Love and Money

Hey, welcome to the Naked Marriage podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast, we undress the truth about sex, intimacy, and lifelong love. And today we've got a great topic. It's about money, but it's not just about money. It's really about all the different dynamics money can play into marriage and how to communicate effectively. And to help us with this conversation, we've got our dear friends Jeff and Shanti Feldhahn. We've written a new book called Thriving in Love and Money. And their research behind this book, their practical tips, I think could make a world of difference in your marriage.

Listen, Jeff and Shaunti are the real deal. We love them. They are bestselling authors, popular speakers, and internationally renowned social researchers, both with professional graduate degrees from Harvard, which is where they met. So they're definitely, like, the smartest people.

We know, our smartest friends.

And they base their books on extensive, nationally representative research studies. Their books have sold 3 million copies, and it's in 25 languages you might be familiar with. For women only, for men only, for couples only. And Thriving in Love and Money is yet another amazing resource. They also are parents to two teenagers. They've been married 25 years. So I know you guys are going to love this conversation, but before we dive in, we want to tell you more about a great resource.

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Wow. Like I said in the intro, we are so excited to have our dear friends Jeff and Shanti Feldhan on here. And they are. They're awesome. Like, they're so down to earth. And yet, even though they're so down to earth, I truly consider them my smartest friends.

They definitely are my smartest friends.

They met at Harvard. Like, I'm not even qualified to have, like, a Harvard T shirt that I buy on ebay. Like, they are just brilliant and wonderful people. And we're going to have a great conversation today that's so timely about these money issues. Because right now, as we're recording this live, we're in the midst of quarantine still. And financial issues and economic uncertainties are creating all kinds of pressure in marriage. But even if you're listening to this years later and you don't Even remember what COVID 19 was, money issues in marriage are evergreen. It's always going to be an issue. And so this is a timely topic no matter when you're listening. But I'm going to shut up for a second and just say, welcome, Jeff and Shaunti.

Thanks, Dave.

Thanks so much, you guys. We love you all.

Oh, we love you guys.

I wish I could give you a big hug. We're not allowed to hug anybody right now, but I just want to lather myself in Purell and then just give you a big hug if you were.

Virtual hug.

But we'll have to wait. We'll take a rain check on that.

Absolutely.

But we're still glad to be talking to you guys.

Yes. So this subject of money could not be more timely. I mean, it's always, like Dave said, it's always been a subject of contention in marriage. But I mean, right now it's in the midst of quarantine and social distancing and everything having to shut down. I mean, it's just such a huge place where there's tension in the home, especially in marriage. And so tell us just a little bit of what inspired you to write this book.

Well, actually, there's a super miraculous story, candidly, around what happened. And I know, I think we've told you guys this, but I'll do the short version. We have been researchers for years, right? You all are familiar with some of the other books we've written and we do these big social research studies. And we didn't know this was a number of years ago. We really, truly didn't know two things how we would ever pay for research again, because, long story, but the business model in the publishing world had changed and our research projects are expensive. And that's what brings us the good data that we can share with people and say, this is true. We've done the studies. It costs a lot of money, but whatever it is that we're studying to help relationships, this will help. So that's the first thing. We didn't know how we would ever pay for it again. And then we also, candidly, we really didn't know if There was a topic like what to study. Like, we really were conflicted and started praying about this in 2017, really, after the launch of the next book was March 1st, we started praying about this. March 9th, I got a call out of the blue from. We weren't familiar with them at the time. Thrivent Financial, they're very missional organization. And they said, look, marriage has a huge issue around money, and we don't think it has to be an issue. How would you all feel about making this your next research project and us funding it?

Wow. It was God's timing.

Well, and here's the thing that's crazy about this, and we can explain this a little more in a second, but Jeff and I were scared to study this topic because this was not an area of agreement in our marriage. But also, candidly, we had no clue that two years in advance when we picked March 3, 2020, as the release date for the book. We had no idea that one week later there was going to be a national emergence declared, and suddenly millions of couples would be stuck at home worrying about money.

That's just incredible.

Yeah.

And one of the things that evolved over time as we were kind of doing the research, because we never know what the research is going to look like when we start out, we just kind of start asking questions of people. And the first point that we knew was that there were already so many great money books and programs out there on the technical side, how to budget, how to budget, how to get out of debt, all of those things. And we also knew that people really didn't want to hear us talk about it, because out of all the relationship study and work that we put into our own marriage, this was the one area that was really a sticking point for us. And we weren't great on the technical side of things. So, you know, this book, we knew, had to look a whole lot different. The research had to look a whole lot different than everything that had ever been done out there.

And you guys did that. And I love this quote from the book. I'm just gonna share. It says, when we have conflict around money, it's not about the money. It's about how money makes us feel. And it's an opportunity for either conflict or connection. And I love that because it does it just money, it's kind of. It shows us some of the weak spots, maybe in the marriage, but it's not necessarily about the money. It's an opportunity for either conflict or connection. And I think right now, couples are experiencing that, like you said, because of the unique dynamic that we're all in, we're being squeezed. And it's revealing some of those cracks. It's revealing maybe where there was some underlying conflict or disagreement about money. But it can also be, you know, not just a topic to avoid fearfully, but a way to really, really connect together. And you guys, in your research and in this book, just, you put the cookies on the bottom shelf. You really help us break down, you know, this big macro level research in a way that is so practical, showing us as couples, like how to have healthy conversations related to money.

I think that your story is probably very typical, but I just want to know, like, and for the listeners, is that typical? Is it typical for couples to really have tension around money and to avoid kind of having conversations about money? Is that typical? Did you find that to be typical in your research?

Actually, it's so funny because we kind of thought like a lot of other people out there, we sort of thought we were the only ones who were this dysfunctional. We really thought everybody else out there is doing a great job. And actually we did find in the research that we're actually very typical that we actually found 77% of couples can't really talk about money. Well, I mean, you try, but you get defensive or you kind of want to avoid it, or somebody is embarrassed because they feel like they're spending too much much, or somebody's annoyed that the other person is spending too much or whatever it is, it causes some really kind of walls in conversation. And there's a lot of avoidance, frankly. Like me and Jeff, we didn't, we didn't fight.

We just avoided talking about it. Yeah. You know, we, as a friend of ours said, all my life in my marriage, I just kind of learned how to cope around it. Certainly not around it, but cope. So that really is the challenge. And one of the things that came out of the research, gosh, I mean, with Shaunti, we've been studying men and women for over 15 years now. And I thought I knew a little bit about how women tic, not just how Shaunti does, but, you know, from all the studies. And you always hear people say, you know, if you can talk about it, that'll help. Just talk about it. Well, what I found about this subject was that I couldn't talk about it. Not because I didn't understand what was going on inside of Shanti, which I didn't, but I didn't really understand what was going on inside of me around the topic. And so it was only after months and all the research that I began to understand myself so that I could explain it to her.

Well, here's the thing that we found about the. The money conversation thing is that statistically, and this, we can get into this if you want, but the bottom line for everybody who's listening to know is if you want to have a good relationship around money rather than a bad one, statistically, the answer, the solution is two things. It's. You have to be able to build some cushion, some reserve fund, some emergency savings, whatever that looks like. It doesn't matter what your income level is. It. It matters. Living below the line. Right. So you build up a little bit of cushion. It kind of helps the relationship, not just the finances, but in order to do that, you have to be able to talk about money. So if you want a good relationship rather than a bad one, you have to be able to talk about it. And the key is that we've kind of not had to. Right. I mean, when there's a time of great prosperity, I mean, even if, you know, not everybody has a ton of income coming in or a lot of prosperity, you can kind of get by. When the economy is sort of humming along, you know, and you sort of have. You do your thing over here, I'll do my thing over here, and we do cope, we can get by. Well, that's not an option anymore.

Yeah.

For a lot of. And so you have to understand how to come together and talk about it, not avoid it, not get defensive. And by the way, for the 23% of you who are listening, who can talk about money. Well, we're jealous of you.

Yes.

And everybody else kind of thinks you're mutants. Right. Because it's not necessarily a natural thing. And what Jeff just said is the key. Once you understand yourself and your spouse in these areas that we're gonna talk about that are running under the surface, it's astounding how much talking about it actually comes naturally.

Yeah, I love that. I mean, that's. You know, we're like you guys, like Dave and I, especially early on in our marriage, I think we really didn't talk specifically about money, and we shared that kind of on the previous side.

It was a minefield when we tried to talk about it.

It was.

And I think a lot of it, and I'm sure in your research, and we can talk more about this. It's because, you know, we're raised differently in different homes, and whether we realize it or not, you know, our family has a view of money, and we usually take on that view, or maybe what we experienced as children, if we had a lot or a little, it really shapes our view of money. And so then you're bringing two different people together with different backgrounds, and we have different views of money. And then all of a sudden, you know, you're trying to spend, spend together and save together. And you may not be on the same page with that. And that's kind of where we were. And you know, throughout the years, we tried to do a better job about talking about it and getting on the same page financially. But one thing I've really found with Dave in particular is, you know, we can have. There's always stressors in marriage, but if there, you know, there's our normal stressors in marriage going on, then all of a sudden there's financial stress. It really is the straw that breaks the camel's back for him. And so for us, having that reserve has been key. I mean, I love that you found your research that was so helpful. Cause just. And like you said, it's gonna be different for every couple, but just making sure there is some cushion, there's some margin. It is financially smart, but it also for Dave in particular. Cause I think it bothers him more than it bothers me. And in the beginning, I used to be like, why are you worrying so much? I was just like, it's all gonna work out. But I know that now that we've been married almost 20 years, I mean, he's just trying to, to be a great provider, protector of our family. And I so appreciate that. And now that I'm learning more about money in all these years, you know, I realize that's just smart and makes sense. But I know for us both, we really try to make sure that we're not neglecting that because it not only helps us financially, but it brings us peace of mind as a couple. And it really, it just, it's good for Dave. Like it's. Wouldn't you say, sweetie?

Yeah, it's just one of those areas that it brings us closer together. Like, you know, again, like you said, it's not even necessarily about the money as it relates to your marriage. It's about how the money makes us feel. An opportunity.

So true, so true.

For your conflict or connection. I love that. And for you guys, for you listeners, I'm going to throw out some different resources as we go, but there's a website where you can take a free online assessment to kind of find where you rank on the love and money scale. If you go to thriveinlovandmoney.com you can check that out. And it could be a great place to start the conversation. But for you, Jeff and Shanti, you guys were talking about how you were kind of maybe out of sync in this area for a long time. So kind of what's. Tell us a little bit more before we kind of dive into some of the specifics of the book about how. How you guys have handled money through the years and what. What that journey has been like and how that's impacted your marriage.

Yeah, sure. You know, this started well before we were writing books and we were living in Manhattan at the time. I was working in a law firm. Shawn was working, you know, at down on Wall street as an analyst, and we had $135,000 of student loan debt.

Harvard is expensive, and Manhattan is expensive, too.

Oh, goodness.

And this is back in the mid-90s. And, you know, I'm sure that folks now, 135, they're going, oh, that's nothing. You know, but anyways, we would. I worked all the time because I was focused on trying to get rid of that debt. And I worked at a big law firm, made a, you know, decent salary, but it required me to be there all the time. But nevertheless, you know, we'd try to find maybe two days a week, two nights a week that I would leave the office so that we could get dinner together. And then I'd oftentimes go back to the office after dinner. But as we are sitting there having dinner together and things are going well, and the waiter comes by or the waitress and asks if we'd like something to drink, and I'd order water, because I always do because that's free. And Shaunti would say, oh, I'll take a Diet Coke. And in my mind, I wouldn't say anything to her, but in my mind, I'd go, dang, that's $4.50. That water would be just fine to have. The meal would go on. I would kind of get myself out of that mood. And then the wheels would come off because they'd come back and say, can I get you anything else? And she'd say, can I get another Diet Coke? And if anyone knows Manhattan, one thing that you know, that there's no such thing as free refills. So I'm sitting there steaming because now we've just spent $9 on something that I saw as irrelevant, and every meal ended almost that way. But I didn't know why I was really so upset about this. And she certainly didn't know why I was upset because I couldn't talk about it. And it wasn't until months later that Shaunti kind of diagnosed it and told.

Me, well, and this is a silly little example, but it's of these silly little examples that marriage conflicts over money or.

Oh, yeah, for sure.

But I didn't realize it until we started talking about it, and he was able to explain, this bothers me, but I don't know why. And. And I said, oh, you know, we were newlyweds. So he didn't know at the time that I actually. I know I'm kind of weird. I don't like the taste of water. And. And it's literally, for me, it's not fun to go out to eat if I have to just drink water. Like, I want a iced tea or some soft drink.

And I can totally relate to that. Oh, I'm so glad I can relate to it. Of course, now we're never going to be able to get Diet Coke to be a sponsor of the Naked Marriage podcast. Oh, my goodness. They're overpriced. No, but I can relate to that. But I can totally see both of your perspectives on here. I mean, I think that this is just one of the million kinds of areas in marriage where you have to navigate that, because I totally see where Jeff was coming from. It's like, man, we're trying to dig out of this hole, and this is a simple way that we could. That we could work toward that. And this seems frivolous. And for you, you're like, hey, if we're gonna. This is our only time to connect. I want this to feel special, and I'm gonna be gagging on water the whole time. Like, I want to actually enjoy this time with you, and this is an investment for me, and in our marriage, we're enjoying the time together, and this is a relatively small expense. And, you know, you both have a lot of points, but it's not a matter here. Like many things in marriage of. Of who's right and who's wrong. It's like, how do we navigate this together? And I think for a lot of couples, they get stuck on those little things and never find a way to work through it. And that can ultimately create a snowball that can unravel the marriage. And so the research and the tips that you guys provide, I think is so, so valuable in helping couples identify maybe where some of those areas are and then what to do about it.

Yeah, well, that's the point, right? That was what we were studying. That was the. Okay, so what is going on underneath our responses to money? Because you know how you said earlier that one of the things that you guys sort of realized along the way is you're raised in different homes, right? Well, interestingly, one of the things that we found in the research is that it's actually, believe it or not, the factor. We found five factors that were underneath the surface, and one of them that dealt with that topic, it actually, it turns out it has almost nothing to do with how you were raised. Right. It has everything to do with how you responded to how you were raised.

So true.

We literally had one of our very first interview days. We had a research trip to a big church, and they were arranging all these interviews with random people we would never meet on our own in order to get kind of that random input from people. And we had one period where one guy comes in and sits down and says, I grew up really poor, and I never want to feel that way again. And so I save everything. You know, I just. I never want to feel that way again. So I save everything. Literally an hour later, the next person comes in and sits down, and he goes, I grew up poor, and I never want to feel that way again. So we go out to eat all the time because I don't want to ever, you know, have to, like, stop myself from enjoying life. And it's the exact same background, two completely different responses. And so it's. It's really, truly this, what we're talking about here. We don't realize that we are not valuing what our spouse values, and that neither of those things, unless you're dealing with a gambling addiction or something. That's what you said, Dave. Neither of them are right or wrong. They're just different. And we can't think of the other person's values as illegitimate.

Man, that's so good.

I love that. And that is so true. I mean, because we could be ra. Like, we could maybe both partners grew up poor. But you're right, they're gonna have different responses just based on. Just different personalities and how they see it, you know, and how they see the solution. What the solution is to not have to live that way. So, yeah, that's so interesting.

Yeah, those five principles are gold. In fact. Sweetie, would you. Could we read these real quick? Cause I just feel like this is.

And then we can unpack whichever ones you guys wanna unpack.

This is so rich. And that first one, Shani, that you just pointed out, we often do not value what our partner values. Saweetie, you've Got your sexy reading glasses on? Would you like to so I can see?

All right. Number two, it's. We use money to try to relieve our fears, which often makes our partner's fears worse. Which is kind of what you guys were talking about, that dynamic where, you know, I think Jeff's fear was like, we're never going to get out of this debt. Whereas Shanti's like, but I want to live in the midst of this. Like, I don't want to feel like we can't even live for years and years. And number three is we resist truly becoming a team in our finances. And I think that is so interesting. You want to read number four, sweetie?

Sure. Number four, we clash over money because we process and communicate differently. And number five, we have a knee jerk reaction about money due to faulty beliefs. And even in the course of our marriage, I think we've experienced all of these at different points. So this is, this is so insightful, as your research always is, and so kind of like, where do we go from there? So couples listening to this right now and they're dealing with financial stress. And the root of that could be a million different things. It could be the loss of a job or the layoff or the uncertainty about the future. Or maybe this is just exacerbating some of the underlying financial issues they've had all along because they've been living with these principles about different values, different mindsets, communication pitfalls related to money. And now they're being squeezed more. And those are. They're feeling the pinch of that even more. And so where do they start? Because I think that that's often the hardest step. And in our own, in our marriage, some of those financial arguments came back to like, we just don't know where to start. It's like we're trying to put out a forest fire with a squirt gun. I don't know where to even begin. The problem seems too big, but you guys break it down into bite sized pieces that really help any couple, no matter what their starting point is, get to a healthy place. So help us navigate those starting points.

The very, very baseline starting point is what Jeff mentioned at the beginning. You have to understand your own feelings under the surface. So start there. That's the beginning. And that's actually not a squirt gun. That is actually the.

A water cannon.

It's a water cannon. Well, it's more like the helicopter overhead spraying the water over the whole forest section at once. Because what we found is that if you. It starts the funnel so to speak. If you can understand why you get irritated about such and such, like you still might get irritated, but suddenly understanding it, you're able to go, oh, now I can talk about it. And the next time that we have to come together around whatever that money conversation is, we've lost some of our income. There's big decisions that have to be made. You usually get a defensive, you usually avoid it, or one person takes over and the other person feels resentful or whatever. Suddenly you're able to actually explain what's in your heart. It reduces the defensiveness. The tension goes away because you don't have that sense of being all kind of bound up and frustrated and you're able to talk about it much more naturally. And so the starting point for that then allows you to talk about the technical stuff. Then you can talk about, okay, how do we change our budget now that our, you know, we're on furloughs at our job and pay has been cut by 30% and what do we cut? You know, you're able to actually have those conversations because you understand yourself and hopefully your spouse does. I will tell you one of the tools that we recommend for this. If someone is going through the book, there's something that we call the love and money exchange. And it is so simple where you literally just read the book with a pen in hand about yourself. You literally go through and go, wow, this, you know, this section here, this is really me. Like we've identified all these different patterns and that one's not me, that one's not me, but this one really is me. And you go through it and you circle and highlight the stuff that applies to you and your spouse does the same thing. And then when you trade and read each other's comments, you're getting a personalized into the heart and the mind of your spouse and unlocks all the doors to communication.

And that actually answers the next question I was going to ask, which is, you know, once you've become self aware, once you've kind of got that helicopter view of the forest fire for your own feelings, how do you help your spouse understand you as you're trying to understand them? And that answers it, guys. You know, get, get this book, Driving in Love and Money. And both of you go through it like a journal. Circle the parts that are speaking to you, underline, put notes in the margin. This is what I feel when we and really, really learn each other that way. I think, man, if we would have had that early in our marriage, the conversations that would have helped the fights that would have prevented. It's just huge.

Yeah. Because what I hear you saying, and this is such a huge thing, is, you know, when we have these fights over finances, it's not always, and not usually about the money. It's about the feelings involved, and it's about how we communicate those feelings. And I love how you guys are taking the guesswork out of this. You're really giving us such. Just practical tools to help us communicate. Because that is how we get on the same page and that's how we stop avoiding it, you know, like you were talking about in the beginning. Because for a lot of us, we just try to avoid it. We're like, let's just get around this issue. Don't wanna talk about it. Don't wanna kind of rock the boat, so to speak. But this helps you just so practically to get on the same page and to really understand yourself and your spouse so much better. And, you know, I know you talk a lot about just respecting each other's points of view. And I feel like when the couple does go through this book, just being able to not make assumptions and just really take what your spouse is saying, you know, I just encourage the. The listeners not only to get the book, but just keep that in mind. Be just so respectful and not make assumptions. Because really, I think we're gonna learn some. I mean, everybody who goes through this, you're gonna learn something new. You're gonna be. It might even like how your spouse sees money may not be at all what you thought. And I'm hoping that when people do this, they're gonna have those epiphanies of like, oh, my goodness, this makes so much more sense.

Yeah.

All of us, I mean, we want to be at our base. We want to be understood by the person who's most important in our lives. And we were having lunch pre. Pre COVID 19 with a couple, and they had read our earlier books and wanted to just tell us how much they'd meant to them. And, you know, we'd given them this book and they had been going through it a little bit. And he confessed. He said, you know what he said? In our marriage, I'm the saver. He said, when?

And that's not gender related?

No, it's not gender related at all. He said. But when I was a teenager, my family, my parents went through a personal bankruptcy. And he said that shaped how I looked at money and everything that was within me. I knew I never wanted to experience that again. And therefore, I was always focused about not being in debt, all of these sorts of things that, that came out of that said. So my wife and I get married, I tell her this story, she hears it, and we've been married now 10 years or so. And it wasn't until the shutdown started to really take hold that she looked at me and said, and she had.

Lost her job and there's now an ongoing, huh, Are we going to be able to meet ourselves?

And she had said, my gosh, is this how you feel every day?

Wow.

And he said, it is. And for once. And she loved him, she strove, she tried to understand him, but she couldn't until she really, really, really got it.

In that experience, she hadn't walked that road, you know, and that's huge. I mean, that's such a huge turning point for that couple, you know, that's, that's amazing.

Wow.

That is like, I mean, I'm just still thinking about that, the empathy that's, that's created. And I think that a lot of couples are going to experience that. And I think that every couple listening, they, they want, they want to take steps toward unity and love and money. They, they want to be able to really, really connect and for, to be able to talk about these issues and not make it a fight against his way versus hers way and who's right or who's going to get to make the call, but instead to really understand each other and face it as a, as a team.

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So for those, again, to kind of keep coming back to those, those early steps, because I think it's where a lot of folks are. For those couples that are on different, different galaxies as it relates to their mindset about money and they want to work toward. They want to work toward a unified, unified communication and some unified goals related to it. What would you say to a couple like that?

Well, the key is to realize. Well, actually, I'm going to put it in very personal terms. If Jeff and I can do it, you can do it. Let's just say that this was something candidly, like I said at the very beginning, when this research project first came up three years ago, and we knew this is what God was asking us to do, and we were thinking, you've got to be kidding me. Like, this is an area that. I don't think it's too far. I don't think we're overstating this to say this was an area not just of disagreement, but somewhat of dysfunction. Like, we just couldn't really talk about it. And what. He's looking at me.

So why don't you share our Dave Ramsey story?

Oh, dear. Okay. And I'll give you an example of that dysfunction. Jeff is more the saver, I am more the spender. And for years he wanted us to go to Dave Ramsey at our church. And I kept saying, oh my gosh, I'm traveling too much. There's this, there's that. And listen, all of those were reasons, but they weren't the reason. I just didn't want to go. And so eventually, this is horrible to admit. Jeff went without me because I wouldn't go with him. And we finally realized that the reason. The reason. So if you're listening to this and you're like, okay, that's us. The reason is that we had two different sets of expectations and values and couldn't talk about the reason I didn't want to go. For example, I eventually learned during the research project I didn't want to go because I suspected, and Jeff has confirmed that I suspected he would put us on the equivalent of a 500 calorie a day diet.

Right. And you're like, I don't want that.

You're going to be living in squalor.

Exactly.

But with a goal in mind.

Right, right.

And so here's the message for everybody listening to this. Here's the beauty of this, this sort of understanding of yourself. Just that, like that one thing. Understanding that Jeff me being able to say that and Jeff being able to acknowledge, okay, I can see why you would have thought that I'm going to honor your desire, have the equivalent of a 500 calorie a day diet. And for me to say, now I understand that you feel like you're always at the edge of not being able to provide for the family and that, you know, we're going to fall over a cliff, which by the way, is a very. That's a very common feeling among men, by the way, of how am I going to be able to provide for the family even if they're the spender. That's a feeling. And me honoring that and going kind of like the story Jeff told you where the wife said, is this what you feel like every day? Sort of going, wow, that's a thing. You really honestly feel that way. And both of us honoring the other person. I can promise you who are listening to this, once you do that and understand that the talking comes much more naturally. And once you're able to talk about it, you can get on the same page about budgeting, you can get on the same page about planning. You can come together in this weird time in history we're living in where there's probably gonna be economic uncertainty for some time.

I love that you guys, this is just those of you listening, get your hands on this book. The full title of the book is called Thriving in Love and five game changing insights about your relationship, your money and yourself. Be sure you can get it. Where all books are sold. There's a book and an ebook available now. You can also find the rest of their amazing books for couples only, for men only, for women only. They're all amazing. There's many more books@shanti.com you can learn more about that. Everything is amazing. And they also have a video curriculum and a workbook coming soon. And so one thing we wanna point out, if your church, you know, is looking for an expert or experts to speak on money, these are your people. So please reach out to them and reach out to your pastor and say, listen, you have got to have this couple on. A lot of pastors are doing these zoom kind of services and Shaunti and Jeff would love to do that. So please reach out to your people at your church and say, have them on. They're amazing. Our church needs to learn all this material.

Yeah, for sure. Jeff and Shaunti, they've sat in person live on some of the biggest platforms of churches all over the country, being interviewed for things related to relationships. I Think there's nobody better on the planet that can blend cutting edge social research with biblical truth. Coming from a Christian perspective, but rooted in this very practical research to just kind of help us, help us all to put our faith into action and to have the skill and the mindset and the tools and the research to know how to navigate the road ahead. And here specifically with money, I'm telling you, thriving and loving, Thriving in love and Money. I believe it's the most practical book I've ever read to help couples with their, with their communicating about money.

Right.

It's, you're not going to find, you're not going to find a clearer message than what they've outlined in this book. And now with so many churches doing online services, only this could, could bring some great content to your church by, you know, doing a live interview with them, having your pastor reach out like they said. So, Jeff and Chanti, for those who, before we get into the question that we'll answer together to kind of wrap things up. If people are interested in kind of bringing you in, I know lots of people love to bring you in live, but right now, in this kind of social distancing, not as many live church services, but people are looking for new content to stream to their churches and they want to interview you guys on this topic as part of that. How can they learn more about that?

Well, the easiest thing is to go to thriveinloveandmoney.com and you can either contact us through the website, there's a contact us section, or look at the churches section. And we're loading a lot of information in there to help pastors because frankly, this is something where so many pastors want to help their people around money right now, but they don't consider themselves to be money people. Right. And no pastor should feel like they have to avoid this because they don't know how to talk about it. Bring us in. Or me. Like we can do a side by side interview over zoom. We can record it at any time during the week. It doesn't even have to be something you use for Sunday morning, although many people we suspect are going to be doing that. But literally just as something to equip your people as leadership into your community. It's still your message as a pastor. You're the one who's leading it. And it's interviewing me in order to bring this really, really crucial, crucial information to help people come together around money right now.

Yeah.

So valuable guys, if you're a pastor listening, reach out to them directly. But for you know, all the many thousands of you who are listening that attend a church, text or email this to your pastor. Say, you know, the link to this podcast episode or specifically that website thrive in loveandmoney.com and just say, hey, we should interview. You should interview Jeff and Shanti for our church. Like, our church needs to hear this message. All right, guys, before we wrap up, we want to keep you online to help with this week's question. We do a question every week. Thank you. For those who sent in questions, you can send your questions to nakedmarriagepodcast.com we also appreciate all the questions you send us aveandashleywillis on Instagram or on Facebook, though the ones we answer live on air are just the ones sent to that podcast website. And we've got a great one for you here. So, my love, would you like to read this week's question?

Yes. It says, hello, I've been listening to your podcast for a few months and love your content. Thank you for being so real and honest and encouraging couples through your experiences. I've learned so much that I attempt to incorporate in my marriage. I have one question topic I'd be very interested in hearing you guys talk about. It's the topic of money. How can a couple build a shared vision about money? How can each spouse move past their own perspectives and experiences with money, which often lead to disagreements and fights, and build a shared perspective as a couple? Thank you. May God continue to bless your ministry.

Wow.

I mean, with that, basically, you know, we could put that question at the beginning of this episode and just say, listen to everything Jeff and Shanti have said, because I don't know if we've ever had a question that was so answered by the, you know, by the content that we've talked about. So, Jeff and Shanti, you've been really answering that question this whole time, so.

Yes, but I think the key words there. The shared vision. Yeah, the shared vision. I love how she said that. And so what would you say?

So it's actually funny. Really? That's the core of obviously what we were talking about. Yes. And there's two things that you're gonna have to do in order to get to that shared vision. One is you're gonna have to talk about all the stu we just said. Right. What are your. What are the things you don't realize that the other person cares about that? Wow. Okay, Maybe it is legitimate, and I need to honor that. All of that stuff is going to matter. But at the bottom line, we don't realize that sometimes we're kind of just resisting being one in marriage, period. We kind of just want to do what we want to do, and it's coming out in how we handle money. And that if you want a shared vision, you have to go, oh, my gosh, it can't just be me doing my thing over here, you doing your thing over here. My paycheck goes into my account. Your paycheck goes into your account. It can't be you and me. It has to be we. Right? It has to be us as one. And that requires kind of getting over yourself and really being willing to give up some of the things that you wanted to do or handle a different way.

I love that. That's so true. I mean, you're right. It's all about we. It can't be this, you know, just sticking your heels in and saying, like, this is who I am. I'm doing it this way. I don't care what you think, because that's not gonna get you anywhere. And I do think you're so right, Shanti, that a lot of times this isn't just happening when it comes to money. There's probably other areas of the marriage where that's happening as well. So, you know, but. But once a couple is able to have this shared vision about money, it usually can help in other areas of the marriage. And so, you know, as far as getting on the same page with budgets, tithing, saving, what would you say, kind of another way to word this is what would you say to a couple in urging them to create goals together?

Well, in order to create the goals, you have to do what we were talking about earlier, right? You have to be able to talk about it, because otherwise you're going to get defensive. Somebody's going to avoid it. There'll be frustrations. So you have to be able to talk about it in order to create the goals together. Realistically, when you ask. Ask yourself one question, really, I mean, and be very honest, which is, am I trying to do money in the way I want to do money? Like, that's a really tough question to ask yourself. You're not going to be able to create the shared goals if the answer is, yes, the way I want to do money. And honestly, let me put this in a very kind of basic way. You may have listened to what I said a few minutes ago and go, oh, well, we don't have a problem with being one in marriage around money. I mean, we don't have separate bank accounts, and my paycheck goes Here and your paycheck, it's all our money. That's not an issue for us. And maybe it's not. Maybe you are one. Maybe you can come up with shared goals. But maybe ask yourself this. Do you ever try to pull the Amazon package off the front step before your spouse sees it?

Oh, yeah.

I mean, like, there's so many little ways that we have to be honest with ourself that, oh, wow, I kind of am trying to do money the way I want to do money. So in order to have those shared goals, you have to come to grips with that in yourself. Once you do, once you're honest, then you can tell your spouse, you know, I kind of tend to try to pull the Amazon package off the front step before you see it. Yes, I'm going to be accountable. We're going to come together. And at that point, you're now very transparent. You're now very vulnerable. If both of you are doing that, literally, those shared goals are as easy as getting a piece of paper out and a pen and writing them down and deciding what you're going to start with.

I love that. And it's all about staying transparent, you know? But getting to that point, I think, is maybe the hardest part for some people. If you've not been doing that, I mean, if you've not been. You know, we talk on this podcast, it's called the Naked Marriage, because it's talking about having no secrets in marriage. But for some reason, when it comes to money, I do think people, they see it as like a little white lie, like, it's harmless. If I take that Amazon package without my spouse knowing, what's the big deal? But it is a big deal, because you're never going to have those shared goals. You're never gonna be able to get on the same page. And if you have all these little secrets about money and about other things, too. So I just love that, and I just appreciate you guys sharing such a wealth of wisdom with the audience. I know there's so many conversations, great conversations that I know are gonna happen when they finish listening to this podcast. We have a lot of couples that will listen separately and then come together and discuss it. And so I just. I encourage all of you who are listening discuss it if you wanna go deeper, and I hope you do. Please get your hands on Thriving in Love and Money by Shaunti and Jeff Feldhahn. It is an amazing resource.

That's right.

There's an assessment as well. I think you mentioned that at the beginning.

Yes.

And it's a free assessment. It'll tell you where you're starting.

I love it. And that's thriveinloveandmoney.com and it's free. It'll kind of get you rolling, but get the book and do exactly what they said with highlighting and circling and helping your spouse to understand your point of view and helping you both to have more peace in your marriage when it comes to money. Well, thank you guys so much for talking to us. You guys truly are some of our favorite people on the planet.

And it's back at you guys totally, man.

Yeah, we love what you do and you guys are just a gift to us and to millions around the world. And we just. Yeah, we just are praying good things for you and can't wait to see you in person again real soon. And again, encourage listeners. Guys, check out what Jeff and Shaunti Feldheim are doing. I promise it will change your marriage for the better. It has definitely changed ours. And thank you for listening. Thank you for subscribing. Thank you for leaving reviews. When you guys leave reviews, it helps others discover this podcast and together we're partnering together with you to help spread this message around the world. And we hope this has been an encouragement to you. God bless you guys. We'll see you next time.

Bye guys.

Thanks.

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