Conflict Resolution

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Hello and welcome back to the Naked Marriage podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast, we address the truth about sex, intimacy and lifelong love. And you guys, we are so excited about the guests we have in studio today. They are dear friends of ours, but they are also pastors. And Susan is a counselor. And you guys, they are going to share just gold with you today. And so please make sure you listen all the way to the end of this episode.

That's right. So I'm gonna invite the cameras to pan out for those watching on YouTube and you'll see these two beautiful people in studio with us. Ashley, told you there. Our dear friends Brandon and Susan Thomas, the founders of Keystone Church in Keller, Texas, a church that we called home during our time when we were living there. And we just love it and love them, and they have such amazing insights for relationships, both as their work as pastors and Susan's work as a licensed professional counselor. And we're going to have a great conversation today. So, guys, thank you for being here.

So glad, excited, glad to be here.

We're excited to have you here.

Let's dive in. Well, we are so excited to have some very special friends here today, Susan and Brandon Thomas. And we just love them. We love you guys. And we're so honored to have you guys on the podcast. And we're going to talk about some really important things when it comes to marriage, and that is especially when it comes to conflict, conflict resolution, and specifically when we are resolving conflicts around sex. And so I'm really excited about this episode because we get tons of messages about this. And I know you guys talk to tons of people about this as pastors and as a counselor. And so we're going to dive right in.

Yeah, so this is what we do. Like when we get hard questions, we just bring on people who are smarter than us to answer. And that's what we've done today. We've tricked them into coming to answer these hard questions for us. And now we are really just honored that you Guys are here. And like we said during the intro, Brandon and Susan, they're just the real deal. In fact, they, for our, were our pastors for a season when we were living here in the Keller area where their beautiful church is. And we just were so blessed by their ministry and continue to be. But they're helping folks in so many different ways. And they're great, great at giving, giving biblical grounded advice as it relates to relationships. And so, guys, first, before we kind of dive into the question we've got, like, just how are you guys navigating this season that you're in? Because you've, You've got, you know, you're leading a thriving, growing church. You're. You're relocating that church through a major building project. You've got kids going off to college, kids still at home. You're getting pulled in just 100 different directions, you know, and. And yet somehow you're aging in reverse. Like I would have just like all white hair and be grizzled looking. But you guys are doing it with such grace. So what are you learning just in your own marriage right now, like, this.

Season, you know, first of all, so honored to be here. Seriously. I thought we were going to lunch, and here we are. No, but truthfully, this is an honor and we're so thrilled with what God is doing through both of you. Speaking into the areas that it. Honestly, if we don't speak into these areas. Right. The culture is loud.

Yeah, it's true.

The culture is loud. And the church has often been silent. And, and so how we're navigating this crazy world, building a building in the middle of a pandemic, you know, I.

Mean, that little thing you get when no one gathers.

Yeah.

I mean, it's just. It's a, It's a very unusual time, right? It's. You don't learn this stuff when you're going through ministry school or seminary wherever you go. But one of the words that I've been giving the church is you can't do this in the flesh. And that's biblical language for saying the Bible talks about doing things in the flesh. And what that means is you can't do this on your own strength. You have lids, right? You have lids of capacity. You only know so many people. You only have so much education. You only have so much money. You only have so many places you can turn. And so ultimately, both of us in this season have utterly, completely leaned on the Holy Spirit of God. And it's amazing how he brings things out of us that we didn't know were there. Right. Pain tolerance is sometimes that. Patience tolerance, you know. So I think it's. I think that's my overwhelming response is the. Is the presence of the Holy Spirit, of God, lifting lids, increasing capacity and building endurance and wisdom and all of that.

And whether you're talking about, as you said, conflict, sex, whatever marriage topic, or just stressors as a family and growing kids and building a church and all the things. At the end of the day, it's being a team anchored in Jesus. If you're not. If we're not anchored in Jesus, we won't be a team. And if we're not a team, we're going to be a house divided. And so that's huge for us. And it's a refining process as it is for any human. You see the good, the bad, and the ugly. But the prayer is that you're growing. And that's our hope, is that we're growing in the middle of it all and getting stronger in the middle of it all.

Yeah, because God's preparing you for something always. Right. And I know for many years, especially with what's going on in your life right now with the building and with all the kids growing up so fast. We were just talking about that before even recording this. I mean, it is, It's a preparation even for more. And so it's not like it all of a sudden, stop, you arrive. Until heaven. Right? Exactly. Until heaven. So it's. We're always learning these things and so kind of to. To get back into what we're talking about with, with conflict resolution. I think that so many couples kind of reach that sticking point because when they get through a conflict and then all of a sudden there's another one, they're like, wait a minute, we're just damaged, you know what I'm saying? And I know you all see that too, with the couples in your. In your church and couples you, you work with. I think that especially they've been through a lot of conflict and then they do come through. It's just demoralizing to them because they think, man, man, I thought that we had this fixed. I thought that we wouldn't have to deal with this again. What would you say to that couple who's listening right now, who's like, it just seems like all we do is fight. Like, I thought we were through this, but we're not.

Yeah. I would say Susan has a lot to say about this. This is honestly a message of her heart. She has incredible teaching on conflict resolution. But I'd say conflict resolution. You know, just those two words. You know, we all live with conflict, but not all of us live with resolution. Yeah, you know, we all live with conflict. Conflict is a reality of life. It's a part of our broken world, part of our broken nature. But I think a lot of us settle to live with conflict. And, you know, the Bible talks about how, you know, don't go to bed angry. You know, don't. Don't let the sun set on your wrath. You know, we are not made by God to carry conflict, to carry anger, to carry bitterness. That's not how our soul was made. It's not. Our shoulders are not bent for that. And so when we do carry it, most of us do. I mean, whether that's conflict from family or within the marriage, when you carry that, it's toxic and it changes you. And so I'd say to that couple, start off with conflict is reality. You don't ever escape it. But resolution is something you could work toward.

Yes, I love that. And it's so well said. The resolution piece is so crucial when people really understand how damaging conflict that is not resolved in marriage is, how it will destroy the fabric of your unity. When we understand that, it motivates us to learn how to resolve God's way. And when it comes to conflict in marriage, it's what we're saying, it starts with expectation for that couple. That's like, why are we especially broken? Why are we the ones so messed up? No, the reality is you're human.

Yeah.

You have a pulse. And we need Jesus. Everybody does. It's a level playing field from the get go. But what we do from that level playing field is everything. And so when we understand, expectation wise, that because of Genesis 3, because sin hit us, crashed into us, we begin broken. And that brokenness just who begins to overflow when two broken people come together in marriage. So when we have that clear expectation, then it's like, okay, how do we move forward? How do we resolve that conflict between us? And this is a very long answer. As a counselor, this is something, a sea that I swim in. I'm passionate about it. But there's many ways to approach that conflict. One is you have to have the humility to say, you know, it's not about the right being right. It's about being together. That we're right, that we're okay. That that's my first driving motivation. And then the nuts and bolts of conflict. I believe there's three dominant conflicts in marriage. I believe there's misunderstanding. I believe there's true disagreements. We're on two different pages. And then I believe there's offense, a true offense we have. One of us has sinned on each other.

Right.

And often it's both of us. In the process, we've ended up sinning on one another. And depending on which lane of traffic you're in, when it comes to conflict, we approach those different types of conflict. Completely different. There's different ways we work towards peace. The Bible says, you know, his children work towards peace. We are. We are determined and committed to it. And nowhere do we need more peace than in our marriage. We need to have a home characterized by peace, not chaos, not fighting.

I love that.

That's so good.

So good.

And you guys have such unique insight and perspective. And you got your thumb on the pulse of what couples are going through right now, both as leaders of a church and then, Susan, also as your work as a licensed counselor. And right now, the weird time that we're in. Collectively, there are so many unique pressures in addition to all the other conflict sources people had up until the last couple years. But what are you seeing in your church and in your spheres of influence as people are coming to you for advice? What are the main sources of conflict that the couples are experiencing right now in your world, and what advice are you giving them for those specific sorts of conflict? Because chances are, if it's happening in your church and with your clients and your congregants, it's happening with our listeners, too. And so you're going to have a chance to kind of counsel them as well.

It's broken my heart as people have come back to church and you see one without the other.

Yeah.

You see one coming back with a different guy. It is utterly broken my heart to see the divorce that's occurred over the last 20 months. And I want them in the church. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying don't come 100%, but it breaks my heart because part of our mission is. Is to save marriages.

Right.

And so you're right. You're right. The conflict and the issues are real. I'd say the dominant big, huge sex and romance. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

There's a million other things, but if you want to start sex and romance.

Yeah. And I would agree with that. I believe that the stressors of the past year and a half, two years in our world, in our nation, in our homes, it is a pressure cooker that just. And it squeezes what is already there. Yes. It goes Back to our initial thought, that if we don't resolve the conflict, that conflict is going to destroy. And at the end of the day, the broken places inside of us, pressure squeezes that to come to the surface. So whether they're dealing with sex and romance just break down in their. In their relationship, or whether we are. Whether we are dealing with communication, that we haven't learned how to communicate God's way. And maybe we even downplay the importance of communication in our. In our marriages. Whether it's the way that we do things differently, our preferences, or just allowing selfishness to just slither in. You're stuck at home with each other for a while now. Everybody's working from home, and everybody's seeing that selfishness on full display. Right. And so all of those, I think, and more begin to squeeze a couple. And as you said, it's so heartbreaking when you see its ultimate destruction of a marriage.

Right?

Yeah, it is. And I know we've even seen that, you know, over the course of the pandemic. And I think that, you know, there are a lot of things that have been vying for people's attention, and I do think sometimes we just look for the easiest kind of exit, you know, because we're like, there's no way, like, fixing this seems so overwhelming. I just. I'd rather go with and find somebody new. Yeah, I just want to feel better. Exactly. And I'm just so lonely. Like, I think what we found, too, so many couples, they. They were in the house together, but never so lonely. And I think that we've heard from some couples where they're like, I didn't. I just realized I didn't even know my spouse. Like, I. I just. I felt like, why are we even in this? And it just break. It breaks our hearts, too. I mean, it's just so sad. But I don't think it's all bad. I think that it's good that maybe God brought to the forefront of what's really going on here because.

Right.

Because that's when we can actually deal with it. I think we were so accustomed before the pandemic hit of just being busy, running the kids everywhere, going to work every day, having all your activities, because it's really easy to avoid your problems when you're just so busy, you know, and then all of a sudden, the whole world stops, and it's like, oh, my gosh, wait a minute, we gotta deal with this. And so, you know, to the couple that hasn't, you know, that they're still Together, but they're, like, barely ha. Hanging on.

Yeah.

Where would you start with them?

Yeah, I mean, that is a great question. I mean, it all begins with why. Like, why? Where is all this coming from? Like, what? This dissatisfaction, this loneliness. Like, where is all this coming from? If they were sitting across from me, if they were sitting in a room with us and they were. We were on a couch. They were on a couch. We were sitting there talking. I would start with Genesis. Genesis 1:3. That for me, just. If you want to ask me, the preacher, right. I'm going to go to Genesis 1:3. Because you really can't understand the solution until you understand the true problem. And the true problem is that God made us to not have loneliness. God made us to not have conflict. God made us to be totally known, and he made us to be together. And yet what we learned is our first family, when they took a bite of that forbidden fruit, it broke everything top to bottom. And you can't put those pieces back together. It is broken, dead, gone. And so to understand that, that we come into marriage, I've got broken mouth disease. I've got broken ear disease. I've got broken eye disease. My emotions are upside down. My appetites need help. Right. To understand. That's your starting point in marriage. It really does help understand why this person's being so selfish. Why this person, whoa, I didn't see that. Dating, you know, or, you know, and the fact that something would accrue over a period of time. Well, that. That's. That's the way it goes if you're not working on it.

Right.

Yeah. And I've told so many couples when I had the privilege to walk with people in pain and as a counselor, just as a minister, the truth is, in a starting point, your question being what do you tell that person? Just, I don't know where to begin. This is overwhelming. I will tell them, and often people come to me for marriage counseling. We're here for us. We're in a bad place. If your number one goal is to save your marriage, your marriage likely will not be saved. If as a couple, your number one goal is to know Jesus and love him and be loved by him. I have 100 out of 100 in over two decades of practice when both couples just embrace that as their number one goal. I have yet to see a failure.

Right. Yeah.

In all my hours and hours of working with people. And it's because it's not churchy language. It's not just, oh, that's what pastors say. That's what you hear in a message. It is truth that when Jesus becomes your number one pursuit, he's going to show you how to pursue your spouse. He's going to show you how the pieces broke apart because of our sin and our brokenness. And he's the one going to help put that back together. So really, that is the starting point. Now, there's a whole lot of techniques, there's a whole lot of wonderful direction that we receive on what is the role of a husband and spouse. The Bible tells us such great wisdom there. How do we have sex in our marriage? First Corinthians 7 gives us great guidelines for that. How do we communicate with one another? Proverbs is chock full with very tangible specifics of how communication works and doesn't work. But the beginning point is, where am I with Jesus? Because everything else, I'm going to be exhausted by the end, and it really won't work.

Yeah, real tangible example of that. For example, that you could take guy, girl, a good example for a guy. Say you're in a. Say you're in a marriage where physical is not happening.

Yeah, okay.

And I'm a guy, and I'm for proverbial, on the couch, or literally on the couch. Bread and water, however you want to say it. We're not having sex. And for whatever reasons. Where do you go as a guy? I think a lot of guys, they then give themselves a hall pass for all kinds of things that would sabotage any hope of a healthy marriage. And so they begin to indulge in those things, even say words like, well, God and I have a deal, or God understands what I'm going through. And what we would teach them is. No, no, no, hang on. If you will realign your focus that her. Her giving you sex is not. Is not really the ultimate need that you have. It is a need.

Yes.

It's a real need. I'm not diminishing that. But first, seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness. All these things we added to you. The practical application of that is man. I want to just hone in on Jesus with you. Like, Jesus, you're my everything. Like, go to him in the middle of the night, Go to Him when you're. When you're lonely, go to Him. When you feel the temptation, go to him and say, God, I'm counting on you to be my everything. Fill my heart. And it's. And at that point, you're leaning on him for things that someone else could never satisfy.

And on the other side of that for a woman. Or maybe honestly this has been true for men or women. It's not always just one, but at times, if you're a woman in a marriage where you're not feeling that attraction, you're not feeling that desire for sexual. Then when Jesus is your first pursuit and you're saying, God, I want to follow you, then feelings do not drive you. Faith drives you. Now, I'm not talking about an abusive. A physically abusive marriage, but there's moments in a. In a just a marriage where you say, God, I know that you have designed sexual intimacy as part of your creation for intimacy between my husband and me. And so there's times when I'm gonna faith it, not fake it.

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Nice.

Thank you.

I love that.

I like that.

Yeah, that's really good.

Yeah, we do. We hear from so many like that. Like, the feelings aren't quite there for a variety of reasons, you know, but seeing it, you know, through the. The. Your faith, you know, and knowing like Jesus. Jesus can help me to fulfill this need for my husband, but also, you know, bring us closer together through the process. And it's really a matter of faith. I love that because we do hear the fake it thing a lot. I mean, but that's not gonna sustain you, but Jesus can sustain you, you know, I love that. That's great.

It's Philippians 4:13. You know, I can do all things through Christ. And I think our culture has kind of taken that mindset and they. They apply that verse without the Christ. And I can do all things. I can do whatever. I can do all things through my own effort. I can do all things through my own, you know, ingenuity. And that's not the verse, and it's certainly not how it works. And so when we take Christ out of it, then we're not going to experience this kind of healing and wholeness. And. And so I, I love, I love just pointing people back to Jesus, because that really is the answer. And through him, in him, we can do all things, but we've got to bring it all back to Him.

That's right. It's about surrender. You know, that's kind of what I hear you all talking about, the surrender to the Lord and bringing him your broken pieces. And I know, again, some listening, if you're in a hard spot, they might be like, okay, I've heard that at church. But I mean, really, guys. But truly, I mean, when you really do fully surrender and say, like, I've done all I can do, Lord, and this. I'm really, truly surrendering to you and putting it in your hands. And you know what's in my husband's heart, you know, it's in my wife's heart. You know what's in my heart. And I'm just asking you that you do whatever it is your will here and help me move in my heart to do whatever it is you want me to do. Because I think so many times when people are in conflict, they really do. I mean, they may not say it, but they really blame their spouse. They really do. I mean, we're as human beings, I mean, it's hard for us to blame ourselves, you know, And I think that when we fully surrender, you know, there's not this blame game. It's like, you know, it's really like God will tell us personally what he's calling us to do. And it also, when we fully surrender to Christ, there's this humility that he gives us. Like, we always tell couples, you know, if they're not praying together, pray together. Because, you know, two things happen. Like you, when you pray together, you not only humble yourselves before the Lord and have that surrender, but you humble yourself before your spouse. And it's really hard to stay mad at somebody and pray for them at the same time. And I always, I challenge people to do it. I'm like, try. I've tried, like, through our marriage, we've tried that before.

You've been mad at me before. What?

You know what I'm saying? No, but it's like you don't. I mean, it really is amazing. And it's not like everything's fixed.

No, but there's a right.

It's a great starting point. And it is that point of knowing it's not in my own power like God itself. It's all up to you. Like only you can really fix this.

Yes.

Well, let's take all these amazing, amazing insights and apply it to like one specific situation because then that's like sometimes where the rubber meets the road and we can talk through like this is a real person dealing with a real thing. And so, and so I'm gonna, I'm gonna tee up our question which again, I don't know what it is today.

We don't see it till just we're read it.

And we've got, with Brandon and Susan here, we've got, we're sure to get talk about like being able to phone a lifeline. Like when you're wealth of knowledge, you need some backup. We, we're, I'm excited, excited to tackle whatever this is. So I'm going to read this and then we're going to dive in. Thank you. By the way, for those who sent in questions, which you can do@nakedmarriagepodcast.com and of course you can also send us questions on Instagram at Dave and Ashley Willis. And we'd love to talk to you there on Facebook. And if you're interested in connecting with Brandon and Susan on Instagram, you can find him at PS short for Pastor PS Brandon Thomas and Susan at susantomas1. And they, they post great stuff. I stalk them online regularly and you can find them there. You can also follow Keystone Church for some great biblical teaching as well. So today's question My husband and I have been married for nearly five years and we have two wonderful little boys. My husband and I are both very enthusiastic about our careers and future goals. Recently my husband received a job opportunity where he would get to fulfill his career dreams and make much more money. But it would require him to travel over half the year and be away from our family. We decided it wasn't the right time for us at that point in time. But now a few months later, the opportunity has arisen again and he's more enthusiastic than ever. I want him to have job fulfillment and be happy, but I also don't want to uproot our family. My husband wants me to quit my job and be a stay at home mom so we can travel with him and but I just don't have that desire at all. I'm finishing up graduate school. I'm on a wonderful career path myself. How can we talk through this and be able to see eye to eye? I don't want to be selfish and not support his career. But I also want to do what's best for our family as a whole. Great, Great question. I think in different levels, every couple wrestles with these sorts of dynamics where you have to find a way to find unity and compromise, where the whole family can win. Because in marriage, you're on the same team, which means you're either going to win together or lose together. If it turns into one of us is going to win by getting our way and the other one's not, you've both lost. And so in a situation like this, where no matter what decision is made, it can feel like someone is losing.

Right.

How. How do we navigate. How do we navigate this? And so both for the couple listening to this and for every couple out there who's wrestling through a big life decision where you and your spouse aren't right now, totally on the same page, what is the process to get to a place of unity to make a decision?

Yeah, okay. Yes, this is big. This is a huge life decision for this family. And it's so true, Dave, that this represents whatever big decision you find that you and your spouse are disagreeing about. And when it comes to conflict resolution, this would run in the lane of disagreement. And so caution, because an offense is right around the corner as you guys talk about this big decision. So I think the first place we have to go is with something this big. I need someone bigger speaking into my situation, so God, give me some rails to run on as we navigate this. So it starts with, I believe, getting wise counsel. Have some people around you. Maybe that is a trusted biblical counselor, a licensed biblical counselor. Maybe that is a pastor in your church, someone that, you know is pursuing Jesus that you could bring into the room, a safe person to help you guys talk through those things. That would be one, you know, suggestion, because God says, hey, we make plans. Without wise counsel, it's. It's not going to typically go well. Right. And then as you guys discuss this in a respectful way with one another, laying out your options and. And having, you know, those people that you trust speak into the situation, this is hard. But once it has been exhausted in conversation, the details have been laid out, God does have a structure for marriage. He has a structure of leadership that he has given as a gift, and that is that the husband is that leader of the home appointed by God, and that a wife. One of our roles that God has given to us is to follow our leader. And so if he's not leading us into sin, if he's not leading us to go rob a bank or to do something that is clearly against Scripture, then once we've exhausted that wise counsel and that discussion time and, and we've. We've completed that, it's that step of faith, and that is hard. As a wife and as a wife that, you know, I have strong dreams and desires as well, that God has given that to me first requires, okay, Lord, do I believe you are good? Do I believe you're a good God? That you would give this as part of my role? If I believe that, then I can trust that if I follow you, the outcome will be good. Even if at times it may be painful, I may be sacrificing, surrendering something in order to follow you first before I ever follow him. And so that's a tough answer, but I do believe it is one of the starting points to say, am I even willing to follow God and follow my husband as my leader? I think wrestling with that is probably going to be one of the biggest challenges.

I think as a man, you also have to start with the starting point of man. We are team Thomas. We are a team. We are one. And the Bible says to the men, live in an understanding way, you know, and so that, that tiebreaker moment, you know, that you just referred to is not that. It's not the absence of leadership on the wife. That's the biggest mistake people make when they, when they understand this principle. We are both leadership. There is a point where there is a decision to be made. There's got to be a decision to be made. And. And at that point, I would say that that man has exhausted understanding as well, like he understands and he has prayed and sought. I would, I would bring men around me who know me too, and they'd say, dude, you are, you are ramming this through. She is not made for you to be away. You know, like, you married a girl who is the best girl for you, and she. She needs you near. You know, there are other women, we know them who their husbands travel. And they're made for that. Yeah, they are made for that. They're mama bear ready to go. Made for that. Different people are different ways. And same thing with. With the men. You know who I am. You know, I'm a different person. And so we complement one another.

Yes. And going back to the basics, that again, if you are making a decision and not filled with the Holy Spirit of God, that you are not pursuing him, then it is a great chance that you may make a decision that ends up causing pain.

Mutual submission to is another word that biblical Word mutually submit to one another. Submit one to another is you don't take, you don't demand, you don't lay it down. You don't, you know, you don't pound the table. That is, that is opposite of what Jesus would model for us to serve is the greatest thing Jesus laid down his life. We are called to love you as Christ loved the church. And so this would be one where you're both willing to sacrifice back to that first.

Sure.

So, so, so true.

Absolutely. And I would just add too, to not necessarily make a decision out of fear on either end. Fear of this opportunity, never like never receiving this opportunity again or fear of, of what may happen if you don't take it and if you know you're not going to have that money or be resentful of each other or you know, will he resent me because I'm the one who necessarily like he might view me as holding him back or whatever. I just think there's gotta be so many conversations with wise counsel. Just like they talked about so much prayer, so much prayer going into this. Because what would be ideal would be if God calls you both to the same conclusion. You know, there are times where, just like Susan and Brandon were saying, where like you're just, you're not coming to a conclusion together. And so ultimately there's that, that, that major decision making and you're just trusting that God is leading you in the right direction even though you necessary, you haven't necessari come to the same conclusion. But what would be ideal is if you both are praying and you're both pursuing God and you're saying, God, I'm laying down all my own opinions here. I've made them known because you want to make them known. And I've listened to my spouse and, and we've had, you know, good healthy conversations. Not point finger pointing or yelling or anything like that. But we're not afraid, we're trusting you. Please Lord, lead us to the same decision. And, and that, that would be ideal. So that is my prayer for you all. But I do wanna say this, please consider this. Cause we've had these kind of decisions off and on throughout our 20 year marriage. You can't get back that time with your kids. And I just wanna make that clear. And I know I'm a mom, mom always kind of goes there. But I will say, you know, definitely think about that time with your children. I'm not saying that God won't call you to travel because of that. I'm not saying that at all. It doesn't necessarily make you any less of a dad. You know, you can still be a good dad and have a job that travels, but you're gonna be missing out on a lot. And so that's definitely something to consider. You also can't get back that time with your wife. So I just think that we need to take all these things, you know, into consideration. And I'm not saying that to guilt anybody because we travel for work. Like we're away from our kids right now to work. So I understand. You know, sometimes jobs require travel, but it is something not to take lightly because we do want to make sure that whenever we're having any kind of decision like this, it's not only a marital decision, but it's also a family decision. And I don't know how old your kids are. You said little. So they may not be able to have an opinion. But if they're old enough to have an opinion, you don't necessarily pose the question to them as if they're the ones making the decision. But I do think that it is something to ask your kids just their opinion on it, just so you can hear their hearts and then you can actually talk as a family in preparing wherever this decision may go. And so when you do ultimately make that decision, everybody kind of has the little more understanding together.

And one final thing I'll just add is Bible says do everything with love. And the challenge specifically, even for the, for the husband. Here we're called to love our wives as Christ loved the church and he loves us with great understanding, great patience and great self sacrifice. He laid down his life for us. If we're loving our wives in that kind of way. Does your wife know that you love her more than your career? Does she know that you love her more than your preferences, your desires, all those other things? Make sure that she knows those things. It doesn't mean that maybe this career path is the best thing for your family, but just make sure that in this decision process, it's not just about what do I want personally for my own. What I feel like will be self fulfillment or professional fulfillment, but what is going to make my wife, my family, know they're most loved by me. And being a provider is part of that. We're, you know, we need to work hard and be a provider, but that the best thing we can provide our families is ourselves. And if something is going to take us away to the point where we can't be there to, you know, to show them the love that they need, from us, then maybe no job is worth that. And so just factor all those things and then apply all this other great wisdom that you've heard. Maybe just rewind. People don't rewind anymore. Back in my day, we rewound stuff, but skip back and listen to what was just shared, that whole process about seeking counsel. And I think all those things can help.

And I want to say this real quick, too. I know this is a longer explanation, but there's a lot of moving parts to this one. Try to find somebody who's been there. Maybe they're 10 years ahead of you and this was their job. I can't tell you how much we have benefited from mentors who have been through similar situations. They bring so much perspective. Make sure that these are people of faith who share your same. Your faith, your principles, who maybe have a family dynamic like you would want to have and really talk through some of these scenarios, because I guarantee you there's things they did right that they'd want to repeat. But there's also things that were. Maybe they consider mistakes where they would want to help you not make the same mistake. And so there's just such wisdom in those mentors out there, and they're usually very eager to help. So I just want to add that.

So good, man. A lot of just wisdom from this episode. Brandon and Susan, you guys are the real deal. Thank you. Thank you for making times to share. You guys just have such a heart to. To. To give and to serve. And we see that in your work and your ministry and your counseling and even the time you shared with us today. You guys are a gift. And we just. We're just thankful to call you friends.

Thank you. Grateful for you. So grateful for you and exo. Thank you.

Yeah.

And thank you guys for watching and listening. We'll see you next time.

Bye, Gu.