What is Safety? Applying Lessons From Extreme Sports to Life and Business

Welcome to The Art of Accomplishment, where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease. I'm Brett Kistler, here today with my co-host, Joe Hudson. Hey, Brett.

Hey, hey. Hey. I want to do something different today. I want to ask you questions. I want to interview you, and the reason I want to interview you is because you're just Your understanding of safety and fear, I think, is so unique given both like being a CEO of a company and, um, and doing air sports, losing friends, um, a lot of friends in air sports, that I wanted to kind of go into your story of how you've processed safety and fear. And I just think there's a lot to learn there for everybody and Also, I think it'd just be nice for everybody to know like a little bit more about you and your story. So I was hoping that we could— I could just interview you on safety and fear.

Yeah, let's do it. We were just, uh, we were just recording the second Limiting Beliefs episode just before this, and one of the things that we were talking about was this, was this thing around safety where we're afraid to try on different beliefs or see through our beliefs and explore different ways of being because we haven't proven that it's safe. And this is something that's been really, really big in my life for a very long time, and specifically in the world of BASE jumping and paragliding and just air sports, where the attachment to safety really shows up. Hmm. Yeah. So I'd love to get into that a little bit more.

Yeah. So I just had a curiosity. So what does safety mean to you? Like, what— like, that can mean a lot of things to a lot of people, and I'm wondering what it means to you.

First of all, safety is an illusion. Nothing, nothing is safe. Yeah, it's more of a— it's— we will call something safe if we feel comfortable, if we feel like we can be in flow, if we feel like we are capable of navigating the environment, navigating the jump we're about to do, navigating building a company, navigating a relationship. If we feel like we are going to survive it or what we care about is going to survive.

Well, when did you come to that conclusion? Like, how did you get there? How did you get— that's a pretty sophisticated thought process, right? Which is like, safety just means that I'm convinced I'm comfortable, right? Basically. And how did you get there? Because I'm sure that that wasn't the way you were born. So how did that happen?

Well, let's, let's kind of go back to when, when I started BASE jumping. When I started jumping, you know, reading, reading all the limited literature that there was at the time and talking to people, they were like, okay, this is a very dangerous sport. There's nothing you can do to make it safe. You can make it less dangerous, but ultimately there's a very real risk that you'll die. There's a very real risk that you'll have major injuries that you'll spend years recovering from and maybe never fully And that happens all the time to people. And it's going to happen to some of your friends if you're in the sport for long enough. Um, and it might be you and you're the friend that people are talking about. So kind of getting into that as like, okay, well, I, I still feel really drawn into this sport. And so I spent a lot of time sort of meditating on that. And I'd find myself just kind of sitting and imagining what it would be like if I broke my legs and you know, injured my spine and kind of did the seeing through, seeing through that negative outcome, seeing through that consequence and being like, well, if, if that happened, what would, what would be left? Would I be, would I be somebody who's in a wheelchair and then dedicating my life to studying neuroscience and solving spinal cord injuries? Or would I be somebody who just gives up? And it's like, well, I feel like I'd wanna be the person who'd continue doing something, continue, I feel like I could continue to find meaning. Seeing through those things was enough for me to feel safe going into the activity, which was to say that I felt comfortable that even if something happened to me, like I would be okay with that outcome because the exploration was worth it.

Did you ever just think like there's something wrong, like I'm crazy, there's something wrong with me, like, 'Why would I do something like that?' Did, did those thoughts ever happen?

Oh yeah, all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And sometimes I got off on it a little bit, you know, like, 'Oh yeah, I'm crazy. I'm one of those crazy ones. Yeah, whatever.' Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I can even see the little grin in you. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

You think I'm crazy? Watch this.

Hold my beer.

Yeah.

Uh, and so So that's interesting. So the— what— because what you're saying is— what, to some degree, what you're saying here is that like you got comfortable with it and therefore it felt safe. But the comfort in it is, um, it's very— it's on some level is very, uh, individualistic, right? The, the— what you could find comfortable and somebody else finds comfortable could be very different things. But also, comfort is based to some degree on what's happened in your past. And the way that you gained comfort here was looking towards your future, which is interesting and just an interesting thing to note.

Yeah, yeah, it's looking at the possible futures and saying, hey, is this something that I could be comfortable with? And like we talked about in Limiting Beliefs, it wasn't so that I would go ahead and get myself injured and be in a wheelchair. It was that so I could explore life feeling unconstricted and unconstrained.

Yeah.

And one thing that I learned about safety is that it can become— safety can become an idea that we use to stop seeing reality so that we feel comfortable. And that can be helpful for us. You know, like the first time you're making a BASE jump, there's certain things that you need to pay attention to. And there's also certain things that just might be overwhelming if you're considering them. So you focus on the task, you focus on the training, you focus on what you're about to do. And you try not to think too much about your mother crying when you die, because that might just be something that takes you out of the flow. I've had moments where there was— there was— there was one jump that I did in Europe where I jumped my wingsuit and I was flying down a mountain, and there was a section where if you were flying at a good enough glide ratio, you could then fly over another mountain and then have like a whole nother several thousand feet of of flight. And I found myself like, just kind of— I was gonna make it, I thought I was gonna make it, I was pretty sure I was gonna make it, and I just like— it flashed through my head of— I, I had this imagining of my, my girlfriend at the time getting a phone call.

Yeah.

And that all of a sudden took me out of it. I was like, I'm not gonna make it. And I like kind of panicked, pulled my parachute, ended up landing in some someone's backyard somewhere in the middle of France. And like, I bailed and I survived, and I also did not do it very gracefully. Like, I let— I let in information that dysregulated me and, yeah, constriction occurred, and then I had to bail. So yeah, safety, safety, like, that kind of just brings it back to this point where like I've learned safety is an idea that we use to feel safe, but there's— it can bring us into contact with reality and it can take us out of contact with reality, right? Like, if I'm, if I'm standing at an exit point and I want to feel safe so that I jump, like, let's say that I really want to feel safe and make this jump because I'm with a group of people and I don't want them to have to climb down this mountain with me that we just climbed up, and I don't want them to have to wait by the car while I climb down. So I'm more afraid of disappointing people and not being seen than I am of the jump, then I might just dissociate myself from some of the risks of the jump so that I reach this point where I'm like, aha, okay, I'm safe. Right, right, right.

Yeah. So on that for a second, what— how— so I would assume it's really important when when you're on that, the base that you're jumping off of, so to speak, that you know which one you're doing? Like, how do you know when you are using the idea of safety to detach from reality, and when do you know when you're using that sense of safety to be more in contact with your reality? Because it seems like with BASE jumping, more in contact with reality is good.

Yeah.

With reality in this moment is good. Yeah. How do you distinguish?

Yeah, that's a good question. Um, a lot, something that we've said a lot in the, in the sport, and this comes from other places too, is that the, the other side of the coin of fear is excitement. And if I'm, if I'm feeling a grounded level of excitement and anticipation, and I feel like my body is amped in such a way that is like metabolically prepared for what I'm about to do. And I feel that I'm in flow and I feel like flow is accessible to me.

Yeah.

And I'm also continuing— I'm not just reaching that state because I'm closing, putting on the blinders. I'm reaching that state because I'm welcoming any red flags that there might be. And yeah, just you're not to be found. Everything feels Right. So there's a certain kind of grounded excitement that occurs there.

Grounded excitement. It also sounds like if you notice any defensiveness in your system, that's a red flag.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Defensiveness in the system, or just what, what makes me not want to talk about the wind conditions over that ridge over there? Like, yes, what's making me focus on, like, what's making me focus on that it's a nice bright sunny day and not on that I'm really tired and we were out late partying last night and I'm You know, I'm not really feeling on it right now.

Well, the amazing thing is, is this is such a— this is such a metaphor for business, right? It's like the things that we don't talk about, which usually get us in trouble, though they're kind of in the side of our mind, like something's not happening right, right there. But let's not pay attention to it.

Yeah. Yeah. You imagine in a boardroom once everybody— if there's a— if there's a risk and you're assessing the risk, and nobody in the room is willing to actually feel through the consequence of taking, you know, taking a wrong action in that risk, or the consequence of the action you may have to take may be more difficult. You may not want to lay people off. You may not want to lay off somebody that you have a personal attachment or relationship to. And since you're not willing to look at that, you're far more likely to be like, oh, here's a story about how it's safe. Yeah, you know, we're actually going to be fine because XYZ, rather than really seeing the, the deeper reality. Yeah, it's been a conversation around the BASE jumping community for a long time of people— people will start to identify as like, oh, I'm a safe jumper, that person's not a safe jumper, or this is a safe kind of jump and that's not a safe kind of jumper. Is this jump safe for a beginner jumper like me? Or right Like, the answer is no to all of those things, but, but the answer is like, well, what are the risks? And how, how do you as an organism interact with your environment given those conditions? And do you have the experience? Does your body have the experience? Does your body, when you're standing on the edge of this cliff and you're about to jump, does your body have enough history of similar situations that it's like, yeah, we got this. I know what to do. It's like jumping into a swimming pool. And if not, then that shows up in the somatic experience. And you'd ask like what it feels like. And I spoke about grounded excitement.

Yeah.

Another one is ungrounded excitement. You know, if you're really excited, but there's like that excitement is sort of covering up a little bit of anxiety and you're not letting that anxiety move through and integrate into your excitement, then you're going to find yourself a little bit bouncy. And then there's another, another way that can look is just straight anxiety. Yeah. And another way that can look is anxiety funneling through to anger. You know, sometimes people get angry at an exit point if they're, if they're scared or they'll, they'll, they'll like triple gear check someone else and like be super sure that, you know, the, the least experienced jumper on the load is safe. Yeah. There's all, there's all kinds of ways that it comes out, but if you're They're all a form of not being grounded in yourself.

Fascinating. And how much has this applied to your business? Like, you're in a room with the people running your business with you. How much does that feel like sitting at an entry point? How much are you monitoring your body the same way? How much are you—

Interestingly, my business is fully remote. So sitting in a room is an experience that I rarely get with my team. So a lot, a lot of my time with my business is actually spent sitting with myself and deciding what to do next, which might be calling a meeting. It might be, uh, I might be doing some strategy. It might be just getting some work done. And if I'm with a, if I'm with a team and we're talking, yeah, it's the same thing. Um, I find that for myself, one way that I will leave the present moment, leave my, leave myself, will be to find something to get excited about. Like, oh yeah, the numbers are scary, the economy just tanked, everything's a mess, and look at all this opportunity out there. And looking at the opportunity is a wonderful thing to do, and clinging to the opportunity, grasping for it, there's a, there's a difference, there's a different feeling in, right?

Yeah, not grounded. And not grounded excitement is what it's here, it sounds like.

Yeah, yeah.

And so that gives you the same signal Okay, that informs whether I'm gonna jump or not jump or.

Yeah, yeah, and it really relates back to something that we've talked about before, which is it's about the inner security. The more dependent you are on external security, then the more internally insecure you're gonna feel. Let's say I'm standing on a cliff and I'm about to jump and there's, you know, something that needs to happen performance-wise, something that I need to execute. And I imagine jumping, and I'm visualizing this, and I might visualize myself throwing the wrong axis of rotation. Like, I might visualize myself failing to get my wingsuit flying. I might visualize myself failing to outfly a certain ledge. Allowing myself to feel those possible outcomes as I'm preparing to do something, allowing myself to feel what it would be like to have that occur and recover from it, have that occur and not recover from it, from it, have that occur and have that last, oh shit, moment before impact. And just having all of that, like all of that possibility moving through my body and integrating is something that allows me to, when I actually make the jump, if something goes a little bit awry, I know like my, my body knows what to do. Uh, an example is walking on a, walking on a slackline. If you guys, if you, if anyone listen, listening to this has ever seen people walk a slackline, it's like this, uh, 1-inch piece of webbing that can be tied between two trees, or it can be, you know, set up between two cliffs, uh, like 1,000 feet in the air. And one of the things that I love to say about learning to slackline is that it's actually the art of learning to fall off. When you first stand on the thing, you feel so insecure, your legs just wiggle and shudder, and you fall right off. And you're like, how am I ever going to be able to walk this thing? The line is not insecure at all. The line is just perfectly stable. The only insecurity that's being brought into the system is what you're bringing to it. It's your muscles overcorrecting. It's your top-down trying to think your way through it. And initially, yeah, you're gonna fall, but the more, the more you do it, yeah, the more internal stability you develop, and then the less overcorrecting your legs need to do. And then you find that the balance is just a natural— there's just a natural point of balance on the line. The line wants to balance, your body wants to balance, and it will just do it. And that's when you start getting to the point where you can walk across, you know, mile-long lines. I haven't done that. Several of my friends have, and people just see it and they're like, this is amazing. How do you do it? And it's like, that's a really good metaphor for the internal security. That the more internal security you develop, and this can occur in physical reality, could occur in your social reality or business, the more secure in yourself you are, the less you need any, any specific external conditions to be any certain way, and the more you'll be able to remain in flow through whatever conditions end up occurring.

Yeah, so what's interesting to me is there's somebody listening to this can be like, okay, I have to learn to be balanced so that I can be secure, which is in itself an overcorrection and a lack of security. And, and they might have missed the point of what you're saying here, which is learning to be secure is learning to fall. And yeah, what is like a real story in slackline? Obviously you've fallen a million times, but what's a real story of it, like in business or in relationships or in Um, even in, in BASE jumping where a fall has really taught you how to be secure.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Let me think about that one for a moment. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. In 2009, I was in South Africa and this was sort of a long journey. I had broken my arm skiing in Utah and then continued to go on an Africa trip anyway, even though I had a broken arm. I was in Zambia with a friend and then I re-broke the arm doing some like refugee smuggling on motorcycles and having a crash. And then I got the news that my dad had lost his job and he lost his health insurance and I had like a couple hundred bucks and I was doing some freelance work online, web work that wasn't particularly consistent. And so I had like a couple hundred bucks and a broken arm and no health insurance. And I was like, okay, what am I going to do? So I went to South Africa, took a bus down to Cape Town. They've got good medical care there. And I was like, I'm just going to figure things out from South Africa and get some medical care. So I did that for a while and I kind of sank into the city. I really loved it. I was there for about a month or so. And then I went to go check my bank account, pull out some money from the ATM, and it was empty. I was like, What? And I looked and the exchange rate had actually halved almost in like the month or two that I had been there, and I hadn't checked it. And so I was suddenly out of money, and I didn't know where my next money was coming from, and I was in this foreign country. Luckily, I'd already paid my rent for like for that week, so I had a place to stay. And I was just like, okay, well, I've got like nothing. I have no idea what I'm gonna do. So I just started walking around to different like bars and businesses on, uh, it was called Long Street, which is the main kind of thoroughfare in Cape Town. And I just started writing down my name and phone number on napkins. And I walked into businesses and I was like, hey, I'm a web developer. Y'all's websites look like they could use a little bit of work. I'd love to, you know, help you out. And, um, I ended up getting one phone call from that. It didn't turn out to be the best client, but they're just like, That was the process where I was like, I was out of money. And, and I still refer to that moment now where like, you know what, if I actually lost fully everything, it would, it would suck. I— there's a lot, there's a lot that I love and that I'm attached to about like material possessions and, you know, access to financial resources that I've had in my life. And I also know that I can go back and just write down my name on name and phone number on napkins and do, do something from absolute scratch in a brand new place, in a brand new environment all over again.

Yeah.

Yeah. And that's where I say, like, walking the slack line, you end up learning some internal stability that, like, you, you build this experience over the course of your life.

Yeah.

And like, it's true that, like, a newborn baby doesn't have— like, their, their body has a biological stability, it has instincts. And it's also not going to successfully take care of itself. And then over time, we do, we do get our feet under us. And this is one of the things where the process of letting go of limiting beliefs— our identity lags behind our actual growth. And the more, the more that we see that, the more that we see that there actually has always been an internal security and an internal stability. And that's the kind of internal stability that might make us be like, hey, let me try something new, like walking a slackline or starting a business. And often, often something happens that, that we forget that we have that innate, innate security and stability, that we have the capacity to assess reality wherever we're at and take steps.

Awesome. Well, thanks for sharing a bit of your life with us. I really appreciate it, and I love your perspective on safety. It's really wonderful. Thanks for sharing everything.

Yeah, thank you. Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe and rate us in your podcast app. We'd love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions or comments. You can reach out to us, join our newsletter, or check out our courses at artofaccomplishment.com.