Alcohol & Marriage with Pastor Jimmy Evans

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Hello and welcome back to the Naked Marriage Podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast, we undress the truth about sex, intimacy and lifelong love. And you guys, we have one of our very favorites in here in the studio today. And you get to hear from him. It is the legendary, the one and only, the incredible Jimmy Evans.

Oh, man, Jimmy is a living legend. And he is. I just kind of like, gush.

And I want to say he's a living legend from the stage on tv, but even more so close up. And you can't say that about a lot of people.

Oh, it's true. Like, he's one of the best teachers of all time, preachers, teachers from up on a stage, just so gifted. But behind the scenes, he's even more impressive because he's so real. He's just so authentic. And the whole Evans family has been such a gift to us. Of course, they're the founders of this ministry and he is a prolific author, pastor, teacher, encourager. And today we're going to have a conversation with him that is a conversation we've never had with him or on this podcast in general. And it's one of the most important topics I think we've ever talked about, which is what should the Christian's approach be to alcohol and what should alcohol consumption within marriage look like? Is it allowed? Is it not? How much is too much? What do you do if one spouse develops a problem with it? And today's conversation, I think, and what Jimmy brings is one of the most balanced and biblical approaches to alcohol that I've ever heard taught. And so you guys are really going to enjoy this. Let's dive into today's episode. Well, as we said in the intro, guys, we have a living legend here with us and a man who's impacted our lives as much as anybody on earth has. And so we're so honored to have this conversation. And a really important topic, and we get this question a lot, and it's about drinking in marriage. And there's a lot to cover here. People ask, can Christians do it at all? And if so, how much is too much? And what if one spouse is kind of developing a problem? How does the other spouse respond? And just what should our overall response to it be? And we've got. We're gonna have a great conversation. But first off, Jimmy Evans, welcome.

Welcome. I get to be on Dave and Ashley's podcast. Have y' all ever had me? Have I been here before?

Yeah, you have once before. I think we interviewed you for the Four Laws of Love book, which is one of the best marriage books ever written. And it was one of the most popular episodes we've ever had.

Very popular.

Okay, well, this is going to be a popular one, too.

I'm glad you.

It's a big subject.

It really is. I'm so happy to talk about this because, like, you guys, I've just seen so much marital, you know, hurt over the issue of drinking, and some very needlessly. Sure, exactly. We had a situation to where there was a couple, and the wife was. She grew up very. I would say religious. Not necessarily spiritual, but religious. And her family was teetotalers. They were teetotalers. And totally against drinking. And she had a wonderful husband, just a great guy. And she found out that when he traveled in his business that he drank wine with his dinner. She divorced him. Wow.

Oh, my goodness.

No conversation. I mean, she got furious, and she said, you're a sinner, and I'm not gonna have a sinner in my house. And she. Boy, she. You know, and I looked at that, and I just thought, how, you know, just awful.

Yeah. Just heartbreaking.

Well, it's an extreme belief, and if a person has a conviction not to drink, that's fine, but it's an extreme belief. But in that case, to believe that. Well, one pastor teaches that if you drink, you're literally drinking demons into your body. Alcohol has demons in it, and you're drinking demons into your body.

Wow.

Well, you get that picture in your head, and then your spouse is over there having a beer, and it's like you're demonic. Yeah.

You got demons in you can see.

Where you get that mindset.

Sure. So, anyway, I'm happy to be here.

I am, too. And this. This issue. And we've. We've kind of, like, been in Settings where we've seen the full spectrum for, you know, folks where there's, like, very little limit. I've got plenty of relatives who are bourbon connoisseurs, which back in Kentucky is a polite way of saying when someone's an alcoholic, they're connoisseur. Right. A little too much. And we've been in settings where folks have that very hardline, legalistic approach where, you know, if you take a drink, you know, you're. It's. It's just the end. And. But what is the b. Really, really say, you know, as for us, like, just full disclosure, you know, we kind of take an approach where we look at Jesus having made real wine. We look at kind of the whole totality of scripture, and I can't see anything in scripture that absolutely forbids drinking. Now, certainly the Bible talks about drunkenness being very dangerous and wrong, but just enjoying alcohol in moderation. And there's. There's a lot of nuance to what moderation means. See anything in scripture against that? And that's something that, you know, full disclosure. Ashley and I did. We were out at a birthday dinner last night, you know, having some drinks, and it was. Everybody there loved Jesus, and nobody was out of control in any way. And it was a lovely evening. But I know for some that just the thought of that is something that would get them all flustered and say, well, I'm going to have to stop listening to this podcast now because you guys are sinners.

Well, Karen and I grew up. My parents were not Christians. Karen's weren't either. Now, they would say they were, but they weren't. And my mom and dad drank socially every now and then. My dad would have a beer every now and then. Never saw him drunk. Never saw him abusing alcohol. Karen's parents had wine probably every evening with their meal and drank socially. Some never saw him drunk. Never. So we got married, and when we got married, we were married at 19 years old. And, you know, we'd have wine or beer, you know, just have a drink every now and then. You know, didn't think anything about that. So we went to church one day, and the message was drinking was a sin. Now, I came from a family of poker players. My mom and dad played poker two or three nights a week in our home. They had a group of friends that came over to play poker. And my grandmother loved poker. We played welfare poker, where you pay for $5. You just put $5 in, you can only lose $5. So they also preached that gambling was a sin. And playing.

All my favorite activities are hellbound.

And playing cards was a sin. Well, I just saw all my family burning in the recesses of hell. So the context. So drinking is a sin. This is Psalm 104. He causes God causes grass to grow for the cattle and vegetation for the service of man, that he may bring forth food from the earth, and wine that makes glad the heart of man, oil to make his face shine, and bread which strengthens the man's heart. Amen. So this is a scripture here that says God made wine, okay, to make our heart glad. It makes your heart glad. If you do it properly, in moderation, it makes your heart glad. It's like you're eating a meal. Whatever just kind of adds something to it. Doesn't mean you have to have alcohol with it, but just if you drink it in moderation. And so joy is why God made it. And so Jesus produced wine. It was his first miracle in John, chapter two, the wedding of Canaan, Galilee. It was real wine. Some people say it was grape juice. It is gross to sit around drinking grape juice.

Yeah, it is.

It is.

It's absolutely gross.

And if it's grape juice, why are there prohibitions in the Bible about being drunk?

Exactly.

You drink all you want just till you get sick.

And having been to Israel, as I know you have as well, where they've had unbroken traditions for thousands of years, and their wedding traditions have remained intact. Nobody there thinks it's grape juice. It is real wine.

They appreciate wine.

Well, this is what Jesus said. This is Matthew 11. John. John the Baptist came, neither eating nor drinking. And they say he has demon. The Son of man came eating and drinking. And they say, look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners. But wisdom is justified by our children. So what he's saying here, you can't win. So John came and he was in the wilderness, you know, and he was, you know, eating locusts and wild honey and water. And he said. Jesus said, look at John. You know, that guy didn't do anything. And they said he had a demon, right? And I come sitting down, not being a glutton or a drunkard, but just eating and drinking like a normal person does. And they call me a glutton and a wine bibber. So they're criticizing Jesus drank. Why would you criticize somebody for drinking grape juice? You don't call somebody. You know what? Jesus likes a lot of grape juice. So, I mean, you cannot OD on grape juice. So it is alcohol. It has alcohol in it. If you drink too much of it, it can make you drunk and do all kinds of crazy things. But Jesus came and he drank wine. He made it, and he drank it with his disciples at the Last Supper. Okay? So I believe that there is no prohibition in the Bible against drinking and alcohol. Really, it comes in different forms, but alcohol is alcohol. One of the bad things about drugs, you look at marijuana or ecstasy or all the dangerous drugs that are out there, fentanyl that are out there today, drugs comes in many different forms. You smoke it, you shoot it, you snort it, you eat it, and all those kinds of things. And it comes all the way from marijuana to heroin, Right? Sure. So, you know, it's a very dangerous. But alcohol is alcohol. There's Everclear, which is the strongest form of alcohol. You don't want to drink much of that, but you have to consume it and it's noticeable. Okay. Breathalyzer will show, but your behavior will show. You can't drink much of that. So alcohol, the way that Karen and I have always practiced it is we just. We just don't see anything wrong with it as long as you don't abuse it. And we never saw that, and we've never done that. Now, in high school, I got drunk some, but I didn't enjoy it. I mean, when I drank in high school, it took a lot of. It took a lot of willpower to get drunk because I didn't enjoy.

Right, yeah, you got to hold your nose and just took a lot of willpower. But you stuck with it. And I stuck with it. Yeah. So I've had some of those unfortunate, unfortunate past, youthful mistakes.

So let me talk about just a few things the Bible says that are wrong. The things you have to be careful of. One is excess. This is Isaiah 5. What are those who rise early in the morning that they may follow intoxicating drink, who continue until midnight till wine inflames them? Well, there are some people that should never drink. Yeah, I know people that they just simply can't drink one drink. If they drink one, they're going to drink 50. And so. And you should never use alcohol to medicate. Sure.

Yeah.

Let's talk just a minute about addiction. Okay. So in addiction, the issue is never the issue. If you're a sex addict, sex is not your issue.

Right, right.

If you're a foodaholic, food's not your issue. If you're an alcoholic, alcohol is not your issue. And so in aa, when you go to aa, they the first. I think it's the first tenet of AA is Fessa. And they say denial is not a river in Egypt. And so alcoholics are hurting. There's something. Now, if you give a healthy person a substance, they might misuse it, they might even abuse it, but they're not gonna get addicted to it. You don't want to. You don't need that. But when you have a hurting person, an unhealthy person, and they're grieving over some issue in their life, abuse could be sexual, abuse could be abortion. It could be something. And they're using that alcohol to medicate. They keep pouring that alcohol in there, trying to keep the pain from becoming acute. Of course, they wake up and it's back, and they're right back where they were. But the issue is this. Alcohol's not their issue. You can scream out about alcohol all day long, and that won't help them at all. What helps them is getting to the root of the issue and dealing with their pain. But for all of us, we could have a bad day or whatever and try to drown your sorrows. Well, the problem is that I'm going to talk about this in just a morning, in just a minute. When you go to the Lord with your pain, he'll heal your pain. Yes. Jesus said in Matthew 5, the Beatitudes, he says, blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. Now, I do not agree with that statement. By the way. I know a lot of people who mourn. They're not comforted. There are people mourning all over the world right now not being comforted. But here's the fuller statement. Blessed are those who bring their pain to me. I'll heal it.

Yeah, that's good.

And so when you bring your pain to Jesus, pain is the. Jesus is the only place that we can take pain to be healed. Nothing else will heal it. You can numb it. I'm talking about emotional pain. Sure. Is that Jesus is the only one who can heal it. So alcohol, when you look at excess, you're typically looking at people trying to medicate their pain. And there's a lot of people today that are hurting and trying to medicate their pain. So in marriage, you don't do that. And if you see your spouse doing that, you've got to talk to them about it. You try to get them help in that. Another one is our witness. And some people are very against drinking. And Romans 14 says, Therefore, let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things which edify one another. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. And these indeed are pure. But it is evil for the man who eats with offence. It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine, or do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. Now, what Paul is saying Here in Romans 14 is the people who don't drink are weaker in their conscience. They're not stronger. Now, we have a lot of friends who don't drink, and if we're out eating or something like that, they'll say, hey, you gotta get wine, we don't care, you know. But if there's a person that I know is offended, you know, I'm eating dinner, I'm eating a meal, or I'm out somewhere, and I know they're offended. I wouldn't do it in front of it, even though they're offended. But that is something. I know you're going to be offended. But in our culture today, there is no taboo against drinking like there was maybe 40 years ago. You're doing prohibition or something. And so I think generally, if you're discreet, you know, unless you're getting drunk or, you know, on top of the bar or something like that, you know, I think it's fine to drink, but if you know that someone is offended, the Bible says, you know, be careful for that. And then I've already mentioned this a little bit, but using alcohol as a substitute for the Holy Spirit. This is Ephesians 5. Do not be drunk with wine in which there is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, giving thanks always for all things, to God the Father and the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. And so don't be drunk with wine, but be filled with the Holy Spirit. Now, again, this is talking about excess. And on the day of Pentecost, in Acts chapter two, they said, these people are drunk.

And Peter's like, no, he didn't say, no, we don't drink, we're Christians. He said, it's only 9am what is that? We don't even start that early.

10, maybe not nine, but that's exactly right. And so the point being, they were under the influence of the Holy Spirit, and they were so joyful and peaceful, people thought they were drunk. And so the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace. And so the joy and peace people today are trying to drink their way to peace or take their drugs, take drugs to peace or whatever substance they're using. We don't have to do that. Okay. I want. I do enjoy drinking. I think it's joyful if you do it correctly. But I already have peace as a believer. I have peace before I start drinking.

Exactly.

And so when I wake up in the morning and I pray every morning, Holy Spirit, fill me up. I need you today. And I need you to anoint my emotions and anoint my body to be able to do what I need to do today. And it's amazing when you're full. Galatians 5 there talks about the fruit of the spirit. It also talks about the deeds of the flesh. And it says, there's the flesh and the spirit. You can only operate in one or the other. And if you're in the flesh, you're not in the spirit. If you're in the spirit, you're not in the flesh. But the deeds of the flesh are drunkenness, revelries, outbursts of anger, dissensions, all those kinds of things. And so if I don't rely on the Holy Spirit, my flesh takes over and my flesh wants to medicate.

Yeah, sure.

And my flesh wants to make a false peace. Try to find some way to import peace into me other than the Holy Spirit. And so I just think it's very critical as believers that we're moderate in our drinking and if we're drinking too much, that we ask ourselves the question, what is it that I'm trying to accomplish?

Yeah, yeah, that's good.

Is there some kind of pain I'm trying to deal with?

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And that brings up.

That's huge.

Really great point for those who. Who are in line with all of this and they're like, yeah, you know, I enjoy joy drinking socially, I enjoy having some. But how do we. What are those red flags we should look at in our own lives if we feel like maybe it has crossed the line from something healthy and enjoying a gift in moderation to leaning on it as a crutch or medicating with it, or if it's not in us, what are those red flags to look for in a spouse where we feel like maybe our spouse is having too much or leaning on it in a way that's unhealthy? And how do we lovingly and cautiously intervene there and say, you know, I'm noticing some things that feel like maybe it's crossed the line into something that's unhealthy. What does that line look like?

Yeah. Well, let me go back just to our concept of drinking. You have license and legalism on one hand. Over here you have just drink it till you're drunk, until you pass out, just pass out, wake up and do it again. And over here you have drinking is evil. So if you're married to someone who has more of a legalistic perspective, they're going to be cautioning you sooner. It's like the guy I talked about to his wife, you drank. When you're on the road, get out of here, you're a sinner, or you're drinking demons into your body. So if you do anything, they're gonna be, you know, you're drinking too much. So that's an extreme. Then you have the licentious over here. They're going to let you drink too much, probably anyway, until you get to. So a reasonable person is going to say, I see you drinking till you're drunk. It's not your drinking that bothers me.

Right.

It's the fact that you're drinking too much and you're drinking sometimes for too long. You know, you're starting early and you're going late, and you're very dependent upon this. Okay? So to me, the issue is not drinking. It's drunkenness and dependency. Okay. And so I enjoy alcohol. I don't want to be dependent on alcohol.

Absolutely.

I don't want to have to have it.

Right, exactly.

So when you see your spouse drinking a long time, I'm talking about starting at noon or 9 or. And they're drinking all day long, always have a beer in their hand, always have a glass of Wine in their hand or whatever. Right. And they're, they're loopy, they're. You can tell they're. They're buzzed or drunk. You talk to them, typically they'll be very defensive and, and by. Alcoholics are always defensive like that. That's when you have an intervention. Again, if you feel like it's gotten to that point that you have an intervention. Alcohol is very bad for sex. And so if a person drinks too much, a lot of times they, they don't have sex.

Right.

Or if they do have sex, they're just not into it. And so that's another manifestation of how it's affecting your marriage in a bad way. Also, it may be they're snapping at the kids. Maybe, you know, they're just, they're just checked out. I think that going to get help if they'll go get help. If not, you have an intervention. And in the intervention you try to force them, just have loved ones come there and. Well, I've done this several times with loved ones where you confront them and just say, you need to go get help. And in most cases they will, but that's tough love. You can't just sit there and watch it and watch them do that year after year because it's gonna kill em. It'll kill em. But I think it's loving and the light. To me, if I saw Karen drinking, whatever, I don't care, that's her business, you know. But if I saw her drunk in, drinking all day long and that kind of stuff, well, it's just. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna sit back, watch that happen.

Yeah.

Because it's out of love. I mean, it's out of love.

Absolutely. It's out of love.

And I think in couples that we've worked with over the years, you know, I think sometimes they just feel like it's easier to just let them do it, you know. But I love how, you know, you're really, really. It's not loving to not address it. Because if we love our spouse so much, we can't watch them kill themselves. You know, just like if we just like if they were facing mental illness and talking about killing themselves day after day, I feel like for some alcohol, is that numbing? I mean, essentially they are trying to hurt themselves subconsciously.

Well, they're just checked out.

Checked.

Right.

They're just trying to just zone out, you know, to not face the pain.

Anyone who's grown up with a parent that was alcohol dependent or an alcoholic, they weren't there Right. You know you lost your parent, right?

Yeah, it's tragic.

Yeah, it is tragic. So I totally agree. Yeah.

And I think something unique we've kind of come through as a culture is the pandemic. The drinking levels went way, way up. Right. Like, you know, you're at home, you're kind of. It's just such a unique set of circumstances.

We're trying to. Stressful.

It's stressful. There's all this uncertainty. You're trying to pass the time, you're trying to numb pain. There's, it's, you feel this kind of sense of safety, like, well, I'm not driving anywhere, there's nowhere to go. You know, I'm in my pajamas, I'm in my pajamas. And I think maybe more so than any period in history, that two year period that we've kind of recently come out of is a time when some negative habits were started. And maybe there's some folks listening right now and they're like, you know, I went from being just kind of like a social drinker to over the period of the pandemic, if I'm honest, I got to a place of some level of dependency and now that life's kind of getting back to normal, I haven't been able to shake that. I don't necessarily feel maybe like my life's totally out of control or I'm totally dependent, but I'm drinking more than I know is healthy and I'm not sure how to break out of that.

I think a lot of people that.

Habit or just sort of like change that habit up or. So if those who are listening right now and they feel like they're just to that place where it's like my life's not necessarily out of control. I'm not drinking all day, but I find myself turning to it too much. And I know not just for enjoyment, but it's for medication, it's for numbing, it's for trying to zone out.

Well, and it's habitual, right?

It's habitual, right.

Yeah, well, and you start earlier. Yeah. You know, because you're at home, you're not going to go anywhere. I think baby steps, I think it scares people. Cold turkey scares people and big steps scare people. And you say, well, I'm drinking a bottle of wine a day and you say, well, don't drink, don't do that. Yeah, well, you know, but you say, could you drink three quarters? Right. You know, little by little, just, just drink a little bit less. That doesn't. That way it doesn't scare me because, see, I used. When I used to smoke, you know, I quit when I was 25. Every time I thought about stopping, I smoked more.

Right, right. I need to see nervous.

I did. I smoked a pack a day. And when I thought about stopping, I smoked like a pack and a half. So it was good for me to keep smoking until I stopped. But when you think about going cold turkey on anything, you begin to kind of obsess. So I think in losing weight and stopping drinking or anything, just a little bit.

Yeah.

Could I just do without sugar? Could I just do with less sugar? Can I do this? Yeah, I can do that. And then once I do that, maybe I want to do a little bit more and you feel better. And the thing, the thing. If I eat too much and drink too much, you wake up, you feel terrible. Sure. And I don't like that. I don't like that feeling. So just do a little bit at a time. For example, let's just say that someone's at home and during the pandemic, they normally would start maybe drinking at 5 or 6, and they started drinking at 3 or 4. Okay, bump it up. Can you wait another hour to drink? You know, can you drink just a little bit less?

Right.

And that way you're not saying no, you're just saying, here's how. Here's how to do it.

Yeah, baby steps.

Yeah. And I think emotionally it's a lot easier for most people to do that kind of thing.

That's so wise, because I do think that is. They keep on avoiding it because if they're like, if it all has to go, I just don't know if I can do that. But I do think most people could say incrementally, one glass less or. You know what I'm saying? Like, I think that that's very doable for people and so healthy because maybe you're. You're trying. You're just trying to bring it into a healthy place and not this excessive place where it's been maybe through the pandemic.

Right. And. And I was doing some research just on kind of like, at what point is it unhealthy? Like, medically speaking, what's recommended, what's recommended and all that. And. And the total amount was less than I would have imagined for what they thought was that threshold, medically speaking, it could start. And it was for men. It wasn't even per day. It was per week for men. And you can Google this yourselves. But the most recent data I saw was 14 total drinks per week, which comes out to two a day. But then what they counted as a drink was probably a smaller portion than we would think. Even at a lot of restaurants where they're pouring in bigger, so we have to watch kind of the portions. For women, it was even less than that.

Way less than that.

It was like, I think seven drinks per week, which is just one drink a day. I don't know why there's such a disparity that it was literally half for women than for men. I think it had something to do with kind of how the body metabolizes the alcohol.

And I'm sure that different size people and things like that.

Yeah, that was the baseline. Might be different based on your unique metabolism and size and all those things. But to just keep in mind of that, because I think it's easy to. I think in any part of our lives, you know, we need to kind of just keep track. You know, when our spending gets out of control, we're not keeping track. When our eating gets out of control, we're not keeping. Keeping track. And if our drinking is getting out of control, I think we're not counting, you know, we're just. We're pouring and not counting. And so just being mindful and measuring, like, not only in the drinking, but in all parts of your life, like, am I really keeping an account and measuring of what's coming in, what's going out? And if you will just take an inventory of that, you might be surprised if, like, wow, this is more than I realized it was. And, you know, they're saying that anything over 14 a week for a man is unhealthy. And if I'm really, really measuring it correctly and adding them up, like, you know, I was at 25 and that's, you know, that could hurt my health. And so just that may be a.

Light bulb moment for somebody because again, I just think if you're not even aware, you know, you're like, oh my gosh, I don't want to damage myself. Like, I think it. It might be a right.

And just even being mindful of the alcohol content in what you're drinking, because not all drinks are created. Created equal, like just the really read labels. The percentage of alcohol and in one wine can vary greatly over another. In. In mixed drinks, it can. It can be wildly varied. And so you might pour something. Even beers, you know, like, you know, IPAs, which I enjoy, tend to have a higher alcohol content than most other beers. And so, you know, drinking a couple of those is going to be different in Alcohol content than drinking a couple of light beers over here. And you just have to. You just have to be mindful, I think, and in all parts of life, definitely.

Can we talk about parenting for a minute?

Oh, please.

Absolutely. Yes. So. Because I want to talk to people, adults who had wrong modeling, and then talk about how to train your children related to drinking. There are iniquities. And in our vows, okay, so Deuteronomy 5 says, I'll visit the iniquities of the fathers upon the children of the third and fourth generation. The word iniquity means bent. It's the word Avon in Hebrew. It means a bent. And so we do what our parents do. We are naturally inclined. If our parents had a bent toward anger, a bent toward substance abuse, a bent toward racism, a bent, we. We typically have that same bent. And so the. If you recognize, you go back in time and recognize my parents were. Had substance abuse issues, well, typically, we will also. And so you go, you forgive your mom and dad and you submit that the way you. How do you go from this to this? Because I've never met a person without iniquities. All of us haven't. You forgive your mom and dad for whatever they did wrong, and you submit that area to Jesus and you say, lord, I want you to teach me how to deal with substances. I want you, Holy Spirit, heal me of anything wrong, but teach me. And what happens when we submit that to Jesus is that I become straight. Is that iniquity? Well, then there are inner vows. And Jesus said, don't vow. Don't make vows to yourself. You can't make one hair white or black. And so you're yes. BS and you're no be. No. What does that mean? That means when we're in pain, we almost always make vows to ourselves. And I'll never be poor again. I'll never let a woman treat me like that again. I'm never going to be, you know, do this, this again. Well, so if my parent was an alcoholic, many times I'll say, I'll never drink when I get old.

Yeah.

Okay, well, what's the problem? Anytime I make a promise to myself, Jesus is not lord of that area. See, when we're hurting and none of us know this and we all make inner vows, is that when I'm hurting, what I should say is, lord, I'm hurting. And would you heal this hurt and teach me how to deal with it? Well, instead we say, I'm never gonna. You know, no woman's ever. No man's gonna Ever treat me like that, no one's gonna ever hurt me again. All you said, well, anytime, anytime. If I say I'm never going to be poor again, Jesus is not the Lord of my finances. I now have a self vow. It's our highest loyalty. And it makes you a little crazy and unteachable. The craziest areas of your life are the areas where you have an inner vow. And when I was growing up, I had two shirts and a pair of pants. And I wore the same pants every day. And I rotated shirts every day. Karen said, I thought you wore that shirt because you liked it.

No.

Oh yeah, too. And so I remember just the humiliating feeling of just thinking I'm wearing the same clothes all the time. All these other people are wearing those clothes. And I looked at my closet one day and I said, if I ever have any money, I'm gonna buy clothes. You fast forward about 20 years. Karen and I are having a fight. And she said, jimmy, you buy too many clothes. And I said, karen, I do not buy too many clothes. But our closets are small. And I said, that's not. We were having a big fight, but our closets are small. And one day I realized I woke up, but I didn't know about it in her vows at that point. And one day I woke up, kind of realized I have a wrong relationship with clothes, you know, and it goes back to that.

Yeah.

So if you realize someone who's watching right now or listening and you realize my parents were alcoholics, you know, and I realize in that pain I made this inner vow, what happens now? You're rigid, you're legalistic, you know you're not going to drink. And you teach your children you're not going to drink. And like that. Well, when you teach your children not to do something, guess what they're going to do? Go do it in an unhealthy way.

Right.

You know, it's in the forbidden zone. So how should parents teach their children related to drinking? We don't teach our children not to drink. We teach them how to drink. If you're. We don't have to drink, but if you're going to drink, you're responsible in front of us. You know, when you get to a certain age, you know, if you want to order a drink, order a drink. Don't drink too much. We have no alcoholism in our family and no one has a problem with alcohol. Our son in law, Corey, is a German. He's the youngest of seven boys. They made beer in their bathtub.

Wow.

They had the most wonderful family. So they made beer in their bathtub. Cory grew up around it all of his life. He has six brothers. Five of them are doctors, one's a pastor, and Corey runs a Christian foundation in San Antonio. And there's not one of those boys who has a problem with alcohol. None of his family. Because it wasn't this forbidden.

It wasn't right.

You know, speaking of Germans, I read a letter Martin Luther wrote to his wife from all those years ago. And he was talking about his love for her and how he couldn't wait to get home. And he talked in this letter about how she brewed the best beer in the world. He's tried it other places and nobody makes beer like you. And I can't wait to get home and have one. And so, so those.

Well, I just, you know, I just love this subject because there are some people that you're not going to drink, and that's great. You have a conviction about it. Some people just genetically or whatever, they should never take a drink. But for most people, if you're drinking in moderation, the Bible never says you can't do that. It's a God made wine. And there's also beer, there's hard liquor and there's a lot of stuff. But as long as you're doing it in moderation, especially when it's harming your marriage, it's wrong. Sure, yes. I'm not talking about the legalism and all that stuff, but I'm just saying if you're not able to relate, if you're not able to engage sexually, if you're checked out over here in a recliner, passed out, you got to confront that.

Absolutely.

But for most people who are healthy people, there's not any prohibition I can see in the Bible.

That is just. This has been so healthy conversation.

Yeah.

And these conversations, I think in so many church settings, there's a fear of having this conversation. I think a lot of us grew up in churches where it was never talked about this candidly. It was just we don't this and sex. So like, I love that here at Exo, we're willing to have the conversations of what people are actually asking.

Well, there's the old story about the difference between a Presbyterian and Episcopalian, and that is the Episcopalians talk to each other in the liquor store. I know believers who are absolutely against drinking and they take so many pills and so many drugs, they'll sit there and pop painkillers all day long. I'm totally against that. I take a Thyroid pill when I get up in the morning, or maybe an allergy pill sometimes. I'm not going to sit there and put that nonsense into my body. That will destroy your body, those heavy drugs. And if you need medicine, take it. But a lot of people medicate on drugs and they'll say, don't you drink? They're on a buzz right there when they told you that, right?

No, you're so right. Oh, man. This has been such a helpful conversation. I cannot. I just listen. For those who've been listening and watching this, anybody that you know where this has been a sticking point for them, whether it's through the legalism aspect or from overindulgence or just from not knowing how to talk about it, or specifically the parenting aspect, I think so many parents could benefit from learning this approach because I know so many people that raise their kids in this kind of teetotalling environment that now those kids have grown up and abuse alcohol, just like Jimmy said. That's just the pattern where it goes into. Instead, teach your kids a healthy way. This is so helpful for us as our kids are getting to that age where they're about to be of age to start being able to. And it's just been so, so healthy. Jimmy, thank you. Thank you for your ministry.

You guys are fabulous. You are making such a difference. We love you here at xo. And your ministry is just helping so, so many people. And we love you. We just think you're. Well, I know you're the next Jimmy and Karen.

No, no, no. There's only one Jimmy and Jimmy and Karen.

That's. You're the next Jimmy and Karen. Putting that on you right now.

Well, let me be honored. Let us say, while we're, like, on the record here, like I truly, outside of our own parents and Jesus himself, I don't know if there's been any family on earth that's impacted us in a positive way through their example, love, leadership, and authenticity. As Jimmy Evans and his entire family, Karen, Brent, Stephanie, all of them, we love you guys. So thank you.

Thank you for.

Before we go, I want to make sure that we mention the Tipping Point podcast, because I think our listeners, if they're not already listening, would love to hear more about this.

Well, it's end. Times.com is where they can sign up now. The Tipping Point podcast is a part of a much broader prophetic website, and it's $7 a month, $77 a year. And we have my podcast that comes out every week. Plus we have articles and videos from Greg Laurie, Dr. Mark Hitchcock. I have all different guests from around the country on there with me. So we would love for people to be a part of that.

So check that out. Jimmy is, I believe, the best in the world in three separate categories in teaching, teaching on end times, teaching on marriage, and also teaching on leadership within the church. Those three areas, I've never heard anyone better. And so check out those resources. Jimmy, thank you. Thank you for your example.

Good to be with you. Love you.

Love you. And thank you guys for listening. We'll see you next time.

Bye, guys.