Your World is a Projection

People think somebody who really sees through projections is really smart because they come up with really cool, unique, innovative ideas, or they act in a way that's seemingly not normal, but yet it works. And it's not so much really that they're smart or not smart, it's that they don't see the same level of limitation on everything that somebody who fully buys into their projections sees.

Welcome to The Art of Accomplishment, where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease. I'm Brett Kistler, here today with my co-host Joe Hudson. Today we're going to talk about projections. So Joe, you've talked about projections a lot in our courses, uh, this idea that, that from our past experience we create these beliefs that we carry into the present and that this shapes our reality in the moment. And I'd like to get into that a little bit further today. So Joe, what are projections?

It is such a complicated subject because the word projection is used for many things, right? So there's the psychological projection, which is, you know, somewhat stems from like Jung's work and some other psychologists. And that's this idea that the parts of ourselves that we can't own, the parts of ourselves that are either good or bad, but that we can't have full ownership over, we project onto other people. And this is something that happens when you're deeply triggered. So an easy way to look at this just briefly is you look at most politicians, and if you see them like really just accusing somebody else of something, you can see a way in which that is true about what they're doing as well. So, or if you're dealing with somebody, they're like, "Oh my God, they're so arrogant." Like that comment in itself is arrogance, right? It's like, as if you can presume to know what their reality is. So that's projecting the unknown parts of ourselves. And it can be positive things too. Like, "Oh my gosh, they're so smart. They're so, they understand everything and I don't." that can also be unowned parts of ourselves, positive unowned parts of ourselves that we then project onto other people. So there's that, and that's what we'll call psychological projection. And then there's this projection onto the world. And that's more about how we lived our first 8 or 9 years of life when we're in theta brainwaves and where we're basically learning what life is. And we might learn that like love is associated with shame, or money is associated with lack, or authority is associated with anger. And then we go and recreate those projections in our life because we're like, okay, that's what we learned it is. And so you go out into the world, you're in your 20s, your 30s, your 40s, and you find out that everybody who you choose to have a romantic relationship with has a tendency to shame you, or that you see money as something that's— there's not enough of, and then you don't— you're not able to have the money that you want or need. So there's that, that kind of projection onto the world. And then there's like the projection of self. And the projection of self, which is closely related to the next projection, but I, I wanted to— want to make a distinction between the two. The projection of self is that we don't really see the world, we see ourselves. And so, or we don't really see reality, we see ourselves in reality. And so that would be like if somebody is a thief, they see the world as a world of thieves. If somebody has a deep relationship of self-love, then they see the world as love. And even when they see the atrocities of the world, they see it as people trying to love themselves and they're not capable. So the way that we see ourselves and relate to ourselves then is how we interpret the world. So that's another level of projection, the projection of self. And then the final projection that I see is the projection of I, which I'm making a distinction here, though there's not a real one, but I think it's useful to make the distinction. And that's just the idea that there is a you that is separate, right? So we have this identity. The way humans work is we have a sense of identity, and we don't know if other animals have that sense of identity, but we have a sense of identity. And at the very core of that sense of identity is the idea that there is an I that exists as separate. And like a tremendous amount of spiritual modalities, Ramana Maharishi is like kind of the, the most known example where a lot of the work is really to see the self not as something to be protected, not as the body, not as an emotional state, not as something that's existed for 45 years or whatever it is, but as illusionary in nature, or to see the self as the awareness of all those things. And that's the last way that I think about projection. So it's those 4 ways that I think about projection.

Okay. So yeah, so those 4 basically are, you've got psychological projection where you are projecting onto essentially someone else's psychology, kind of making assumptions about their intent or their experience.

And in that case, it's disowned parts of yourself, parts of yourself that you don't fully want to accept about yourself.

Oh, okay. Yeah. And these can be like parts that you judge about yourself, but also parts that you judge about yourself not having, like—

Correct.

Like in the case of admiration towards somebody.

Yeah. And they can be, specifically, they can be things things that you don't actually see in yourself, right? It's so disowned that you can't even see it in yourself. So if you see somebody as like super brilliant, there's no person I've met that doesn't have their own level of brilliance in some capacity. And so if you see that, admire that, put that up on a pedestal, it's a strong indicator that you can't see it in yourself. Similarly, if you are like, that person's a thief, da da da da da, and you can't see that you also have that, in you and in your actions, then it's— that's the psychological projection.

Okay. Yeah. So that's the psychological projection. And then you've got the projection onto the world, which is sort of your, your baked-in assumptions about how the world works from your early childhood experience.

Yes. Right.

Then you've got this projection of self, uh, really like a projection. So this isn't a projection onto yourself, but it's a projection of yourself onto the world, seeing the world as the way that you are internally organized.

Correct. That's right. So I use the example of like the saint in love, but it's, you know, if you think that it's really important to be dressed and put together, then you're likely to think it's important for other people to be dressed and put together. That's like the simple version of it. And so what's good or bad for you is good or bad for the world. The way that you see yourself and relate to yourself is the way that you relate to the world.

Right, so if it's weak for you to cry, then it's weak for others to cry.

Correct, yeah, great, great example, yeah.

Okay, and then the last one is the projection of I, which is you're distinguishing from the projection of self, as this one is more of a like meta-projection that you are a separate self from the world.

Yeah, that you have an identity.

Yeah, that there's some boundary that is you.

Correct, right? So if you think about that, like if I cut you in half, if you think you're your body and I cut you in half, which half is you?

Or a split-brain experiment, you know, where they cut the corpus callosum and then people had basically two very separate identities, each controlling half of the body at odds with each other.

Exactly. Or people think I'm emotional. Well, you were emotional, but what happens if that emotion just stops? Are you still emotional? Like, is it essentially you? What is essentially you is the question. It's in Ramana Maharishi's language, it's like, who am I? The deconstruction work of almost all spiritual traditions are getting to the basic underlying question of what are you essentially? What is it that you are, that you have always been, that from the moment of birth to the moment of death, what's the unchangeable, immutable part of yourself?

Right, which I suppose is really just a process of seeing through projections of the self.

Yes.

Which changes our experience of the world as we do that.

Yes.

So as you mentioned emotions, like how do emotions play into projections? How do they interact?

When we have big emotions, we learn differently, right? Part of how people brainwash folks is that they have, they create big emotional experiences for them and then that's what allows them to change habits, right? When we have big emotional experiences, it's when it allows us to learn. So if you want to redefine somebody's idea of themselves or idea of the world, Basic training is an example of this. You create these big emotional experiences and then they have a different sense of themselves at the end of it. So emotions are useful in that way, right? And they're evolved to do that. So if I get bit by a snake and I have this big emotional experience and a big physical experience, I am less likely to be bitten by that snake in the future. So what this does is it makes traumatic experiences really key definers of who we are, right? If we've had long-term abuse, or we had a car accident, or if we've been in a war, it starts to define us because it upends our learnings from those early days, and it changes, or maybe it even happens in those early days of life. And so they're really important that way. I think the nuance that people, often don't quite get is that oftentimes people recognize when they have big emotions that they are out of control of themselves, right? They're either, you could say they're acting in trauma, or you can say they recognize that when that big emotion takes control, they do stuff that they don't want to do. And so the natural movement when they see that correlation is they assume causation and in that assumption of causation, they say, I need to manage my emotions so that I don't have big emotions, or I need to be in control of my emotions. And what that path ultimately leads to is a level of disassociation. The emotions are still there, they're still moving us, but we disassociate from them. And so they become harder and harder to recognize. And the other way to think of it is to assume correlation, like, oh, these things are together and my job isn't to control them or suppress them or push them down, It is to learn how to surf them and to love them and to accept them deeply and to find the joy in them or to not resist them. And as if we take that step, then what happens is the emotional currents of our life become vitalizing. We fall in love with them. There still isn't the control, meaning that we don't find ourselves succumb to these big emotional experiences because we start to see that that is just another level of resistance. But we don't disassociate from them and we don't stop to see or recognize the massive impact that these emotional currents are having. Even if we've pushed them so far down that we don't feel them anymore, if we don't disassociate, we start to recognize that these big emotional currents in our life are more like road signs rather than causation. Hmm.

It almost sounds like you're describing sort of a chicken or egg thing with projections and emotions. Where the emotions that we have in our early youth, children are very emotional and that correlates highly with their learning rate and how quickly they soak up information like a sponge and they create these projections. And then we carry these projections into our lives and tend to see the world as it was when we were kids, which will then tend to bring us back into those emotions that we had when we were kids. And if we let ourselves feel those emotions and process them, then being in this emotional state can allow us to shift our projections.

Yeah, that's exactly it. I would say it's not that we only see the world, we create the world. When we're living in and through a projection, it's not just that we see the evidence that it's true, right? But you also attract the same experiences, right? And you also manipulate events to create the same experience. And on an emotional level, what's happening is that emotion that wasn't allowed to be felt all the way through, that wasn't allowed to move all the way through you, is looking to recreate circumstances so that it can move all the way through you, and then the circumstances stop getting recreated. So that's how it works on an emotional level.

Okay, so yeah, then feeling the emotion completely allows the projection to shift into I don't know, maybe some generalized form, because it seems like a projection is sort of a limiting perception on the world.

Yeah, and that doesn't mean that they're bad or good, right? They're just kind of useful or more useful or less useful, meaning like I project onto snakes that they're deadly, right? Right. And now obviously all snakes aren't deadly, and I might find a snake and think it's deadly and jump away, but it's not deadly. And so the question is, what are the projections that are useful, that create peace and joy, productivity, love in our lives, purpose, whatever it is that one thinks that they're after? And what are the projections that create the things that we're not after? And this is why it's so difficult for people to— like, when you're doing the work, when you're doing the the deep work, the stuff that was programmed in the early days, right? Like if you were lucky enough to have parents that just deeply loved you and were attuned to your emotional experience and wanted you to feel safe and protected and weren't emotionally trying to cajole you into certain emotions and not other emotions, then it's really easy for you to reproduce that kind of love in your life. But if you didn't get that, then it's, more challenging. So it is those early projections that we now, because we have a rational conscious mind, we can say, okay, is that the world I wanna live in? Do I wanna live in a world where love is conditional or love is shame or love is control? Or do I wanna live in a world where love can be different? And we have the choice and then the work is not just feeling the emotions, but falling in love with them on an emotional level. Intellectually, to be able to just see them, to just identify them can be incredibly freeing. And then to work with them and say, "Oh, wow, I'm in a projection. What if I take a contrary action?" So intellectually, that's that way to work on them.

Right, right. So it also sounds like falling in love with the projections is part of this path too, because I've definitely seen and experienced in the process of discovering that projections exist and that everybody's doing them, there can be a process of like, "Oh, I've identified a projection. That's bad." Projections are bad, which is just another way of disowning yourself. The only way that you can navigate a chaotic world is to create some kind of sense-making system of projections.

Yeah, I've never thought about it as falling in love with projections, but I think that's beautifully said. That's right. Fighting against your projections is only a way that increases their stability.

Yeah, it's like, I imagine going, birdwatching, but you don't like birds, how many of them are you gonna find? You know, like if you love finding a projection, it's like, oh wow, I'm projecting right now, cool. That might be useful. Also, it might be useful to do it a little bit differently or to experiment with it a little bit.

Yes, and it's great 'cause that's when you say, how many birds will you find? It's like proof. So for instance, if you talk to somebody and you say, hey, tell me about a trauma that you had. And let's say that their trauma was that when I was a kid, I had a dad who would always yell at me. And the lesson that I learned was that I had to be quiet to not get yelled at. Let's just say, let's keep it simple. And so that's the data that they picked up. The data that they didn't pick up was the ways that they still asserted themselves even by not speaking up. They didn't learn that, wow, I can survive a, a tyrant in my home. Not that I have to, but I can. The information that they didn't pick up was that mom was actually loving me the whole time, or I didn't pick up the information that dad did love me from time to time, and that there was kind of this love that was available. So what's interesting is our brain is adapted to pay more attention to the negative things. And so, Oftentimes, one of the ways we recreate these things is to only see the evidence that supports the pattern, the projection.

So what is, what is the practice then of becoming more aware of these projections and re-engineering them?

I mean, it's different for the different levels of, of projection, right? So in psychological, in the psychological projection, like everywhere you're triggered, you're projecting. An unowned part of yourself. That's just— it doesn't mean that you shouldn't be triggered. It doesn't mean that you're not right. It just means that you're also projecting it onto somebody else. So every time that you're triggered is a great example of how you are projecting a disowned part of yourself, or any way in which you idolize somebody, you're projecting a disowned part of yourself. So that's a good way to work on the psychological projection. The projection on the world is just a really easy thing to do is just like list out 10 things that are important to you, like money, love, authority, decision-making, whatever they are. And then ask yourself, what was the essential learning you had from your childhood about money and love and authority? And notice how you're recreating those things. Right? And notice, notice how you're manipulating the world into it. And I'll give you an example in a second here, how you're attracting it, and notice how you're proving it. So an example of this is, you know, just like almost everybody at some point in their life, you know, you keep on dating the same person with different names. And so I used to like attract or create this world in which I was going to be emotionally abandoned. So one of the things that I did was I attracted people who were more likely to emotionally abandon me, right? And I was attracted to them. The other thing I did was I manipulated the world to do that, right? So when, you know, I felt unheard, instead of saying, "Ouch, I feel unheard and I'd really like to be heard," I'd be, "Gotta get angry. You're not hearing me," because I was in my trauma. And then that, of course, push them away even further. And then I would look around the world and I would see, see, that person emotionally abandoned me and that person emotionally abandoned me, but I wasn't noticing all the people who weren't, or who really wanted not to and I wasn't allowing to, right? That I was abandoning them. So that's the way to look at it as far as like that level of projection. And then on the projection of I, I mean, the easiest thing to do is just say, "What am I?" and really sit in the question rather than to look for an answer. But there's other things that you can do as well, which is just notice the part of yourself that's always been there or put your attention onto attention. There's lots of things that help you see through the false sense of identity and the kernel of that identity being that you exist as a separate thing, or as a non-separate thing even, that the kernel of the identity is that I exists.

Another area that I've heard this concept, that kind of a metaphor here, is something called like object fixation or target fixation. Like if you're flying a parachute and you want to land in a field, but there's a tree in the field, if you look at the tree, you're probably going to hit the tree. Or like driving a motorcycle around a corner. If you look into the ditch, you're gonna go into the ditch.

Yeah. That's a beautiful metaphor. I really, I really like that metaphor.

And yeah, there, there's been like lots of times in my life where I've seen some kind of disaster coming in business or like in a relationship and I'm like not wanting it, but I'm just like scared of it, which makes me think of it more, which makes me see the, see and look for the evidence of it more and not see the other paths available to me. And then the thing happens.

Yeah.

I'm all surprised for some reason.

Yeah, yeah. Like right now, I got in touch with an old friend and he's in a state of believing that he is bad and incapable. And so you can watch this reality that he's living in create itself, right? So he needs to do something at his job. And he doesn't want to feel the anger of his boss, so he doesn't do the thing that he needs to do to make sure that the job is done right, 'cause he's trying to avoid the anger. And then by not doing the thing he needs to do, he's got more evidence that he's bad and incapable, because he's trying to avoid the feeling of being bad and incapable by being yelled at by his boss, right? Like, so that's how the whole thing moves. It's like, as we see ourselves, as a certain way, subconsciously or consciously, we're recreating that over and over and over again.

Right. So then that's how this ties into this, like, projection of I sort of being the base level projection of all of these, really. Because the more you see yourself as any certain thing defined by any particular characteristics or identity, then that's going to set the context for the projections you're going to have in your relationships and in the world and upon yourself.

Yeah, that's right. Unfortunately, even if you see through the eye, it doesn't really resolve the emotional stuff, right? So you can have a lot of cognitive freedom, you can have a lot of intellectual freedom when you see through the personal eye, when you have that kind of awakening, but it doesn't change the emotional experience of stuff. In fact, it can make the emotional experience harder to access. Because it starts operating at a more dissociated way or in a lower level way, harder to recognize way. So the freedom of the intellect is great, but it's far more productive to meet it with the emotional freedom as well, with the loving of all the experiences that are, all the emotional experiences that are happening.

Yeah, that's really interesting to me. 'Cause like, I'm very intellectual, like, I don't know, heavily weighted on the intellectual personally. And so like the more I start to recognize some of my own projections, they can easily just become a way to be not good enough. 'Cause I'm like, oh man, I'm still living in this. I don't know how to get out of this particular projection, but I see it, you know, but I'm frustrated by it now. So then there's this layer of frustration as an emotion to feel on top of whatever emotion is driving that projection to begin with.

Yeah, that's one way it happens. Another way it happens is that the emotional scenery becomes more and more in the background, but it's still driving you, right? Because I know we've talked about this, is that, you know, we can't make decisions intellectually. All of our decision-making is emotional. Like, if you remove the emotional center of a brain, then a person ceases to make decisions even though their intellect is— their IQ is still operating at the same level. And so the emotions are still moving us, but they've become so far in the background. And there's this kind of way of saying, ah, well, nothing is real, nothing is true, there's no I. And yet all these emotional decisions are still happening, and still there's like this level of drama, drama and chaos in life. Even if you go and move to a monastery and, you know, it's still there.

What then is the way to take the information from this episode and understanding this existence of projections, become more aware of them, and use that as breadcrumbs into the emotional experience underlying them?

On the intellectual level, I think the underlying problem that people experience when they start to recognize projections is they will be confronted with the reality that everything is a projection. That there is no— there's nothing that we see or do that isn't a projection. And so if you want a direct experience of this, like, just look at a tree. It's better if you look at it like a living thing and see it as a tree. This is a tree. I see that's a tree. And then see it not as a tree. See it as like, oh, this is just this thing that's in front of me. No label, no projection, no, right, not, no need to identify, classify, and just be in the presence of the tree, right? This is what, when people talk about deep presence, this is what they're talking about, is to have a moment or two without like the projection operating at full speed. Not that it's not always operating, not that it's not accessible to us at any time, but to really just be in what is in this moment without any of the labels and stuff. And you can get that really direct sense of being more in projection and less in projection. So the issue that arises, like I was at least trying to, trying to say, was that at some point you see the whole world as a projection, the whole thing. There's no thought that you can fully trust. There's no emotional experience that you can fully trust. There's no body sensation that you can fully trust. It doesn't mean you can't trust it, but it is literally like the world becomes a kaleidoscope. And that's some scary shit, because if you interpret it as, I'm out of control, oh my God, it's a kaleidoscope, now I don't know what to do, I'm out of control, it can be very scary. It can be something that you really, really want to avoid. And so the idea of projection itself is something that often people will accept and embrace very slowly because they have to confront this thing. And if they do it really quickly, it's just really important. If you really can all of a sudden just see, "Oh wow, this whole world is a projection," it's really important to see that essentially that's not gonna stop you from operating at any level at all, right? It just is what is, and there's this huge freedom to it. There's just like, "Oh wow, I don't have to take anything seriously, and yet I can still enjoy myself, and yet I can still have purpose," and yet I can still be productive, but I can take everything with like this lighthearted joy that comes about. So that's the intellectual issue is that at some point you come across this idea that everything's a projection and you're like, oh crap, you know, there's this fear. As far as the emotional part goes, it's kind of different for people who haven't had the kind of identity of self switch to awareness or to the infinite. And those who have had that switch happen. If the switch hasn't happened, then leaning into your emotional states, loving your emotional states, inviting your emotional states, seeing that the emotional states, when they're out of control, is just another form of resistance, allowing them to move through your body, looking forward to them. That's the work. That's the really powerful work. If it's afterwards, that's the same work, but you have like another step on top of it, like a step for the before, which is to dig them out. It's to really deeply go in and look for the most nuanced little emotional shift and plumb the depths of that and almost magnify it. You know, one of the people who taught me about this stuff, he used to work with monks and I think he worked with Trappist monks and Tibetan monks and all sorts of monks. And he said, "When I do the work with them, it's like dragging them back into hell." Because they have to go back into the emotional experience that they had pushed so far into the background. And when that's happening, the thing is, is that you see people who have that peace but without the joy, when they have that calmness, but they don't have the exuberance of life, like if they don't laugh easily That's a pretty good indicator that the identity has shifted, but the emotional experience has been suppressed.

Yeah. So a lot of this conversation is reminding me of this, uh, there's kind of like a psychological test that can be conducted where you take, you think of an object and then you have like 10 minutes to write down how many uses for that object you could think of. Like, let's say for a brick, you might just, if like your projection would be that this is a brick, it is used for masonry and you could build a wall with it. But the more you start to see the brick just as an object, as just something that's not a brick, then you could start to see other purposes for it, like a counterweight for an elevator, or you could break it into sand and make Play-Doh out of it, or a million other uses. And I think the same thing can be true for an emotion that a projection might come from. We might be like, "Oh, I'm angry. That means somebody else has wronged me and it's their fault." It's like, okay, well, that's one projection of this emotion. But if I just go into the essence of the emotion and feel that, then what else might that mean for me? What else, what other richness might there be in that experience?

Yeah, that's cool. First of all, never heard it explained that way, which, and I'm really digging that. And then second of all, I thought you were talking about something different, which it also applies to, but so let's start with the emotional experience, right? Like that anger could be an indication that I haven't drawn the boundary I need to draw. That anger could be an indication that I'm not taking I'm not taking care of myself. That anger could be the indication that somebody's wronged me. And you're right, all of that is like levels of projection. The thing that I thought you were talking about, which also seems like a really cool idea to me, is the brick could be this, the brick could be that. It's the same with projections, right? So oftentimes something that happens when people start seeing through their projections, they have a lot more opportunity in front of them. They see a lot more options, like the array of possibilities opens up. Up to them. And so a lot of times people think somebody who really sees through projections is really smart because they come up with really cool, unique, innovative ideas, or they act in a way that's seemingly not normal, but yet it works. And it's not so much really that they're smart or not smart, it's that they don't see the same level of limitation on everything that somebody who fully buys into their projections sees.

Right, right. And that is something that I meant by that as well. I went into the emotion route, but really I think this applies everywhere. And this is really kind of a core of how view can change our lives. Because particularly impartiality and wonder, but also vulnerability for other people to have this experience with you, with getting more information and empathy, being curious about other people's experience and being with them in it. These characteristics or these traits lead us to have a more granular awareness of reality beyond the initial assumptions that we might have had. Even though those initial assumptions still exist and they still can guide our behavior and allow us to act quickly and effectively, the more we can become aware of them and the more we can see them for what they are, as projections, then the more granular our awareness of the world around us can be and the more we can start to see other possible interpretations of the world. Than the ones that we started with.

Again, I think it's the third time on this podcast. Yeah, I've never seen it that way. And it's such a beautiful articulation of it. It's such a great story to build around it because that's absolutely how it works when you look at it that way.

Of course, it's also just a projection.

And of course, it's also just a projection, right? That's the thing. So that's another thing that's really cool about this work is, you know, I mean, I know you've seen this in my work, but, you know, I'll go and pontificate on something, and, you know, because that, that's what I'm asked to do. And, and then they'll say, you know, you're totally wrong about that. And I'll be like, yep, that's true. Like, I can absolutely see the world in which everything that I'm saying is incorrect. And because I do, I can see that there is some correctness in every point of view and some fallacy in every point of view. And the fear for me when I was like entering into that that way of looking at the world was like, "Oh, shit, I'll never be able to act." You know, like, "How will I act if I don't know what's right and what's wrong?" Right. "How will I be able to act if I don't know, like, if I know that everything is and isn't true?" And you act the same way that you would if you were an animal or a dragonfly. Like, action still exists, and you're still processing information, and you're still having emotions. But what happens is you start choosing the projection that serves you best, the projection that allows for more freedom, that allows for more love, that allows for more joy, and you start choosing it, but you can't stop seeing through it. You just realize at some point, like, if all of it's true and not true, then I actually just get to be who I am, who I want to be.

Yeah. And I think the more that you accept all of your projections rather than labeling some of them as good or some of them as bad, then the more all of them can kind of be present in each moment and your entire past experience can sort of average out to one statistically most likely scenario to be one specific next step from each scenario that is likely to have the better outcome. But nothing is guaranteed.

Yeah. And you don't really give a shit if it's guaranteed or not, because whatever shows up in your field, it's not resisted and it's not labeled. You know, it's like, If I was to choose, hey, do I want to go to prison and love myself? Or do I want to stay out in the free world and hate myself? You know, it's like consequences become less important than the actual freedom to see yourself in the world in a way that is enlivening, that is joyful.

Yeah, that seems like a great stopping point for this episode. Do you have any integration questions for us, Joe?

So one question that arises is, if you write down 4 of the things that trigger you most in the world, in what ways are you judging or disowning that part of yourself? In what ways are you judging or disowning that part of yourself? Second question is, if you're looking deeply at Who you admire, who you put on a pedestal, what are the parts of them that you admire, and how do you not own that aspect of yourself? And the last question is, what's looking out behind your eyes?

Yeah, that's a good one.

And I encourage you not to answer that question, just be in it.

Wonderful. Thank you, Joe.

Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Brett.

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