From Addiction to Redemption with Eric Kennedy

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Find upcoming training dates and register at exomarriage.com. Hello and welcome back to the Naked Marriage Podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast, we uncover God's design for lifelong love. And you guys, we have a real treat for you today with this interview, and Dave is going to tell you all about it.

Yeah, one of my very favorite people on earth, Eric Kennedy, and we're going to hear a lot of his story. He is the founder of a ministry called RecoveryVal. And his story is going to impact you. So you picked a great day to tune into the Naked Marriage podcast. Let's dive in.

And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Hey friends, I am so excited about today's episode, and I know I say that every time, but I really extra mean it this time because our dear friend Eric Kennedy.

Yes.

We both—

we're dressed like twins tonight.

We both flew. We all flew from Augusta, Georgia to Dallas to do this here.

We could have done it in Augusta.

I know, but we don't have this amazing giant Naked Marriage wall behind us and this incredible 10-inch TV. Okay.

Look at this massive wall.

Right, it's an awesome wall.

Now we're so glad to be here at the XO headquarters. And Eric has an amazing podcast called Recovery Vow that's part of the XO Network and doing incredible stuff. He's a dear friend, as we said in the intro. Welcome back to the podcast.

Welcome back.

Hey, I told you yesterday or day before yesterday, I feel like the theme song from Welcome Back, Kotter should be playing. Welcome back.

Yes.

That, we need that.

We're still welcome. I mean, we are so excited. We've been giddy all week that we're back.

We're back, yeah.

Doing The Naked Marriage. And so we absolutely wanted you to be one of the very first guests.

Well, I appreciate it. I really do. And it's so good to see you guys here. It's just a, it's a, it's a true vibe. Like really, you guys are a vibe. And so I'm so honored to be here. You guys were my first guests on my podcast. First guest ever.

I forgot about that.

That's true.

Yeah. Can you tell us, I would love for you to catch the audience up since that time because a lot has happened with the Recovery Val podcast and all that you're doing.

Yeah. I mean, thank you so much. So when we, when I first started Recovery Val was gonna be the, the name of the book that I wanted that you helped me get into the eyes of the folks here at XO. And, you know, I said, I love the name Recovery Vow. It's just two words. You can, you know, if it's on the table at home, it's not like people are going to be nosy. And they said, yeah, that's great, but we're not going to use that. We're going to use Marriage After Addiction: Take Back Your Life Together, which makes sense now because of the keywords in there when it's— yeah, people are searching for it. But they said, we like Recovery Vow, so why don't you keep that? And so I kept it. And so Recovery Vow is now like this brand, and the book falls under there. The next book will fall under there, the podcast, and our, what we call the Recovery Collective, which is our coaching platform and networking. And we also have our own line of coffee now, which is pretty fun. So cool.

Yes.

Yeah. But in your words, you said addicts love two things, coffee and cigarettes. And I figured that having a line of coffee would be easier with ministry than—

Versus peddling Marlboros and Winstons.

Right, right.

Or Newports. So yeah, I mean, those are, very different things. You got a book, you got a podcast, and you got The Collective. So the book is for, uh, specifically the supporting spouse of someone who's going through recovery, right? Um, and then the podcast, at first it was people coming and sharing their stories in recovery, but then if you think about it, everybody's in some kind of recovery. It doesn't have to be just drugs, alcohol, or process addiction. And we've had a ton of guests come on that just have shared life, that people just want to share their life, and it's their way of either not divulging, but just kind of maybe clearing their conscience and just being able to say that they shared it. And so the thing has grown when you look at it from a certain standpoint. My big focus is still just helping people in recovery and just giving them an out and giving them a way to just walk in this life that they've been given. Everybody, you know, gets a second chance. And, you know, I just want to help people see their second chance and be strong in that. And then the collective is just where I get to connect with them either by coaching or giving them workshops. You know, we do that, a monthly call. And then, you know, we are a nonprofit. So, you know, it just, you know, we have some fantastic donors and givers and they just, I think they're giving because they believe in Recovery Valley, but sometimes they're giving because they just want to help people they may never meet. You know what I mean? And so they want to know that they're planting a seed. And it's just been incredible to see what God's done with it when I just get out of the way and just let him do his thing, you know? Does that make sense?

I'd rather tell you, and it's friends, like, feeling like we've had a front row seat to watch what God's doing in your life and your amazing wife, Kristen, and your kids. And I'm just so excited for you as just one of my favorite people. But I'm so excited for all the people that are being impacted because you've got a unique gift to just help people because you get it. You come from addiction and God's just completely turned your life around. And so in case people maybe are new to you, maybe they missed your first interview here, why don't you give us a little bit of a recap recap of, of your own story, your own journey.

Okay, recovery. Um, I was born a small child in 1979. Remember how he started out in the movie The Jerk?

Yeah.

Um, no, I mean, I battled with addiction from the age of 13, 14 up till I was 30 years old. And then, um, you know, I just— one, I had two failed suicide attempts. Um, I was just sick and tired of being sick and tired, the whole, the whole woe is me addiction story, you know. I mean, I, I have a ton of stories I can share, but it's kind of like Forrest Gump movie, it would just go on for a long time. And but if you look at it from the addiction, it came from trauma. It came from the way that I was exposed to things at different ages. You know, it's just a lot of things happen at that 13, 14, 15-year-old for, for boys and girls, you know what I mean? And so for me, it just— I sought after being accepted. I wanted to hang out with an older crowd always. It would just—

is that why you're friends with me?

Are you older than me? Yeah, not much. I mean, like, older. I was a freshman, I'm hanging out with the seniors and people that are out of school. When I was in my 20s, I was hanging out with, with, uh, guys and, and girls that were in their 40s and 50s, you know, because I just felt like that was what I was supposed to do. I could, you know, and, and they, they were completely opposite of me, like, you know, It's hard to explain. It was just fun. I mean, I was— I hate to say, man, I was smoking pot with an older guy that we just hung out together, you know. We— and it just became something, you know, that I did. And then it just took over, you know. It just took over. I started, you know, the cocaine and stuff at work and just became the person that I wanted people just to laugh at, not with. Does that make sense? Yeah. But yeah, I did all the things that I felt like you were supposed to do. I met my first wife, who I'm good friends with now. We are good friends, and it's because we have two wonderful boys together.

Yeah, they're fine young men.

Amazing.

They are fine young men. And, you know, just, she was a part of that addiction journey. She didn't get the best out of me because of my decisions, you know what I mean? But it is what it is, and I don't like divorce, but it just didn't work out. I think that was the best for both of us. But, um, but yeah, I got to rock bottom by the time I was 30. I was living alone. I had the 2 DUIs, 2 suicide attempts, and, you know, all that darkness. Um, and then I'll be honest with you, that last day I had went to where I was, uh, by this time I was doing about $100 a day worth of crack and cocaine, and then I was drinking about half a gallon a day. And so that morning, I love to drink in the morning. I know this sounds weird, But I would watch The Golden Girls at like 6:30 in the morning because that's what my grandma did. And it gave me like a connection to her. And then I would use by 7. And it was because I had to use it. Like, my hands would shake when I would write. So I had to drink to calm that down. And I would use to kind of wake up instead of drinking coffee or something. And so the last day I went to where I was buying my drugs from and It was 7 o'clock in the morning. It was on a Thursday, and I crashed my car on the way on a dirt road. And I remember walking back and trying to figure out what I could do. Like, I was wanting this life change really bad. I just wanted things to be different. I remember just standing there like, this is it. Like, this is the way my life's going to be forever. And I kind of accepted it, but I was hoping like this white light moment would happen, and it just— and it just didn't. You know, and so I went back to the car that was, you know, off, off the ditch on the dirt road. I remember getting on my hands and knees. I was in shorts and flip-flops. I was digging this mud out. And I had stopped by this barn and kicked the wood off the walls and I carried it with me because I knew if I put it under those tires, I could get out. And I know this sounds like a lot, but I just want you to kind of be there with me.

Yeah, I'm there, man.

And so I did. I got the car out. The white light moment didn't happen. Doves didn't fly out of any tree. I went straight to where I was going to go and and I woke him up. I mean, he was getting his daughter ready for school, the drug man was. And I was like, I just need you to give me this. It was called a front. I said, I need you to front me $60 worth. And I left from there. I went to this old graveyard. It sounds so weird, but it was still dark outside. I was drinking and I was using. And I got back home, and it was the second time I'd ever called for help. I called an 800 number in a phone book, and At the time, I had a pretty good job. I mean, it wasn't a great job, but it had great benefits. And on the back of the card, I called for help. And, um, I'd love to tell you that I went that day to treatment, but I didn't. I went to jail because I got to the point where I was panhandling enough to support my habit, and people would turn me in. So I went to jail, spent 2 weeks there, got out, um, and then I went to treatment. But I just dove into it. I was still married, my kids were in diapers, and so I was not a good person. I wasn't a good son, I wasn't a good husband, I wasn't a good father. I just wasn't good at anything, you know. So I need to hit this life reset button. This is the only opportunity I get. Some spiritual things happen, you know, as I went through treatment. Um, but I got out, uh, I did 30, 32 days in a treatment center in Florida, and it just, it just became that. Like, I did— I— and I hate to say it selfishly, I got to unplug from everything that, right, that I needed to unplug from. I didn't get to see the kids. I didn't get to talk— getting to talk to them. I didn't have a bill to pay. I didn't have a wife I was responsible for and have a job I was responsible for. And It sounds horrible, but it's exactly what I needed. And then when I got out, you know, I did the transitional housing, and then her and I decided to try to work things out. And we, we made it for about 9 months, but I had devoted myself to my sobriety to where I chose that over my marriage. And it's not in a bad way, it's in a way that was good, gonna be good for her because I had drug her through this. Hellfire and brimstone. And there was no making up for that. And so, like, okay, the best thing for us to do is just to part ways. Now, I got— so at 9 months sober, I got custody of 2 little boys, and we kind of just went out on our own and we started over. And I mean, it was hard, but it wasn't as hard as what it could have been if I'd have stayed, you know, in my addiction. And then I never went to church a lot. I just was ignorant to understanding what it meant. Like, I had a belief, but I never went to church. And then it was around Easter. I was going to these 12-step meetings and this friend of mine, she said, "You should really try this church." And she sent me a video of Dave and Todd and I got to use work with us dancing and talking about tithing. And it was like—

It was The Tithe Rap? No way!

And I was like, let me tell you something. I've got 3 rules here. If they put their hands in the air, if there's snakes there, right?

Right.

If they start speaking in some kind of weird language, I'm not going. But now you showing me this and you want my money already and no budget. Wow.

Wow.

But I went. It was on Easter weekend, um, 2000 and... 11. Um, and I mean, I cried my eyes out. I mean, I really did. And it wasn't long after that I got introduced to you guys. Um, and you know, you and I became friends, and you kind of helped me walk through understanding you're not ignorant, you're just not understanding how this relationship works. And, and so you and I became really good friends, so much that, um, I actually gave you my 2-year sobriety chip, which was a great honor. Yeah, you were a lot smaller then. You weren't as Hulk Hogan as you are now. But, but I do remember that. And it just meant a lot, like, for you to show up and somebody from that church that wasn't there to church me. You were there just to support me because you understood. And you just, you really helped me. You and Marty really started to help me understand this is what it looks like to be a dad. This is what it looks like to, to walk in what God's given you. And I remember like going outside, even though we didn't have a lot, I started thanking God for this apartment I was in or this, this old beater truck that I was driving. It got me from where, you know, the different places I need to go. And so it was just understanding. And so when you talk about how much Recovery Vow's grown, it's not Recovery Vow, that's— it really is what God's got planned for us. Yeah, you know, whether we're in our marriage or we're in the work that we want to do, it's— he had all that in store. And if he'd given it to me in that white light moment I was looking for in that field that morning, it wouldn't have been what it is now. Even if he'd given it to me like on year 2 when you were there, it probably wouldn't— it wasn't time.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? And so it just became that time. And so that's why—

it's timing. It's always perfect.

Yeah, it is. And remind, like, how many years sober now? I think it's 12. Am I wrong? Or more?

Okay, it'll be 16 in September.

Are you serious?

16?

Way underestimating. That's amazing.

It makes me feel old.

It does make me feel—

I know, I was going to say, now I feel really old.

Yeah. September 2010.

That's incredible, Eric. That's awesome.

I flew out. The insurance, because I had the good insurance, they flew me out of Augusta. And so the last drink I took was at the Atlanta airport and the last time I used was that morning. And I haven't drank or used anything since. It's been fun. Like, it's, you know, there's been hard times. I mean, sure. And even still in my relationship, like, I met my wife Kristen at Stevens Creek Church. And, you know, we've, we've grown. I had to learn her and she had to learn me. And what I mean by that is understand that I didn't have the same upbringing. Matter of fact, it was a lot different because of my addiction. And she didn't have to choose to walk in that. Oh, plus, by the way, here's two little baby boys that you need to kind of mama, you know, and nurture too. And then, you know, we have a little girl together now, but it's just been a lot of fun. Yeah, she's a saint. I mean, I just want so, so much for her. I mean, she is— she didn't have to do any of this, and she does it because she loves me and she loves those boys. And she's just— she's walking in her calling as a mom. And that's all.

Well, we both married way up. I want to give a quick bit of encouragement to the single guys, though, of like, how did— because Eric, this is— this was, was perfection. When he, he noticed Kristen walk into church All of a sudden he found her number.

I'm a stalker.

And he started calling her like on behalf of the church, right? She thought he was like a welcome committee. She's telling her friends, this church is like the most welcoming place. This guy who's like part of this like welcome committee or something, he keeps calling, checking on me. And next thing you know, you're dating. I don't even think she realizes you're dating. She just thinks she's just part of the—

We went on one date where I was brand new to Facebook. And I went straight to in a relationship. Because if I pay for your dinner, I love it. And we go on a date.

She said she got, after this first night with you, a request, a Facebook request, which in the olden days, young people, is how we would do it. Uh, like, you're in a relationship with this guy, and she had to like accept or deny.

Like, after she broke up with me for 2 weeks.

Dude, she really—

she did. For 2 weeks she broke up with me.

No, but hey guys, what I want Eagerness and pursuit that borders sometimes on stalking.

It was. It was complete stalking.

Can pay off because like a lot of these young guys, they won't even talk to a woman.

So nervous. Look, I'm telling you, if you are single, hurry up and get with somebody, please, because it's hard out there. I mean, it really is.

Yeah.

And I think that's what I was scared of. Like, I was 30 at the time. Not that that's old. That is. Yeah. So young. Yeah, but, um, being at that stage of my life with, with two, two boys, like, I didn't want to be by myself, you know. And it's not that I was trying to rush it, like, I knew she was the one right away. I knew she was the one, but I was rushing it because I wanted to be married, right? And I wanted a healthy marriage for me to see.

Yeah.

And I wanted it for Cameron and Christian to see. Um, I was a really good dad. I'm a horrible mom. Like, we— I would do laundry on Sundays and just throw that junk in on the floor in my bedroom and say, hey, go grab what you want, and we throw in the dryer. And that's how I ironed. We lived off Mexican food and Pop-Tarts. So it wasn't like they didn't need that, you know, that wasn't my job. And but they've got a mom who does a great job, but then they've got Kristen who gave them that, you know, for the majority during the day that they needed to see it, you know, that nurturing side that I didn't offer.

Great. Which is so beautiful because, you know, we have a lot of blended families, you know, that watch and listen to this and You guys are just such a great example of blending well. And I know that's no easy feat. Like, I mean, that is no easy feat. And even you having such respect for your first wife and having a friendship there, like what security that gives your kids too. And just the peace that brings, you know, and I'm sure that was hard fought. I mean, that doesn't happen easily either.

Yeah, I mean, it's, you say this on a podcast because, you know, it's not every day's perfection, you know?

Of course.

And it's not like I have two wives, that's not it at all, but I have to maintain balance. Like, yeah, you know, I set the tone and then it's because of my tone. Either it can go really good conversations or it can go bad. And I maintain the good at home as often as I can and then just kind of cut off where I need to outside of the house. Does that make sense?

Absolutely.

And it's just a balance. It's a— that's how I respect, that's how I earn the respect. And then that's just how we parent when it comes to Cameron Christian's mom. And then with Kristen, I mean, I give her full authority because she makes better decisions than I do. I mean, she really does. She's just— she's really great. And if it wasn't for her and her support in this, I wouldn't be able to do Recovery Vow and find the balance of working at the church and, you know, all the things that we get to do. So, yeah, I mean, I can't shout her out enough, but we have learned a lot. You know, we, we, we, you know, we wrote a book, you know, that with XO that talks about this is what you're supposed to do. Well, we have to do those things too, you know. So it's not like, oh, well, here's the tool, we don't need it. You know, we're mechanics too. We have to use these tools.

Of us too, on everything that we put out. We say all the time, like, we're not here as experts. We're on the journey with you. We're encouraging each other in this, and I love it.

Absolutely. I would love to hear, you know, you've done all these interviews on Recovery Vow, and so many, I mean, I haven't listened to every episode, but I've listened to a lot, and I know that there's so many incredible stories. What comes to mind in the interviews you've done of just, a really incredible marriage story when it comes to overcoming addiction? And, um, just any that, like, come to mind that you would like to share?

Um, the— there's two. Um, so Haley and Todd Nault are from Texas. Okay. Haley found the podcast while Todd was in treatment, and she went back and listened to all of them, starting with yours. And so she found confidence in hearing it from other people, which is great. And Haley's Haley and Todd are probably in their late 20s, early, early 30s, and they have 4 kids all under 10.

Wow.

Okay, so she's got her hands full, but she's like, I found this, and then I ordered the book and told him about it while he was in treatment. And then when he got out, they went through the book together. He went back and started listening to the podcast, and then he came here the day before he celebrated his 1-year anniversary, and they did the podcast here with us in in studio. And since then, you know, they've shared their testimony with their church. They've led small groups, and they use that book and give it out to other people. And so I think about, you know, me being in my mid-late 40s— I mean, generationally, you want to hit every target, right? From the 20s to the however, you know, 100 years old. But for me to know that it reached somebody that in that age bracket was powerful, because—

and where you were when you started, really.

Right.

And it just kind of removes like there's no age barrier or anything when it comes to people being— need to be in their recovery.

Right.

So to hear Todd and Haley's story and having children, it's just— that's when I prayed about this, when I presented this to you, I'm like, I just felt like God wants me to— I need to leave some kind of a legacy. You know, what kind of a legacy can I leave when I'm not here one day? And I was able to help maybe change somebody's life. That's huge, you know. Um, and then the other is, um, a lady named Kat that I found randomly on TikTok one night. I invited her to come here February of last year. And then I met a guy named Zach when I was here at XO, and he was doing a podcast. Well, I had this donor lunch in North Augusta back earlier in the year, and I introduced those two who were on the podcast at two different times. And then last month I was in California, and and I married him. I'm gonna get married.

That's amazing.

I think I saw a post about that.

Yeah, and so they're coming here as a couple tomorrow to record. So not only are we rebuilding marriages, now we can say we're actually helping build marriages.

You're helping build, right.

So, you know, if you ask a story, those, a family that's been healed from them choosing recovery together and walking through recovery together, and then this couple that were in recovery, both of those are in recovery and now they're building their relationship and gonna have children, you know what I mean? So it's not about me, it's like, God heard that prayer, like, okay, here's this legacy, this tool you want to leave, this book, you know, this nonprofit, and this is how I'm gonna— this is how I'm gonna lead it.

And it just— I love it.

It's been kind of cool to see that, and to see that in the first year, right? You know what I mean? Like, people wait decades before you get something like that. So I'm just very thankful for that.

It's awesome.

Oh man, I— my heart's so full just seeing, seeing what God's doing. Through you, through this ministry. I mean, I just love it. I just absolutely love it. And I wanna encourage all of you guys watching and listening to this to look up Eric Kennedy online, look up Recovery Vow. It's a great follow. The video clips that get put out are—

Some of them are edgy.

Yeah, I know.

No, I love it.

Sometimes it's you just sweating. There was one where you put viewer discretion advised.

And you were like, you said what?

And that it was bad.

Did you see it yet?

Not yet. Not yet. I've made a note to go watch it.

It was very specific. Yeah. But hey, I love how real. Right before recovery. I love how real and raw it is. I mean, it is. And that's Eric's heart. I mean, it is heart full of grace, heart that understands the dark places that sin and addiction can take us, but who also understands the depth of God's grace and how beautiful it is on the other side and how our story, our story when we share it, can help other people thrive. And your testimony, man, it's like it's changed our church, your presence there, your heart for helping the addiction recovery community. And then it's just bubbled over. Now our church was kind of the launchpad and now, I mean, you're reaching people all over the world. And I'm just so thrilled. So before we get to, we're gonna pivot in a minute and get to a question that you're gonna help us answer.

Okay.

But first, like just tell people, anything you want them to know about how they can find you, what resources you'd like to get into their hands?

You know, if, if you are watching this and you decide to follow Recovery Vow on any of our social media platforms, or if you subscribe on our YouTube channel, you can email me direct. If you're hearing this and you are in need of help or just want to connect, you can email me at recovery@gmail.com. Again, like I said, we, we have our own coffee line now. We'd love for you to— I'll send you some coffee for you to try. But yeah, if it's a resource, the book, it's on Amazon or you can get on our website. If it's the podcast, you can listen or stream it anywhere. If it's the collective, you can go to recoverybound.com and join the collective there. And then if it's the coffee, you can go to recoveryboundcoffee.com. If you go to our website, you can just find all of that. Yeah. And yeah.

And if you know somebody that has a great story that might be a good guest, the interviews they have are amazing. You know, I'm sure you're always looking for more great stories.

I'm always looking for more stories. And I mean, it's kind of like legal panhandling now because we're a nonprofit. I feel like I'm out asking for money all the time and just not going to jail for it anymore. But, but you have to do it. You do.

You have to support the mission. It's a great mission.

But we've done— we've had some fantastic donors and givers come along and we need more of them to just continue growing and continue investing back into the organization to help it reach more people.

Yeah. And it is a wonderful cause. So if you're able to contribute in that way, definitely do so. Well, friends, we are going to pivot to today's question of the day. Thank you for those who send in questions. And as always, you can do that. Write us on Instagram @DaveandAshleyWillis or go to nakedmarriagepodcast.com. Today's question says this. First off, I love your show. Thank you.

Thank you.

This is probably for my mom. That sucks.

No, no, no.

Your banter is great and so raw. I feel like what I hear is how you'd be talking as if we're face to face. Well, thank you for that. My question is this: my wife and I have been married going on 5 years, and we have 2 daughters. One is my 14-year-old stepdaughter, and the other is our 3-year-old. We both come from broken homes, and my wife has dealt with sexual and physical abuse from many men since childhood. Some of that pain she takes out on me in various ways. Divorce is not in my vocabulary, but over time it's become more of an option. But I'm determined to honor God first in my commitment to him and our marriage, even though she dishes it out pretty hard. What should I do? So thank you for that message, your encouraging words. And our heart breaks for you and for your wife who is acting out of brokenness. And broken people do broken things until they find healing. And so I'm glad we got Eric here to help with this one because this is a big one.

Yeah. The first thing that comes to mind is just something Marty shared. It's hurt people hurt people. And so she's hurting, you know. And, um, and so our job in this is to figure out, um, the timing. It's probably timing to when to have the hard conversation or have a conversation about what you should do next and share your thoughts on how you get to the— some kind of an end game. But, you know, all of us have something, you know. And so she— this is her thing. We just had to figure out how to help her nurture it and figure it out. Would be my opinion. Again, I'm not a marriage expert. I just think through some of the teachings I've heard, like hurting people hurt people.

And you've walked with hurting people through a lot, so I would say you've got a lot of expertise, even though this isn't necessarily addiction-related. It's pain and brokenness related.

The sexual abuse becomes a part of the trauma, you know, and that could have been like 13 or 14, 15 for her, or it sounds like it was kind of ongoing. So I mean, she's dealing with that where she could have easily turned to an addiction or acting out in a different way.

Yeah, It's horrific that anybody would experience that kind of abuse. And we, we, we wanna help with the healing part for both of you, for the husband who's feeling now like that he's being abused as a result of the unhealed trauma and abuse that she went through. But we also wanna help her, right? So I would, I would say get into counseling individually and together. And there are a lot of great resources for that. Talk to one of the marriage coaches here at XO Marriage. You go to xomarriage.com, have an initial call, talk about your story, and see what options are available, which will include doing an intensive either in person or online to try to get to the heart of some of this brokenness and to get on the same page. Sweetie, as a counselor here, like, you've really worked with a lot of people, um, of all of us, you know, you I'm expecting you to have the best answer. No pressure.

But there's no—

you've just helped. You've had these conversations so often. And so what have you learned?

There's no easy answer. I mean, that's just the truth. And there's probably a lot more layers to this than can be put just in one little question. But my thing is, I think it's interesting that the stepdaughter— so I'm assuming this is her daughter— is 14. What Eric said, I'm wondering if there's a bit of triggering at this same age. I'm sure this is probably around the age maybe that she was enduring abuse. It could have even started earlier than this. And that can, whether she realizes it or not, it can be triggering. It can be a reminder of that time in her life. And a lot of times when we have this trauma that bubbles up, you know, trauma isn't linear. Like there's, you know, there's sometimes you can't even figure out like the starting point. It's just, it can come up whenever we can recall it very fast, right? And it just, it might be triggering in this season of life with her daughter. In just that adolescent, early teenage year time in her life. But I think that when we're triggered with our trauma, sometimes we push those closest to us away, almost like testing them, like, how far can I take you that I'm so terrible that I know I'm just gonna convince you to leave because everybody eventually either abuses me or leaves. And so we tend to do this whether we realize it or not, because you said she's dishing it out really hard. And so the best thing you can do, I mean, it kind of reminds me a little bit, and this isn't exactly the same story, but of Hosea and how, you know, when Hosea was pursuing his wife and how much she would push, you know, men had used her her whole life, and she just kept on wanting to push his love away. And I would encourage you to go read that story, and it's really a picture of what God does to us and just pursuing us. As the bride of Christ. But it's really beautiful how Hosea loves her despite her behavior. And I'm not telling you to endure any kind of verbal abuse here at all. There needs to be some ground rules. There needs to be boundaries put in place. But I also think, you know, just continuing to love her where she is and reminding her like, hey, I'm here. I don't even want divorce on the table, but I can't have you talk to me like this. So I'm gonna give you a moment. I'm gonna give you some time to come down from this because I love you. But just take some time 'cause I wanna come back and talk about this, but right now I think we're just hurting each other. And just speaking to her calmly, acknowledging the pain she's been through, and just saying like, listen, I wanna be here for you, but sometimes, and you can tell her this, sometimes I don't know what to say or do, but I would love to go to a counselor with you so that we can be learning some skills in dealing with this. You gotta be really careful with your words here because you don't want her to hear you're damaged goods. 'cause that's what she's probably thought her whole life. And so you do not want to, you know, encourage her to believe those lies from the enemy because she already probably has a very low view of herself with how people have treated her. And so you have this wonderful opportunity to love her right where she is and to show her God's love through your love for her. And so I think a counselor could really help you to have support because you can't, neither one of you can do all this on your own. You need healing within community. And so, do what Dave said. Go to exomarriage.com, book an intensive with one of the exomarriage coaches, maybe even talk to one of your pastors at the church. And if your wife is willing— again, she's going to have to be willing— but there are counselors that specialize in sexual abuse and what people have been through. They know how to help someone overcome the wounds of that, which are very, very tender and so heartbreaking. And I just think that would be a great next step for her, but it might start with both of you going. So you know, she can see that you're willing to come alongside her and work on things.

Yeah, one additional resource I'll throw out specifically for the sexual abuse part, we have an earlier episode on the Naked Marriage podcast where we interview some other friends of ours also from Augusta, Tyler and Alyssa Gordon. And Tyler, Alyssa and her sister both grew up, and her sister was also a dear friend of ours, Kayla.

Babysitter for many years.

Babysitter for us for many years.

Yeah.

They, unknown to us at the time, were experiencing just some horrific sexual abuse at the hand of their stepfather and one of their stepfather's friends. And eventually that came out and those men are now in prison where they belong, but it was very, very horrific what they endured. And Alyssa's testimony and talking about the healing that she's found in the Lord, how her husband supported her in that, how they've worked through that together, I think that conversation could be helpful. Yes. Um, just as a something to listen to together to maybe understand each other's perspective a little bit better and to create a path healing moving forward. So we're praying for both of you. Uh, thank you for that question, and thanks to all of you for tuning in today. And thank you to our dear friend Eric Kennedy, the man, the myth. We love him so much. Um, and, uh, check out Recovery Val. It even if you yourself haven't struggled with addiction, I promise you this ministry is gonna be an encouragement to you. And we're so, so honored to be on this journey with you guys. So—

That's right.

Thanks so much. We'll see you next time.