it out. That's how he started. And immediately everybody was just like, Oh, wow, you really do care about the environment. Whereas other people are like, this is everything I'm doing. You're like, greenwashing. Vulnerability works. If you even think about like the great presidential speeches and they're talking, they're, they're, they're evoking a vulnerability of like, I am responsible for this. After all, I'm the president. Or ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. That those sentiments are all these vulnerable sentiments. Of like opening up our humanity, because it's our humanity that creates connection. And all business is, is connection. It's a connection to our thoughts. It's a connection to each other. It's a connection to our customers. And so the deeper we are in connection with ourselves, with our ideas, with our emotions, with our customers, with the product, that those levels of connection, it just makes us better in business.

What tends to happen if you, if somebody who's embarking on this on this journey right now and bringing more and more of themselves and their vulnerability to their workplace, what can they expect?

What's that gonna look like? Probably a bumpy ride.

I would say that it's a bit of a bumpy ride at first because one of the main reasons people fight is the question of who's in charge. And if you've been acting like you know everything all the time and you start being vulnerable, people might be like, oh, is he, not in charge anymore. And they might test that for a while until they realize, you know, that nope, you're still strong, you still are determined, you, you're just also being real, you're just creating connection.

And also, most of the time when people start being vulnerable, they kind of, kind of oscillate between vulnerable and defended, vulnerable and defended, vulnerable, and that kind of creates a confusing signal for the company.

So it can be a little bit of a bumpy ride, but it definitely, um, turns the corner relatively soon if you commit to it.

And what happens is, you know, you know yourself better. There's a famous, famous Drucker quote which basically, you can't manage others if you can't manage yourself.

So self-knowledge happens.

People are more prone to trust you because you're actually real with them. You create, like I said, deeper connections. And, and people, they follow authenticity. If you really look at who we pick as our leaders. They can be assholes, they can be kind, they can be saints, they can be incredibly intelligent, but the people that we pick are the people who are authentic, you know? And the less authentic, say, a presidential candidate is, the more it feels like they're putting on a show, the less likely they are to get elected.

I like that you pointed out the people that we pick as our leaders because, you know, in the workplace, there's often an assumption that we didn't pick our boss, but we really did pick our job and pick who's going, you know, we did in a sense. Now, as a leader, as a, as a boss, and you had mentioned that as, as people show up to the workplace with more vulnerability, they kind of go back and forth between like clean vulnerability and then, you know, being messy. And that can be really disorienting for people around them. As a leader, how can you create an environment that allows people that space, that slack for messiness as they show up and try to bring more vulnerability?

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, question that a lot of people never get to. I would say that the real way to do this is to have really clear boundaries. No emotions at people. Um, you take accountability for the mess that you make, and those are the things that are most useful for the people who are there, right? So somebody says, oh, I'm gonna be vulnerable, and they are vulnerable. And, you know, in a normal business, maybe they would say, that was unprofessional, we need you to be professional.

Like, basically take that part of yourself and stuff it.

Um, and, and I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but if you're— it's just not the most efficient thing.

And if you're choosing to be vulnerable and somebody does that same kind of like really big mess, it's like, I really understand, and Karen, at the end of the day, these are still your responsibilities, and it's still your job to treat your employees, your employees or your peers with respect. And like, how do we accept this part of you and still make sure that all the other expectations are met? Because I think a lot of the times when people start being vulnerable, it does— it can allow people to get messy and too entwined in, in trying to save each other, right? And if somebody's vulnerable with you and you try to save them, it can get really quite messy. And it's really the thing is, if someone's vulnerable with you, it's how do you empower them? How do you turn it around so that they see that there's actions that they can take responsibility for?

So as an example of this, um, I was recently working with somebody.

I was very explicit, please do not do this. It will hurt a lot of, um, our customers if you do it. They went ahead and did it. And, and I basically said, oh, I noticed that I've lost trust. And I don't want to work with anybody that I don't trust. And the way that I could see rebuilding trust is that you identify what created that behavior in you and you tell me how you're addressing it so that I can be confident it's not going to happen again. And so it's just an incredibly clear boundary and holding them accountable, which is the deep form of empowerment. And there was no anger, there was no shame, there was no, you've been bad, there was no me trying to save them. There was just pretty— I actually appreciated them for showing me some things in the conversation that we had prior where I was like, oh, I really appreciate that you showed me these things and these are ways that I can improve. And I still notice that I don't have trust in you.

I know something you, you kind of got to a little earlier was, um, you know, vulnerability seems to be contagious. As you— if you show up to, to a relationship or a workplace becoming more vulnerable, it seems that often others will become more vulnerable too. And you can just expect that to happen and that you can expect them to be messy. And maybe if you're doing it from the framework of view in a course, you might have more, you know, more theory to fall back on, on how to like let your messiness be, and they might have less. So it seems like as we're preparing ourselves to experience being more messy as we become vulnerable, we can just expect other messiness to show up around us in vulnerability. What's your advice for that?

Yeah, well, first of all, yes, messiness is going to show up, um, but it's not going to be more messy than what's happening now. So it's just going to be outed, you know, it's just going to be raised to the surface. So it's, it's not that, um, vulnerability just is going to make your world a mess for a while. It's just gonna like shine light into the corners you haven't swept. And so every one of those messes, if it's approached with more vulnerability and, and boundaries and that kind of thing, then the world gets more and more clean, and then there's less and less friction, and then everything happens more and more smoothly. So the question that you're asking though is still is a good one, which is like, what do you do when you shine the light and see that there's a whole bunch of dirt, and the response is you clean it out. And view conversations are a great way to do that. Uh, it's really working with each other and holding each other accountable with vulnerability, impartiality, empathy, and wonder.

And as we, as we continue to practice vulnerability, how does, how does the way that we express it change over time beyond this, like, this early shifting that seems like it might be higher magnitude, what, what then happens over a longer period?

A deep authenticity shows up. I think about my wife all the time in this, right? Like, I watch particularly other women, I watch them just kind of sit in awe of my wife often. It's almost like they're watching a puppy, you know, the same kind of awe that you see like a puppy with, because she's just like so— and you, you've met her, you know, like she's just like so much of herself She's just like, oh, you know, like, tea, flowers. She's so in her world of joy, and everybody's like, oh, like, and that's what happens is that you're more yourself, and more yourself means you're more in love. It means there's more joy in your life, and people want to be around that, and people are fascinated with that, and it creates awe in people. Think about it this way. Think about a friend that you have that you like very much, you have a deep love for, and there's just something that's bothers you about them, right? And you put that person in your mind and imagine if that thing that they bothered you with, they were just super vulnerable. They're like, you know, I noticed that I am kind of constantly bragging, and I'm really sorry for that. It's not how I want to be with you. I don't want to have to try to make myself feel good or make you feel bad. That's one example. Just imagine you have a friend like that. Like, what happens in your system if they're vulnerable like that with you? It's like you immediately want to be around them more.

You drop the— you drop the defense. Exactly.

And that's what happens. So the more you're vulnerable, the more that happens. Um, sales, it's the same thing. There's, um, good studies about people who are— who care more about the relationship, who are actually really driven by serving the people through sales. And how much better they do performance-wise. It's not the only thing that makes a good salesperson, for sure. There's definitely data that challenging people can make you a better salesperson, but challenging people is a form of care. Asking questions helps sales. We know that. But asking questions actually shows a concern for them as well. And in a weird way, if you look at all of the things that make great salespeople, they're all based on the fact that they're centered on the other person, that they're not about closing the deal. It's about building the relationship. It's about helping the person discover something. It's about entering into their world. And so in sales, it's the same thing that it's like a very vulnerable— all those things are very vulnerable moves. And if you look at creating relationships generally, you think about the people that you— in business that you want to work with. The next time you're in business. Like, it's like you're starting your company and you can handpick 10 people that you want to work with. And how many of those are based on some level of, um, connection that you feel with that person? It's probably something like 7 out of 10, and then the other 3 are like highly competent in something. So that's another way to look at it.

That point that you brought up about challenging people is interesting. There's a, I mean, there are, there are vulnerable ways to challenge somebody and there are invulnerable ways to challenge somebody. But let's, let's assume that you've done it in the most vulnerable way. And it's, let's say it's sales, business, you know, something, um, something relatively high stakes and other people are depending on it. And you are authentically vulnerable in a way that challenges somebody. What if that is received as an attack?

Then you apologize. Then you say, I'm so sorry, I had no intention of attacking you. I was just hoping that we could discover something together. Yeah. If you're challenging, I mean, asking scary questions is, is a huge part of view. And that is challenging. That almost always when that question is really scary, it's really challenging. And if you do it with vulnerability, and which is the scary part, the impartiality, empathy, and wonder, then it's, it's far less likely to be seen as an attack. Still, it can be seen as attack. And then you just go like, I'm sorry that I have no, no intention of attacking you. Or you double down and you say, What's making you defensive? I don't understand. Like, what are you defending? You know, which would be another scary question if you're actually in wonder, not in judgment, if you're not trying to prove yourself right.

Yeah. Right, that points back to the state of being that view is, 'cause you could say, what makes you so defensive? Or you could say, really, what makes you defend against that?

Exactly. Or you can say, oh, I see that I've offended you and I really don't want to offend you, and can you, Help me see what it is that I've attacked and what you're defending, because you must really care about it if you're defending it.

Yeah. So, so we've talked a lot about what vulnerability is and what it looks like. Um, let's, let's talk a little bit more about the state of being that all of this points to and how we can, how we can know when we're in it and when we're not in it. And what are, what are some compass points that point towards this vulnerability that we can use as we, as we walk away from this episode?

Yeah, that's great. So intellectually, like we said probably several times now, that you're inviting your fear and you're saying what's true to you. That's the intellectual kind of— you can, I guess part of that's emotional, inviting your fear. Um, there's also kind of a, a heart opening, and the fear can often turn to excitement if you fully embrace that vulnerability, or it does maybe through the process of saying the thing that you want to say. So there's that heart openness that happens. And, and the— from the gut's perspective, it's very much like, yes, yes, let's do this. Yes. There might be a no in the nervous system, but the gut is like, yeah, this is true. This is it. And, and that's what you can feel. Those are kind of the, the ways to feel the vulnerability. But the, the easiest is just to say, oh, what's the scary thing that's true for me right now?

Yeah, I think some of the— one of the things that's in both the fear and the excitement of saying the vulnerable thing is knowing that your idea or your authenticity is about to be tested. Like, knowing that, you know, the relationship, you're about to find out how real it is for the other person, or how, how much connection there actually is here. Yeah. Or, you know, you're about to find out if you're going to be rejected or not instead of continuing to wonder for a long time. While you pretend to be—

Yeah, that's such a beautiful way of putting it. It's true. Yeah. And, and, and the interesting thing that your mind does in these moments is that what your mind does is it seems like that's the end of it. You know, like, oh my God, I'm going to see if I get rejected. And then they reject you. And then you can double down on vulnerability and you can be like, ouch, I was really hoping not to be rejected. And I, I, and I don't want to push you into not rejecting me. Then they might go, oh wait, hold on, I didn't— I'm not trying to reject you here. I just want to be seen in my truth. And oh, okay, what am I missing? Like, it doesn't end. The thing is, it just never ends. And but, but the fear tells us that there's like this cliff and it's over at that cliff. Oh, we're going to be rejected. But I can't tell you how many times today, today at lunch, there's an old babysitter of ours and her mother was sitting there, and I saw them, and I'd seen the babysitter maybe 2 or 3 years back, and she didn't look happy. And so I saw her today, and she looked great. And I said, wow, you look great. She said, oh, thanks. And I was like, yeah, the last time I saw you, you looked like you were wilting a little bit, and it's just great to see you look so good. And then I'm sitting at lunch with my daughter, 11 years old or whatnot, and the mother comes over and chastises me for saying what I said to her daughter. And I could feel rejected, and I did for a moment. I was like, ah, ouch. And then I walked over and I looked at the daughter and I said, I'm sorry, I had no intention of offending you, and I'm sorry if I offended you. And she said, oh, it's no problem. I just couldn't figure out a time recently where I felt withered and, or whatever, it felt bad. And I was like, oh, I don't think I've seen you for 2 or 3 years. She's like, oh, okay. The mom was still twisted about whatever was going on, but the daughter, like, immediately— and then she thanked me. Oh, thank you for apologizing. I'm like, yeah, no problem. And it was, you know, there's no end. There's just when you want to stop. And sometimes it's really vulnerable to say, I can't do this anymore. Yeah.

Yeah, there's two directions I want to go with that. One, that reminded me of a story from about, like, 10 years ago. Working on a commercial production job, and, uh, the key actor, who was a famous musician at the time, uh, showed up to set and just looked like death. And everybody on set tiptoed around that and just kind of coddled. And then he sits down, and the, the makeup girl walks up, and she's just like, "Wow, you look like shit." And he was just like, all of a sudden, all this tension just released. He's like, "Oh my God, yeah, I just feel like crap. I've been having these personal issues and like this and that and the sleep." And he just like got to just let it fall out.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I don't know how many times I've like said like, wow, you're being an ass, but with like just total joy, like no judgment in the system. And the person's like, oh yeah, I kind of am, fuck. And then we have a real conversation. Yeah. And it sounds— it feels vulnerable to say that though, you know.

Which brings another thing to be excited about with vulnerability is the, the dropping of pretense. You know, like you're about to find out, and this is probably where part of the fear comes in, like that you're going to have to revise your model of reality because you're testing it.

Exactly. All the time. Yeah, that's it. That's beautifully said.

Well, this has been a great episode, Joe. Thank you so much for your time. Total pleasure.

I look forward to the next one, Brett.

Likewise. Take care.

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