My Spouse is Angry

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Welcome to the Naked Marriage podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis. On this podcast, we undress the truth about sex, intimacy and lifelong love. We've been in a new series based on our brand new book, Naked and Healthy, which you can find@nakedandhealthy.com and we're talking about how to be healthy in your marriage, but also how to be healthy individually, mentally, physically, and spiritually. And today we've got a really important episode about really mental health, but it's even going to expand beyond that. How to let go of anger, how to let go of anxiety. And to help join us in the conversation, a dear friend of ours, Joel. Mom. He's the founder of Sarah Summit Leaders. We'll talk about what that is, but he's one of the most adventurous guys that I know. He's also the author of a great new book called Love Slows Down. How to Keep Anger and Anxiety from Ruining Life's Relationships. And you're gonna love our conversation with Joel. But before we dive into that, Ashley's gonna share a review. Thank you. By the way, for those of you who leave reviews, we read them all. They encourage us, especially the positive ones. And we really do appreciate you taking the time to share them.

We do. And today we have one from Brian and Jennifer. Five stars. Thank you, guys. It says, thank you, Dave and Ashley, for everything you share on your podcast. You have surely blessed our marriage. We are newlyweds for one year now. Congratulations, guys. And without you guys by our side, the first year, we probably wouldn't have made it. A lot of times when we watch or listen, my husband and I look at each other and smile because it's like you are talking to us directly. Thank you for everything. You are real funny and we love you guys. Well, thank you so much, Brian and Jennifer. That's one of my favorite recent reviews. And we love hearing from newlyweds. I mean, that's awesome. So they're ahead of the game and already listening to marriage podcasts to grow stronger.

They are. And we are talking directly to you, Brian and Jennifer.

We are. We are.

And for all of you listening in, we're talking directly to you. Too. And we're just so honored that you're here.

Let's dive in.

Well, like I said during the introduction, we are so super excited to have our friend Joel Malm here. He is, like, maybe the world's most interesting man. Like, there was an ad campaign years back called the World's Most Interesting Man. I feel like Joel could have probably sued that company for some kind of copyright infringement because he might really be the world's most interesting man. Like, you know, most people, I text them through the week, and I'm like, what are you doing? They're like, oh, I went to Walmart. You know, I got a meeting tonight. I got work tomorrow. When I text Joel, Joel. Sorry, I don't know. When I text Joel through the week, it's like, where are you? He's like, ah, well, I'm on the Great Wall of China. And then I'm hiking Machu Picchu this week, and I'm leading a team up Kilimanjaro. So I'm like, you're Indiana Jones, and I am, you know, like, I feel really boring by comparison. So I'm just glad to be hanging out with you. And on top of all that other stuff, Joel is an incredible writer and a really insightful author that just has a pastor's heart. And we're gonna talk today about his brand new book, Love Slows Down. If you're watching this on YouTube, you get to see me holding up this beautiful book. If you're not watching and only listening, imagine me holding up a beautiful book with the title Love Slows down on it. And we're gonna talk about what that means and how to find a healthy rhythm, how to overcome anger, and how all this applies to. To your marriage. So, Joelle, welcome. Welcome.

Thanks. Good to be with you guys. Man, what an intro. I hope I can live up to all those things you said.

Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

Well, tell us a little bit about the book. I mean, we've read it, and it's wonderful, and we're honored to have endorsed it. But I really feel like when I was reading it, I just had the sense, like, you know, not only do I need this to be reminded to slow down and to really process anger in a healthy way and to reframe a lot of what I do in a healthier way. But I think our listeners on the Naked Marriage podcast could really benefit from this. So I was so excited that you were able to come. So tell us just a little bit about, you know, the heart behind the book and how it could Specifically help maybe a married couple. Yeah.

Well, the basic premise of the book is that we are made from love, from God's love, made for God's love. And we're called to return to God's love. The challenge we have, of course, is, as you guys know, as soon as we were separated from God's love by the decisions we made, by Adam and Eve's decision, then our own decisions too. All of a sudden, the first emotion they felt was fear. They realized they were naked. That's a key word around here, right? They realized they were naked and vulnerable. And when you're separated from God's love, you feel that. And the key in the book, I talk about the three basic needs we all have and everything, every hope and dream you have comes down to wanting security, connection, and a sense of control in your life. And if you know the security could be financial security, it could be emotional security. The connection is a sense of feeling validated, feeling seen, heard, understood. And then the other is the control. Feeling like you've got a sense of empowerment, some sort of say over your life. And you think about it, in the garden, we had all of that. God's like, you got the run of the place. You're safe. There's no sin. So there was nothing to be afraid of in terms of security. There was connection, perfect connection with God. So much so that we walked with him in the garden. And then he's also like, you got the run of the place. Do whatever you want. Just don't do that one thing. Of course we did the one thing. We immediately felt the vulnerability. And ever since then, humanity has been feeling that. So God calls us and says, hey, return to my love, and you'll get the security connection control you're looking for. And apart from that, you're never going to get it. Your spouse can never give you the. The fullness of the security connection control you're looking for. And the reason we get so frustrated and angry sometimes is because we're looking for that from a place that we're never gonna get it. Your job can't give it to you, who you know can't give it to you, how much money you got in the bank can't give it to you. And your wonderful spouse, as wonderful as they are on their best day, cannot give you what you really need, which is the fullness of God's love. So that's what the book is about, and that's why it's called Love Slows Down. When you're trying to get those things from any place other than God's love. You're always gonna be running faster and trying harder. And why am I not getting this? And trying to control everything? It just doesn't work out. So that's the essence of the book.

You know, I love that. You know, I'm so excited we're having this interview right now. Cause I actually just this morning on Instagram, I got a message from a girl I don't know personally, but, you know, we get a lot of people that reach out that way. And she said. And it was just one sentence. And she was like, how do I say being so angry every time I try to do anything to work on my marriage? So basically, in other words, like, there's this baseline of anger. And she said she can't, you know, kind of from the way she worded it, she can't really figure out why she's so angry. But there's a baseline. So she's trying to better her marriage. And in her mind, she's doing the things that she needs to do, but she's angry about it every step of the way. What would you say to someone who's going through that?

Well, whenever we get angry at something happening to us, it's because of something happening inside of us. And it's because we feel a threat. It's that jumping back to that primal fear, it's because we feel a threat to either our sense of security, our sense of connection, our sense of control. Real quick little sidebar here. We found through the studies and research we've done, that people that are sensitive to that connection area, they don't like to call it anger. They prefer to call it frustration.

Oh, right.

This is where Emily, my wife, is. Yeah, she doesn't get. Well, actually, she does really get angry at me. But most things, when she gets. She's like, I'm not angry. I'm just frustrated because they've seen.

I have literally said this multiple times. I totally get this.

They've seen anger do damage to relationships. So they're like, well, we'll call it frustration. So. And that's what it is whenever you feel angry or you're feeling frustrated. If you're in that connection corner, if you've ever said, I feel frustrated, you're probably a connection person. Then when. Then what's happening is you felt a threat to something you really value, and there's nothing wrong with you for needing those things. It doesn't mean you're weak. We're made for those things. You're just never going to get it, if you're trying to get the fullness of it from your spouse. And that's why you get angry sometimes, because you feel that fear. They're never gonna understand me or man. Doesn't he realize when he does that it threatens our financial security or whatever it is? And it's always these threats we feel that lead to the anger or frustration.

Yeah. And when we feel like, maybe, I think a lot of couples listening to this right now, maybe who have that baseline of anger, it's feeling like, I'm doing all this work, but what are you doing? Like, I mean, I'm in this, like I'm doing more, I think. And we always, you know, we've said this before, we always usually give a lot more grace to ourselves and we rank ourselves a lot higher and whatever it is we're doing and we put our spouse lower automatically. It's just kind of human nature. And so I love the concept of this book because we do need to, we need to slow it down and we need to, you know, it's hard sometimes to take a long, hard look at yourself and ask God and the Holy Spirit to just work on you and show you, what are those blind spots I'm having and why I keep on holding onto this anger? And what unrealistic expectations am I putting on my spouse? And assumptions, you know, negative assumptions that I'm making of them. Because I do think a lot of couples, they will exist in this kind of just angry existence for years.

That's so true. The first half of this book is kind of focused on how do you control your anger in the moment. But the second half, I talk about that kind of low grade anger you're talking about that's just sitting below the surface. And honestly, 2020, a lot of us realized we do have low grade anger sitting below the surface. We were just like, why am I just exploding over the smallest things, like what happened here. Like, I'm a nice person. Who is this beast coming out of me? Because it's just been building. And the pressure and the feeling of threat to our security, connection and control, it's just been building. So, yeah, there's the responsive anger, but then there's also that deep seated anger that both of them you have to address.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. And another theme, even on the very front cover and through the book, it's not only the anger, but it's how to keep anger and anxiety from ruining life's relationships. And while anger and anxiety and you talk some kind of about the connection of the two, but they're also distinct. And I think anxiety is something that we've all felt in different ways through what we've experienced collectively through the pandemic and even beyond. And then there were obviously those who had a lot of anxiety even before all that began. And so that creeps into marriage. Ashley and I have talked about our own experiences with that through the years. But what would be your encouragement from the book and then from your experience as a pastor and otherwise of just that person who's listening and they just feel gripped by anxiety right now? Maybe it's not so much the anger part, but it's just paralyzed by anxiety and. Yeah. How would you encourage that person?

Well, so the tricky thing about anxiety, as somebody who has experienced much of it in my life, we've got a long line of it in our family, and my mom has been breaking off some of it from her parents. We just kind of pass on what was experienced. And so I've had to do my own battles with anxiety. But the crazy thing about anxiety is a lot of times it's irrational. And we know it's irrational, but you can't talk yourself out of it.

You can't shake it.

Yeah.

You're just like, why can't I shake this? I know it's irrational. People are like. People try and talk you out with facts. You know, facts over fear, man. You're like, yeah, I know. But I still feel really anxious right now. And that's the beautiful thing about it. Because anxiety is such a powerful emotion, you have to have something more powerful drive it out. And there's one thing that's more powerful than anxiety. Perfect. Love drives out fear.

Yep, that's it.

It's the truth.

And that's the only way you're gonna. And that's the crazy thing about it. I tell people all the time, if you're feeling anxious, the best thing you can do, first of all, you've got to recognize it, because fear doesn't go away. It has to be faced in small doses. And it's just like this vaccine that we're getting. They're actually going to be injecting you with the thing that you're afraid of getting, but it's in a small enough dose that you're able to build resistance to it. And you face fear the same way. And one of the best ways to conquer fear is to go out and show love to somebody, even if it scares you. Because perfect love, when that love of God starts flowing through you, it drives away your fear. That's the advice I give to people is you just gotta face it and take it in small doses. In counseling, we call it in vivo desensitization. Oh, that's big where it's live. You just live in vivo, like in Spanish. You just, you do a little bit of it at a time, take the little shot and you go. Let your body build resistance to it little by little. And the same thing in your emotions. You don't, you know, life doesn't get easier. We have to get stronger.

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Yeah, and I want to say, in light of, you know, couples where one spouse is experiencing anxiety and you guys, if you've listened to the podcast for any length of time, you know, my testimony and my four year battle with anxiety and depression, and I want to say for the spirit that is not dealing with anxiety but is really trying to encourage their spouse who is dealing with it, you don't have to have the right words. And I think it's easy to wanna say, you're okay, you're okay. But just like Joelle said, we know something's wrong. Like, we recognize it's irrational, but it's like it's a mind body reaction, you know, and we physically feel it. It's not just thoughts running through our head. I mean, we physically, for a lot of us who go through anxiety attacks, we physically get ill and there's this fight or flight thing going on in our body and it's really hard to shake. But I remember when I was going through that, he never just said, you're okay, but he would always say, I'm here. And he would always just, like, put a hand on my shoulder and listen to me, and he would reassure me that he loved me, no matter how anxious, no matter what crazy thing I said that day, whatever it is, whatever emotional response I had, just reassuring me that he was there and that he loved me no matter what. And so that perfect love, you know, that love from God that was supernatural that Dave had for me in my lowest of moments, in my most unlovable of times, really helped me to not be afraid, because it is. When you're going through anxiety, you have these irrational fears of your whole life falling apart because you feel like you're just not even the same person. You're a shell of a person. You feel doomed, and you feel like this is gonna define your entire life, and you're never gonna get over it. And so, as spouses, you gotta stand in each other's corner and reassure each other and just, like Joelle said, get stronger individually, but really together. I mean, as long as you really stay in it together and work through it. I just. I love that you kind of camp out on that in this book, because it's a really important piece to anybody who's facing anxiety.

Yeah. And the stories in this book, I think, are so. They're so meaningful. And Joel has great stories, and partly because he lives such an adventurous life. I mean, we're actually gonna be going with him this summer to Machu Picchu to hike the Inca Trail, something we wanted to do forever. So it's like an adventure of a lifetime for us. For Joelle, it's like a normal Tuesday. But, you know, he's taking us, and we're excited to be going. So the stories are so. They're just so meaningful, like from your childhood, growing up in a really unique situation, having moved to Guatemala, I think, when you were, like, 12. Is it? And growing up, having to learn the language and the culture and how that shaped you and strengthened you and gave you such a unique strength and resolve and worldview and how you've lived through that. I just love the stories, but kind of, like, I don't know, ask a question to bring it back to those people who are listening. Like you say, love slows down. What would your advice be to that couple who. They feel like maybe they're going at different paces, that one of them is wanting for love to slow down, but one of them is moving at a completely different pace, and they feel like they're out of sync. And maybe that could happen because their own personalities are so different. It could happen because their own life experiences are so different. I mean, like, you know, you and Emily have had very different life experiences. You know, how does all of that play into creating a unified vision for life together?

Well, yeah, I mean, that's a great question, because there's always gonna be. I mean, you've noticed this. There's always. There's the chill spouse tends to attract the not as chill spouse. And we love that about the other person. And my wife's the chill spouse.

I'm not.

So I'm always driving forward. I'm the driver, driver. And she's like, you need to calm down. I'm like, no, no, this is calm. I'm calm, sweetheart. I'm half the man I used to be now. But the thing you've always got to remember is your spouse, deep inside of them, has some hopes and dreams, and they may have never even been able to clearly articulate what that is, but there's something driving them. Sometimes it's stuff our parents we saw, and we're like, well, I should have that by now, or something we saw on tv, and you're like, well, we should have this by now. Or, you know, we're constantly comparing, unfortunately. And what happens is what happens in your spouse. And I tell this with people all the time. If you've got an angry spouse or very fearful spouse, you've got to recognize, first of all, if they're angry, what you're actually dealing with is fear. At the core of it, they're afraid of something, and they're trying as hard as they can to make sure the thing they fear the most doesn't come upon them. And a lot of times they don't even necessarily know what they want, but they know what they don't want. And so they're running as hard as they can from that. And anytime you see these crazy responses like, where did that come from in my spouse? Who is this person? You say there's something that got triggered in them that reminded them of something that maybe threatened them from their past or is threatening them right now and their hope and dream they have of, you know, maybe you've got a spouse who just go, go, go. And somewhere in the back of his mind, he got in his mind, well, we've got to retire by first, make the first million by the time we're 40 or whatever. And because dad said I'm a loser if I don't. And you maybe don't even realize your spouse has that thing. And, and in his mind, to live up to be the man that my dad told me to be or said I'm never going to be. I've got to make this million or I've got to have this secure job. And I see a lot of men ruin their relationships with their spouse trying to prove to a parent who's not even around anymore or even alive. Yeah. That they're worth it. Yeah. Like I've got what it takes. And so they take these jobs that, you know, take them away from their family, all to prove, dad, I can make the money. You thought I never could. In the meanwhile, their family's suffering over there and it's like, you've got to. I mean, that's what you guys new book is talking about if you're going to keep your marriage strong. You know, there aren't many marriage problems. There are just people with problems that bring them to marriage. So you got to recognize those motivations within you. And if you've got a spouse and you're saying, what is wrong with them? The best thing you can do is maybe help them talk through, you know, who is it you're trying to please here? And they may not even realize it, you know, well, my mom always said I could never be this or that or I'm not as domestic as I should be or whatever it is. There's always something we're trying to prove. There's a fear that we're not gonna be enough, not have what it takes. And if you can get to the fear and you uncover all of that, that's where the get to the core fear of it.

Yeah, absolutely. Because I know it's a lot of times in marriage you can be kind of fighting over something that really has nothing to do with your spouse or anything they did. And it's just people of the past, you know, and just that, especially when it comes to how we're raising our parents. And sometimes it's even just, you know, therapy. We talk all the time about Christian counseling and getting, you know, yourself individually in there, but also together. But it's really hard for a married couple to get past, you know, that thing when it's really an individual issue that the one spouse who is angry all the time just hasn't really dealt with. And so. Yeah, I love that, you know, trying to get through the layers of what's really going on there.

Yeah, so. So true. Yeah, there's so much richness and depth in this book. And, like, I really can't recommend it enough. And again, the book is called Love Slows Down. How to Keep Anger and Anxiety from Ruining Life's Relationships. It will be a book whose principles will not only help you in your marriage, but I really believe that there is so many nuggets of wisdom here that can help you grow in your faith, help you grow to be a better friend and just to live a life with less anger and anxiety, more rooted in a. The rhythms, the healthy, peaceful rhythm of life that Christ intended for us to have. So, yeah, Joelle, thanks for writing this and for sharing it with us. And we want you to stick around because we want you to share your wisdom with today's Q and A. We love ending every podcast with just a practical application of marriage. And so you guys write us real questions which we don't see until real time. And we're about to read today's question. Thank you. For those who submit questions on social media, you can find us Dave and Ashley Willis on Instagram or you can find us on Facebook. The ones we read here on the podcast are submitted to nakedmarriagepodcast.com and sweetie, would you like to read today's question?

All right. And again, we've never seen these until we are looking at them right now. So here we go. It says, how do you overcome fear that you are going to make the same harmful decisions that your parents made? I want to be able to trust myself as a husband and, and have hope and joy for the future of my marriage. Most of the time, it's hard to feel hopeful about that. You know, I love the honesty of this question. And we get a lot of questions like this because so many people are coming from brokenness in their home, whether or not their parents got divorced, but maybe they even had just what seemed to be a loveless marriage or just a really abusive marriage. And I think there is that deep seated fear of, you know, anytime things get hard, am I gonna become just like my dad? Am I gonna become just like my mom? What would you say?

I would say you need to focus on the right dad to become like.

Oh, I love that.

That's good. That's a bumper sticker.

That's a bumper sticker.

Yeah. If you're always comparing to your earthly father. I have a wonderful earthly father, but he's got issues even the best fathers do. But there's one example, Jesus Christ, who came and he set the standard. He lived a life. I mean, Jesus Christ was the living example of how to live in harmony with the seen and the unseen realities of our existence. And you are always look to him. If you're looking to anybody else, you probably will end up being. You'll revert back to those patterns because most is caught. You know, it's caught, not taught. We didn't intend to become like our dad. We just didn't see anything different. But when you get the Holy Spirit of God reprogramming your brain, you're being conformed not to the patterns of this world, but being transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you're able to test and improve and go, oh, yeah, this behavior isn't actually in line with how I know my father would want me to behave. And so you just gotta keep an eye on the right father. I think that's so good.

And Joelle's dad is actually here with us today. Welcome, sir. And he actually seems even cooler than you are, Joel. So just from he's the OG interaction. So we're honored to have him here as well. And I know I'm thankful to have had really great parents. You know, no parents are perfect. But for my own dad, I know, like, he ended up having to kind of break a generational cycle of anger. His father, my dad's father, had found the Lord, you know, late in life, shortly before his death. So I'm looking forward to the reunion in heaven. But up until that point, he had been a terrible husband. You know, he'd run around on my grandma. He had been just abusive in a lot of ways. And that's what my dad grew up with. And that's all he saw. And I think that there was probably a part of him that felt like, gosh, I don't wanna be that, but I don't know how to be anything else. Cause I've never seen anything else. But then when he really. My dad surrendered his life to the Lord at an early age, and he had been a young man who had a lot of anger and was on that same path, I would say. But when he really allowed the Holy Spirit to do a work in him and saw himself as the new creation in Christ, the Bible says we are. Once we put our faith in Christ, it really helped him little by little to just completely chart a different course. And then, you know, he and my mom. My mom's a wonderful woman of faith, you know, again, not perfect. There's no such thing as perfect parents. But they had a real faith and they saw themselves not as prisoners or slaves. To anything that they'd experienced or anything other than, lord, what is your will for our life? And that's what we want to do. And if you're listening to this, no matter what you've done, where you've been, who your parents are in Christ, you're a new creation. And it's what God says about you is really the only opinion that counts. Like, you don't have to work hard to try to prove your parents right or to prove them wrong. You can just live in the freedom of knowing that you're loved, you're beloved by God, and he loves you so much. And he couldn't possibly love you more if you made all the money in the world or if you were, you know, lost every goal you ever set for yourself. You're loved just because of who you are in him. You're his child. And when we see ourselves in that light, it really does free us from so many of the, you know, the false things in life that we're chasing after or the things that we feel imprisoned by, when really he's already handed us the key to walk out of that prison that we're sitting in. And so just reminding ourselves of that and knowing who we are in him, and turning to scripture and reminding ourselves what God says about us and the promises he has for our lives, it really does set us free.

It does. And I want to say something on the flip side of this. If you have a spouse like to this man's wife, and you know, your spouse has made it known that they have this deep seated fear and that they don't want to become their parent that was angry all the time or even abusive, and they have that deep seated fear. Go out of your way to affirm what they are doing, right? Like when you notice, you know, your husband being that upstanding man and being so kind and loving and gentle with you, affirm that. You know, I think sometimes we just assume our spouse knows these things, or we're like, well, they know. I mean, or they're a grown person. I don't need to say that. That's sometimes what we hear when we talk to couples. But go ahead and say it. Like, take that next step and say it. Because when someone has that deep rooted fear and they grew up in a dysfunctional home, they need to be affirmed because, you know, praised behavior is repeated behavior. And when you go out of your way to affirm your husband in that way, it's so good. And same thing if there's a wife who has a deep Seated fear of repeating the sins of her parents in some way affirm her in the right that she is doing. And pray together about this. You know, bring it to the Lord. I mean, he already knows what's on your heart, but bring it to God and let this be an ongoing conversation in your marriage, because you do want to break those negative cycles in your family and hopefully repeat the good things that happened in your family. But the truth is, God's called you to something new. Neither one of you is gonna repeat exactly either of your parents. You know, you are a new couple, and God has plans for the two of you specifically, and he brought the two of you together for a very specific purpose. And so just pray that you're on the right road together. And the more that you lean into God together and grow in your faith in him, the more you're gonna see that path before you.

And as one final piece of advice for this couple, I would recommend reading the new book by Joelle Ma, Love Slows Down. Love Slows Down. Because, I mean, truly, I think reading this book together and just letting it be a conversation starter could really help you with these very issues that we've been talking about. So, Joelle, as we wrap up, I want to give you the floor. Tell people any final words of wisdom you got, and then tell them where they can find this book and where they can find you. Yeah, yeah.

So a couple of things about that book. We wrote some youversion Bible reading plans that go along with it. We've had a lot of downloads of those, particularly the one about anxiety. So those. If you go to YouVersion, the Bible app, and you can type in Love slows down or Calming anger or Facing off with fear and anxiety. And that's a quick way to dip your toe in right now into the concepts in the book. And if it's something like, wow, there's.

Something here that's a free.

It's totally free. It's free resource, free download. You can get that. I've got a lot of stuff on joellemalm.com, J-O-E-L-M-A-L-M.com and if you're interested in going on an outdoor adventure with me, there's a link to that there as well. That organization is called summitleaders.com so all those kind of point to the same place.

Awesome.

Well, we are honored to know you, honored to learn from you, looking forward to sharing a great adventure with you this summer, and we really appreciate you being on the podcast that's right.

Thank you so much for being here, and we hope to see you all next time.