How to Have a "Fierce Marriage"

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Hello, and welcome back to the Naked Marriage podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast, we undress the truth about sex, intimacy, and lifelong love. And we have some very special guests today. I'm so excited about these guests.

Yes, Ryan and Selina Frederick. They are amazing. They are the founders of Fierce Marriage, which is a podcast, a book, and just a powerful marriage ministry. Love these guys. And they've got so much great wisdom, and they're just so easy to talk to. And we're gonna talk about healthy rhythms and habits in your marriage and in your home. Cause really, rhythms and habits are what life is made of.

It is.

And when you're intentional about those things, it really matters. One quick logistical note before we dive in, and that is we're kind of in a series where we've just done a few interviews. And if you're watching these interviews on YouTube, you'll notice that for most of the time, we're not looking right at the camera. It's not that we're ignoring you. It's that the guys we're talking to are over here on this camera. And so you think, why are and Ashley looking away? Do they not know that we're over here? Now, if you're just listening to this on itunes or Spotify, then you're like, what are they talking about? I didn't even know we could watch this. Well, guess what?

You can.

You can. You can. You can go over to YouTube and you can not only listen, but you can watch. And Ashley's going to be much more attractive than you were thinking, and I'm going to be much less attractive than you were thinking, and that's all right. But we would love for you to watch or listen. But enough about all that. I can't wait to dive into today's. Interview. Ryan and Selena are amazing. This is going to be a great interview. Whatever's season of life and marriage, you're in, so let's dive in. Well, as I said in the intro, it is a privilege and a pleasure to have our friends Ryan and Selina Frederick on the program today. Love their ministry, Fierce Marriage. If you're not listening, watching, reading what they're putting out, you're missing out because they're awesome.

They are awesome. We've gotten to spend some time with them. A lot of you may already be familiar with them. They've spoken at the exomarriage conferences before, and they're just amazing. Welcome, you guys, to the podcast.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah, thanks for having us, man.

This is exciting to be here.

It's a real treat. We love hanging out with the Willis, so this is awesome. Thank you. Thank you.

Absolutely. Well, just tell us a little bit. I want to hear about the girls. I want to hear about life and all of it, but let's start, like, for people that aren't familiar with your ministry yet, rewind the clock and tell us a little bit about your origin story. How you two guys fell in love and got married 18 years ago. And then how God put the vision for Fierce Marriage on your heart and how you launched the marriage ministry.

Yeah, I don't know. That's a long story. We'll make it short, though. So we met.

That probably is a lot.

It's okay.

I saw Selina for the first time. I was visiting the school. She was going to be 14, 15. I was 14 or 15. And she was in the gym playing some sort of game. And my heart just. I don't know what it was. It leapt out of my chest or it dropped through the soles of my shoes. I don't know. But I thought this girl was amazing. And lo and behold, I wouldn't even talk to her for a year and a half. And then I remember, I can go there right now, to the spot where we had our first conversation outside of the front doors of this school. I was thinking about that the other day. I was like, I married that girl. I have three daughters with that girl. And this is the girl I was just trying to get to know. So we were high school sweethearts. We dated for two years. High school, two years in college, got married fairly young. I was 20, you were 21. I won't let you forget that. And then we finished college. And then, long story short, we ended up going to Switzerland. I got really sick, came back. We Tell all that story and stuff we write. I'm really glossing over a lot here, but I hope that's okay. And then we were actually in. I'm kind of an entrepreneurial guy. So we were going to start a business in California. We were from Washington state. We moved to California and that was not going so well. It was in the middle of that recession that happened with the real estate and all that back then. And I was kind of just sitting at my computer. I was doing some web stuff that I did some web development for a number of years. And I was sitting there, just kind of like had all these great clients, had all this like, work that was kind of pouring in. It was going okay, but I was just so discontent with that. And I just said, God, what is. Like, what is this? I feel like I'm just on a hamster wheel. And he goes, what's in your hand that you can use for my glory? And I thought, well, we've always wanted to have our relationship be kind of after your design. And we wanted to be kind of. We wanted to help people in their relationships. He said, why don't you do that? And so I.

There it is.

I had done web development. So I kind of built out this little. This plan and I took it to the CEO, which is Selena, and said, hey, will you invest with me in this idea? And she was on board. And that was about eight years ago. Eight years ago now. Yeah. And so we started this thing, Fierce Marriage. Why don't you talk about why the name? Because Selena was the author of the name there.

Oh, yeah. We were like, what should we call it? What should we call it? And I was like, I don't know. It seems like you need something fierce to like stay married. Right? Like, so it's a fierce tenacity that never gives up and never gives in and is fueled, if you want to go that way, by the gospel and by Jesus. So, yeah, it just kind of stuck. And we wanted to kind of share with people alongside and co travel with them and not. I mean, we had been married 10 years when we started Fierce Marriage. But we don't know everything still and we didn't know anything then. But what we do know, we kind of try to share openly and honestly. And, um, yeah, hopefully that is a blessing to people and.

And always and always pointing kind of drawing those lines between the gospel, the hope, the eternal hope of the gospel, and the. The current help that it provides for our lives if we're just willing to make those connections. And that's kind of just become our. Honestly, like our life's work. That's all. That's all we do now.

So.

And we love doing it, so. Yeah, it's been fun.

You guys are great at it, by the way.

I mean, absolutely.

I love. I just personally love the authenticity of your faith, the way you love Jesus, the way you love each other, and how you're the same people, whether you're on a stage speaking to thousands or on a podcast speaking to tens or hundreds of thousands, or just sitting across a booth at a restaurant and just hanging out. And that authenticity really shines through. And I love that about you guys. Oh, man. Thank you.

Absolutely.

Thank you so much.

I love it. And I know you guys are. Oh, no, it's so true. I love your authenticity. And we also. I love that you. I know you have fierce marriage, but if I'm correct, you also have a thing called fierce parenting because you are parents to three little girls. And so tell us a little bit about that and tell us about your girls, too. We love that.

Yeah.

So fierce parenting, once again, the same approach. We don't know everything. We're still taking this crash course. So it's more of a collaborative effort, I think.

Yeah.

Yeah. It just kind of. It was a natural progression. I'm so in awe of God's design for the household. I'm so in awe for his design for marriage. When I look at study. His design for marriage. And now as we. Our oldest is about to turn seven here, and I'm just in awe of how God has wired these little human beings, and he's basically given us an opportunity now to disciple them. And there's complexity there, but there's also such a beautiful simplicity to that. And so, yes, we did just launch fierce parenting earlier this year, and we. That's been a space that we've kind of dip our water and parents, like, we have all girls. So I can't possibly speak to your situation where you have all boys. And so we are desperately relying on folks and other perspectives, other people's kind of their experience to help really fill out the various kind of nuances and textures that are to be had in the area of parenting. And so our goal in it is to really just focus on the big kind of stones, if you will. I think reminding parent like moms and dads that kids are a blessing. They're not just a commodity or lifestyle choice. They are a blessing from God that parenting, all of parenting, is not just getting kids from point A to point B and just keeping Them alive. All of parenting is discipleship. Every opportunity is discipleship. And so we try to focus. And we have one more other core thing I'm not remembering right now, but those are. We focus on those big core things and then entrust parents to really fill out the, you know, put the meat on the bones, if you will, like to discern how to then raise their kids. It's been a lot of fun.

Yeah, I love that, and I love the intentionality of that, because, you know, it is parenting and marriage. I mean, they go hand in hand and they affect the other. You know, when your marriage is good, you can be better parents. But also when parenting's really hard and you're having trouble with your kids, it can really affect your marriage. And so, you know, it's like attacking all these things at once and making sure that we're being intentional about it.

Yeah. And that's actually the third piece was the. He just reminded me, family is God's name. There's so much beauty in that notion that it all is kind of this. You're a team. You're a team, and you're all there together. And it's not just an arbitrary social construct. It is something that's hardwired into the fabric of the cosmos, if you will. This is God's idea for flourishing. So we just love that, and we're in awe of everything God's doing.

I feel like our culture has settled for something so much less than that, and we either settle for something so much less than that, or we overcomplicate what it has to look like. And so, again, coming back to just that authenticity that you guys model, and then the intentionality that I think the way Ashley described it, there is so much at the core of everything that you guys teach. It's just being intentional about every moment of your day, looking for that moment as an opportunity to connect as husband and wife, to connect closer to God, to connect into a discipleship moment with your kids. And it challenges me as a dad and as a husband who I have good intentions most of the time, but I feel like I waste a lot of time. You know, I'll get to the end of a day, and I'll just think, man, like, I feel like I didn't have meaningful interactions today the way I wanted to with my kids, because I was, like you said, Ryan, just running them from point A to point B, or just getting caught up in the kind of the hamster wheel of life sometimes. And so, you know, what is some of your advice for you know, right now, kind of in the COVID era, I guess, you know, we've all kind of slowed down in different ways, a little more. But now and then, as life gets back to whatever normal is going to be after now, to just be more intentional about those everyday moments, growing in your faith, growing in your marriage, growing in your parenting, which is really kind of the core of a lot of what you guys teach about and I think something all of us could benefit from. So what does it look like to just be more intentional with our everyday lives like that?

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Hey, welcome into Walgreens.

Hi there. Hey.

All right, hon. I'll grab the gift wrap cards and, oh, those stuffed animals the girls want.

Great. And I'll grab the string lights and stick. So how about I grab some cough drops?

This is not just a quick trip to Walgreens.

I'm fine, honey.

Well, just in case, you know what they say, tis the season.

This is help staying healthy through the holidays.

Walgreens.

Good question. Do you have specific thoughts?

Yeah, I mean, I think for us, for me personally, it's been focusing on habits and rhythms throughout our week and throughout our days, building those habits, knowing that, you know, some of the nitty gritty of what we do is feeding into, you know, the bigger picture of who they are becoming. So, you know, just things like reading our Bibles together, talking about that, it's just like, you know, training a child to get dressed in the morning, right? There's these habits that you are constantly. And so for us, I think when we try to focus on the spiritual habits and the culture of our home, we're really trying to instill the ideal of like family worship and gathering around God's word and what that looks and sometimes that sounds really big and overwhelming to someone listening who may not do it, but it really is not. It's, you know, five, ten minutes of, you know, reading the Bible, doing a song and prayer. And it's amazing the conversations that come from that, especially from a 4 year old and a 6 year old. Almost 7 year old and the kids, they respond well and they love that engagement. And so again for us, I think it's just been habit building and finding those moments and seeing them more consistently and saying, okay, there's an opportunity when I, when we drive to piano, we're going to listen to this on something and we're going to talk about it after, you know, or something. Just, I don't know, it's just been finding those in between moments and then building habits out of those.

Yeah.

That are consistent for me.

And I think my epiphany in that has just been this idea that intentionality like you're mentioning, Dave, doesn't have to be complex. That's what doesn't have to be this big production. It just needs to happen. Right. We just need to do the good work and just, we need to just, just put our hand to it. Now what that looks like is going to be as diverse as the listeners of this podcast. Right. It's going to be different in every home. The point is it's got to, it's just got to be, it's just got to be intentional. So like Selena said, we just crack the word like every meal. We're sitting down, the Bible's right there. We just. And the kids start asking for it and it's. We'll read maybe just a section of scripture, not even a whole chapter. And man, I'm blown away.

When the habits change as the kids grow, they start taking on that role of reading the Bible or they start leading you. We just give them opportunities to kind of lead and engage. And I think you're always trying to train them up in that way. Right. So it's like discipleship, like, let me do it and you watch. Let's us do it together and then let's you do it kind of thing. And so just instilling those rhythms and those habits and yeah, I guess showing them Jesus throughout it all and praying for their little souls.

Yes.

I love you saying rhythms and habits. I think that's so true because that shapes our life. I mean it literally shapes our life and the life that we're really kind of shaping for our children. And as you were saying about the kids response and how it changes so much as they grow older. We were in the car the other day, Cooper, our oldest, who's 15 and has a permit, a driver's permit, which is just blows my mind, I can't imagine. I know, it's so weird. It's like so weird. I know Dave's over there he's like, it blows my mind, too. But we were in the car, and he was with his three best friends. We had a little task they were all helping us with. And I thought to myself, I'm like, I have a captive audience of these teenage boys I'm gonna use this time. And so Dave and I start talking about how to find a mate. And, like, I don't know, somebody was talking about something behind us, and then I, like, we both jumped on it, and we were like, well, let's talk about that. Let's talk about the qualities we look for and, you know, the kind of mate God, we want you to have. And, you know, we're talking, trying to talk on their level. And our son Cooper, who was very analytical and very matter of fact, was like, mom, everything doesn't have to be like a life lesson. I mean, we're just hanging out, like, why does it have to be a life lesson? And I was like, well, you can always learn something. And I kept going. I kept going. But I just thought, it's so true. I mean, finding those moments when they're teenagers is a little trickier. But finding those moments where you do have that captive audience, and there are those moments, and sometimes they're unexpected, but finding a natural way and in fun ways to kind of get their attention and teach them something, it's huge. And I think, too, I know Cooper is kind of joking with us about that, but it's because we often do that. I mean, that's kind of part of our family, is we'll be having a conversation, and if there's something that has kind of hit a nerve, we're gonna really lean into that and talk about that. And when they're teenagers, they may act like they're not listening. And even all different phases of childhood, sometimes you think the kids aren't really taking it in, but they are. I mean, they really are, for sure.

Intentionality goes so far. I love coming back to what Selena said. Rhythms and Habits.

It's so fun. I know.

I think that should be the name of your next book, and I think that's what we're gonna call this podcast episode, Rhythms and Habits. Because that is.

It's the truth, though.

It's huge.

When you get that in place, things just go right. So we've talked about kind of your rhythms and habits with parenting, with kind of the fierce parenting. But, you know, since this is a marriage podcast, too, we'll come back to that. Like, what are some of the rhythms and habits just in your own relationship with each other because you guys obviously have a great marriage. You're mentoring couples from all over the world through your ministry and teaching others. And so what does that look like kind of behind the scenes to peel back the curtain a little bit and just your own relationship? And how has that evolved, so to speak, over the last 18 years?

I think. Well, just to start, too, there's a lot of learned habits, right. And a lot of learned rhythms for different seasons because we didn't just fall into, like, reading our Bible again, like, it's something you have to be intentional about. We didn't just fall into, like, having margin in our lives because we understand that we just need that space and time during our weeks to be able to function well with each other. And so we. Those are rhythms and things we've seen from other couples we've read about or we've, you know, heard on a podcast or something. So just kind of keeping your ears perked to things that might help you establish those rhythms have been helpful for us. For me, anyways.

I have been. I've been in awe of this. How am I going to say this? So I feel like oftentimes believers, Christians, they either take for granted or they live without true, deep peace. And what I mean, and peace can be a driver in all these. In all these big areas, right? So we can oftentimes function kind of and get used to functioning without real deep peace. And that could be in our. In our marriage. It could be in just our lives in whatever capacity. We're maybe not living out the faith and the reality of Christ on the cross and him resurrected. But. And so I'll just give you an example. We were considering a financial decision, and we felt really good about it, and then we pulled the trigger on it. We were headed down that path. And then I went to bed. And then the next morning I woke up, no peace. Like all the peace I thought I had was completely evaporated, gone. Complete lack of peace. I looked at Selena and said, what is going on here? I don't feel. It was like something. It's like the carpet had been pulled out from underneath me. And so I basically had gotten so accustomed to living with this deep peace that when it wasn't there, it was so glaringly obvious that we just. We automatically knew within hours we had. We had already reached, like, back backtracked and gotten out of that. Thank goodness that we could get out of it at that point. And so I think the point I'm trying to make is a lot of couples can they learn? And they, they. The habits they develop kind of. They acclimate them to living in a certain, like low grade anxiety, low, late, low grade, lack of peace. And I think if we. We learn to listen to spirit in us in those ways and we follow his lead and we can kind of get to a place where the habits start to develop. So for us, it was margin. Like you're saying, like, we've learned that if we're not connecting, that's not sustainable. So what habits are we. It's almost like a matter of necessity, a matter of survival in a sense where we just did it out of necessity. Now we don't know how we would ever live without margin or how we'd ever live without studying the Word together and talking about it regularly.

1. And the boundaries. Yeah. So talking about the word and reading the word together. I've just started reading it more in bulk. I'm trying to follow a plan. And I don't stick to them usually. But here we are, like 50 days in. I'm feeling pretty good. But I didn't realize how much it affects us when we are not in the Word in consistently in bulk. I don't know how to say the most, like, lots of reading, lots of scripture reading. Because then we set those boundaries. Usually at night after the kids go to bed. That just works for us. And we sit and we talk, we digest the day. We, you know, figure out. And even sometimes Saturday mornings, we try to do coffee time. We learned from another couple, they would tell their kids, okay, it's mom and dad's coffee time. Like, and their kids are adults now. Yeah, and their kids are adults now. And they said that's one thing they remember and respected. And we're so grateful that their parents modeled that for them.

Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah, it's good.

I love that. And you know, I know a lot of parents listening, they're like, you know, our kids, they don't like that. And I always say, you know, they may not like it at first, but as the parents, we set that pace and saying, you know, I think it's good for kids to hear like, mom and dad are having their coffee time, or this is Mommy and Daddy time, or we're putting you to bed, you know, a little early. Because mom and dad need to connect. And it's not that we don't love you, we love you so much. But mom and dad need time together. Cause we love each other too. And I think it's so healthy. And you know, when kids are little too and they're used to being attached to you all day. And maybe that's a change in their routine. Of course, even like adults, adults, most adults don't like change too. And it's kind of like, you know, it doesn't feel right at first, maybe because you're having to change some things. But again, it's those habits and those rhythms that really start shaping things well.

And kids are paying attention, you know, more is caught than taught. And when they see mom and dad prioritizing their faith, prioritizing their marriage, that gives them such a solid foundation. And to have the kind of faith that makes them want to follow Jesus, to have the kind of marriage that makes them want to be married someday. And even like little things like I try to be intentional with, I almost always read on my phone, like whether it's the Bible or anything else, I have the Bible on my phone, I read it there. But at home I always make sure that when I'm reading the Bible, I read it out of my actual leather bound paper Bible so that when my kids walk by, it doesn't just look like I'm on my phone playing Candy Crush, but they see that that's what I'm doing right then, you know, not to like show off to them like your father's in the Word, but to try to just model to them that like, this is a natural rhythm and a healthy rhythm and a priority in my life. And I hope that it, you know, will be for you as well as you are making your own decisions. And so I don't know, I just think that whatever we can do to kind of intentionally model faith, model healthy marriage, relationships, and you guys are just masterful at that. And I think that for those listening and those watching, I don't know if you just want like, again, none of us have it all figured out. There's no like Google that have it all figured out except, you know, Jesus himself is the only one who's perfect. But if you want like a real couple that you know, you can look to, that loves Jesus, loves each other and has really solid teaching and things that you can learn from that will make your faith and marriage stronger than. Look up Ryan and Selena, fierce marriage, fierce parenting, and Ryan and Selena. We're about out of time, but tell us how, tell people how they can find you. You know, tell them what your, you know, where they can find your podcast and all that. And then if I don't know, tell us whatever you want. The floor is yours. It's open mic night. And You've got the floor.

I'll keep it very, very simple. Just you can find us on all the socials, just with our handle, fierce Marriage. All one word or fierce parenting. And also, you can just go to fiercemarriage.com, fierceparenting.com, we have a ton of books, a ton of resources, and, yeah, it's all there for your perusal and enjoyment, so we hope you find something you like.

Well, one quick thing before we log off and put you on the spot, each of you have to tell me it doesn't have to be your favorite. It doesn't have to be the wisest, but one piece of marriage advice that you want to share with us. One little nugget and one little, final, final word. And, sweetie, you can, too. You're thinking like you want to share it. Okay.

All right, let's let them have that.

All right, Just Ryan and Selena, what do you got?

Yeah, And I would say laugh a lot. Make sure you keep laughing and make each other laugh, because nobody makes me laugh harder than he does. And I think that's one of the first things that I loved about him. But it's brought us closer in moments where we are just not feeling connected. It's broken the ice. It's lighten the mood. It's, you know, stop the tears in some good ways and healthy ways. And so there's nothing like just laughing together and your kids seeing you. I tend to take myself way too seriously, and so. And he does. He's good to remind me to not do that.

I love laughing with you.

Yeah, I love that.

My. My one piece of advice would be be quick to apologize and fast to forgive. I think that's key to have fast fights without. Without, you know, sweeping it under the carpet, under the rug. Be quick to apologize, fast to forgive. Yeah, man.

Great. Good advice.

Yeah.

You guys do those things, I'm telling you, instant improvement in marriage. Hey, add those to your rhythms and habits right there.

Yeah. There you go.

And check out the upcoming book rhythms and Habits by Ryan and Selena Frederick podcast coming 2021.

The new. Yeah.

Hey, thank you guys so much. You're awesome. I can't wait to hang out together sometime. Hopefully soon in the future. Sometime when everything can be, like Dave said, somewhat more normal.

Can't wait. Can't wait. But until then, we love you guys. We're cheering. You're on.

Love you guys. Thank you so much for having us.