What To Do About Imposter Syndrome

I remember one time I got a deal to go do a BASE jumping commercial in Switzerland, except I'd literally never been to the place. I literally didn't know anything about it. And so when I showed up to organize the shoot, I avoided contacting the people who were the most experienced and most skilled who could help me because I would have felt like an imposter.

We are all imposters. In fact, if you're doing anything meaningful at all, If you're doing anything that you don't know about completely, you're to some degree an imposter.

Looking back on it, it's just like, wow, what would it have been like if I just showed up and I was like, yep, I have literally never done this before.

I think there's something deeper going on with imposter syndrome.

This time on The Art of Accomplishment, we are talking about the imposter syndrome and how all of us are imposters. And why that's not a problem. We're going to talk about what to do about that and how you can find the confidence in simply knowing and being yourself. So we're like 140-something episodes now after 5 years. Oh wow.

Is that true?

Yeah, yeah, it's just over 5 years. We started in like May 2020.

Wow.

Yeah. Wow. I still remember recording the very first episode and feeling like a total impostor. I just felt like I didn't know everything. Who am I to talk about personal development and growth and like CEO coaching when I was so new to this kind of work?

Yeah.

And it's funny that I still don't feel like I know everything, but I just don't have to. Yeah, I don't feel like I need to know everything. And I don't feel like an imposter.

Yeah, I mean, you're talking about something that's really important about imposter syndrome in general, which is that we are all imposters. Meaning I don't know exactly what I'm doing.

I—

you don't know exactly what you're doing. Nobody knows exactly what you're doing. In fact, if you're doing anything meaningful at all, if you're doing anything that you don't know about completely, you're to some degree an imposter.

Or on the cutting edge of anything.

Yeah, it's why imposter syndrome is so much more prevalent with high achievers, because you're actually doing stuff that you don't know, like, or you're not really particularly a high achiever unless you're actually going out and doing stuff you don't know. So there's a way in which we are all imposters. And I wanna make a distinction between that and imposter syndrome or feeling like an imposter, right? Because are you— We're all imposters. And that's true. And there's something deeply satisfying in knowing that that actually starts to evaporate imposter syndrome. Because the thing about imposter syndrome is, it's a direct sign that you're not being yourself. Imposter syndrome is saying, I'm pretending like I have to know something that I don't have to know, that I'm being somebody that I don't have to be. I have to pretend I'm competent when I don't have to be competent. Yeah, I have to be me. And Brené Brown's work on this is pretty conclusive that if you're vulnerable, and you show that you don't know everything, the feeling of being an imposter starts dropping.

There's an interesting little like mind twist in there, which is that if you feel imposter syndrome, it's correct, except you're being an imposter in a different way than you might think. You think you need to be a certain type type of confident, competent, confident, whatever that, right, uh, identity is.

Yeah.

But in reality, the fact that you feel imposter syndrome is a sign that you are trying to be something other than yourself.

Right, right, exactly. You feel like you have to be something besides you. And the thing is, just if you think about that, it, it's a massive drawback, particularly if you're a leader of a team. Because great leadership is, here's what I don't know, here's what I do know, what do you all know and don't know? How do we solve this problem that feels like the problem that we need to solve, or is the problem that we need to solve? It isn't knowing the answer. And it's bad leadership for multiple reasons. One is because you don't know the answer. You're like, and so why point everybody in that direction if you're not certain of it? But More importantly, it's you don't get alignment that way. You do not get people to say, oh, I'm gonna buy into the thing just because you said it's true. You get people to buy in when they feel like they're a part of the solution, when their wisdom is in the solution. So it's just like the thing that you think you need to be is not what you need to be. You don't need to know the answers. You don't need to know where to go next. You don't need to have all the solutions and you don't need to be this wise person that everybody looks up to. None of that's important to actually get the job done.

Right. I saw a study recently that said that it takes more cognitive effort to maintain a false persona and it degrades performance more than actual incompetence, which makes a lot of sense because if you believe your imposter syndrome, yeah, then you already feel all the emotional and cognitive deficits of being incompetent, whether or not you are.

Yes.

Plus on top of that, you're trying to be something else.

Yeah. The other thing is that, like, why deny that you are in— you're, you're an imposter? Like, what makes us want to deny that? If you're doing anything interesting at all, in the world that you don't know it. There's no CEO who became a CEO for the first time and wasn't an imposter. Bill Gates made up Microsoft with his team. Elon Musk made up his companies. Steve Jobs made up his companies. Like, none of them were like, ah, I know exactly how to be a CEO.

And isn't that the definition of being an entrepreneur is making shit up as you go? Yes.

I don't know if that's how Webster says it, but it damn well should. Or an artist. And an artist. He's right. And, or a teacher or any of us, any of us doing any of this stuff, like anything that's actually, that is on any cutting edge of anything, we don't know how to do it. And what makes us even want to deny that, right? And again, it's usually like some form of shame, which is why something like vulnerability really unpacks it.

Right?

Shame is often cured with connection. Connection is— vulnerability is a massive part of connection, just like what we would see in the Connection Course or anything like that.

So I'd love to just go into a couple more examples. Yeah, because there's different ways that imposter syndrome shows up. I think a lot of people are familiar with being— feeling like an imposter in your job or your career. CEOs, of course, feel this. What are some other ways that this shows up for everyday people?

I think imposter syndrome is usually only like— I haven't— I've never heard anybody— maybe it's there if you have this— I feel like an imposter being a wife. You know, I hear people say, and this is an interesting thing, they say something like, I don't feel like a good mom, or I feel like a good mom, or I feel like I'd be a better mom. But I've never heard anybody say, I feel like total imposter syndrome with being a mom. Hmm. And so the reason I think that this is the case is that, that the— a lot of the imposter syndrome is about people who learned in early life that they are— because they have done something of value, they're worthy, they're lovable because they're doing something that's valuable according to certain metrics of value.

Being a mom is incredibly valuable.

Yeah, absolutely. But it's like meaning productive value, meaning Economically valued. Or A's or whatever. It's like there's some way in which you are as good as your performance. And so imposter syndrome seems to only really go around with things that are performance-based. Like maybe, maybe it's not a job. Maybe it's the head of an activist movement, or maybe it's—

Olympic gold medalist.

Olympic gold medalist.

Silver medalist. Silver medalist. Yeah, yeah. Imposter.

You remember that story? It was a female swimmer in the Olympics team. And she was— I was listening to her with this, like, deep imposter syndrome. And the question was like, is she going to be a gold, silver, or bronze medalist in the Olympics? It's like, well, like, how? Why? Like, how? How on earth can you be an imposter if that's the question? You're just the best or second best or the third best. And she ended up being a silver medalist. And I was just like, I was so dumbfounded that this like sense of doubt, this sense of like she had to be the number one thing to not be an imposter. And granted, if she would have gotten it, she probably still would have felt like an imposter because she didn't win every practice or any, you know, every single race that she swam.

Right?

So really what's happening for people who are experiencing the imposter syndrome is that it's all about, oh, I need to be of value. I need to produce so that I can get love. And that's really, I think, one of the things, and the shame of that, the shame that I am who I am isn't just good enough, is the thing that's really propelling a lot of the imposter syndrome.

Yeah, and the effects around it can be kind of hilarious. I remember one time I got a deal to go do a BASE jumping commercial in Switzerland. And it was my first time even going to Switzerland to this like big mecca of BASE jumping. And so I got this whole thing funded. We had a helicopter with a camera on it and all this like accoutrement and, high production, except I'd literally never been to the place. I literally didn't know anything about it. And so when I showed up to organize the shoot, I avoided contacting the people who were the most experienced and most skilled who could help me because I would have felt like an imposter. And so I, like, the way that I organized the thing was trying to kind of hide it.

Right. Which makes you more and more feel more and more like an imposter. The more you're hiding yourself, the more you're faking it, the more of an imposter you feel like you are. You are. Right, right.

And the production value suffered. It was still fun. We got to do it. But looking back on it, it's just like, wow, what would it have been like if I just showed up and I was like, yep, I have literally never done this before. And that's, this particular thing we're doing is new to me.

Yeah.

And I'm gonna do it.

Yeah. And I'm gonna ask for all the help that I can get.

Yeah.

Which is what CEOs who do not have that sense of deep shame, who do not feel like they have to be of value to be worthy, are more likely to do. They're okay admitting the vulnerability, which of course takes away the imposter syndrome. But I think there's something deeper going on with imposter syndrome, which is in imposter syndrome, what I notice is that it is doubt. There is like a doubt of self. But internally what's happening is people saying, well, I'm not gonna be arrogant, right? I'm not gonna be so arrogant as to think that I know everything like those other people. I'm going to, So on one level, arrogance is bad. And then doubt is kind of running the show. But the thing about doubt is that doubt is a whole flurry of thoughts about me. I'm not good enough. I don't know, maybe I'm gonna fail. It's I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I. That's what doubt is. Yeah. Right. And the cool thing about that is that there's this definition that says humility isn't thinking less of yourself, it's thinking about yourself less, which means arrogance is thinking about yourself more.

Mm-hmm.

And the cool way that you get out of imposter syndrome, besides being vulnerable, is to actually be of service to others, to open up your heart. So there's this great saying that says doubt is a sin of the heart. Which basically means that if you open your heart, if you start thinking, how do I be of service? How do I love more completely in this moment? That the doubt can't exist in that environment, and therefore the imposter syndrome can't exist, which is fascinating. And so just to make this even more complicated, but then I'll smooth it all out, or at least I hopefully will smooth it all out. To make this even more complicated is What we're looking for when we are, when we have imposter syndrome is actually a feeling of empowerment. It's like, oh, I am capable. I do not have to particularly worry. I'm safe. I am, I know that who I am is safe.

Yeah, I don't have to fear the consequences of not living up to a certain image or standard.

Right, I'm not bad by my nature. I'm good by my nature and I'm basically safe. And when humans are like that, and you can think about any human you know who feels deeply safe being themselves for who they are, their nature starts coming out. And that nature is to be of service.

Hmm.

Their nature is to, to lead with an open heart, is to be there for other people, not in a way to try to make them happy, but just because I'm not constantly thinking about how do I keep myself safe. So, so now take that into imposter syndrome for a second. First of all, people are telling themselves that they don't want to be arrogant, which is why they justify the imposter syndrome. But thinking about yourself all the time is arrogant. And the way to get out of it is to actually be of service to others because that creates that sense of empowerment. In you, or create that sense of empowering you, which gives you that service, that open-heartedness.

And of course, without leaving yourself, not like leaving yourself to be of service to others.

Of course. In a way, because no, it has to be in a form of empowerment.

Yeah, you could be of service to others from a sense of how you're supposed to be and be the—

or to keep yourself safe. I'm here for you because if then you'll be good to me, then you'll like me as a leader. Yeah, no. So it really has to come from, oh, an open-hearted place of, oh, I am here. Like, how do I do my job with an open heart? And if you ask yourself that question, it's a simple question. Imposter syndrome comes up and say, how do I do this job with an open heart? The imposter syndrome just can't exist in it because it puts you into the act of service. It puts you into humility because you think about yourself less, because you're in a place where you're in communion with other people.

Now, this seems like the opposite track to the common track of, say, building confidence. Like, how, how would you relate this to building confidence?

Well, I think it does build confidence, which is interesting. So, but there is like, oh, The idea is that I'm going to build skills to get to confidence. And we know studies show that building skills is not as effective as being vulnerable.

Yeah.

And opening your heart is a form of that vulnerability. Doing it with an open heart is a form of that vulnerability. Asking, oh, how do I be of service in this, instead of how do I protect myself, is a form of vulnerability. And we know that vulnerability actions cure the feeling of imposter syndrome way quicker than any level of competency. Yeah, right. As well as a strong sense of self. Not a strong sense of self like, I know who I am, but is like to actually see yourself for what you are, like what you are essentially, what, what you've always been from the moment you were born till now, to see your essence to identify with that essence also just totally makes the experience of imposter syndrome go away. And that's— that was my experience too. When I moved through that search for self and I was— and I finally ran upon it, then the more I ran upon it, I think is more accurately said, the idea of imposter syndrome just couldn't even exist in my system anymore. I mean, I remember one of them, it happened way before I started coaching. And I remember one of my first public coaching sessions, everything went fucking wrong. I had somebody there who was like deeply into the resistance thing and wanted a lot of attention and like, it just went horribly wrong. Like it was, I mean, I had friends there and they were like, "You maybe shouldn't do this for a living." And like all of that crap happened. And first of all, what I would say is if I bought into the imposter syndrome at that point, I wouldn't be doing this right now. So that means like if you're buying into your imposter syndrome and trying to be somebody that you're not being, that you're not, that if you're buying into your imposter syndrome and not just showing up saying, this is what I know, this is what I don't know, then you're gonna like not give your gift to the world. I would not be giving my gift to the world. That's one piece. But the second piece to it is, is that there was nothing in me at that moment that felt like I was an imposter. I was just like, bad shot. There's things for me to learn. What do I do? I started talking to people like, what are your tricks in this kind of situation? I started to learn. I started to feel into what that was. I felt the grief of that experience, but never was I thinking, oh, I'm an imposter here. Right. And it's because my sense of self was like, I couldn't particularly question it anymore because that the, the, the question of what I am essentially and identifying with that had, it is, was there. And I've noticed that generally with everybody who's gone through that process of really investigating what am I and how do I be deeply authentic, they do not experience imposter syndrome.

And maybe some, but like, it's like maybe a little bit, but not even close to the levels that they have Yeah, and also from kind of going back to the confidence building versus just like seeing yourself, if you looked at that situation through a confidence building lens, it would've looked like you just destroyed all your confidence. Like I did an Ignite talk a couple years ago and like paused right near the end, like right beginning of my last slide, just like lost it for a second and then looked out into the crowd felt my friends there supporting me and then just continued. And internally I could have been like, well, that was a really unconfident moment. But the feedback that I got from people coming up after was like, wow, you just did exactly what you were talking about on the stage in real time in front of us. And that was beautiful. Right.

Like feeling into the fear, I think is what you were talking about too, right?

Right, right. Feeling into the fear. Yeah. And then, and in that moment I was like, oh yes, actually Being seen in that way, them seeing me helped me see myself. And that was what built confidence. Confidence being a state of being, a way of being, not being a skill that you build.

Well, yeah, you can't be, you can't build confidence being somebody who you aren't.

Yeah, which means confidence is not a skill. Confidence is how connected to yourself you are as you are doing what you're doing.

Yeah, that's a cool way to look at it. I hadn't thought about it that way. Right. Yeah, that's the interesting thing. It's very like if you're in imposter syndrome, if you're in imposter syndrome and you're faking it and you're trying to pretend you're competent and you're not being vulnerable and you're not being yourself, then you are being an imposter. Then you are being an imposter. But you're also not able to build confidence as quickly because you're not being you. Like, the only way to be confident in yourself is to be yourself. I'm gonna pretend to be somebody else, and now I'm confident being somebody else? No, like, it doesn't, it doesn't work like that. So that's the other, like, incredibly interesting thing about it. So, but the thing that I'm noticing right now in my mind is I'm thinking about somebody who has imposter syndrome and they're listening to this.

Yeah.

And they can listen to this all in a way to build the shame in their system, for sure, which is only going to hurt their imposter syndrome. It's only going to increase their imposter syndrome.

Yeah.

They could look at it like, oh, there's a place that I could go to where I can understand myself, where I can't be an imposter anymore. Or I, like, if I was only like Brett, and I could just like be vulnerable for that moment, then I wouldn't feel like an imposter anymore. And all of that is building shame, which is what the imposter syndrome is based in. And so there's no way that that kind of thing, which is all, I have to do X, Y, and Z to be loved, I have to perform to be loved.

Yeah.

And the whole way to stop imposter syndrome is to fly in the face of I have to perform to be loved. I can be vulnerable, I cannot know, I can be in the question, I can be confused.

Yeah. So in that way, imposter syndrome is sort of the hungry ghost of validation or competence. It's like you're not letting it all the way in. You're not letting in the ways that you are competent. You're not letting yourself be seen. You're not seeing yourself, which of course is going to make you crave some form of being seen. But if all of the way you're being seen is accruing towards an identity of something you feel isn't really you, yeah, then it never works. Then it never lands.

Yeah.

So let's go a little bit more deeply into where the imposter syndrome comes from.

Yeah. So You know, a lot of us, I think, were, I'll call it good jobbed as a kid, but some of us never got the good job who got good jobbed. But basically it is some version of you need to get good grades to get my love. You need to perform. You need to do the dishes. You need to do X, Y, and Z for me to give you love and approval. So the first thing is that you weren't taught how to give it to yourself. You weren't taught. You know, when we're like, if we're working with our kids, especially when they were younger and they did a painting, we weren't like, "Good job!" We said, "Oh, how did that feel to paint that painting?" So that they could reflect, so they could see their own experience and relate to their own experience. If they were doomscrolling, it'd be like, "Hey, how do you feel doomscrolling? Like, what's going on in your system? What does that feel like?" What makes you want to feel that way? It wasn't bad job, right? Right. You won't get loved if you're doom scrolling. So basically, that creates a lot of high achievers, that creates a lot of you're wrong just as you are, you have to earn something to be lovable. And that creates a lot of imposter syndrome, which is why so many high achievers have imposter syndrome. And also because they're doing stuff that they don't know about, and nor could they, should they. And so there's always the rationale. You can always think you're an imposter, right, if you don't know everything. And if you're doing something— and if you're doing something important, you don't know everything.

Cool. So if you want your kids to grow up and do really cool, high-achieving stuff, just give them some conditional validation.

That's one way. Yeah, that's one way to do it. It does work. Yeah, it does work if they don't become drug addicts. Yeah, it's a way. I noticed that humans want to achieve, they want to grow, they want to learn, they're curious in their own. And I noticed things like imposter syndrome only slows them down. Shame only slows down the process. And it makes it just a lot more complicated. It's a lot more fight. And they feel like they have to abandon themselves to get there.

Which might mean a life where somebody becomes really high achieving, off of the axis of what they ever really wanted.

Correct.

And then crisis.

Typically. Yeah. Yeah, so typically very, very high achieving. Once I have my $10 million, I'm gonna finally, you know, retire. Maybe if I'm lucky I get it or maybe I don't and I'm 65 and I retire and I'm like, yeah, I'm fricking miserable. Yeah, so if you want to raise your kids as high achieving miserable people, yay, go for it.

Yeah.

So, and, and that's very black and white. Obviously there's a lot of gray in between there, right?

And you can also be a high achiever about raising your kids, which gets meta here, right?

So generally that's the place that it comes from. It's, it's a very particular kind of shame that who you are isn't good enough unless you provide something for me.

Yeah.

And I think that this— and, and I think I, I remember studies don't quote me on this, but I remember studies that women are more likely to feel imposter syndrome than men. And I think that that's often because women are often taught that their value is being of value to others. Right? Like, oof.

Yeah.

Right. So if I think about the way many boys and girls, especially in upper middle class white society, are raised, You know, the boys are often not told that their job is to take care of other people as much as the girls are. To be of value is where you're gonna get your love.

Or it may show up as they're being told that they need to impact the world in some way, or they need to be of service to their, they need to be able to provide for their family. That's one way. Yeah. Yeah.

We both get it. Imposter syndrome happens in both places. So it's, this isn't like, one person, one group is special. But just in our society, I think women get a little bit more of, you're valuable because you're of service to others.

So how do we unravel this? What do we do with all this information?

Yeah, so if you have imposter syndrome, first go, yep, I'm an imposter.

I'm an imposter.

Love that. Be vulnerable, be vulnerable by being of service, be vulnerable, not service of like, I'm trying to make other people happy service. Service of like open-hearted service. How do I have an open heart in the face of the doubt?

Right?

Maybe you're an imposter. Maybe people think you're gonna be imposter, but what does that have to do with leading the people that you're in charge of?

Right.

What does that have to do with caring for the people that you're in charge of? What does that have to do with living your life's purpose? So focusing not on yourself, but focusing on an openheartedness is gonna have a, not the openheartedness that is codependent, that I have to be of value to other people, but the openheartedness, which is, oh, right, if I act from love, if I think about what's best for everybody, including myself, then that is an act of vulnerability that will also start changing the way that imposter syndrome shows up or maybe gets rid of it altogether.

Yeah.

And then the last is a deep exploration into who you are as a person. Like, what are you essentially? A deep exploration there will also start to eliminate imposter syndrome.

I think there's also another piece here, which is acknowledging and owning the projection in it. Like, if somebody hired me You know, I got hired to do a BASE jumping commercial. And for me to feel like I'm an imposter there, I have to also assume that the person who hired me doesn't know what they're doing. And so I have to project that other people are imposters to interact with me and to trust me and like, depend on me.

Yeah, yeah. Right, yeah.

So seeing through that is another, Another great way, right?

If you're an imposter, then the person who hired you is an imposter. Yeah. And that whole—

whoever hired them. Yeah.

And who hired them. Yeah. So I think that the— so those are all different ways to work with it. I think that this is something that, like I said, like when we do the Council, which is the thing that we do for business people, and, and it's that year-long program for them, what I notice is that imposter syndrome is a really, like, because it's high achievers, it's, it's very prevalent. And the thing that I notice in, and I've seen this at least a dozen times now, when people start to undo the imposter syndrome, high achievers become really high achievers. But sometimes there's a little bit of a detour. So it's like, it's like, and so don't be surprised if this detour happens. So it's like, I'm highly achieving, I'm doing a whole bunch of stuff, and then I really understand who I am and I operate from an open heart, I lead from love. And all of a sudden, I might be doing something different.

Yeah. And anyone who's interested in finding out about the council, there's a leadership newsletter that you can sign up for on our website.

Yeah, thanks for saying that. And so that's like the little detour or pivot. And then super high achieving stuff happens. Like, yeah, their capacity to get things done increases so much because they're not in doubt all the time. And they're not thinking about themselves all the time. They're thinking about their project. They're thinking about the people who work for them.

So you could be doing like pretty good or even really good at being someone else for a while.

Yeah.

Or you can be world-class at being yourself, right?

Yeah. Only you can be you. Like, that's the only place you're not an imposter, by the way, right?

Yeah.

When you're being yourself. Everything else, you are being an imposter. So of course it feels like you're being an imposter.

And there's nothing wrong with that. We learn that as a strategy, as a technique, keeps us safe for a while. There's benefits to it.

Yeah. But if you're listening to this, it's no longer paying off. If you've gotten this far into the podcast, your imposter thing is definitely not paying off anymore.

You're not long for this world.

And I think the last thing I'd really wanna say about it is just that, you know, The gift of the imposter syndrome, if you actually start moving from vulnerability, if you actually start being the kind of leader who allows people to see that you don't know everything, if you act with that level of authenticity, you get the reward that you always wanted to get as a kid that you thought you had to earn. You get the reward of, oh, I'm, I'm, I'm good. Like, here I am and I'm not perfect and I don't know everything and I don't have to produce to understand that generally I'm just— I'm good, which is what you wanted as a kid. And so the cool thing about imposter syndrome is that it points directly towards the path to getting the thing that you always wanted as a kid that you couldn't get, that you used, employed all these bad strategies to get.

So once again, it's absolutely correct. And your strategies of trying to get out of it are not effective. Yeah. Yeah. But it is a scent you can follow home.

Yeah.

Exactly. Beautiful.

Cool.

Yeah. Thank you, Joe.

What a pleasure, Brett. Good to be with you as always.

Yeah, you too. All right. Thanks again for listening to The Art of Accomplishment. This episode is hosted by myself, Brett Kistler, and Joe Hudson. Our producer is Monique Kelly, and this episode was edited by Reasonable Volume. And if you want a free taste of the business stuff that we do with the council, just check out our free leadership newsletter. You can sign up for that on our website, Art of Accomplishment. Accomplishment.com. If you like this episode, please share it with a friend, post it on social media. You can find us on X at Art of Accomplishment. You can find us on YouTube at Art of Accomplishment. And if you're listening to this in audio, notice that you can find us on video as well on Spotify and YouTube. Take care, till next time.

Join us next time where we're going to have Johannes Langgraf join us to talk about how he created a company really doing that inner work, doing the inner spiritual work, as well as how he's created a culture that is changing at the pace of AI.