Wonder — Connection Course Series #2

It's really a point of view of looking at the world. Follow your wonder, like it's a trail, and just follow it in the conversation about the other person, about yourself, in the conversation, just follow it.

Welcome to The Art of Accomplishment, where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease. My name is Brett Kistler. I'm an adventurer, entrepreneur, and a self-exploration enthusiast I'm here with my co-host, Joe Hudson. Joe is a business coach who spent decades working with some of the world's top executives and teams, developing a unique model of human patterns that underpin how we operate with ourselves, each other, and the world. A good entry point into this model is a mindset called VIEW: Vulnerability, Impartiality, Empathy, and Wonder. Through understanding and cultivation, we learn to easefully drop into the VIEW state of mind, deepening self-awareness and increasing our connection with the world around us. To learn more about this podcast or courses, visit artofaccomplishment.com.

Most of us spend a lot of our time feeling a subtle pressure to know things, to understand our world so that we can make predictions, feel safe, and be seen as knowledgeable. But the moment we think we know everything is also the moment we stop learning. What if there's always more to the story than we can ever know? And how might living our lives from a consistent place of wonder give us more actionable information and opportunities than clinging to what we think we know? This is the practice of wonder, the W in VIEW. Joe, can you tell me what you mean by wonder?

Wonder is— there's a lot of ways to describe it, but one of the ways to describe it is to say, like, we've all felt it before. We all know that, like, and maybe some of us haven't felt it since we were kids. Um, but that's, that's something that we all know. And, and what it is, it's like curiosity without looking for an answer. Because when you're looking for an answer, you can just feel in your system that your system constricts a little bit. If you're just like, oh my gosh, what is happening here? And there's no pressure to find an answer. Like, an answer may come, but there's no pressure. Then the state, the physical state remains expansive. So it's like that. The other way to think of it is it's like curiosity and awe put together, right? And the thing about awe, the reason I use that word in particular is because if you're awestruck by something, you, you have a recognition that it's out of your control, that it's something that's like beyond you, beyond your ability to maybe even recognize in that moment. And there's only a few things in, in the way that the human psyche works that creates that. Like gratitude is another one that creates that feeling of like there's something greater. And acknowledging that you need things is another because it just— all these things are outside of your control often. Most of the time, say, we don't say gratitude like, I'm really grateful that I kicked ass. I mean, we might occasionally, but most of the time we're grateful for things that are beyond us. And that's the thing about wonder. It has awe because we are we acknowledge that there's something beyond our ability to even maybe recognize. So that's another way of thinking of it. The other thing that's particularly important to view conversations is that you're in the question, right? There is a time in my life when this question arose, and it was, what am I? Was basically the question. And I was in that question for 10 years. And it wasn't about trying to answer the question, it was about being in the question. I could come up with answers, but every answer was based on some context. You know, I could say I'm my body, but then I would, you know, be in wonder for a while. I'm like, well, which part of my body— if I cut my body in half, which part of my body is me? And to realize that even that isn't me. What am I? And the power of that was being in the question. It wasn't never finding the answer to the question. And so that's another way to look at wonder, is that you're in the question, right?

It's like when the moment you come up with an answer, it's like the search stops. But if you stay in the question, there's always opportunity for some other aspect to come in, like some other aspect of yourself to be seen.

Exactly. Yeah, that's beautifully put. Yeah.

How does, how does cultivating a persistent state of wonder benefit us? What does this do for us?

There's so many ways in which it does. I mean, if you just think about those times that you're awestruck, like imagine a life when you're awestruck all the time, and just imagine living a life where that is 10, 20% more of your life, just even 10 or 20% more awestruck by life. There's this thought process that people share about miracles and that actually we're experiencing miracles all the time, but we're so used to them or we can describe enough of them. You know, we can describe, like the sun for instance, you can just be awestruck by the sun. You can answer forever, you know, how it got formed maybe and how it's working and so, or you see it every day so there's nothing to be awestruck about, but if you really like just contemplate like, why? Why sun? Why universe? Why cosmos? And goodness, like, how did it— yes, all this stuff happened, but how did it actually come to pass that we were circling the sun? It's just awe-inspiring. And it leads you to places that you can't get to any other way. There's, um, I was listening to, out of all people recently, the head of Amazon, and he talked about the beginning of his day, he would just wander. He would just— he just wanders in his mind and in the space, like, that's part of what he does. Because there's a, there's a harvest from wandering or from being in wonder and just exploring without looking for a place to land. There's a harvest that comes from that because you discover all sorts of cool stuff. And so this, this applies in business and in relationships. And, you know, oftentimes when people are in relationships, one of the things that you see is that they just— everybody thinks they know everybody. And, and so they, they categorized everybody, and then the relationship gets dull. Whereas if you're in wonder, it's a constant exploration. You know, who I am when I married my wife is very different than who I am today, and there's constantly an evolution to be discovered in my wife and, and, and for her to discover in me, and that keeps a relationship fresh. Keeps a business fresh in the exact same way. Uh, it's, it's nice in the body, like, to be in wonder. It just feels really good. It's quite an enjoyable thing. And another thing that it does is it's really— it's quite an antidote to fear. If you say, do this experiment: close your eyes and imagine you are running from a tiger, and the tiger is, is coming and it's getting closer. You can hear the footsteps, you can like hear its breath, it's panting to like catch you and you're running as fast as you can and you don't really think there's any way out and you know it's about to come and pounce. And now wonder, how much does that tiger weigh? Right? Like, you can't hold the fear if you're in curiosity or in wonder, and you can't be in wonder particularly if you're holding the fear. So to reflect on what is— what you are in wonder about immediately does something to the fear, that, that the subtle, the more subtle fears that may be running through you. So that's another one.

It's like, uh, it's like the fear itself is something that optimizes us to produce a fast result and a fast output, but not to, not to process more deeply. Uh, and that's, I think that's a, that's a good thing sometimes. I mean, I imagine if we, if we walk around being constantly awestruck by the sun and the universe That must have its drawbacks. I mean, there are, there are people who, who do that constantly and they're disconnected from, from the world and they're not taking any action.

One more thing before we go there. One more thing is just to say that the, the other thing that it benefits you being in wonder is that it, it, um, you know, in today's world, it's really not the answer, right? In the age of Google, anybody can find an answer. It's really the right question. Like, are you asking the right question? And being in wonder helps you ask the right questions, right? One person can spend their life building Google, and another person can spend their life building the local tire shop, and they can both work just as hard as each other. It's just a different question that they're living in. Or one person can ask, what's the, what's the phone that everybody will use? And another person will ask the question, what's the phone that's easy to use? And you're gonna get two different phones, right? So being in wonder really helps you understand the value of the right questions is the last one.

Right, it helps you break out of the limited context of your previous question into a bigger question.

Yeah, yeah.

Which brings me back to that question that I just had of if we're constantly breaking out of the limited question into the biggest question. Of why sun, why universe, uh, how do we, how do we ground ourselves in that? What is there? Is there a going too far with this wonder thing?

I don't know anybody who can actually be in a perpetual state of wonder. I've never seen that. There's a way in which— there, there's a way to have a pretty consistent awestruck experience of the world. It's actually interesting, I was recently listening to all these people who had lived over 100 years And I know I've actually met a couple as well, and something that they all have in common is that they all have this just like, "Isn't it wonderful?" You know, or they're talking about like they ate this food and it was just so amazing, or they were doing little things, but it was these little things in life that just created so much awe and joy and wonder in them. And yet they were 100 years old or more, and they had friends and they had family and they had careers that they had lived through and But that was the, that was the, the thing that they all had in common. And it's just, just like kids are the same way, right? That they have this amazing wonder in their worlds and they learn incredibly quickly, right? And, and if you kill it completely, you can get a task done, but you might not get the right task done. And so, yeah, there's a place where wonder ebbs and flows. It's really about your access to it in the moment. And, and I think that there is this illusion of kind of like this person who's constantly like disassociated from life and they're in this constant state of wonder. My experiences of those people is that they're not actually in a constant state of wonder. You know, it's, it's good for books and stuff, but what they actually are is they're in a constant state of disassociation where they— where whatever is happening in real life is very difficult for them. And so their, their mode of being able to handle that isn't to fight It's kind of to disassociate. And so I don't see people who are in, like, a deep state of wonder, like, too much. I just don't— I haven't seen it. But I can expect if you are in a state of wonder so much that you have stopped doing stuff, that obviously would go too far. But one of the things that wonder does, interestingly, is it propels you to do stuff, right? Like, I'm really curious. How does this work? Propels you to do stuff. Oh, wow. What would happen if I, you know, had this different kind of business, or if I changed my business in this way, or if I— if I looked at my wife this way, or if I looked at my best friend this way? It propels you to change the way you're doing stuff, run experiments, and learn. When I see people in that deep level of curiosity, then there's a lot of movement in their life. Now, if there's other things that are happening that might stop them from taking action, that would be more things like depression or being lost in their head all the time in their thought, not, you know, repressed anger, things like that. That would be a stuck feeling. And, and I don't know a lot of people who have that stuck feeling, or anybody who has that stuck feeling who also has a lot of wonder, right? Because let's say you're depressed. And you have a ton of wonder, what happens? You're like, huh, what's making me depressed? What is depressed exactly? I don't mean what, what is— what part of me? What's the me that's depressed? What's the me that's— that can see through, that can see I'm depressed? How does that work?

Yeah, how is this feeling of depression being like in my body, right?

Yeah. And as you start asking those questions, the depression starts to alleviate because the depression is being created mostly because of a critical voice in the head that there's no curiosity about, right? You can just turn that curiosity right to the critical voice in the head and things will change pretty quickly if you can consistently have that state of wonder about the voice in your head, not trying to solve it, but just to be in awe of like, whoa, what is this thing constantly managing me? What gives it the right? What, what, what, what makes it think it's right? Well, what makes it think it's, it's good at its job when it's created complete stagnation in my system? What makes it think it's good at its job if it's still having to manage me over the same shit 10 years later? Like, what is happening here? Like, that state of awe and wonder is going to shift a lot. It's going to create— you can just feel how that creates movement. So I've never really seen people stop doing— obviously, you know, if you're in a state of wonder so much that you're like, can't— you can't complete a sentence because you're so in awe of the language, It's going to get problematic. I've just, I've just never seen it.

Yeah. The, uh, the example of the old people reminds me of something I learned recently about dementia, where there are, there are people who die, who have like a normal, normal life and are vibrant throughout their older years, their later years. And then they die and their brain is, uh, autopsied and they have the brain of somebody who has dementia, but they didn't have it. And the, the difference between the people who don't actually present it psychologically are that they have— they're constantly learning, they're constantly in wonder, um, so they're, they're constantly rewiring. So even though the wiring is getting tangled, it's developing new pathways all the time versus living in the same pathways that are just breaking down over time and then becoming less and less efficient.

Wow, I didn't know that. That's beautiful. You can start to feel it in your 40s and, and definitely in your 50s, this desire to stay in the neural pathways, to stay in the, the routine of life. And it just starts to take the joy out of life. And like, look at how few people you see in their 70s who are living a joyful life, you know, like exuberant life. And their lives are great often when they're 70s outside of potentially some physical pain there. They're retired in America, at least in America, they're retired and they have a family and they, but there's just no wonder in it.

What happens to us when we shut that wonder down? Like in the moment, let's say in a conversation or a business negotiation where, for example, we're worried about getting it right or being perfectly understood. And so we shut down the wonder. What, what happens then? And more simply, I guess the question is, what is the opposite of wonder?

Yeah, the opposite of wonder is, is knowing, or, or wanting to be maybe seen as knowing, uh, since knowing is really impossible on one level of looking at it. So the way I would say it is, you know, I see this all the time, especially when I was a venture capitalist. I saw this all the time, which was people would come to me and they'd make their pitch, and the The standard way of thinking about it was that they were going to come and impress me with their knowledge and show me that they had a really good business idea. And then I would know that they have really good business idea and then I would give them money. That would be the kind of the standard way that they would come to the meeting, which is weird because as a venture capitalist, I probably should know more about it than they do because I'm in 10 businesses. Or at least the same amount as they do. And so they're coming in with this knowing, trying to share the knowing. And what basically happens is, if I agree with them, I will fund it, and if I don't agree with them, I won't fund it, which is a very limited potential to fund it, right? So there's just like this very skinny chance that we're going to agree. But if they come in with wonder— and I had this happen once, I remember I was so blown away by it, um, It was a great company. It was very successful. This CEO came in to raise the money and he was like, okay, so what do you need to see to, to, to fund? What are the boxes that you need to check off? And I would, you know, immediately told him because that would save me a shit ton of time, right? Instead of having to listen to, you know, 10 slides on the total addressable market and what the market was like, as if I would like hadn't done that research or whatever. And And then he just went through and went through exactly what I needed to hear. And he started in a place of wonder instead of a place of knowing. And he, he knew that I would be more attracted to him in a learning journey than I would in being told what, what, what is right and what is wrong. And if you just think about that, like, you look at your friends, look at your friends who know what's right and wrong. And like, how enjoyable is it to be around them, right? I don't know how many companies I've been in where I see somebody and they're like, that's the problem person. I'm like, okay. And then you can meet the problem person. The problem person thinks they know everything. That's the problem person is they think they're right about everything. There's no wonder in their system.

They're also probably pointing at a lot of problem people because they know it.

Yeah, that's right. That's right. So they're not in a learning journey with anybody. And nobody wants to be that. What people want to be is in a learning journey with each other. You know, we like to have someone who knows some stuff. Yeah, I mean, it's great. People are listening to this podcast right now, hopefully with the idea that I might know something. But my job is to go on learning journeys with people. My job is to ask them what they know, is to ask open-ended questions to them. My job is to assume that they know the best step that's there for them, and in a way that I couldn't— how could I know that? I don't know their whole history. I don't know everything that happened to them. It doesn't matter if I had the wisdom of every human being in the world except for them. They still know more than I do about what they're supposed to do next. So if you're in a state of knowing and trying to, like, convince people of your knowing, that's, that's the opposite. And then being attached to your knowing, which is like utterly ridiculous on so many levels, because knowing is only relevant based on context, right? Meaning, let's say I know it's, it's bad to lie. That's a context that I'm assuming. I'm assuming that we're all in the same context of, you know, whatever it might be, say suburban living. But if I'm in the context of hiding people from an authoritarian government who wants to kill them, that's a different context. Well, at least at that point, lying's more of a question. You know, for me, it wouldn't be a question. It would be, yes, I would lie to the authoritarian government, but there'd be more of a question about the right and wrongness of it. And, and so everybody has their own context. And so to think you know something is to not only assume that you know the right answer, but It's also to assume that you know the context of the person that you're going around with. And it's also to assume that they don't have some wisdom in what they're saying, which is ridiculous. We can't be that. So it's far better to be in wonder, and then you're in a journey with the people, and you're both learning, and it's like your mutual freedom instead of your telling them something.

Right. So how do you stop, like, a shutdown of wonder from happening, this collapse into knowing? Wonder seems like it might be a pretty fragile thing sometimes, even being afraid of not being in enough wonder, telling myself, "Okay, now I'm gonna walk around the world and wonder all the time. Oh, goddammit, I'm not doing it. Oh." So even that fear might be enough to cause us to start closing down. How do you keep the wonder channel open?

Yeah, it's a great question. It's far more of an undoing than it is a doing. Effort is one of the things that makes wonder more difficult. So, but the trick is, when, when I say it's an undoing, if I say, okay, now I have to go and do wonder and I have to be in a wonder state of mind, that immediately makes it harder to be in a wonder state of mind. But there's no moment where if you look, there's not something you're curious about. So just keep it really simple. All you have to You know, like, just look around your room right now. There's something that's, that's like wondrous. You don't know even how the bedsheets were made. You don't know who made them. You don't know, like, if the company still exists. You don't know about the detergents. You don't like— and, and if you happen to be one of those people who knows exactly that, then you don't know about the paint. There's never a moment, especially when you're with somebody else, or when you're in nature, when there isn't this opportunity for awe. And so to try to get there takes you away, but to just recognize that there's something in you— and, and if you see this with like kids, they're just in a state of wonder all the time. I remember this psychological study of when children are most likely to smile when they're infants, and it's not when they're about to be fed, which is what they thought. And they did this by facial positions of what a kid would see before feeding and It's when they're in being engaged where there's learning happening. And young kids just love to learn until it gets kicked out of them by a parent or a teacher or something like that. Curiosity is our nature. It's absolutely our nature, which means basically being in wonder and investigating and woo. It's like, it's in our nature. And so all you have to do is undo everything that's taking you away from your nature. That's it. And, and that's— it's simple. It's just like, what, what is wonderful about this? What, what am I awestruck about? What, what am I curious about in a way that I don't need to find an answer? Just what, what am I going to say next?

What are some, like, examples or steps or pointers that we could bring from this, this podcast into our lives to cultivate a deeper sense of wonder?

Practice is good. You know, it's just asking yourself, what, what am I in wonder about right now? It's just like, if you just do that 10 times a day, that's a pretty tremendous way to get there. Um, it's a, it's really a point of view of looking at the world. If you think about, um, a little kid and he's picking up a frog for the first time and how they, how he looks or she looks at that frog, like, that's the way you can look at life. That's the way you can look at your business. If you were to say, just for a second, if you had two people who were looking at a business and both of them had the same level of knowledge, let's say, and one of them was looking at it with immense wonder and one of them was looking at it with like, I'm trying to solve the problem. What do you think is going to happen with those two people? And so how do you inspire that in yourself is really just, it's just a question of intention. It's not a question of doing. It's not a question of effort. It's just a question of getting in touch with that part. And, and if you ever are not there and you can't find your way there, then I really suggest looking at the context of something or questioning the assumption of something.

What do you mean by that?

Questioning the assumption is a great way to also get out of partiality, um, and to become impartial as well. Um, but it means that If I say to you, life is challenging because I don't have enough work, there's so many assumptions in that, right? There's an assumption that it's challenging not to have enough work. There's an assumption that I don't have enough work. There's an assumption that I should have more work. All of those things, instead of— there could be other assumptions. There could be assumptions like, oh wow, I have free time to start my own business. It could say, oh wow, there's something here that's asking me to— an opportunity here to take my marketing to the next level. There's all sorts of assumptions that one can make about having less work one week than, say, the next week, or one year, say, to the next year. And so questioning the assumption that's in your mind is one of the quickest ways to get to wonder, or in somebody else's mind is one of the quickest ways. And then also to question the context, right? So, I don't have enough work in America is very different than I don't have enough work in Africa, which is very different than I don't have enough work in Iceland. Or like, they're different experiences. And so what's happening there? What, like, what makes you think your truth is truth everywhere, or even true for you right now? Because not having enough work for me is priceless. It's like that, that free time is lovely.

So with, with every tool like this, there's, there's always ways that they can be used in a way that's performative or inauthentic. And I've definitely found myself in a number of conversations where it felt like the other person was pretending to be interested in me, as if they were acting out of some sort of like a curiosity script. And this kind of interaction feels really creepy and probing.

How do we—

how can we cultivate an authentic state of wonder without creeping people out as we like practice and try to, try to be in wonder?

Yeah, these are some of the— you're touching on some things that make— like, if wonder gets a little tilted, um, it can become a strategy, and as soon as it becomes a strategy, it starts to feel creepy. So I know people who are always asking questions, but that's just to avoid any kind of intimacy. About themselves. I know people who are asking questions because it's their way of trying to create intimacy, but if you're trying to create intimacy, it doesn't— it's not intimacy. Um, so yes, I see that happen a lot, and the, the answer simply is that, like, don't be inauthentic. The most simple answer is don't use this as a strategy. Like, have wonder for the sake of wonder, for, for the, for the gifts that it brings, for the the feelings and sensations in your body that it creates, like that awe creates, and, and, and be there. It's far more enjoyable than to be strategic about it or to try to avoid intimacy. Uh, those are both far more painful states of existence to be in. So that's the easiest way to say it. Um, I guess being a—

being strategic about it, like, implies that there's a certain outcome that you're trying to get. Which is a certain kind of knowing, right?

Or a defense you're trying to— yeah, an outcome through defending yourself. Um, and, and if people are creeped out, if you really want to get into wonder, and if you notice that like you're asking questions and they start resisting, you can just be in wonder about that. You can be like, oh, what's making you feel creeped out right now? And they might say like, what, like, I feel like I'm being probed, I feel like I'm under investigation. And then you can be vulnerable or correct or say, oh wow, what— well, what do you want to ask me? You know, you can also just apologize and say, I'm sorry, like, yeah, I was kind of— I was kind of asking you questions as a way to avoid myself, or to, you know, or as an experiment, or whatever your, your ulterior motive was. Yeah, it's, it's really all— the whole thing is in a frame of mind. And that's when we get back to that thing, view is a, is a state of mind. And if you start it starts becoming a technique, it'll just cease to work, at least most of the time.

In a lot of conversations, the, the context of the conversation is built around us being looked at as an expert or the holder of knowledge. This can happen often in work, like in consulting or sales or speaking, or your role in this podcast, for instance. How do you stay in wonder when you or your ideas are themselves the topic of discussion or in the spotlight, and you're expected to be delivering information rather than consuming it.

I think I gave a talk, uh, I think a couple, three times, and like the very beginning of my talk was like, I have no idea what I'm about to say. Like, I, I purposely got here on the stage without preparation on purpose. The only thing I had in my mind was to not be prepared when I came on the stage because I want to talk about how, what what life is like in this state of just being in this moment and seeing what happens, seeing what comes out. So oftentimes during all these podcasts, there's— I'm, I am curious and, and in wonder of what— I'm curious about what's going to come out of my mouth, and I'm in wonder of what does come out of my mouth often. And almost just similarly, which is, which is ridiculous— this actually might make everybody lose a little faith— I'm also— people will tell me, they'll be like, oh, this thing happened on your podcast, that was so great. And I'm like, really? I said that? I have no recollection of it. And sometimes I'm quite impressed with what I say, and sometimes I'm like, oh, that's a little off. To me, being in the question with somebody is far more valuable. And when I think about the idea of, like, let's say you watch a normal TED Talk where there's somebody who's really there explaining some piece of knowledge, and it's like absolutely, totally fascinating about it. It's like, it's a wonderful thing to listen to, and, and it's, it's made even more wonderful if you see their own awe of the situation, if you see that they're still in the question, that, that someplace in there, there's a question that they're still living in. And then you, then you really want to be there with them.

Yeah, it's like they're inviting you into the question with them and showing you a map of what they've seen so far.

Yeah, that's exactly right. And that's a whole different way than like, you know, hey, I got my TED Talk, I'm gonna tell you what's what, and I'm gonna tell you the conclusion to have, and I'm gonna tell you there's no more questions left. Like, you just see people are more likely to bristle, you know, unless they happen to agree with this person or they've never thought about it before. So that's the other thing. And the other thing that happens when you're in that state of wonder as the expert, as the knower, It happens to me all the time. You've witnessed this, is people are like, I don't agree with you. And I'll be like, yeah, I don't agree with me entirely either. Like, I get— because as soon as I switch the context, I can see, oh yeah, that's, that's not true. I can be speaking one moment about, you know, freedom of choice, that there's choice. And that's a very useful thought for somebody who feels stuck and, and feels like they are, you know, are a victim of things. And so yeah, I'll talk all about choice, and then somebody can say, you know, man, there's no choice, it's all grace. And I'll be like, yep, totally, it's so true. I can't even decide what to think. I can't even decide to stop thinking entirely, you know, or forever. So yeah, I don't have control over that. And so if I don't even have control over the most basic things, then how can I have control over everything else? I don't have any choice. And, and so if you're in that state of wonder, there's no personal attachment to the knowledge, and there's the ability to see the other sides of it and to start understanding the context. And that's— I mean, that's where a tremendous amount of freedom is. Yeah, right, because most of our pain comes from defending an idea.

Yeah, that wonder about our, about our choice or our internal experience is interesting because each of these tools brings brings its own interesting twist when we direct them inward. Uh, like, what, what happens when we have wonder for ourselves and for our experience?

Uh, it's really sweet. It's really— it's like, it's like a little slice of heaven to be in a state of wonder about your internal experience. I, I am like— there's a time in meditation for a while where I just— all I did was focus on the unknown. I would just be silent with my eyes closed, and I would just focus on what I didn't know. It's a really cool experience if you, if you get a chance, um, if you want to make a chance for yourself to do that. It's so sweet. And it's also sweet because all the things that you tell yourself, that inner critic, just like it starts to lose all of its grip if you're able to focus on the wonder. So when your voice says you gotta eat less, you have to work out more, whatever you need to have a nicer butt, like, and that is met with wonder. Well, what's, what's the nicer butt gonna get me? Then I'll have somebody maybe who loves me for my butt. If I look in the world at the people with the nicest butts, like, do they have the life I want? What, what's happening here? Like, yeah, there's so much freedom.

And people could be in an entirely different context there where it's like, well, if I have a nice butt, then I'm going to get a lot of attention. I don't want the attention. I don't want a bunch of creepy guys.

So Um, or, or creepy girls.

Or girls. I don't know why I used that from the other.

Um, yeah, so, so yeah, that's the— it's just, it's a, it's a quite a lovely existence to be in wonder about yourself. It's far more neat instead of being like, this is how I am and this is how I need to change, to be like, I wonder what I'm gonna do next. I wonder what's making me do this again.

What's your favorite example of a, of a moment when bringing a little wonder to the moment changed everything for you?

An example recently, like last night, uh, we, we, we've left California because of the fires and the smoke, and so we went to Arizona and we took our girls out to a stunning lake. And when we were driving back, there is this steakhouse and there is, um, political signs that were in contrast with my daughter's political beliefs. So my daughters are young, but, you know, societally right now there's a lot of fire over the political system. A lot of people believe in really strong— have really strong— and so my girls have adopted some of that stuff. And then when I see these signs on a restaurant, which is pretty bold in America to, you know, potentially say no to half of your clientele because you're so enamored of a political candidate. So my daughters didn't like this political candidate, and I was like, okay, we're going to go eat there. Let's go eat. And, and they were so— one was scared and one was like, no, I don't want to, I don't want to deal with these people. And, and I was saying, well, how is that any different than racism? Like, if, if what you think they're doing is is ignorant. Like, how do you— we're not in control of our own ignorance just as much as we're not in control of our own race. So what makes it okay to just not even want to be around? And that was the beginning of the wonder. And so we ended up— we have this new puppy, and all of a sudden, some of the people around us were loud and boisterous. It was, you know, a desert bar kind of steakhouse thing, and they were, you know, made the kids even more anxious for a while. And then all of a sudden, the dog got into, like, and there was like, all of a sudden there's this connection. And then there was the waiter was super nice. And there was just like, all of a sudden, it was just like we were humans together again. And as we were driving home, I heard both of my daughters see, interestingly, see some of the wisdom on the other side of the political argument. To be able to see like, "Oh, I see how they would view things this way, given this circumstance, given this thing." not that they agreed with it or disagreed with it anymore, but it was just this— it was just like it— like their heart opened up because they were in wonder about this whole situation. It was, it was an incredibly beautiful thing to watch. Um, and I think that that's the way it is all the time. We come across our knowing and we don't want it to be messed with because we don't want that feeling of uncertainty. And it's amazing What wonder does is like uncertainty doesn't matter in wonder. Like, it's just, it's quite lovely.

Yeah.

Wow.

That's, that is beautiful. How can we expect our lives to change as we deepen our wonder?

More joy, more awe, quicker progress, uh, deeper relationships. It changes stuckness. It opens up stuckness, uh, more intimacy. You know, shit like that. All those, all those cool and groovy things, man. I— it's just life is better and, and we're more capable, we're more competent. You can be certain and still be in wonder. I think that's, I think that's the complication that people have a hard time understanding. You know, I know in my business what the next step is. I don't know that it's going to be the right step. I don't know that a better next step isn't going to show up a second from now. And it's not like I'm not in wonder of like, wow, how is this the best step? But I have a certainty over my next step. I know the next thing that I'm called to do. When I'm talking to somebody, I might be completely baffled by what's coming out of my mouth, which is like a constant state of being. But I know that this— whatever comes out is the thing that's supposed to be coming out, right? So I'm not questioning myself. I'm not like, I'm not like, well, is that the right thing? Is that— how did that— it's just there's a knowing of my truth. There's a knowing of, of like a process that works. And if somebody comes up with something else, I can totally be like, oh, what am I missing? What's happening here? What, what am I not seeing? And so it doesn't stop me from being certain. It doesn't stop me from But it stops me from thinking that I know. That's what it stops me from, right? I don't think that I know. I just, I just know what the right next step is for me or for what I'm here to do. And I only know that that's the right next step. For instance, if I'm taking the right next step, it might be just to find out how bad I've done it or how wrong it is or how messed up that idea was. It might be to learn, it might not be to succeed. And, and it might be that I take that step only to find out, oh, I need to go back the other way. So there's a certainty that I'm living with that is not at all in conflict with wonder. And I think that's something that people get confused about in wonder.

Yeah, I think that relates back to the, uh, dissociation version of like not really in wonder, but like that, that story earlier in the episode.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it's— so I just, I just say like being in wonder doesn't mean that you're not clear on the actions that you're taking. It's not, it's not that you're not clear on like, oh, I, from my experience, this is the thing to do, and then you're totally open that something might stand against it this time.

So you're in the clarity but also ready to update what you think the next step is. Constantly surveying for new information.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's the same way that mice move, right? I mean, mice and other small mammals are desperately curious animals, but then it doesn't make them hesitate. They're going about their day, they're sticking to the sides of the wall, collecting seeds, like making decisions about left or right at, you know, every 2 seconds with clarity. And yet they have this deep level of like, what's this? What's this? How do I— can I get through here? You know, like What's happening? What's happening?

Unless they're traumatized and freeze up in fear, right? Which is what we do sometimes.

Exactly. Yes, you can traumatize animals too. Yeah.

So let's, let's tie all of this back into view and like a, like a view conversation. How can, can you summarize some pointers that we could bring, that we could use to bring more wonder into our, our view conversations?

Yeah, the most important is just to follow your wonder. Like it's a trail and just follow it in the conversation about the other person, about yourself in the conversation. Just follow it. And if you're going to have to hold an agenda, right, if you're going to be partial about anything, be partial about staying in wonder. Like, that's the thing. And, and, and you're treating it, like I said, like a kid holding a frog or a lizard for the first time. Uh, also just seek what you don't know, right? So oftentimes, you know, you'll be presented with data from the— a person— my mother did this, my father did this, and This is how it's affecting me. And what is it then to say, what do I not know? So I just got told all this information, and, and there's a thought process that the first thing I'm supposed to do is take all this information and then spit out a good question. What if the thing you're supposed to do is first find out all the things you don't know? Because often things— if someone tells you the story, they're telling you all the things that they know. So there's no new information. But if you start focusing on what you don't know, it might also be stuff that they don't know. So that's another thing that you can do. Um, and then as we talked about, questioning the context and the assumptions— those are all ways to be, you know, in wonder. But more importantly, it's like to be in awe of what's happening for that person. It might be, you know, you have this friend and you have a friend who's constantly telling you about how the boyfriend isn't working, and you're just like, uh, Oh my God, stop talking to me about this, right? I mean, we all have this friend and, or have had this friend at some point in our life who is in their loop, and then they bring us into it with a conversation every week or so. And like, what's, what are you in wonder about there? What's the thing that you don't know? What's the thing that you have just like, how, how, how, like even maybe the question is, how do you keep doing this? What is it that's working for you here that keeps you in this relationship? There's just— there's something there always. And so that's where you can go. And it's a lot easier to find if you're not trying to lead them anywhere, because then it's just the natural thing that arises in you.

All right, so let's, let's close this episode a little bit differently. I'd love for you to tell me about your most spectacular epic fail, wonder faceplant, like a moment where just a little more wonder could have gone a long way but you just didn't have it.

Oh, oh, good. Um, let's see, the biggest one. Uh, so in college I had the, the honor of being kicked out of my first college. Beyond that, I had the honor of having like a 3.95 grade point average and getting kicked out of my college at the same time. And, and that could only be done if I was unknowing instead of wonder. So the way it worked was, uh, because of my upbringing, that, like, rebellion was really the thing for me. Like, that was my caricature. And, and, uh, and so I went to college and they had all these rules. It was the beginning of, like, a stronger morality in college, or they— the college decided that there was going to be some moral education as well as just— and so And I really didn't like it. I didn't like it at all. And so I rebelled against it. That was like my thing. And I was being a punk, like there's no doubt about it. And people would come in and put signs in the dorm and it would block the windows. And, you know, the signs would be Christian Fellowship or whatever those things were. And I'd just take down the signs like, hey, if you can just cover my windows, I can just uncover my windows. And, you know, the, the people of power in the room, or whatever, of apparent power in the room, said like, what are we going to do about this? I'm like, I pay rent, I'm going to keep on taking the signs down. That was my attitude because I was, I was right in my mind, right? I couldn't see their context, and I was right. I was like, you don't have the right to do this. And, and there was other things, you know, where the different things— I mean, I got, I got busted once drinking in my room. There's people who got busted like smoking pot like 10 times, and Nothing ever happened, but I got busted once and I was on a roof once, not correctly and whatever. And I had, anyways, I got kicked out of the dorms or I got in trouble for one of these things that I did. 355M of the California Penal Code, annoying phone conversation. And, you know, the powers that be were really annoyed with me because I was not being compliant and, and I was not like buying into the whole situation and And so I went to the ombudsman and I said, hey, like, this is ridiculous. And he's like, yeah, yeah, it's totally ridiculous. Just say you're sorry. I was like, I'm not sorry and I don't want to be sorry. And, and he was like, yeah, but if you don't, you're gonna like get kicked out of college. And it's like, it's a kangaroo court. I mean, this is the ombudsman, right? The person who's supposed to— he's like, he's just nothing. Like, you just say I'm sorry and you'll get a slap on the wrist. Well, I didn't say I was sorry. I, um, I had the longest court thing that they had ever had. And I had RAs defending me. I had a petition of 300 people. I had my professors come in and talk about how I contributed. And all of this, all it did was just piss these people off more and more and more. I was like just flying in the face of them. I wasn't on a learning journey with them at all, at all. And so, and I, so then I got the response and they were like, okay, well, so here's our agreement. We're going to kick you out of school for a year and going to kick you out of the dorms for life. And, and I had a history professor who didn't know me at the time say, uh, he said, he said, um, how can I expect you to go out into the world and have healthy children if this is the way you're going to behave?

Wow.

Yeah, it was, it was something. Uh, so On some way that luckily I was still in my knowing after that. And so I threatened to sue the school and the 355M of the California Penal Code, annoying phone conversation that never landed. And so there was no charges. But the school, you know, these authority figures at the time, they did their thing. And I mean, no doubt I was an ass. And so I just said, I'm going to sue you guys. This is ridiculous. You can't do this., and the dean of students who wasn't involved was like, yeah, this is like utterly ridiculous. And so he suspended me for a quarter and out of the dorms for a year. And then I switched schools. What I learned in that process was that being right doesn't mean anything. Like having the best database doesn't make you the best database company. Having— we have this idea that being right is important, but being like all the people who are right the most, like what? What has it gotten them? And does it even increase their odds of success or happiness or good relationships? Then I remember it striking me like, yeah, I can't look back and say that I was wrong. I can't look back and say that nowadays— I can't look back and even say that they were wrong. I think we were both, um, ignorant because we were both in, and so on some level of war with ourselves and each other. But we, none, none of us got any closer to understanding ourselves and each other in the process. None of us made any progress. They didn't have a better dorm because of it. They, they weren't happier people because of it.

Neither was I. Um, what was, what was stopping you from being in the wonder throughout that whole experience?

Oh, I had a self-definition of being right. It was really important in my family of origin to be right. You know, like if there'd be debates or arguments or yells and whatever they were, then if you weren't right, you were going to get it worse. So you had to prove yourself to be right. And so I was— I identified with being right at the time. I identified with a fairness, and I was going to fight for that fairness. And now it's like, kind of, how does that help me to be right? Like, what am I? What am I? Do I, do I want the answer to be right? I don't want— I don't care if the answer is right. That's not the answer I want to the question, what am I?

Reminds me of a conversation I had a while back where somebody just like paused me in the middle of the conversation. They're like, it seems like you're being very right right now. How could we optimize for connection? Like, oh, oh, I see.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, that's what I was in a conversation with the college about, being right. And I mean, it was the fortunate piece. I mean, this is the, the thing is like, I was completely certain about this stuff at the time, and it led me into a job for the time that I was suspended, which was caring for developmentally disabled kids. It was a job that I got quickly, and I And I got promoted quickly, and then I was in charge of this house of kids and these residents, and that was who I was, and that's what I was doing at the time. And, like, talk about seeing that you can have connection with people who are not even capable of being a quarter of his right, right? Like, developmentally disabled people is like, even a thought process, a complicated thought process is not really at their fingertips. And yet they could be beautiful people. They could be— you could have a deep connection with them. And so I learned the lesson. I learned the lesson that being right had nothing to do with, you know, anything that was important to me.

Often, often their thought processes are more complicated in a different direction than you didn't— than you expected. And there's actually something brilliant behind it. Yeah. Or, or beautifully simple that you'd overlooked. Yeah.

If you sat in wonder with these guys, you were, you were in for a treat. You know, there was— there, it was frustrating at times too, no doubt, but it was— you were often in for a treat if you could just sit and wonder with them and see the world through their eyes. Yeah.

Well, that wraps it up for view. And, um, thank you very much, Joe. And I wonder what our next episode will be. Me too.

Oh, thanks, Brett. It was a pleasure as always.

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