What's So Scary About Boundaries?

It's scary if your boundary is sort of accepted and the person loves you in your boundary, because then that means that your— the way that you have modeled the world in the past has to now change.

Yes.

And that means you have to change.

Welcome to The Art of Accomplishment, where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease. Hey, welcome back to the show. Today we're going to try something a little bit different. We've been getting a lot of questions from the community on Circle and direct messages about boundaries. So today my nesting partner Alexa is going to interview Joe with a number of questions that come up commonly around boundaries.

So hi, Joe.

Hey, how are you, Alexa?

I'm great.

Good. Do we want to tell everybody who you are and what makes you— what what makes us have a podcast with you?

Uh, sure.

It'd be good for me to know anyway.

Okay, well, I'm Alexa Anderson. For about the last decade, I've been doing design research and strategy, so helping my clients, mostly big corporate clients and teams of big corporations, to sort of ask better questions and make big decisions. Since pandemic, I'm pivoting to doing coaching. Also, I've worked with you, Joe, and that's been really amazing. And I would consider myself to be part of a community of people who are doing this kind of work and trying to live into some of these ways of being a person in the world.

I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you'll be asking questions. I understand that the questions are around boundaries today.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

What made you want to ask me questions around boundaries? What was the cause of it?

I don't feel like I chose this topic, but I do feel like—

Oh, you didn't?

I don't. Oh, wow.

Well, let's start there. Do you have a boundary around that? Do you want to talk about something else? What would your choice be?

No, I do think this is an exciting topic, and I do think that the topics sort of like chose us or chose the podcast.

All right, cool.

I know that people from the last class really had some open questions about boundaries and had been hoping that y'all would do a podcast about boundaries.

Okay, cool. Yeah, we've done one, so this is— this would be a follow-up. It's great. I think we've done one. We— have we done one? Have you listened to one?

I don't remember there being one, and I'm pretty sure I've listened to all of them.

Okay. Wow, good to know.

I think boundaries come up sometimes in a lot of things you talk about, but I don't think you've done a podcast all about boundaries before.

All right, well, fantastic. Let's do it. I love it, and I love the idea. So it was something that's come out of a lot of you being a part of the group. You've seen the group wanting to do it and talk about it, and there being a lack of it in the work so far. So I'm really grateful. That you're paying attention like that and that you're letting it choose you and you're listening that way. Thanks.

Thanks, Joe.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So where do you wanna start?

Well, I do think you have a really interesting definition of boundaries.

Yeah.

And I think it's a little bit different than how a lot of people think about it. So do you wanna start by just telling us how you think about boundaries?

Yeah. Boundaries that are super effective, both for you and for the people you're with, are effective because they're not part of the power dynamic. They're not part of like a fear dynamic where somebody's trying to get control over another person. A boundary, when it's used optimally, increases your capacity to love somebody, the person who you're drawing the boundary with, and it empowers you so that you see that it's your own It's your own choice, that you're in choice and you get to make that choice. And so the way that I do that is if you think about a boundary that you wanna draw with somebody, which is, it does two things. One, if you, when you think about saying it to them, it immediately allows you to love them more deeply.

Just the saying it.

Just the saying it, no matter what their reaction is. Maybe their reaction is fuck you, and maybe their reaction is, oh, thank God you said that. It doesn't matter. Whatever it is, when you say it, your capacity to love them has increased. And then the second thing a good boundary does is it doesn't tell them what to do. It tells them what you are going to do. So it's never about controlling of the other person. So, so let's say this is one that comes up a lot for people who are dealing with any kind of abuse in their life. Often a really great boundary there is, hey, if you're gonna yell at me, I'm gonna ask you to stop yelling at me. If you continue to yell at me, I'm gonna leave. And 30 minutes later I'll give you a call, and if you're ready to talk again without yelling at me, I'm happy to re-engage. That would be an example of a boundary. So it's not asking them to do anything any differently, but you're immediately able to love them because— more because you're not accepting some sort of behavior that's belittling to you. It's really hard to love something that can dominate you. It does dominate you. So it's an incredibly difficult thing. And if you think about boundaries in love, there's no iconic figure of love, there's no paragon of love that isn't really strongly boundaried, whether that's like a great mom or Martin Luther King or Mother Teresa. All of these people were incredibly boundaried. So boundaries are part of what makes a loving relationship. It creates trust.

I really like that definition. Boundaries that make more room for love.

Yeah, it can't exist without it. And I think the thing that makes that so hard for people to grab hold of is that love is often conflated with caretaking. I know we did a podcast on caretaking, but love is often conflated, meaning like loving is conflated with being nice. Loving is being, you know, making sure the other person doesn't get mad, I think is actually what it is. It's like, oh, if I love them, then they can't be mad. And actually compassion can really fucking piss people off. You can be very compassionate with somebody and they can get really, really upset with that. That's what makes it compassionate. It means that you're willing to take their anger because it's what's right for them. Like, not, it's not what makes it compassionate, but that is like the, the harder compassion to have is to suffer for the compassion or apparently suffer for the compassion. It's not actually ever suffering, but it really feels like you're gonna when you're thinking about doing it.

Huh. Um, it strikes me that There's this way you said that, like, the compassionate thing is that you're willing to take their anger. I think I don't disagree, but the way I would say it is something like, the compassionate thing is being willing to accept their anger.

Yeah, that's a better way to say it. I would say most accurately probably is to love their anger. You might not take it, and you might tell them that they need to leave, but you can be in love with their anger. That it doesn't— you're not avoiding it. Yeah, yeah, nice catch.

Well, so the other thing that's coming up for me is I think that there is a, like, a really big mental changeover that happens when people understand— it's just like several of the building blocks you're referring to— and then change from being a person who considers the right thing to do in a relationship to be, you know, this like making sure the other person isn't mad kind of niceness, right?

Yeah.

To being the kind of person who's like, the really compassionate thing to do here is to say what's real for me, even if that makes them upset.

Making them not upset would be things like walking on eggshells, uh, caretaking them, um, doing things for them that build resentment for you, bending what you want to because they'll be happier, et cetera. And all that does in a relationship is continue to create resentment and a sense of obligation. And then in a sexual relationship, that resentment becomes very kind of parental-child, like one's the caretaker and then the sex dies. It's like, it's a horrible loop. And so when everybody is in these horrible relationships and they're like, well, I've given everything that I can give to this person and they still don't, you know, blah, blah, blah, I've tried. And, or, you know, I don't know what I have to do to make her happy or him happy. Or it's like, be yourself. Like, and the only thing that people aren't trying is like, just be yourself, be authentic, show up as you, and don't try to change them.

I do think a trap that people fall into is feeling like, "But I authentically want them to be happy though." Right, right.

But that's not— right, that's beautifully put. So that's trying to change somebody. Like, in a relationship, the state that creates the most freedom in my system is where I can love the person unconditionally, that I don't need them to be different than what they are. And obviously that ebbs and flows to different levels of subtlety. But the— and that's why a boundary— I'm not defining a boundary as you have to do this, because that's changing them. It's just saying what you're gonna do. And if you're not capable of loving somebody for who they are, then What that really means is that you're incapable of loving that part of yourself. I really want them to be happy means I can't love my own sadness. I really want them to be, you know, more faithful to me is, it's like there's some part of yourself that can't love either and/or your desires that are outside of the relationship or the love yourself in a way that you can get what you deserve. So all of it is just this reflection. Anytime you want someone else to be different, it's a reflection of a way you can't love yourself. And this is where it gets really confusing with boundaries is that people hear that and they go, "Oh, so if I love them, then I'll accept that." No, you might not. You might be like, "I love you just the way you are. I understand that you need to have," you know, sexual relations that don't work for me, man, but they don't work for me. So if you are going to have sexual relationships in this way outside of our relationship, then I love you, but I'm not in the relationship. That's not the relationship I want. Yeah. And so it's not trying to change them. It's just being clear about how you're going to respond and being authentic and truthful to yourself in that.

Well, so that raises another question for me. Is it ever appropriate to try to change someone?

Uh, I don't— I don't— appropriate means it kind of assumes like a right or wrong. It's incredibly ineffective and it doesn't create happiness for anybody. Yeah, I mean, even in the work that I do where I'm working with somebody where apparently I'm creating transformation for people, I, I won't do it unless there's a question, and I won't impose my ideas on— if somebody wants help transforming their lives, great, help them. But to impose your idea, it's incredible hubris. It's incredible to think that like, oh, I know what's better for the person. And more specifically than that is every way that you want somebody else to change is really just a reflection of a way that you don't wanna feel, right? Because they do that thing and it makes me feel X. Right? So if it's like, if every time somebody yelled at you, you felt like a million bucks, you really wouldn't care if they yelled at you. Right? If every time somebody was late to dinner, it made you feel loved and adored, you'd be like, cool, be late to dinner. So what's really happening is that you're saying, I don't want to feel a certain way and you're making me feel it. So you're holding them emotionally responsible, which is totally disempowering to yourself, to yourself, right? And you're trying to control them, which is disempowering to them. It's just a horrible situation. And so take responsibility for your own emotions, and the best way to do that is to say, how am I going to respond?

It sounds like you're mostly exploring this in terms of interpersonal relationships, like romantic relationships, but I imagine this comes up a lot in a work context, and the traps seem similar. It's like somebody's like feeling like they really need this job, but you really want them to be different if they're gonna be on the team?

Yes. So I will say that if you look at the way that the boundaries are held, whether it's the way Martin Luther King held boundaries or a great CEO, how boundaries are held, how you hold boundaries in a work context or in a love relationship, the principles are very much the same. The thing about a work context is that at some point there is like this moment of control of like, I'm going to fire you, I'm going to let you go. Which is really not, this is what I'm going to do. It, it, I am going to fire you is what I'm going to do. But it has like, you are forcing somebody out of a situation, apparently forcing them out. Usually when people are clear about their boundaries upfront, there is no firing of anybody. They just leave. And it's really clear. And we've talked about this, Brett and I, that like the last 4, 5 people that we've let go in our company, literally I go to have the walk with them to say, "This isn't working." And they say, "It's time for me to go." It's like oddly, like disturbingly the case. I had some client recently ask me, he was like, "Is that because you're too slow letting people go?" made me think about that. But it feels like it's the right time for me. It feels like it's the right time for them. And it's because I'm constantly drawing these boundaries saying, hey, like, this is the expectation. And if this can't happen, then this is what's gonna occur. And so, and this is what I'm gonna do to respond to it. And I'm very clear about my own wants and I'm very clear about expectations. And so it usually, doesn't come down to that. But that's the unique part of the work stuff is that you can eventually say you're fired or be fired. But the thing for the person who's having the boundary drawn is it's always about the fear of a consequence that prevents somebody from drawing the boundary. And so I can't say that to my boss because they might fire me. I can't say that to my lover 'cause they might leave. I can't, right? Which is basically, I can't be myself and be accepted here is really what you're saying. Or I'm scared. And the interesting thing about that reflection is it's usually based on their projection of the way the world works. A great example of this is I get a conversation with people a lot that goes something to the effect of, I think I'm gonna quit my job. I think I'm gonna break up. And I'll say, "Well, what's wrong?" And they'll talk about it. I'm like, "Well, what if you were just yourself? Let's see what happens. So since you're gonna quit and you're gonna break up anyways, like, well, just assume that it's already lost. So why don't you just show up exactly how you wanna be at work and see what happens?" And literally 8 outta 10 times they get promoted, they get raises, their relationship turn up great. 20% of the time they get fired. They're like, "Yeah," you know, and nope, that's really not what they wanted. But 80% of the time, it was their projection of the world that they were scared of, not actually the world. And for the 20% that have gotten fired, none of them are like, "Oh shit, I got fired." What they did instead was they were like, "Oh," or, "I got broken up with," but they're like, "Oh, this is how I wanna be. That means this is the kind of company I wanna work for." Yeah. So we're scared of the consequence, but whatever the consequence is, it is a direct path to the life where we are accepted and loved for who we are.

I love that.

Yeah, I like the way I said it. I don't think I've ever said it that well.

It just feels so good and so exciting then to set boundaries, right?

Yeah, exactly. Until you actually go to set them, and then it's just— there's a real big scary moment often because So for instance, the other thing that's interesting about boundaries is that they move. So, and I think I've said this as an example. So my dad was a drinker and I started with the boundary with him of, I'm not gonna be around you. And then it was, I'm not gonna be around you when you're drinking. And then it was, I'm not gonna be around you when you're behaving in a certain way because of drinking. And those were my boundaries. And it was about me not being around him. And each one of them allowed me to love him better. But it was really important for me to have that really big strict boundary at the beginning of just, I'm not gonna be around you because I needed to convince myself that it was okay for me not to be around that person. Right? So if there's an abusive relationship, whether it's emotional or physical, The first step is that the person has to be convinced that they don't deserve it, that it's not their fault, that they are worthy of a deeper love. And that is what helps you draw the boundary, and that boundary is what confirms that. And so, but that moment is really scary to actually draw it the first time because you're still not sure if you deserve that love. Like you don't know if the world's gonna provide for you because your whole life it hasn't. And so there is this great moment of fear when you're drawing especially important big boundaries, is like this big feeling of vulnerability because you're testing to see if the world is gonna work the way that your projections say it's gonna work. And if it doesn't, then man, your whole self-definition has to bend and be reshaped. And so it's scary.

So it's actually scary either way. It's scary if your boundary is sort of accepted and the person loves you in your boundary, because then that means that the way that you have modeled the world in the past has to now change.

Yes.

And that means you have to change.

Yeah, and it also means that you have to grieve the fact that you've been living under a cage that was never fucking there.

Right.

And who you think you were and what you defined yourself as, yeah. Boundaries and apologies are some of the most effective change agents for healing transformation. 'Cause they're like direct tests about how you see the world.

Yeah, and when your model of the world changes, so many things can change. Can be really, feel really destabilizing, even though it's growthful.

And if your model of the world changes, then inevitably your model of yourself, the idea, how you limit yourself changes.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah.

So right before we did this, you said to me, there's like, really there was just one question that everybody was asking.

Yeah.

On the online, they're like, there's lots of people were asking questions about boundaries, but one, there's kind of one question. What is the one question that they're all like?

So it takes two forms. The one, the question that rose to the top was, what is the difference between a boundary and an ultimatum?

Ah, yeah.

And the other one is just, how do you know if you're setting good boundaries? Which I think are basically the same thing.

Yeah, but it's nice that they're reflected in two different ways, 'cause the second one I think we've answered pretty well. It's like you're not asking them to change and it increases your love. The not asking them to change can still feel like an ultimatum and it can still be a power over them, but not if it increases your capacity to love. And so, The ultimatum part is, it's really, when our boundaries sound like ultimatums, it means that we're really scared, that we're operating out of the fear because we're trying to control the other person in one way or another. And so there's a subtlety of it. And I think you heard it in my first example of a boundary, which was, and I'll be gone for 30 minutes and I will call you then. And if you're able to not, So what I'm doing there is I'm not abandoning the person. And so oftentimes, if you are going to stick with the, it increases your love and it's not what they're gonna do, to just completely make sure that you're not creating an ultimatum, that you're not in a power struggle, you wanna make sure that there's no abandonment in it either. And abandonment, this is a weird thing because abandonment is like, doesn't mean that you're gonna be there for them, but it does mean that they have a choice to get back into connection with you. So the choice is don't yell at me and then we can be in connection. If you say, I'm done with your yelling, I'm leaving, it's a boundary. It's not gonna increase your capacity to love them. And it can be very much in power over a situation. But if you leave that opening that says, "Hey, I will do business with you in the future if this and this and this happen," then there's a door open, there's a way for that to continue. Now, sometimes it's really necessary to not give an opening, both for your own healing or— So for instance, if I saw somebody embezzled money from me, there wouldn't be like a— and when you can show that you're honest again, I will be open and reflective. It's just I don't want to do business with anybody who stole from me. And so that's a choice I get to make and I'm going to make it. And is that an ultimatum? Absolutely. It's an ultimatum. It's not even an ultimatum. There's not even a choice. There's just like, leave or I'm leaving. And I think that's absolutely fine as well. But notice in that case, I'm not kind of trying to control them. I'm just saying this isn't a relationship I want to be a part of. So the principle, the underlying principle is the same. I'm still not trying to control another person. I might try to control them to get my money back from the embezzlement. And again, but that's not the boundary.

So I wonder, are you saying that boundaries are never a way to try to control someone or change someone.

Correct. That's right. That's a fool's errand. Yeah.

I want to ask what makes it a fool's errand?

It was the things we talked about before. The idea that it's not empowering to you and it's not empowering to them. And there's a great saying, it's like moving a mountain or changing a man. I'd rather move a mountain, it's easier. Yeah, yeah.

So there are some, some things that come up in life where— I mean, I think a work context is a really good one, or like you're on a team with someone, you have a shared project, a shared resource of some kind. Maybe you're living together in a group house. Yeah, you're both paying into the lease, and so if to leave is like very disruptive to both of your lives. How do you set boundaries in those kinds of situations that aren't ultimatums?

So give me a specific example and then we'll, we'll see if we can come up with it.

Let's try a couple of iterations of this because I'm not sure if I have come up with a good one. There was one that was on my mind earlier in this conversation that was like, in a work context, if you're like, I'm constantly triggered that you Like, something like that you're defensive, like, I can't work with your defensiveness. And that's about them. But at a certain point, if you have power to be like, we just can't work on this team together.

So in that context, there's first like kind of the view conversation before any boundary is necessary to just learn, right? It's like, okay, so I noticed that when certain things happen, you get defensive. What does that mean for you? What's triggering that? How do you see me in those moments? Like, so there's a whole bunch of conversations so you can just start to understand the defensiveness. There's also like, I've seen CEOs do this with their executive team. It's like, oh wow, you're being defensive. We've talked about that. I need you to leave the conversation until you can come back in a non-defensive way. And we'll, and we'll make decisions without you. The thing is, like, you need to leave the conversation is it's something, like I said, that you can do that at work, which is interesting. But the non-version of that is, I don't want to engage in a conversation with you. Like, if this is in a house, I don't want to engage in a conversation with you that's defensive. So I'm totally happy to reengage with you when this conversation isn't defensive. At which point they'll probably say, I'm not being defensive.

Uh-huh.

And that would be the typical response to that. And then you would say, "It feels very much like it's defensive to me right now, and I don't want to engage in that." You don't have to justify. You're not going to get into a court of law with the person. Because you get the choice to whether you're going to engage in a defensive conversation or a non-defensive, you know, that's the choice that you get to make.

Yeah. The other thing that I love about what you're saying is Like, I'm realizing that any, probably any need, want could be expressed in terms of a boundary. Yes. But that's just not like usually the best tool for every kind of interaction.

It's usually the last case scenario tool. And it usually means there's someplace like that can use some healing in you too. But sometimes the boundary is the best way to heal it. So it's an interesting paradox there. It, you know, so if someone, it's usually someplace where someone gets really triggered. So if somebody's difficult, gets defensive with me, for instance, I might ask about it. I might laugh at it. I might promote it. You know, I might be like, I'd be like, you know, with a big smile on my face, go, absolutely not. That's not true at all. That's, you know, like, and I like, and I like, because I don't really, if someone gets defensive to the most part, I don't really mind. I, I notice I get a little triggered when people are defense, defensive, if it like shuts down a group. 'Cause I notice that like when someone's defensive in a group, it shuts down the group and that'll actually get me a little bit more. But one-on-one, it doesn't. And so it's usually something in that, that like if you can't play with it, there's something in you that needs to, oh, I don't have to be around defensive people. I don't have to do that. And as soon as you know you don't have to, then the boundary immediately changes.

And becomes like more nuanced.

Yeah, like so with my dad, it was, I'm not gonna be around you. And then once I realized that, oh, I don't have to be around his drinking. But I miss my dad. I like to be around my dad. Okay, I'm gonna be around my dad, just not while he is drinking. Oh, I don't really mind that he is drinking as long as he's not being a prick. Okay. You know, but I had to learn that I could not be around his drinking. And that's why the boundary was such like a huge tool. Another example of this for me was when I was, you know, earlier on when I was, teaching and coaching, I felt like I, I held a little bit too much responsibility for other people. And so when people started to like not trust the process, I would feel like responsible to make sure that they were taken care of. I had to draw the boundary of like, oh, if you don't trust the process, then I'm not in the process with you anymore. And that's not because I don't love you, it's because the process doesn't work if there's no trust. So I'm happy to address the trust. I'm happy to have whatever conversation we need to have. But if there's no trust on your side, it would be as stupid as me continuing the process if I didn't trust that you could transform. That would be ridiculous. Like the trust needs to be there. And I had to draw that boundary with several clients to get to the point where now that boundary gets drawn so early that it never seems to get to that point anymore. Where it's just so early. It's like, "Oh, I see that there's not trust here, and I don't wanna work like that." And then they'll be like, "Oh, okay, well, this is why I don't trust you." Great, and then we're talking about it. Whereas before it was, "Okay, what do I have to do to help them?" Which just never worked.

Oh, interesting. That brings up another question that I had, and I don't know, see if you wanna go into this or not, but it was, From what you were saying earlier, I wondered, is resentment always a pointer to a boundary that's not being drawn?

Yeah, there's two ways to think about resentment. One of the ways is to say that you are trying to, it's a really good indicator that you're trying to save other people. In the fear triangle, it's like the savior holds a lot of the resentment and obligation. And what that really is is that you're trying to make your world the way you want it by saving other people, by making sure other people are happy. And so there's a lot of resentment that gets built there. And so absolutely there's a boundary that they're not drawing, right? The thing about a savior is that a savior tries to make the other person happy instead of having the boundary of, you know, this is how I wanna be around you. But to see every time you resent it as a boundary that's a boundary that needs to be drawn can be a little bit dangerous because it uses like the bazooka of the tools pretty early instead of just saying like, I don't wanna do that. You know, I don't wanna do the dishes, you know, every night I want, or I wanna do the dishes together. I would love to do the dishes with you. Right. And so There's so many places where resentment is just an indicator also of just what are the wants that you haven't expressed? What's the vision of the world that you wanna live in that you haven't expressed because you don't think you can get it? So, which is like you said, another way to say that it's like a boundary, but it might not need to be like a kablammo boundary. It can just be like a, what I really want is for us to enjoy doing the dishes together and have fun doing dishes together. Instead of, "Why aren't you doing the dishes?" You know, or, "If you don't do the dishes, then I'm not gonna do the dishes." And there's so many solutions to the problem. On the dish thing, I just, I always love this. I always think about this particular example. There was a guy I know who lived with his friends and none of them wanted to do the dishes. And it was like all this hardship in the dishes. And so, This was their solution to the problem after sitting down and like everybody saying what they wanted. They went and got two huge Rubbermaid trash cans and they filled them with like water and a little bit of bleach. And they went to the like Goodwill and they bought all the cheap dishes they could buy. And they, every time they were done with their dishes, they just put them in these two Rubbermaid trash cans outside with all the bleach. And like once a month they would like put soap in and like wash it with like a sprayer. And like they all did dishes once a month on the driveway. I mean, kind of gross, but also awesome. Like there's like, there's that many solutions to the dish problem that is like haunting half of the marriages in the United States. You know what I mean? And instead we sit there and try to fucking control each other. It's kind of silly.

Yeah, yeah. One thing that's really coming up for me in this discussion is the idea that, um, because I am really like worried about, or I should really say triggered by, what I see as sort of the weaponization of the concept of boundaries.

Me too.

I think it happens a lot around sort of the periphery, I guess, of these communities.

Yeah.

Um, it keeps coming up for me in this conversation, like, oh, how could I, how could I talk about this? But But that example is pointing at something that I think is going on with a lot of the weaponization of boundaries is sort of like somebody has decided that they know the way.

Yes.

I know how to fix this problem. I'm having a problem. I know what the solution is. So I'm gonna say that this is my boundary so that you do it the way that I want you to do it.

Right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so there's like a little bit of a lack of ownership of what it is that they want, that if you could lead instead with the what you want or what your need is, you know, that maybe there's a much larger solution space that's possible.

Yeah, and oftentimes what I notice in modern society is it's around, like, they'll use safety as the thing. The boundary will be about safety. So it'll be, "I don't feel safe, and therefore everybody has to change to make me feel safe." And there's a way in which having people feel safe is really great and important, and it allows us all to thrive. And there is a way in which life is inherently unsafe. And so if you want other people, if other people, if you need other people to make you feel safe, you will never feel safe. The only way you can feel safe is to learn how to create safety for yourself. And obviously don't go live in a war zone because it's unsafe, right? So it's like this interesting, what seems like a paradox. And so what I noticed is with all of these things, something, let's say safety, safety becomes a way to control others. And boundaries can become a way to control others. And oftentimes you'll notice in those boundaries, they're asking someone to be different. They're asking them to do a different behavior. And the reason, the psychological reason behind that is, so you'll see this everywhere, is that the abused becomes the abuser. And it seems like it's a natural evolution for people to move out of an abuse cycle. But you'll see it in countries, countries that got deeply abused then start abusing. And you'll see it in kids who were abused, you know, often abuse their kids, or kids that are bullied at home bully at school. Like, you'll see this kind of passing down of the abuse cycle. And that's what happens is like, as somebody is feeling disempowered, they think the way to get to empowerment is to control other people. And then they use, I would call it topping from the bottom. They use their victimhood as a way to dominate other people. And empowerment isn't, as we've discussed in early in these podcasts, empowerment is being yourself despite the consequences. You don't— you never feel empowerment by having power because power can be taken away from you. So there's no way that you feel safe because you have enough power. You know, I, I know billionaires who don't feel safe. I know, you know, heads of state that don't feel safe. So safety and empowerment is that internal Understanding that I'm going to be truthful despite the consequences. So I think that's where that stems from, is that they're still in the power cycle. They're just trying to get the power instead of be powered over. But the solution is empowerment. And that's why something like Gandhi worked for the time that it was working, or Martin Luther King, is because those movements were about empowerment. The movements weren't about having power over somebody else. And when you see the movements are, "We want to have power over somebody else," that's when one group of dictators gets replaced with another group of dictators with a different philosophy. But it's the— and it's the same thing as one abuser gets replaced with another abuser inside of a relationship.

Two different pathways are presenting themselves in my mind.

Yeah.

So one is, if you find yourself on the receiving end of, gosh, or the giving end, if you find yourself in a dynamic where there's sort of this chopping from the bottom kind of use of safety or boundaries, how do you respond?

It's actually a really tricky one. In a context of coaching, I'll say, you seem pissed, tell me all about it. Like, I will elicit the anger that's underneath it. If that doesn't elicit the anger underneath it, I will call them out in such a way that shows that the victim, that they're topping from the bottom, and then they really do get pissed. So you'll notice that anybody who's doing that kind of like aggressive, what I call the aggressive victim stance, and you call them out on it, they get really pissed at you then. Then they get really, and then you get to see what's really underneath it all, which is far more beautiful for me than that in a business context, in a non-coaching context. If I see that that's what's happening, I will, I'll call it out. I'll call it out. I'll say something to the effect of like, I don't wanna be in a power dynamic with you. And I don't agree to be your bully. I don't agree to be the person who's oppressing you. I'll just say it directly like that. Like, I'm not gonna buy into a situation where you're not empowered and able to do what you wanna do, and I'm not able and empowered to do what I wanna do. And I'm not interested in any relationship where we're trying to change each other.

Which kind of sounds like a boundary.

Yeah, it's exactly.

And what happens to the dynamic?

Sometimes people get angry or leave or we're not in interaction anymore. And sometimes people see the freedom in it and they're like, a deep loyalty and trust is born because we're meeting each other as humans, not as objects to be controlled, not as ways to achieve power with each other. In teams, it's incredibly amazing. You see teams where there's an idea that there's some power structure And there's a control structure, and there should be in an organization, meaning that some people need to be in control of certain decisions and make those decisions, or man, nothing ever happens. But if there's the power dynamics where there's fear happening and then people are trying to feel safe through having power over or influence over other people, you'll just see that That's just a super dysfunctional team. They can get pretty functional, but they die quick and it doesn't last very long. Yeah, you have to have a really good product and high margins and good patents to pull off a business like that.

The thing I noticed you didn't talk about was like in an interpersonal non-coaching relationship, like a romantic relationship, a shared house.

I don't tend to have relationships with people who like to top from the bottom in my personal world. But let me just think. Yeah, the last time that that happened, I eventually created separation. I eventually said, like, in that particular case, I talked about it and they weren't wanting to or willing to see it. I think it's really hard for someone who's in the aggressive victim thing for them to see that that's what's happening because they're so defined as the victim. It's very hard for them to see that they're that it's very hard if they stop putting you in the oppressor role. It's really, really hard for them to see that they might be the abuser in the situation or might be part of the abuse cycle in the situation. And it happened that those abuses can be really subtle. It can be like, you know, it's usually the aggressive victim does things like shows up late all the time or says the little snarky comment in front of other folks or, refuses to change. Well, we agreed that this is how it's going to be, so I'm never going to change on this topic. Like, there's all sorts of little things that they do. They become incredibly indecisive so that the other person can't move freely. There's all sorts of things. But our society so much sees those people as the victim that needs to be saved. Whereas the person who's yelling and doing that kind of thing, or who's like, "Come on, goddamn it, like, what the hell?" They're the bad guy. And so there's like a societal norm that makes one of them the bad guy and one of them the victim and the poor person, poor person who this is being done to. So I just don't, I don't usually interact with either bullies or victims very much on a personal life, in a personal life.

So I have a question. That coming directly off of this sounds one way, and the other way it sounds is like, how can we somatically tell in ourselves whether we're having a good boundary or not? So the way it sounds off of this topic is like, okay, say you find yourself in a situation where you are in that fear, where you have been, I don't know, maybe using boundaries badly, or you're tempted to use a boundary badly.

Yeah.

To control someone, you know, what do you do?

Though there's the feeling of fear, there's a feeling of expansion when the boundary creates deeper love. So somatically, you will feel that love, you will feel that expansion. So that's how you know it for your first question. And then the second question is, Play, experiment, do bad boundaries. And when you do them, say, "I'm sorry, I was trying to control you. That's not how I wanna be with you." Like, you're not gonna get it perfect, so fuck it off, mess it up, screw up, blah, blah, blah, and then apologize and let that apology be one without shame that's heartfelt. And then it'll be harder and harder for you to do bad boundaries. Apologies are really useful that way. If you really give a heartfelt, non-shame-based apology, It's a great way to modify behavior. So yeah, it's just like, we all are gonna mess up. We're all gonna get scared and we're gonna think we're drawing a boundary that we're actually trying to control somebody else. But it's amazing if you can say to somebody, "I noticed I was trying to control you and that's not what I wanna do. It's not the relationship I wanna be in with you," how much people wanna hear that and how much trust that builds.

Yeah, I feel like boundaries can be really inspiring. So is there a story you know of, of where, you know, somebody coming into their empowerment and setting a boundary had, you know, beautiful results?

Yeah, it's not— I don't have a story. I have like infinite stories of this. Um, I cannot tell you how many people this, this story happened— has happened to, which is they're in a relationship they've fully bought into the fact that they're responsible for somebody else's emotional state, that they're, they're constantly looking, what did I do? What do I need to learn to make this relationship better? And then they draw the boundary and the relationship just immediately either ends or changes. Like, it just either immediately the relationship is done and they're free of it, um, I remember we had somebody here living on the property and my relationship with that person was good and my wife's relationship was not. And she didn't feel good that she could, you know, put my relationship with this person in damage or didn't feel like she had the right to ask or blah, blah, blah. And then literally the moment she did it, the person was like off the property. And I felt relief and she felt relief. And I'm sure the person who left, you know, felt relief as well. So I can't tell you how many times that it's either gone that way or the person who has been kind of the abuser feels the relief is like, "Oh good, I don't want that relationship either." Just the other day I was talking to a client and she was saying she had a good friend. And I remembered the story from like 2 years ago. And it was just kind of this passive-aggressive shitty friendship, but they had been friends for so long. And at some point, you know, the woman said, like, came to her and said, "I've been caretaking you, and I'm not gonna caretake you anymore. I'm gonna be really honest and straightforward with you. And there's a way in which you've been mean to me, like you resent resentful of me, and I don't understand why or how you could be resentful of me, but I don't want a relationship where we have resentment. I don't want to be a part of that. And their relationship, like, just from that single conversation, completely transformed. And they are— and the woman who it was said to, she said, you know, I was angry at you and I just couldn't tell why. I didn't know what was going on. But as soon as you said that to me, it just all dropped. Like, I was resentful for the caretaking, and I just— like, you weren't treating me like an equal. And now that we are, it's like, it's just wonderful. I can't tell you how many— like, that happens all the time. It really makes you question, is it— is the thing about the boundary that's scary is the freedom that we get on the other side? Yeah, yeah, there we go.

The whole thing that came up for me that I still— I don't know how to handle it, um, was around when I was living in this group house and there was some tension with me and another housemate. And then a, a different housemate than that was like, I can't have this kind of tension in my house. I need you to fix this or else I'm gonna leave. And that's just my boundary.

It was a boundary that wasn't done out of love, but it was done without trying to control you guys, which is interesting.

Right. Yeah. I find it really complicated. And what I was noticing during our talk is like, okay, well, one of the things that was sort of happening there is like, well, it was really constricted. And like, I know that I, when I come at people with constriction around my wants, it doesn't land well. And that that's, I think that's how the boundary and the whole thing of like, that's just my boundary, got used there was like—

So be that person for a minute and I'll be, I will just like kind of set the, how I would potentially handle it.

Okay, okay.

So you're gonna, we'll call you Joan.

Yeah, okay. So you're Alexa?

Yeah, I'm Alexa.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah.

So Alexa.

I just got a lot more attractive.

Yeah, but also now your name is a trigger word for everybody all the time.

Okay, okay.

Can you turn down the music?

Okay, so, um, Alexa, there's just so much tension in this household right now, and it just makes me feel really unsafe. I can't be like planning a future with people who are going to have this much tension, and I know you can fix it, and I just, I really need you to fix it, or else I'm gonna leave. I can't stay in this kind of a household.

Yeah, right. It is a fucking shit ton of tension and it sucks and I don't want it either. And I don't know if I know how to fix it. I really appreciate your confidence in me to be able to fix it. And I would love any insight you have that would allow me to fix it and not feel like I am— like I am compromising who I am. In the process.

Yeah, I already feel a difference, like, from how I responded, where I was also constricted, like, no, don't put all this on me, it's not on me.

Their fear in that moment, their fear was that their, their boundary wasn't going to get respected, that they had to be firm or they were going to be run over. That was their fear. And so as soon as I feel that fear in somebody, I can just, I can empathize with that fear and be like, yeah. And I can, I let them know that they're seen.

Wow, it's great. I mean, the other thing that was going on for me, I'm just noticing, is like, yeah, judging myself in real time right now, is feeling like Well, that's not fair. Like, tension happens, you know? It's your own trauma and it's your own story that's causing it to feel unsafe to you. And it's not my job to like fix it for you.

That's right. All that is really, really true.

Mm. And I appreciate that, but I wish I could respond in a way that's just like, so like, you know, yours is so like, "Oh, I really love how much faith you have in me," where I'm like, "I can't do that." I can't.

They are, they're like, "I know you can fix it." I mean, that is faith in you. And so maybe your authenticity in that moment needs to also say, "And I definitely don't wanna fix this tension to make you happy." Yeah. I wanna fix this. I do wanna fix this tension, but I definitely don't wanna fix this tension to make you happy. And I definitely don't wanna feel like I have to keep you happy to keep you to stay, 'cause that would just be a crappy relationship. There would be so much resentment.

Yes, absolutely.

So, and that's the thing, like what you heard what I said, you were like, ah, something in you relaxed and then something in you was still like, ah. And listening to that, eh, is the way that you get to that, the next level of clarity. Oh yeah, but there's still something there. It's like, and then how do you say that in an undefended way of not trying to change them?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's really good. So to tie this back into the podcast recording that we just did, like at the very end, your examples of great boundaries seemed kind of, I was surprised, it seems kind of scary. You're like, yeah, it was great. It ended that relationship. That person left. And my experience of boundaries, especially through work with you, is things that are a lot more subtle. It's like Brett kind of has a boundary with me of like, I need you to not stop me from base jumping. You know, not try to stop me. And I'm like, okay.

I was going to ask that question at the beginning, your boundaries around BASE jumping.

Well, one that came out—

But that's you immediately. That's what he's asking you to do something.

Uh-huh. And one that came out for me from that is like, I want to be supportive of you. And also I'm not going to shut down my fear and my feelings. You know, to make you feel safe.

Yeah, great.

And stating that boundary felt like, oh, there's so much more openness here. Like, I can be who I am and how I am, but it's not— it's not like as— it's scary. It's scary to say, but it's not as scary as your examples.

Yeah, I gave extreme examples. Your examples— that example is beautiful. I love that example. I hope to use it in the future. Great.

Yeah. And, and it felt to me a minute ago that there was something that was stitching all this together. It sounds to me like something that's emerging for me from this conversation. Boundaries actually are pretty scary for a lot of people to set and to hear. And then those boundaries that you are coming to an interaction with a lot of constriction have more potential, I think, for something kind of damaging. Because like what ended up happening with my house is that I did kind of shut down in this way of like, well, if you're coming at me like that, like I don't— that makes me actually not want this relationship and not want this household to work. And it did fall apart. I mean, they left.

Right. And that's the love thing. That's the, like, oh, immediately puts me into more love no matter what their response is. That's what that pointer is indicating, is to drop the defense. It's like the— if you, if you draw a boundary as a form of, like, as a way to defend yourself, you're in, you're in the fight, you're in the back and forth, you're in the, the fear triangle, you're in the power dynamic. And it's that fear that And it might be a really good pointer to put into it, which is the fear is that there's this fear that I'm not gonna be able to hold my boundary. That really, really makes boundaries come out wonky as shit.

Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right.

Yeah. If you 100% knew that it's like, oh, I'm not gonna put up with this. You know, like, I don't wanna live with this kind of fighting. And you are 100% sure of it and you knew you deserved it, it would sound like this. Hey guys, I don't want to live with this. Like, and so how do we fix it so I don't have to? And so I don't have to leave because I really love being with you guys otherwise. Yeah, you know what I mean?

Really think there's something to that.

Yeah, which ties into that. It's the internal work.

Mhm.

Yeah.

To like feel empowered and to know that you're worth it. It almost seems like once you really feel empowered and you really trust yourself, that you can state a boundary and it doesn't even land in anyone as a boundary.

Correct. And you don't want to say that to people because then they're going to give— have an excuse never to say their boundary because they still— well, once I figure it out— because especially the people who have a hard time drawing the boundaries are the people who think they have to be perfect all the time to be valuable enough to have a boundary.

Yeah, yeah, I definitely see your point there.

Yeah, so you gotta practice it.

But there's still something, right? Like the people who are saying something like, "And that's just my boundary." Right. Then that's a pointer that there's something constricted there.

Yeah, that they're scared. I mean, it's all fear. If you can see it all as fear, then like everybody's boundary and your own boundary is just sweetness. It's like, "Oh, everyone's scared." Yeah. Like I see a big, like just dealing recently with a, high-level executive, and there was like this big fight in the company. And as you know, I kept on coming back to, can you just see everybody is scared? Like, just scared, powerful people throwing big temper tantrums. That's like— and as soon as you can see it, man, it's just so easy to see through and navigate. Yeah, awesome. Okay, all right, that was good.

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