What's Your Scorecard? (Coaching Session)

I always trusted myself. Give me a scorecard, I'm going to find a way to rack up points on it. But when you remove that, I'm not sure I trust myself. That's one of those moments that I won't be able to, uh, unhear in a good way.

Welcome back to The Art of Accomplishment, where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease. Today's episode is a coaching session between Joe and a man named K. K wanted to explore his relationship with money and ultimately finds a number of scorecards that he's used to, to manage and navigate his life. And we find out what happens without a scorecard. If you want to watch the video version of this session, check out the link below to our YouTube account, which is The Art of Accomplishment. Check it out and enjoy the episode.

Hi, K. Good to see you.

Hello, Joe.

So what, what do you wanna do? What do you wanna do a coaching session on today?

Oof. I, um, you know, we've talked a lot about, um, my relationship with money. I think that's one, one trope, one difficult part in my life. I'd say that's one. Another one that I've realized recently is, um, just kind of this ongoing need for validation. And I think it's kind of, I, I look at my career where I chased money and status for a while and kind of achieved some of those and then kind of very quietly said, well, I don't care about those things, but instead I want likes and attention and notoriety and people to talk about me. And so I wonder, you know, there's definitely a grasping and a clinging there. So that would be kind of another, another, they're probably related, but that would be another area of interest.

Yeah. And just what, what's the relationship with money now? What, how would you describe it and what's, what's, what, what's the thing that doesn't feel aligned about it?

I think that Intellectually, I'm fine with the amount of money that I have. If I just show up, do my thing, invest semi-normally, me and my kids will be fine.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, I don't care about the intellect.

Okay.

Tell, tell me about the, tell me about what's the emotional component.

Yeah. The, well, the emotional component is that, um, there's still some kind of scorecard that I keep in my head. And it kind of— self-worth kind of oscillates with that. Uh, you know, like the market's been up a few days, I'm like, ah, I just like feel a little bit better about everything.

I see. Um, yeah.

And, but it's really that kind of scoreboard. It's kind of like I'm always looking at other people and it's like, oh, I'm— there's like, there's this feeling where I'm like, oh, I'm better because I have more financial success.

Yeah.

But I also know intellectually that it's, A, I will lose that game, like in the long run. And it's very unsatisf— feels problematic.

Great. Okay. So, uh, what if there was no scorecard? Hmm. If you just literally couldn't believe in a scorecard. Every scorecard, you were just like, it's not, it's not at all accurately assessing in your, in your heart, in your body. If there's no scorecard, what would, what would you have to sit with?

I think I'd be lost.

Yeah.

I think, yeah, I would be, I'd be rudderless.

Yeah. That's great. How does it feel to be rudderless?

It's funny, you like, uh, as you said that, there's like the, this, you know, like when you drop on a roller coaster and your, your stomach catches up with you on the drop. That's like, that's what I felt in that, in that moment. Like, oof.

Um, how is that feeling different than freedom?

How is it different? I mean, that's, that feeling is— it's almost— it's a derivative of getting punched in the gut.

So, uh, so let's say you jump off of— you bungee jump off of a bridge and you have that exhilaration of like, oh, I'm flying. How is it different?

It's, it's only the scary part of it, not the exhilarating part of it. Okay. So it's kind of the, is the bungee gonna, is the bungee gonna hold or am I, uh, what's the whiplash?

Let's say it doesn't. Let's say that, let's say you actually find out with 100% certainty that there is no scorecard. There's no, there's no way of describing your worth accurately.

It's, it's, it feels very— it's, it's scary because I feel like I don't know myself in that world.

Yeah, right. So I think there's this thing that they do now called like a darkness thing. Have you heard about this, where you basically like go into. So you put a mask on and then you get put into a cave and you're like just in the cave. It's pretty luxurious, but like you're in on a— with a mask in a dark cave, you can't see anything for like days on end. And I'm just gonna ask you to imagine that that is your life forever. What would be the scorecard? You still exist as much as you can imagine.

And, and you can't see, right?

You can't see. It's all— it's dark. The weather, the temperature is the same. There's no outside interaction.

Yeah.

All that's happening is what's happening inside of you. You have all your needs met. Hmm. What's, what's the scorecard?

Survival.

Now you got food, comfortable bed, 5-star hotel. It's just, it's no interaction.

Like, uh, like there's, you know, like literally what's around the corner, because what's lurking behind the corner.

All right, that's great.

Awesome.

So if you're enough, what does that do to change your capacity to what's lurking behind the corner? If you're enough, if you're validated, if you have enough checkmarks or likes, dollars in the bank account, women, whatever, friends, loved ones, whatever, acolytes. If you have enough of those, how does that help you deal with what's around the corner in I think I—

in that situation, it's as if it doesn't— it doesn't seem like it matters because it, it really does. Like, you know, nothing's going to— I really feel like my survival is at risk even though, you know, it's a Four Seasons. Yeah, you've described. And so it's almost like no one cares. Like, whatever threat is lurking around the corner, no one cares about your SAT score, right? Or your, uh, your business card. So, so it doesn't matter.

What specifically is trying to survive?

I think that, like, my, my body, right? Like my physical body. I think it's I know, kind of.

If you knew you were physically being safe, what would then— if you had 100% transparency and clarity that you were going to be physically safe for the next 30 years. Yeah, we're all going to die. Like, the only thing that's actually certain is that you're not physically safe. But let's just assume that 30 days, 30 years, you're physically safe.

Yeah.

What's, what's, what's scared? What's left to be scared of? In this dark room?

Uh, loneliness.

And what dies in the loneliness? What dies? What dies if you have no scorecard?

I think, um, I— when you ask it that way, it's almost like the scorecard ensures like human connection, right? Like it lets people see that I'm, I'm here. I'm right. I'm here. I'm good. I'm, I'm alive. Right? Yeah. It's like a, you know, it's like, I, I kind of like waving a sign at a protest, right? It's like, I'm here. Like, look at me, pay attention to me.

Right. Yeah. The thing that's interesting about yours, the scorecards you choose, they can be taken away from you.

Mm. Yeah.

They're not completely within your control. Yeah. What's— what would be the internal scorecard that says I'm good, I'm valid, that can't be taken away from you?

My ability to love others. That can't be taken away. It also can't be measured.

No, it can't be measured accurately, but yeah, there's a definitely a different sensation in one's body if you have a capacity to love, or if you have more or less of a capacity to love.

Yeah, absolutely. Um, what can't be taken away ability.

That you can measure that, like, that says, hey, I'm good, I'm valuable. So right now you're entering into this kind of spacious— is what it looks like to me.

Yeah.

So from that place, can you describe the bank account? Don't go into your intellect, just In that spacious, like, that recognition of the truth of who you are, that creates a lot of silence in your system. From that perspective, what does that see or know about your bank account?

Um, feels very— it's the doesn't matter, or it's disconnected, unconnected. Um, I think there's a part that wants to, wants to grasp, but I'm kind of not, I'm not feeling the urge to grasp, you know. I think my intellect's saying, grab for it, grab it, grab it, but it's right, it's not really appealing.

Yeah. I think that just to remind ourselves, just go back to that question of what is the scorecard that can't be taken away from you, the internal one.

There's still something about safety coming up. Yeah, it's not—

this experience is not safe. No, no, right? It's going to be gone, so therefore it's fleeting. The thing that's observing this experience is going to be gone. Your body is going to be gone. There's nothing safe about This. It just admits it. The bank account doesn't admit it.

I feel like the first thing that comes up is, what can I do in this moment What can I think about? What can I say to feel safe? That's—

yeah. And, and does that put points on the board or take them away from the internal scorecard?

I, I, I think it's like, pay attention to the internal scorecard.

It's not an intellectual thing, it's just, you know And if you have the thought, what do I have to do to be safe? And let's do an A/B test against the thought process of, oh, I'm never safe. Which one puts points on the board?

Or do I be doing stuff to be safe?

In the moment, not the future. In the moment. I, I'm not saying that that's not right. I'm just saying, like, yeah, in this moment, if you go, oh, I have to do something to be safe, does that take you away? Does it bring you closer? Does it put the points on the board? Does it take them away?

In the moment, the moment The moment it—

I don't—

it doesn't feel necessary.

Yeah. Does it make you feel safer to have the thought in the moment?

To have which thought?

What do I have to do to be safe? Or what can I do to be safer? Does that increase the sensation of safety in the moment or decrease it?

Decrease or no change, but not increase.

Not increase. What do you suspect your life would look like if all you did was just pay attention to this scorecard instead of the likes instead of the bank account, instead of the kicking ass and surfing, whatever it is. Dad's approval.

I think the first word that comes to mind is like meandering or wayward.

Mm-hmm. Right. It's that lost feeling because you don't have a scorecard kind of thing.

Yeah, it's like the scorecard is the map. So to speak.

Yeah.

Um, but, but also there's like a, there's a, there's a glimpse into freedom, right?

Yeah.

But it's just, it's just a glimpse. It's not right. Yeah, it's not a full-throated—

what, what if this is a compass and all it can do is just point where north is? Or point in the direction you're supposed to go, but it's— there's no map. Hmm.

I, I mean, I trust it. Not fully, but I'm willing to— I'm willing to— I'm willing to play.

Yeah. Oh. So you followed the first map, which is money. It didn't get you where you wanted to go. Mm-hmm. You're following the second map, which is likes, which clearly isn't getting you where you want to go, or we wouldn't be talking about it.

Mm-hmm.

Where do you want to go?

It's hard. It's hard to describe with words because I don't think it's a— I don't think it's a thing. Yeah, right.

I don't think it's a container, uh, and, and this, this compass that's like this— when you pay attention to the internal scorecard, how far away are you from the thing you want to be?

Can you say that again, please?

Yeah, I'm gonna do it in steps. So the question is, what's the, what's the scorecard that can't be taken away from you? And you— and it, and it looked like we were kind of thinking that it's like a compass. It's like you just know what's true for you, like what brings you closer to yourself or further away from yourself.

It's a piece of sorts. Yeah.

So go there, pay attention to that compass or scorecard or whatever you want to call it. And how close is that to the place you want the map to take you?

I can't tell if it's— this is just the place, meaning there is nowhere to go, or just trusting it or listening to it, it will get me to where it will get me to the place, if that makes sense. Yeah. So like, if— is it— is it just this way of existing or is it this way of existing, being that eventually reveals what the, you know, like the, the ultimate destination.

What makes that a dichotomy instead of a both/and? Like, what you're— there in there, there's an assumption of a dichotomy. What makes you assume a dichotomy?

I think that there is some element of not, not moving is, I guess the first thing that comes is like, not moving is bad, right? And so, so the, so the dichotomy is that, that being and just being with, with that internal compass is insufficient in if it doesn't actually move you to some other place.

Ah, yeah. What's the part of you that's not— what's the part of you that's never been— I don't need an answer as much as like, can you— how do you get in touch with the part of you right now that has never been moved, that has never been touched, that has never been affected, that is Or the part of you that's always been there the same way since the beginning till now.

Do you mean to kind of connect with that part?

Yeah. And now tell it that it has to move, and I want to hear what its response is. You have to move to be valuable. You have to get somewhere to be valuable.

It, it's saying it's basically kind of scared of the authority figure, the person giving the order, saying like, where do you want me to go? Just tell me. It almost like it has no agency. That when it's waiting to be told and scared, I mean, fear comes up often. Yeah.

When you were a kid, how often did the rules of the game change? The game of getting attention and approval, which is what every kid does. You can open your eyes if you want. How often did the rules of the game change?

I feel like with my parents it was very transparent in that they were pretty consistent about what the rules were.

I think that, yeah, but when you did it, did you get the reward?

There weren't a lot of attaboys in, uh, growing up.

So the goalposts constantly moved. There's no winning. Where, like, how did you win? Tell me about one time that you won with your parents where you felt like, I fucking won. I got it done.

I think when they caved and bought me a Nintendo.

When you got them to do what you wanted them to do.

Yeah. Or oftentimes it was like, buy me what I wanted them to buy. I think that that was very much The, the, the conflict is I want, I want this. And it's like, well, do well in school and then you can have all the X, all the Nintendos you want in the world. Right. So I never thought of it as the goalposts moving, but I guess that's like the ultimate example.

Yeah. Right. It makes sense why you chased money first.

Mm-hmm.

Winning was when you got what you wanted financially.

And that feels very, very salient. I, I, I basically remember my par— my parents saying no to anything that I ever wanted, like physi— physical non-survival needs, toys, clothes, games, comic books, that stuff.

Yeah.

And I remember a fierce determination. It was like, no one's ever gonna tell me what I can and cannot have. Yeah. I was like, that's, I started making money when I was 13 years old.

Yeah. Um, how about just say this sentence out loud for me, which is nobody's can ever tell me that I can or cannot have safety. Yeah.

Nobody's ever gonna tell me that I can or cannot have safety.

What happens in your system when you say that?

A little bit of that bungee jumping plunge, not as strong.

What made it so clear in your system about the money, but not so clear in your system about the safety?

I never— I rarely felt safe as a kid, and that was because I had to walk to and from school by myself. And like, you could get jumped. And I got jumped a handful of times.

Yeah, me too.

So I never I hated walking.

Yeah.

And yeah, I hated that feeling. Right.

But what you weren't doing was taking MMA classes at 13. You were earning money at 13.

Yeah.

What, what was the— what created the determination around the money and not the safety? Because you meet people who are just like, yeah, I'm not going to feel unsafe. And they learn how to kick ass.

Yeah, I think part of it is probably cultural where, you know, being of Asian descent, my parents are very non-confrontational, very kind of scared of authority figures.

Mm-hmm. So the difference is, it sounds like, tell me how off I am here. The difference was your, your parents were taught you and were confident in the fact that you could do what you needed to do to be able to buy any Nintendo you ever wanted, but they were not confident in the fact that you could be safe. Safety was not something that they saw was a possibility for you.

I think, yeah, I mean, there was zero Zero talk ever in our family about self-defense, fighting, fighting back.

I mean, it's safety even in a broader sense. How much did your parents conceive the idea that they could be safe as a real possibility?

I don't think they'll ever truly believe that. Yeah, I know my dad for sure. Yeah.

And how much did they, did they believe that they could be well off, that they could have financial security by all the Nintendos?

Yeah, I definitely more than safety.

Yeah.

I remember my dad's, my dad, you know, like many parents have this aphorism that sticks with you forever. And so my, my dad's for us was, we may not be the smartest, but we're the hardest working. Right. Like you, you kind of got me. You, you nailed me pretty well with that one, dad. Yeah.

Okay. So where do you go when you get to the top of the mountain? Where does the map take you?

I mean, it so often looks for another mountain to scale, right? I think there's something about kind of idleness being like it makes you a target, right? Like a sitting duck of sorts.

So, um, the, the scorecards, the money, the, the likes, whatever the scorecard is, the, um, what happens when you get there? Like when you get to the top of that mountain, where do you go? What, like you talked about like a wayward feeling, like, yeah.

I think you, I think I feel un— well, there's a, you're kind of hit with this kind of wave of dissatisfaction in the, in the sense of like, that's it. This is the thing, you know, like kind of the classic hedonic treadmill type stuff, but like, wow, that's That's it.

I have a question for you. So that sensation of like, I'm there, like I'm at the top of the mountain.

Yeah.

Or that moment where you went internal and you saw the scorecard, the internal scorecard that can be taken away. See, see what it's like. Take a moment to feel internally. Um, there's no place for me to go and I'm lost. Like, put those two together. You felt it earlier in the session, but put those together for a second. I have no idea where to go and I'm lost. And now put together, I have no idea where to go and I'm not lost. I know exactly where I am.

The first thing that like popped up really loud was the word trust. So almost like in giant letters, it's like there is this— it's like, do I trust? It's like, do I trust myself? Right? Do I? Yeah. And when I'm on top of the mountain, I, you know, for some reason when you asked that, I was kind of— I was on top of the Wall Street mountain. That's where I was visualizing myself. Yeah. And I definitely did not trust anything about the situation other than my ability to make more money.

Yeah. So what if that's the scorecard? How much you trust yourself? Oof.

That was like both deflating and inspiring at the same time.

What did it deflate?

It's so much easier to trust in a scorecard, you know, the work's, you know, it, the work's done for you is, is what it's, yeah, it's, it's trust that, yeah, I, I don't, I'm not sure I trust myself.

What if that's a scorecard? You put score— you put points on the board the more you trust yourself. Points lead— your bank account is self-trust.

Yeah.

Or your likes are self-trust.

I mean, feels pretty fucking awesome, which is weird because I always trusted myself when there was a scorecard. It was like, if give me a scorecard, I'm gonna find a way to rack up points on it. Great. So there's tremendous amount of trust there.

Yeah.

But when you remove that, I'm like, oh wait, it's like, it's like all these conflict. It's like you trust yourself, but you know, it's, there's all these con— that's why I was like deflating and inflating.

Yeah.

Simultaneously.

Yeah.

Who? What if trusting yourself? That's one of those moments that I won't be able to unhear in a good way.

Yeah. There's one other just piece that I want to speak to about it, which is A tree doesn't have a goal, but it keeps on evolving. Like, the idea that you could stop evolving is— the only way you could stop evolving is by dying. Like, there's this fear that, like, oh, I don't—

I won't—

I won't keep on going if I trust myself, or if I listen to that internal scorecard, or whatever it is. There's that idea as if like your strain is required to evolve. Like you did the most evolution in your life from 0 to 8 years old and you weren't consciously trying to get someplace. You probably did your least evolving in Wall Street between 28 and 38 years old, then you were striving the whole time. They're not correlated is what I'm saying. They're sometimes correlated, sometimes not. You mean, what do you think? What do you think happens to your evolution if your scorecard is trusting yourself? The more you trust yourself and you get really good at it, you do the same thing you did with the money, the same thing that you did with the likes, and you just like— your scorecard was how much you can trust your authentic self. Yeah. What do you think happens to your evolution?

The first thing I thought is it feels like being on drugs. In a good way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. Yeah.

It's almost like the, you know, like the racehorses with the blinders.

Yes.

It's kind of like you just, you could move them 5 degrees wider and completely change the aperture of, of sight. That's what it feels like. That's what it feels like. It feels It feels really exciting.

Awesome.

Can I ask one question?

Yeah, of course.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm scared that— see, here it comes. I feel like when I, you know, where I'm like deeply present and following your smooth radio voice, and, uh, it's like, I'm gonna get, you know, I'm gonna go and get back on, like, log into whatever I log into. And then, you know, this will be really salient, you know, for a couple days, and then it will start to fade a bit. And then in 2 weeks, 3 weeks, it will be a distant memory.

Do you know any sport? Do you know any scorecard that doesn't work that way? Ebbs and flows of the market. You forget it, you obsess over it for a while.

Is there— how does one— I mean, the first thing that came to mind is, how did you do it with money? A mantra, which would be, you know, how did you do it with money?

How did you remind yourself religiously to make money?

Just by breathing, right?

Yeah.

I mean, it's—

what do you think would have happened if you would have asked me, how do I remember? How do I keep on remembering that I need to make money on Wall Street? Like, how do you— what do you think? How successful would you have been?

Yeah, it's just the, it's the, it's the water you swim in, right? The oxygen you breathe.

Yeah.

Tell me how the imprint of money is like 44 years and the imprint of trust is 1, 1 hour.

Let's see if that's, let's see if that's true. So we have this metric that we just found out, which is like trust points on the board are how well am I, how am I trusting myself? That's how we score it. How long now that we have that scorecard, can you look back and tell me how long you've been playing that game?

Yeah.

If I asked your wife, how long has Kay been working on trusting himself, what would her answer be?

Something like, he's all he always has.

Yeah.

Or she might even be more extreme. It's like, you know, it's just a part of who he is. Yeah, it was funny how I qualified that, right? It's like, she might.

Yeah, right. So we're just looking, we're just looking at an orientation to a, to a movement that you have in you naturally. Mm-hmm.

Beautiful.

And, and that's part of the thing, is that that fear distracts you from trusting yourself. Like, in this moment, there was like putting points on the board of trusting yourself is like, oh, I trust that I will, I will be focused on this. I trust that this landed. I trust that. And then this is, you know, this is the— and of course it's going to ebb and flow, and of course you're going to go through moments of non-trust and trust, but you crush every game that you have played. So, and you've been playing this game for a while now. We just learned a new move and a, and a cool metric.

Thank you. What a pleasure. You're welcome.

What a pleasure.

Awesome, man.

Good to be with you.

Wow, you're good.

Thank you, what a pleasure.

Wow, that was amazing. Thank you, Kay, for showing us the man behind the scorecard, and thank you, Joe. Thank you everybody for listening. Uh, if you love this episode, share it with somebody. Remember, you can find the video version of this on our YouTube account at Art of Accomplishment. Till next time, take care.