Duty Sex

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Hello and welcome back to the Naked Marriage podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast, we address the truth about sex, intimacy, and lifelong love. And, you guys, we have a really great episode for you. It's. It's a little bit heavy and nuanced because there's a lot of different layers that we're gonna kind of unpack here. But we encourage you to listen all the way to the end. We have a great question at the end that I think a lot of you get can relate to, and we're really excited to talk about duty sex today. So, yeah, if you're not sure what that is, that's what we're talking about.

Stay tuned in. It's one of the many themes related to sex. We cover in the new book the Counterfeit Climax. And if you haven't ordered your copy, ebook, paperback, audiobook, which we got to read, which was so much fun.

I know it was fun.

Then get your copy of the Counterfeit Climax. We think it could really spark some important conversations about sex in your marriage, as we hope today's podcast episode will do. So. So let's dive in.

Well, this episode is definitely a heavier episode, but so needed. And we're going to be talking about duty sex. You know, we hear from so many of you, this is both men and women who feel, you know, both sides of this because. And it's so layered. And I know that this, you know, duty sex from both kind of spouses on either side of it, whether the one who feels like they're always having sex out of duty or the one who feels like they're begging for sex, that there. There are so many layers to this and hurt feelings and mixed feelings. And so when we talk about this, I just want to recognize that right out of the gate that we know many of you are listening to this from various situations, and. And that this is something that, for a lot of you, it's your reality. And so I want to first define what exactly duty sex is. Okay. And you can kind of get it from my. My first comments there. But just in case I want to cl. So duty sex is a term that is used often for, you know, sex and marriage, where one spouse, you know, feels like that they will have sex with their spouse simply because it is their. Their duty, maybe as defined in the Bible, to kind of keep the marriage going, but they really remove their feelings from it. They don't really look forward to it. Begrudging, just out of duty. Right.

I'm just going to be a warm body for you.

Yeah. So you don't hate me and you're not grouchy. Let's just do it and then move on. And, and, and, you know, this. This has become quite a hot topic among a wide variety of authors. I won't even go into the whole big description, but if you kind of look up duty sex, you're gonna find a lot of things, arguments about it, a lot of heated responses. Because again, this is a very, very deep wound for many. And. And it. It has just. It's caused a lot of wreckage in marriages. And I think people. There are many people right now listening that you've existed in this kind of dynamic for most of your marriage.

Right.

And you maybe didn't know that you could have it differently. Like, maybe you just thought, I'm just not a sexual. I'm just gonna give duty sex, and that's that. But the reason we're talking about this today is both partners are missing out when duty sex is the go to.

That's right. Because if you only see it as a duty, then you're not gonna see it as a gift. And God created it to be a gift for both spouses, for both the man and the woman. It's not a gift for one spouse and a duty for the other. It is a gift to both spouses, and in some ways a duty for both spouses to prioritize it. But when I say duty, I don't mean, like, just this begrudging. I'm gonna go along and grip my teeth and just kind of get through this. But a duty, like all parts of marriage and all responsibilities of marriage are really a sa. Duty to say, it's my duty to care for my spouse. It's my duty to talk to my spouse. It's my duty to provide for my spouse. It's my duty to keep my vows. It's my duty to keep my word. It's my duty to prioritize my time in a way that I'm there with them. And so, like all those things, the sexual aspect of our relationship should be something that is a priority for me, because it's something that I need, is something my spouse needs. It's something that God says should be a priority within our marriage. And when we're in those situations where one spouse has a consistently higher drive, and we've had a whole episodes on that, you can look up the episode called Lopsided Sex Drives. Yes. Where we've. That might just be a YouTube video we did. But if you search Lopsided Sex Drives, Dave and Ashley Willis will find it. Yeah, we've had these conversations, but the unhealthy dynamic we're trying to prevent and we want to talk about is that dynamic the kind of stereotypical duty sex dynamic where one spouse just needs it more. The other spouse just feels like, well, I don't want it, but I also don't want to hear griping about it. And so I'm just going to lifelessly go along with this. I'm going to just kind of let my soul detach from my body and just be lifeless, but let. Let my spouse kind of have their way. And then. And then we're going to kind of go about our business and they'll feel better and. And I. I won't. I'll kind of like, probably silently present the whole arrangement. But over time, if that's what you're. If that's what your sex life looks like, it's just. It's going to put such a disconnect between you and your spouse. Both of you are really missing out.

Right.

Both of you. And so we want to just talk about, you know, some of the. Some of those awkward realities of the fact that there are situations where one spouse has a much higher drive. And we can talk some about that, but we want to talk about not settling because really, duty sex is really a form of settling for both spouses. Not settling for that, but really getting to a place where there's real intimacy and real connection and real mutual pleasure.

Absolutely. And I think too, sometimes we go to duty sex. I know for women in particular, because maybe your spouse is ready to go right now, and your husband's like, I need it right now, and your mind isn't there. And so you're like, okay, we'll just do it. But the thing about it, and I get it, I mean, I think there's going to be some times where one of you is like, totally in the moment and the other, you know, you are. Instead of using the word duty, I know this might be just be semantics, but you're trying to serve your spouse in that way.

And I'm not saying there's never a place for a quickie, right?

I mean you can do a quickie. Maybe both of you don't climax, that's okay. But we're meaning duty sex is like you're, this is where it's very one sided. One spouse is always receiving, always achieves climax, always is the one maybe pursuing that spouse and the other is constantly just doing it out of duty. That's what we're talking about in this dynamic. And I think what happens with this is you're disengaging from the emotional component of sex and even the spiritual component of sexual. You're only engaging in the physical component. And like Dave said, really resent. It's just a, it is like fertile soil for resentment to grow. It really is. And I mean I've had friends and even people we work with over the years where they will literally use the language of well, I'm just doing my duty for my husband. And on the surface it sounds like, wow, you're really being like a good spouse, you know? Cause I mean, why wouldn't you do your duty for your spouse? But what I found is when a spouse says that, when, and I'm talking about wife specifically here, but this could be husbands too. And we've heard both sides of this. When, when a wife in particular says this, usually she feels extremely unloved. She doesn't feel like her emotional needs are being met at all. And so she's checked out emotionally. And usually it's in a home where there hasn't been a conversation about sex. Also there's not a lot of communication going on. Like there's not other conversations going on where they're really sharing their hearts with each other. And so this woman has just come to the point where she's like, well, I want to stay married. Life is just crazy busy right now. I don't have time to even process my emotions when it comes to sex. And if I was going to try to enjoy it and get in the mood, who knows how long that would take. And so she's resigned herself to duty sex. And, and on the husband's side of it, he's, he's maybe like there's some different dynamics, he might be okay with it, but it's probably not happening even as much as he would like. And so they both are kind of silently resenting each other. And there can even be a dynamic. I was actually just introduced to recently by one of our listeners. And it can be the dynamic which Dr. Doug Weiss, I believe I'm pronouncing that right. Refers to this dynamic as intimacy anorexia. And I'd never heard that term, but I thought, man, that captures it where there is just a lack of intimacy. And if there is any, it's like, you know, it's bare. Like, it might be physical. Like, maybe sex happens here and there.

You can have sex without intimacy.

Right.

Have an orgasm without intimacy.

Absolutely.

But intimacy, anorexia. That's right. Because that can speak to both an infrequency of actual sex, but more likely an infrequency of real connection. Right. Real, deep, intimate connection.

Exactly. And so I think that. And Dr. Doug Weiss, he has a lot of resources about this one, I believe is called Married and Alone. If you feel that, if you feel like, man, that's it. We have intimacy anorexia. And maybe both of you are feeling this, but you really are pointing the finger at each other. Maybe you've done that. Like, literally, you've pointed and been like, this is all your fault. I'm just doing my duty. Or. Or you're barely given. You know, we just have it on the calendar. That's all. But you disengage, you know, you've literally pointed the finger at each other or in your heart. You're pointing the finger and you just feel such a disconnection. We want to talk to you today because we want you to know that it doesn't have to be this way. But I will say that you didn't get here overnight. This has been something that's been happening over and over again. And so it's become a habit. And so when you want to break this habit, it's going to take time.

Yeah.

And it really is. As far as the emotional disengagement and sex being just done out of duty, it's going to take, you know, a re. Engagement, a re. Engaging of the emotions, because again, you just checked out and kind of resigned yourself to this. I don't know, it's almost like. What do you call it? An exchange. Like, okay, I'll give you this if you just leave me alone. Like sex twice a week, and then we're done. And just leave me alone.

Yeah. It's like this unspoken, just arrangement. It's like, I know this is like the minimum requirement if I can just meet this need. If you have. If you get your two orgasms in or whatever, a week, and I'll let you do that. And then we're not gonna talk about it.

We're not gonna work on don't bother me, don't hound me. Yeah, And I do. I mean, I think. And I get how we get here. I'm not trying to make anybody feel bad. I get how you can get here, because life is crazy. Someone's sexual need could be higher than the others. And it. And it's just. I can see where you get here, but I just want to level with you on, say this isn't healthy. And it does. It breeds resentment. And also, it's just cutting you both off from a flourishing sex life that you could have. And so the first step to stopping this whole duty Sex dynamic is really recognizing that it's not the best. It's not the best thing for your marriage. And it's gonna take having some awkward conversations. And again, you guys know we kind of try to specialize in awkward here on the Naked Marriage podcast. And so it's gonna take one of you speaking up first. And if you're the one who thinks that your spouse is maybe only having sex out of duty and not really engaging, never climaxing, never really enjoying it, and just kind of looks a little blank faced and not even like, engaged in the process, I would encourage you to go to them and say, listen, I listen to this podcast today called Duty Sex. And it made me think that, like, maybe that's what's going on with us. And it breaks my heart and makes me sad to think that you would only have sex with me out of duty. Because I want our marriage to be so much more than that. We don't just stay married out of duty. Yes, we made vows to each other. Yes, we have things that we want to fulfill and ways we serve each other, but it can be so much more than that. It's not just like, you know, punching your time card. I mean, this is, this is our.

Our.

Our love that God has given us. And I just don't want you to feel that way. What can I do to make you want to engage in sex more? Is there a certain position we're not doing? Or is there a certain time of day that we don't tend to have sex where you would have more energy? And I could really, you know, romance you and engage with you more. Am I not talking to you enough? And I'm not saying this is all you're like, please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying it's all on you and blaming you because it may not have anything to do. It may just be that your spouse has decided to do this and you didn't even know you know. But if you suspect this when you come to them and you. And you do inquire as to why it might be seen as a duty, it's gonna. It's going to help them to open up, and maybe you'll find out something you didn't even know.

Communication is always the best foreplay. And not only foreplay, but it's really the key to intimacy on all levels, including sexual intimacy, is communication and honesty and just being vulnerable, being open, being transparent with one another. And so you gotta be willing to talk about these things. And if you've kind of slipped into that rut, which is easy to do, especially when life gets going and everything else in life just sort of seems like it's scheduled and automated. And there can be. We've talked about. There can be benefits of scheduling sex. Scheduled sex doesn't necessarily at all mean duty sex. It just means that you're putting a place of priority on it enough to put it on the calendar. But if it's more just like, all right, my spouse's dinner bell's ringing and they're hungry, and I have to just kind of meet this appetite, so to speak, then I'm just gonna do it as quickly as I can, and then we're gonna get on with the stuff that really matters. Because if it's just duty sex, what you're both kind of saying is like, this isn't an aspect of our marriage. Our connection in this area isn't an aspect of priority. It's just a carnal need that is for one spouse that needs to be met for one spouse. And again, you're both missing out when that's the dynamic. We talk a lot about these kind of dynamics and others in the book. The Counterfeit Climax. You've heard us talking about the Counterfeit Climax book a lot. And it's because we just think these conversations are so important. And that's why we put so much research and effort into this book and why I think it might be the most important resource we've written. Because this is the area for a lot of couples where they're just stuck.

Right?

It's just easy to get stuck here. And I think that the conversations that the new book could spark could really help you get unstuck. And so this isn't about us giving you the solutions. This is about us giving you a tool for you and your spouse to talk and find the solutions together. Because you're going to have to be the ones to figure out what does this solution look like in our marriage? You know, we don't want to just give you some impersonal template and just say, you know, do this in three steps and then it's fixed. But really to give you kind of some conversation templates where you guys can talk about your unique situation and the unique dynamics in your relationship and then figure out, what would a thriving sex life look like for us based on the principles God's given us in scripture, based on our own needs and desires and backgrounds and preferences and baggage and all of those things. What does it look like for us to win in this area and then to know that God wants you to win and to start working toward that together?

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You know, I think where, where duty sex kind of becomes common is with a couple where one spouse does like, just has a lower sex drive that or a less need for frequency and the other has a higher need for frequency. And so they've kind of resigned themselves to this duty sex dynamic. And, and it seems they both told each other they're good with it. They've told each other, they've told, you know, they, they've kind of, they've acted. They're like, well, I guess it can't be better than this. So we're okay with this. But what you see over time is it really does. It grows resentment because the one who's performing the duty sex feels used and the one who's receiving the duty sex almost feels rejected because you might be fulfilling that physical sexual need, but emotionally you've checked out. And so there is a little bit of that rejection because emotionally you kind of are rejecting them. You're like I don't even wanna muster up the emotions needed to really engage in this. You know, I mean, just to be honest.

Yep.

And so I talked about what to do if you suspect your spouse is. Is just having sex with you out of duty. But what about the person who constantly feels like they just need to do duty sex? What do you say? I would say this if that's your. That's kind of the arrangement you guys have right now. If you. You need to go to your spouse and say, listen, I listen to this podcast today, and I think we've fallen into what. What they refer to as a duty sex dynamic. I've kind of cut myself off from you emotionally, and I'm really sorry, but I feel like there's a disconnect between us and I'd really like to. To kind of re. Engage with one another. I want to engage with you emotionally and talk about how we can do that, because I feel like I'm going to have those feelings to have sex and want to engage fully with you where we can both enjoy it so much more if we could just communicate more. Because I just. I feel like we're just kind of going through life just through the motions, and I want it to be about so much more than that. I really want to be partners. I really want to flourish. And so let's talk about how that can happen. I think when you come to it from that standpoint, and again, use those I statements about how you are feeling and not pointing fingers, that's going to be a good starting place to reengage.

That's it right there. That's the conversation we want you guys to have if you found yourself in this dynamic. And again, we're not trying to shame you or guilt you. I think any marriage can fall into this in different times. But monitor and adjust if you found yourself in that, to start having these conversations and say, I want more for us, and maybe apologize for your own part in it. You know, whether. If you've been the one that's kind of, you know, sort of demanded duty sex because, you know, the need for sexual frequency for you was more important than the need for real connection, then, you know, apologize for that. For anything you've done to make your spouse feel like you value. You value them as a body more than as a soul. If you're the spouse that's just kind of given the duty sex, but you ha. You've kind of pulled away emotionally and not. Not work to engage in having sexual connection beyond that, then, you know, maybe apologize for that, say, listen, I've tried to give you what I thought you wanted, but really, it's taken a toll on both of us, I feel like. And I've been less connected. I've fostered some resentments, and I want to meet your needs. But more importantly than that, I want both of our needs to be met and for us to thrive together as a couple. And I apologize for whatever part I've played in letting us settle for something less than that. And so let's talk together about what it would look like for us to. To work towards something healthier and with a lot of grace. Let's get there together. And I think that's always a good place to start.

Absolutely. All right, now for one of our favorite parts of the podcast, and that is the Q and A. And so today, this is what the question says. It says, what advice would you give to a newly married couple who has been married, divorced, previously in regards to the following situation when one party tends to sink into their depression and becomes unreachable, the other party will throw out the D word, divorce, because they are upset and they can't reach their spouse. That, oh, that's a tough situation. I can feel it. I can feel kind of the. Just the conflicting feelings they feel in this and wanting, wanting, you know, to get through to their spouse, but also feeling just defeated, you know, both spouses clearly in that kind of situation.

Yeah, I think it takes a lot of grace from both. The simple things you can do to start with are just to decide together. Not in moments of argument, but in moments of just kind of clarity when you're sitting, having breakfast together to talk about, you know, what are the boundary lines in our marriage? Like in any sports game, the only reason that the sports game makes sense is because the boundary lines are clear. And if you don't know where the boundary lines are and you don't know what's out of bounds, there's going to be complete chaos. In any marriage where you don't have boundary lines, there's going to be complete chaos. One of the important boundary lines in a marriage is the word divorce is out of bounds. Like, I am stepping way out of bounds. I am sabotaging the sacred commitment that we've made to each other by just speaking that word as a possibility, because the vow we made to one another means to remove that word from our vocabulary. So I think that that's a good place to start. And when you've been married, divorced, previously, I think maybe you already see that as a Possible, like escape strategy. But if you want this marriage to do what your other marriage didn't, which you want this marriage to last, then you have to do some things that maybe you did wrong in the first marriage. If you threw around the word divorce, the first marriage and it ended in divorce, then saying, well, I don't want to speak that into existence in this marriage. So we're going to agree that that's out of bounds. That's first and foremost, I think for all couples, whether you've been divorced or not. I think divorce is a word that we decided early on was just not in our vocabulary. We weren't even going to consider it and it was going to be way out of bounds to ever speak it. And I encourage you to do the same for the spouse that tends to sink into the depression and become unreachable. I think when that spouse is in a level of clear headedness and they're not feeling that deep depression to talk openly about. Let's decide together now what to do when you find yourself sinking into that place. You know, what's inbounds, what's out of bounds, how can we best help each other and how can we make sure you're getting the help you need for that? Because you don't have to live that way. I want to make sure that your mental health is a priority, but at the same time I want to make sure that we're safeguarding our marriage even while you're working through it. So that in those moments of depression that, that we're not, we're not sabotaging our own marriage. And so.

Right, communicate, communication is key. And I would say too definitely be praying about this because it sounds like one, you know, one spouse gets depressed when things get hard in the marriage because you've had some trauma there. You know, I don't know how these marriages, the previous marriages ended, but it sounds like that's a trigger point. There's trauma. So like let's say one day, you know, you thought things were good in the marriage, but your spouse is disappointed with you about something. It sounds like this spouse that tends to go to depression has not still dealt with the trauma of their previous marriage. And maybe, you know, every time there was a problem, their spouse would retreat from them and they felt that loneliness. And so all of a sudden it's triggered this loneliness and it makes that spouse tend to fall away and, and kind of get insular and fall into depression. And so that's why we need to go to counseling and work through these Things, because going through a divorce, my goodness. I mean, that. That's a major trauma. And so you can't just automatically, even if you're remarried, think like, oh, my goodness, like, I'm over this. I have a new spouse. It's over. I think there's still some things that need to. We need to work through because we do have triggers on the other side. The person who, when their spouse becomes depressed, they throw out divorce. You guys, that is so demoralizing to a depressed person, that is only going to make them sink further, further into their depression and become even more unreachable. But I do know, to the spouse's credit, they feel up in arms. They're like, well, gosh, how can we even be married if you're not going to talk to me? Like, I get that frustration. But using any kind of threat, even if you don't say the divorce word, but I'm leaving or, you know, you always do this. You're just always so sad and don't talk to me. That just shuts down communication. The best thing you can do to a person when they start closing in is to say, listen, I'm not going anywhere. I'm here. I'm here. We've been through. We've been through divorce. Let's take that word out. I'm here. I'm not leaving you. I'm so sorry that there's something I did or someone else did or a situation that triggered you. But I want to know how I can help you. Let's. Let's get help. Because that is going to open up communication. And this is coming from a person who's walked through years of depression. And I can tell you with authority that it will. Do not threaten the D word. Do not walk away. I know you're frustrated. Dave knows that frustration. He knows what it's like to try to get through to a spouse who's just depressed and unreachable. You know that pain.

Yeah.

And it is a huge pain.

And it's. It's. It's discouraging, it's frustrating. But at the same time, you both, in those moments of when the other one's weak, just say, it's a privilege for me to be the strong one right now. Because as Ashley said, a strong marriage usually has not two strong people at the same time, but a husband and wife who take turns being strong in the moments the other's weak.

Right.

And you're going to have a lot of times to be strong for each other. Some days you're going to be the strong one. Some days your spouse is. But on the days when it's your turn, so to speak, count it as a privilege to be able to serve them in that way and to just say, like Ashley said, I'm here for you. I'm not going anywhere. I don't have the answers, the words to fix this, but I want you to know that I'm here with you in it and we're going to face this together.

Even just you guys, sometimes it's not even the words you say. It's just being present and putting your hand on their shoulder and maybe even saying a prayer, whether audibly or out loud or quietly. You know, you could even say it to yourself because this, there are wounds here, clearly. And I can, I mean, I don't know all the different details of this situation, but I do know that there's some wounds here from both sides. And so I would encourage counseling for both of you individually and together. Talk to your, your pastor, go find a local biblical counselor in your area to talk to. But also, when it comes to your marriage, I'd love for you to reach out to our marriage mediators here at ExoMarriage. And you can do that by going to ExoMarriage.com help. They're amazing. They might give you some new thoughts like that you weren't even thinking on how you can help each other get through this situation. And they are. They're amazing in helping you both. You know, they deal with a lot of couples who are remarried and dealing with some of the different, unique struggles that blended families and remarried couples go through. And so I just really encourage you to reach out to them because I think they could be a great resource for you.

You. Thanks so much for that question. And thanks to all of you for tuning in. Hope this episode's been an encouragement to you. God bless. We'll see you next time.