Secrets to a Long-Lasting Musical Partnership with Joan Marsh - PHH 264

What if playing the harp felt easier the way you thought it would be? Not because you practiced more, but because you finally understood what was getting in your way. I'm Anne Sullivan, and welcome to Practicing Harp Happiness. Here we tackle the real challenges harpists struggle with: the sticky passages, the tricky fingerings, prepping for performance, and all the ingredients that go into making music sound the way you want it to. I've studied with world-class harpists, taught at a top conservatory for 20 years, and I love playing the harp. But what I love just as much is breaking down the real challenges harpists face and turning them into clear step-by-step solutions. The same ones I teach my students and use myself. So if you're ready to play the music you love with more confidence, clarity, and joy, you're in the right place. So let's get started. Welcome to the show. Here are some numbers to give you a little perspective before I introduce my guest today. The average length of a marriage in the United States is 20 years. Business partnerships, of course, don't do nearly so well, with nearly 70% failing within the first 5 years. We are not a society geared toward longevity. But musical partnerships are different from business partnerships, and they're certainly different from marriages, although they have elements of both. My own musical collaborations tend to be quite long-lasting, and the one I'm going to share today has not only survived but grown and prospered and is now in its 40th year. Yeah, that's right, that partnership is celebrating its ruby anniversary this year, and I'm proud to say that this partnership has been one of the most meaningful in my life. So it's about time I introduced you to my musical partner of 40 years, my flutist friend Joan Marsh. Together, Joan and I have performed and recorded together since 1986. Our partnership as the duo Sparks has been a constant through the births of our children and our grandchildren. It's been there through our own marriages, house movings, individual playing commitments, individual business ventures, and countless hairstyles. But while in this conversation we share all the usual details about, you know, working together and our duo history over these 40 years and why our partnership is still so important to us, I want to make sure you understand this one point: a shared musical journey is more rewarding than you can imagine. If you haven't tried it, you should, and it's vastly more rewarding than we will be able to tell you, but we're going to try. And of course, one of the reasons I want to bring this to you today is that together with our composer friend Louis-Anthony Delise, we have created a new event that speaks directly to the joy of making music together. And in the course of our conversation will tell you all about it. Naturally, I have the link to that event, the Chrysalis Music Collaborative Workshop, in the show notes. You'll be able to find it there, and I certainly hope you do go check it out. We'll tell you more about that in a little bit. Um, a couple of quick reminders, uh, My Heart Mastery members, we start our June, um, series of calls, uh, this month, and we have some things that are new because our Live Monday Warmups and our Practice Labs are now exclusive to our My Heart Mastery members. So you will find—

My Heart Mastery members, that is—

you will find the links to join those calls on our website and in our special private section in the hub, the My Heart Mastery member channel. So you can look for that in the hub and you'll see all those links there as well. If you have been a fan of the Monday warm-ups or the practice labs or both, and you would like to continue with those, well, I think the best way to do that, the only way— at this point is to become a My Heart Mastery member. We would love to have you. And right now you can join with a discounted link. I have put that link in the show notes so you can join for $20 off a month. That's $20 off every month when you join now. So you can do that and, uh, you won't miss out on anything. So I wanted to be sure to tell you about that, just to get that out of the way. We will only be offering that discounted link for a few more days. Days. So I would urge you to get in there and join now if you want to continue with those Live Monday Warm-Ups at the special rate. And I think that it's probably time I got on with the interview. So here is my conversation with my very good friend and flutist partner Joan Marsh.

Well, welcome Joan! This is so much fun to have you on the podcast. I mean, it's always fun to talk with you, and I can't believe that After 40 years of working together, we can still find fun stuff to talk about, but there's too much to talk about, actually. Well, that is true. So our primary objective here, if that's not too strong a phrase, is to really talk about our collaboration and to talk, I think, not only about how it started and some of the things we've done, but to talk about how it has worked for us to have been working together for so long. And as I mentioned in the introduction, we've been together through births of children and grandchildren, through other avenues of careers, individual projects and businesses that have taken us into other directions. And yet through all of that, the, the playing and the duo playing has been part of that. So if somebody asked you, and I guess I am, what's the secret to that kind of longevity and success, what would you say?

Well, I thought about this.

Okay.

And for me, it's trust.

It's huge, isn't it?

Trust. It's trust on so many different levels. So as much playing as I've done with other orchestras and, and very fine orchestras and very fine musicians, I keep coming back to this because for me it's the most rewarding.

Well, it is certainly for me too. I think there, you know, I like playing solo stuff, and, you know, as harpists we probably play solo stuff more than flutists do, but there's something about the duo collaboration that is a magnification, I think.

Yes, yes. So that the the sum is greater than the two parts together.

Yeah.

There's a better way to say that, but you know, it's—

I like it.

And there are those moments, and there I find also working with you, I can get into that place people call the zone where you're not quite sure who is playing the flute, but you don't think it's you, you know, and again, and And that reaching that level is so incredibly rewarding.

Yeah. And you can't do that without trust. Yes. Right. So where was that moment for you? I don't know. I don't know if I can identify a moment, but I'll think about it. But could you identify a moment where you all of a sudden knew that we had that much trust in each other? Because of course, you know, you don't start out that way. I mean, you know, you just start out playing a concert together and then things go on from there.

Well, we sort of did, actually. So the first time I worked with you, we had that crazy job at Hagley Museum. Yeah, right. And, and then after that, Jerry Giebelin asked us to play at a restaurant, and you and I were talking about it, and I realized that we really had shared, um, values, musical values, just in those conversations. And so I remember thinking— and then shortly after that, we played at Longwood, right?

We did.

And that concert, I think, at Longwood, that early on, 40 years ago, I was 2.

Right, of course you were. So was I. So yeah, yeah, exactly.

But I think that early on I felt that and knew that it was something that was going to be immensely valuable.

Well, I did too, very early on, feel that. And I think that there are kind of a couple dimensions, right? Because one is, you know, if you're playing a job the way, you know, the way we did that funny that funny thing at the museum. If you're playing together, you have to be able to have a little bit of, you know, friendly discourse. You have to be able to get along. So, so that was sort of part of it. And then I guess the way any friendship deepens, you find those deeper points of connection, and, and it either works or it doesn't. And, and I guess for us it worked.

It did work. And along the way, we have a lot of funny stories and interesting, interesting experiences.

Okay, so, so pick one that you actually want to talk about in public.

Okay, so we played an event at the Four Seasons in Philadelphia. I think you know where this is going. And I had parked my car in a garage You know where this is going. I do. Yes. And I walked up to the attendant as we were getting ready to leave, and I said, it's a gray Volvo, Delaware tags. And he said, Volvo. I said, no, it's a gray Volvo. And he said, Volvo. And I said, no. And you said, Joan, it's okay.

Well, there are those moments where you just get very fixated on what you need. I mean, yes, one does. I mean, I certainly do this, right? And you don't— your mind is running in a very narrow track. And fortunately, I was a little bit outside and it all worked.

When we did that Atrium concert at the Noumours Children's Hospital. And we found out that there were 150 children looking over the balcony to the atrium, listening to this concert based on the music of Spring. That was so deeply moving.

That's sort of the other end of this, isn't it? There are those moments that are just so profound and so surprising.

Surprising.

The, the people we've, we've met, the, the, the odd coincidences, and, and just thinking about that, I, I— yeah, it, it's totally mind-blowing. I don't have another word for it, but it is actually very much so. Yeah. Yeah. So I would like to give you public accolades right now because you, of the two of us, you were the one who was really pushing us to commission. And with all the work we've done with composers, you really laid the groundwork for that and you pursued it. And I'd love it if you would talk a little bit about why that was an avenue you really wanted to pursue and how that worked and talk about that a little?

Well, I'm fascinated with the way composers think because I hear music in my head all the time, but it's something I've heard before. I don't hear original music in my head. And so working with a composer on a piece of music gets me just a tiny bit closer to that thought process, which is so fascinating to me. And we've had some really—

the, the Serenade by Daniel Dorff is absolutely—

ah, it's a thrill. Yes, it is an incredible piece. And then I commissioned Lou Dulys to do that, the Sonata for Vibraphone and Flute, and that was fascinating. And there's actually a little bit of improvisation in that, which is way out of my wheelhouse. So I think that the reward is And we also— the Lowell Lieberman was the very first one.

That was what I wanted to make sure you didn't forget, Lowell's.

Yes. And I had actually in 1990 turned pages for Amy Porter's prize-winning performance of that sonata at the National Flute Association Convention. And I left that rehearsal being able to whistle the tune. And I remember talking to you about that and saying, I want to commission a piece of music by Lola Lieberman. And we did. And it's very powerful.

Yeah. And it was truly a fascinating process. I mean, we'd done— we'd participated in some commissioning projects before. I'm thinking about the Minnesota Composers thing.

Oh, yes.

Yes. Yeah. And so we, you know, sort of participated at that level. But to actually sort of go out on our own and, you know, write the check and say, you know, this is what we want. And to have a piece that was written not— and I think this was really the first one that was like this. It was written not just for flute and harp, but it was written with our particular sensibilities about the instruments.

Yes. So all those pedal slides.

Oh my gosh. Yeah.

I, you know, he heard us play the Petra Baskerville.

Right.

That's right. And I think that inspired the pedal slides.

It may have. He was certainly inspired, and there are plenty in there. I don't know, I got calluses on my feet or wore out a pair of shoes or something from that.

I don't know.

At least. Yeah. But it's a wonderful piece, and it's, you know, there's something just really cool to think that there are a couple significant works, you know, the Lieberman and the Dorff, and, you know, that we've been able to contribute to the flute and harp literature. That's just kind of fun.

Yes, I'm looking forward to doing more of that, actually.

I know, I know. Well, and then of course, there are the works that our good friend Louis-Anthony Deleuze has written.

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah.

So gems. They're such gems.

They're wonderful. And what I love about them is how approachable they are. He worked so hard to make them not just for us, because this was a project that you approached him about, as I recall.

Yes, yes.

But he worked— he was so generous to work with me to say, okay, well, I know you can play this, but what can I do to make sure that other harpists can play this? And yes, harpists who have lever harps, and you know, and it's so hard to get that sensibility written into it and And I think it was wildly successful in that respect.

And what's very interesting about his music is that while it's very approachable, it's very sophisticated and with all sorts of wonderful ways of combining the instruments. And do you hear Bess in the background?

Just a little bit. Yeah, Bess, Bess the dog. Tell us about Bess.

So Bess is my corgi. And our favorite thing now is to go to the dog park. And when we go to the dog park, she doesn't chase the balls that people throw. She chases the dogs that are chasing the balls. That's her herding instinct.

Yes. They get that, you know, the silly dogs can run after the ball. I'll just chase.

Yes, exactly.

Exactly. Very smart dog. Well, let me get back to Composers and to Louis-Anthony D'Elise particularly because you and I and he are collaborating on this project, this brand new event, and I would be very remiss if in our conversation we didn't talk about that. So why don't you talk about this this time?

I've done a lot of talking about it to my people, but So what was fascinating to me, and I told you about this professional flutist who called me after they saw, you know, the first email and saw the website, and they were in tears because they said they were struggling with understanding why they were playing the flute at this point in their life and how stressful it was and how it was always surrounded with stress for them. And I realized that what we're doing fills a niche for people who really want to make music, but for some reason, and I think perhaps more for flutists since, you know, a flutist is a Taipei personality, let's face it. We want to hear ourselves.

We are too, you know, my friend.

Oh, okay. And what they were saying was, here is a situation in which I can do it for the joy of it rather than feeling stressed. And at that moment, I realized just how important this project is.

Yeah. So this project is the Chrysalis Music Workshop. It's a collaborative workshop with flutists, harpists, and composers, and it's a weekend long. And what we are doing is creating a space, an event, a place, a time where flutists and harpists can work together, can work with composers. The composers get to work with real-life instrumentalists in person, in real time, and we can— everybody can work at their own level. But the idea is that this is going to give you a chance to meet other instrumentalists to play together, to form sort of ad hoc, or who knows, maybe more permanent duos, or come as a duo as you like. Yes, it works for you. But to be able to explore some new repertoire, to find out what it really takes to play music together. I know a lot of the harpists I work with would like to play with other people, but they're they haven't done it before. They're kind of tentative and they're not sure if they're gonna be able to do it. And the whole point of this workshop is to make sure that you are able to do it.

Absolutely. And to do it well, there's a point in time when you have to let go. And I think that when people are concerned with making mistakes or looking foolish or something, they do not let go.. And I think one of the most valuable things that we can do with this workshop is let people understand they can let go, be vulnerable in that moment. But in that moment, they're going to make the most music.

Yeah. It's about being a safe space.

Yes.

Perfect. Yeah. Where the mistakes don't count. There's no right or wrong. There's only learning together.

Yeah.

And not learning in front of anybody, but learning with somebody. Yes. I don't know of another event that is like this and that brings these people together quite this way. And I'm so excited about it. Absolutely. And I think, you know, one of my phrases, and in fact, the title of the podcast is Harp Happiness, right? Practicing Harp Happiness. Yes.

Right.

So, and, and that's what this is about. This is being able to really enjoy making music. I mean, I think that's been a hallmark of what you and I have done over 40 years. Anne Sullivan. What's kept us working together.

Very much so. Yes.

I don't, I don't know really how to describe it. I don't know. Maybe you have better words than I do about the, the way making music together is sort of a a thing that transcends your own playing, it transcends friendship, it's different. And I'm not sure how to describe it, but maybe you can.

Well, you know, the whole purpose of art is to transcend daily experiences. You know, we go to another level. And I think that that brings unspeakable joy.

Boy, that's a mic drop moment right there. Okay, so let's turn the conversation a little bit. And, um, I hadn't planned to do this, but it just seems like the right thing. So we're going to play a quick game of Yes, But What About This One? Now, I just— okay, I just made up this game now, so, um, so we'll see how it goes. But I think you and I need to trade some memories about Do you remember how funny or weird or whatever this particular event was? You get to start then, or maybe I'll start because it'll make it easier. I'll start and I'll talk about one thing that happened to us, and then you get to say, "Yes, but what about this one?" and come back with another one. And we'll see how many of these moments from our collaboration we can come up with.

So that's fun.

So I am going to start with— this is not fair— I'm starting with one that has so many interesting points. I'm starting with the concert that we did in Storm Lake, Iowa. Yeah, and so there, I mean, the concerts were fine, although I remember we actually went out and bought new dresses in Storm Lake. For some reason we needed different attire. You might remember, I don't remember, but we went and we bought clothing after we got there. But there was that moment. Then leaving was interesting because on the way out we picked up, we got gas in the rental car on our way to the airport, which was fogged in, and we ended up having to drive to Omaha to fly home.

That's right.

But, and we did some mean card playing in the airport, as I recall.

Yes, we did.

But the fun thing that I really wanted to talk about was going into the convenience store to pay for the gas and seeing the local newspaper with this big color picture of me at the harp talking about the concert that we had played. And it was right under the headline about hog futures or something. And so there's this big headline about hog futures and the picture of me at the harp underneath that with the blurb about our concert. Anyway, so, so Yes, but what do you recall?

Well, yes, but.

Yes, exactly.

I remember landing in Philadelphia and it was something like 1 o'clock in the morning and we're going in for the landing and then all of a sudden the plane goes up. I recall that the compartment doors opened up and I'm sitting here like this And you're saying, oh, well, this is like the Blue Angels. You know, they're always—

how insensitive. However, you have to remember what I was trying to do. I saw you freak out and I thought, I've just got to talk about something. And so I talked about the first thing that came into my head, which was the video that my son and I'd been watching about the Blue Angels. And it was the wrong thing to talk about, but it was all I had. Yeah, it was a harrowing moment for sure.

It was definitely for sure.

Well, okay, I'm going to I'll let you talk about this one, but this is the next one, and I think it's the, um, the rental truck episode when we went to Wisconsin.

Yes, yes. And, uh, well, there was that, and there was also, um, the time when the harp didn't arrive on time.

Yeah.

And you were, you were, you were playing the performance on the piano, and it wasn't easy stuff.

No, the Frey Sonata? It would have been horrible. I mean, I can play the piano.

My recollection is that it was absolutely fine. And so we're warming up on the piano and the presenter is like irritated, and then this wonderful woman dressed in a leather jacket with conchos and fringe and a cowboy hat.

I don't remember that part.

Yes, and she came in.

I was totally freaked out. You probably just remember that better. It was probably a whoa, whoa moment and I was Yeah, it might have been, it might have been.

And she walked in, she said, I hear you need a harp. And we said, yes, we do. And so she went home and brought it, and it was a— it was an Aura harp. It was a— it was black frame.

I think it was an Aurora. It was a Salvi harp.

Aurora.

Yes. It was that, you know, that the house had just opened. People were just starting to come into the auditorium, so it was a half an hour before the performance. And she said, Well, I have a brand new harp and I just got it and I only live 5 minutes away and I could go get it. And I just remember sort of staring at her like she was some extraterrestrial being. What do you mean you have a harp? What do you— and you know, what kind is it? And she said, and I said, yeah, that'd be great. And she went home and brought it and I tuned it. I mean, it was a miracle.

It was a miracle. And the other thing I remember about that concert is that the air was blowing right at my face, which meant that the upper part of the tube was colder on the flute, was colder than it— and I remember struggling trying to make sure that, you know, I could play in turn.

Environments are funny things, aren't they?

Oh, makes such a difference, doesn't it?

Yep, yep. I remember playing someplace, you'll remember where it was, where the, the stage was painted black, but there were holes in the stage that they'd covered with black electrical tape, and I remember my heel going through a couple of pieces. Yes. Until I figured it out and learned to watch out for them. That was weird.

That was Chestertown, Washington University. They were so proud of that little hall because it was designed— oh, lovely sound, lovely sound. But yes, that was quite memorable.

It's like there were these pitfalls and you just didn't know.

Exactly.

Oops.

Right.

Yeah, after the first couple I figured out what to look for, but oh goodness. I think I need to ask for this. Aside from the commissions, if you had to pick a musical highlight of some of the stuff that we've done, what would come to mind for you?

Uh, the concert at Eaglesmere.

Oh!

In 2023.

Yeah, so it was recent. Yeah.

Yeah. And I just remember, first of all, that room was such a delight to play in. And you also felt like the people were really listening and absorbing. And for me, the highlight of that performance was the Rodrigo fantasia because I really felt like, well, it was one of those times when you're just in the zone and couldn't figure out who the hell was playing, but I was sort of sure it might have been me. Anyway, yes, that was a highlight.

You know, that was a highlight too, I think, for me, because we were still just, you know, the concert world was still just coming out of COVID Yes. We'd had a spell where we hadn't played a whole lot. There was a lot that went on, COVID aside from that, there was a lot that was just going on in our own lives at that time. In our lives, yes. And Eaglesmear was sort of a little renaissance moment, I think, for us too.

Absolutely. That's the perfect way to describe it.

Yeah, that was a good moment. It was a good moment. So with all the recordings and everything that we've done, I'll go with you on that one. I'll take that as a highlight.

Well, what a surprise! We agree on something.

Yeah, that's really— what do you know? So just before we wrap this up, what would you say to a flutist or a harpist, I suppose, but, you know, to someone who's thinking about the idea that they'd like to collaborate, they'd like to work with another musician, but they're not sure how to go about it and they're not sure what it would be like. What would you say to them?

Well, that's a really good question. I think, and I've said this to students, make the call. Set up the time. You know, just start playing together and see if you have the common goals and common values, musical values. And when you find that, you just hold on to it.

Yeah, you do.

Absolutely, you do.

All right. Well, thank you, Joan. Thank you so much for talking to me and talking with me and I know we'll be talking again soon because we do, but very shortly. This was so much fun. And I had one more flashback all of a sudden thinking, uh-oh, well, I was thinking about the, the years that we did a radio interview show together.

I was thinking about that the other day. Yes, in Salisbury, Maryland. That's right, we did Arts Across Delmarva.

We did, uh, this a show on the public radio station, and we interviewed various people, some local, some not. We had some big names on the show. And, uh, and just thinking about, well, we had, um, we had our interview skills sort of honed or not in that environment. So just had that little flashback right there. But, but thank you for talking with me, and it's been a real treat.

Thank you. Thank you.

Always fun.

Well, I hope you enjoyed our little trip down memory lane. We certainly did. But I also hope that you were able to get a sense of what a musical partnership can be. It can be friendship, and of course it's a wonderful thing to have associated with any kind of venture like this. But I want to come back to what we talked about. It's built on trust. It's built on the kind of trust that allows you not just to play together in performance, but to understand that when you rehearse, the work that you're doing is all work that you're in doing together to serve the music. And that's where the fun stuff is, because you know that together you are creating a shared vision for a piece, and you become inseparable, the two of you, from that piece. And that's— I, I don't know how to describe it, but that's the kind of feeling that I want for every harpist, for every harpist and flutist, or whoever you work with. I work with some string players who are equally wonderful, but I wanted to talk with Joan today just because of the Chrysalis Collaborative, and I would urge you to take a look at that. We've put the link in the show notes. It's chrysalismusicworkshop.com. If you can spell chrysalis, you're terrific. If you can't, use the link in the show notes. But this is a chance to get together in a, in a safe space, in a low-pressure environment to experiment, to see what it's like, and to understand what working with someone else could be like. This is what I want to share, and this is what is so exciting to me about this opportunity. So, um, I hope you enjoyed the conversation. I hope you check out Chrysalis. If this is something that has ever been in the back of your mind, this is the time to do it. Now on next week's show, it's going to be all harp. We're talking about 3 techniques that matter, and I think these techniques are going to surprise you, but they are specific techniques that I come back to time and time again because they make the difference. So we're going to be talking about 3 techniques that matter on next week's show. I'm going to leave you today with a little clip from one of the recordings that Joan and I did She mentioned the Rodrigo earlier. This is the Fantasía para un Gentle Hombre that was originally arranged for flute and piano. It's for guitar and orchestra, and it was arranged for flute and piano by James Galway. We adapted that arrangement and got permission from Mr. Rodrigo, the composer himself, to record this arrangement. So this is part of the Danza de las Hachas, the Hatchet Dance, from the Rodrigo Fantasia from our Reflections CD. And as you listen, remember that every day is a day you can add more harp happiness to the universe, to your world, and to your spirit. And all you have to do is play. Now enjoy the Rodrigo, and I will talk to you next week. Enjoyed today's episode? Then share it with a harpist friend, subscribe for your weekly harp happiness boost, and check out harpmastery.com or the Harp Mastery app in your app store for more resources and ways to connect. I'll see you next time.