Navigating In-Law Relationships in Interracial Marriages

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Hey, friends. Welcome to the Naked Marriage podcast. We're Dave and Ashley, and we are so glad that you're here. We've got a great conversation for you today. It's kind of on two fronts. Two fronts where a lot of you have written in and it's the front of in law relationships, that whole family dynamic thing. We have a book out called Married into the Family that's all about that. And, you know, we have a big heart for that. That's part of our story. And then the second aspect of that is something we've been focusing more on lately, which is the unique dynamics of interracial marriages. By the year 2050, more than half of all marriages in the United States will be an interracial marriage. And we want to be part of that conversation. And Eric and Chanel represent both of those really important subjects. You know, they're going to talk to us today about both those.

That's right. So welcome, Eric and Chanel Penn to the podcast.

Thank you so much for having us. We're so excited.

We're happy to be here. It's going to be fun.

It is going to be fun. And I just want to tell listeners and people watching on YouTube how we met. So Chanel reached out over social media and basically just we started a conversation and you shared a video of you all sharing your testimony at your church. And I told Dave later about it. I was so struck by it. And I thought, man, more people need to have these open conversations. Because the thing about it, especially when it comes to issues of race within our own families, we all kind of clench up and we feel, you know, we don't know if we can talk about it. It's like, can we talk about this? Should we talk about this? And it just is one of those things That I think doesn' get talked about enough because most people don't know where to start with it, and they're afraid they're going to step on too many toes. And I feel like the way that you all delivered your story and how you have navigated these very murky waters and how God is guiding you through that, you do it in such a way that is so easily received and also gives such insight. And so I would love for y' all to start us off by just telling us a little bit about your story, how you met and kind of what those early years of dealing with those hard dynamics look like.

Absolutely. And so do you want to kick.

Off or you want to. Yeah. You know, for me, it was. It was kind of interesting. I met Chanel on a mission trip, of all places, and obviously, it was a culture shock for me. I grew up in a home where just different was dangerous. Like, different was scary. It was not an easy thing to navigate. It was just, you know, my family was from Detroit in the 1968 riots, of all places. So I've heard the stories of people standing out front with the Molotov cocktails. And so it was a scary conversation in my family. So when I had met Chanel and we kind of hit it off as friends, but I'm like, ooh, this can't be good. I know what my family would think of this. I can't actually like you because you're different than me, but I just remember the Holy Spirit putting in my heart, like, hey, like. Like, character over color. Like, don't look at outward appearance. But, man, this woman is a godly woman, and I have a plan for you and her if you pursue this. So that's kind of how we met. It was scary. It felt a little forbidden at times, but I just felt God in it. So.

Yeah. And for me, I grew up in a interracial family. My parents were both divorced and then got remarried. And so I had, you know, my brother, who was African American, my other two siblings that were white. And so, like, for me, Thanksgiving, it was like, hey, we have collard greens, and then we have mashed potatoes. We have a little bit of everything at the table. It was just a part of my life, and I was so naive because I really thought, you know, racism was something that was gone.

Yeah.

And then I remember meeting on this mission trip, and I was just, like, head over heels, like, he's the one. And I remember I was talking to my girlfriends, like, hey, do you think he likes me? And he had Told her what? She told me probably months later, like, hey, Chanel, he can't date you. You know, in his family, dating outside of your race and your color is, like, ungodly. Like, it is unbiblical. And so Eric didn't tell me the extent of it. I remember going over to meet his family for the first time, and he didn't tell them about me. He didn't tell them that I was African American. And it was like a culture shock. Like, who is this girl?

Oh, my gosh.

Oh, my goodness.

They went to the kitchen, and I'm thinking, man, they're like, my grandma. They're making me food. They're cooking it all up. But that was the beginning of a very intense family dynamic, of something that they just never navigated before. And so I didn't realize the extent of the trauma, like Eric had mentioned, with growing up in Detroit and family members going into prison during those race wars, that it was really triggering for them something that they had avoided for a long time.

Wow.

Yeah. And for me, I mean, I didn't know how to talk about it. I don't know if it was the most mature, just bringing, hey, meet Chanel.

Yeah.

But, you know, easy way to, like, open the conversation. So I. It was uncharted waters, and I just had to say, hey, I love her. I love you guys. And we know this ain't gonna be perfect. It's not gonna be pretty, but that's kind of where the journey started.

Yeah, that's, you know, like your story. It's. It's kind of parallel to Moses in the Old Testament. So, like, to remind the listeners of Moses, you know, Jewish man raised by Egyptians, but Jewish by heritage. Then, you know, he flees in the wilderness, and he connects with this. This African tribe led by a man named Jethro. An African tribal leader named Jethro. Moses marries Jethro's daughter. So now you've got a Jewish man marrying an African woman. And. And then Moses, his brother and sister were like, not. They were not cool with it. You know, even though, like, Moses, you know, felt led to this marriage, he loved his wife, he loved his father in law, and the father in law, son in law dynamic is one of the healthiest in law relationships in scripture. It's really, really cool to see. And so Moses brother and sister were like, wait a second. She's not like us. That's not cool. And how God himself intervened and was so angry at Moses brother and sister, for them feeling like they had the right to try to alienate this woman who was now part of their family through marriage, that he really reprimanded them. And Moses had to, like, calm God down. It's a cool story and just a reminder that, you know, that we. We get caught up in our world, even now, even in our modern world sometimes with these. These, you know, with racism, basically.

Right.

And it's so unfortunate, but how in marriage, how we're called to love, everyone is equal as a child of God, created in his image. But once someone marries into our family, that we love them instantly and accept them as our own blood, because that's God's design. And when it doesn't happen, like, in this case, it's so hard. So, Chanel, how did you navigate that? A feeling rejected? Because, I mean, that's hard. I mean, I felt some of that for different reasons, you know, when we were first married. But this is a different level, what you're experiencing. And so just talk us through what those early days were like.

Yeah, yeah.

So those early days were really difficult because we met each other in high school, and so we literally grew up together. And so navigating this in high school, my first response was, okay, I'm running away. See you later. You know, there's other fish in the sea.

But you did dump me.

I did.

She broke up in the pool.

I was like, I'm dealing with this. But the Holy Spirit just kept prompting me, just love them. Just love them and keep pursuing them. And, you know, in the beginning, I did it wrong. I remember getting into arguments and on MySpace when MySpace was a thing, and, like, trying to prove to them that their thought processes were wrong and things like that. And I remember the Holy Spirit said, I was in college, and he said, hey, Chanel, I want you to start praying for your in laws every day at seven o'.

Clock. Wow.

And I. At first, you know, my prayer was like, God, strike them dead. Like, it was just out of. But then it was like, God just started giving me a heart for them. Like, chanel, I want you to see them the way that I see them. I want you to love them the way that I love them. And started. And I really started having compassion for them and just serving them and loving that. And, you know, it didn't mean that things happened perfectly over the years because it was. I mean, we went probably a decade without talking to family and being isolated and very hurt. But it's just holding onto that, just praying for them, not trying to change them, not trying to prove to them, not trying to be anything but Just to love them and allowing the Holy Spirit to use myself to bring healing in a traumatic situation for them. But it was difficult. I mean, it was. I think about those days. I'm like, what in the world? I mean, it was hard.

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I can't imagine. And I'm sure that, Eric, you probably felt a little bit stuck in the middle. I mean, is that. Is that how you felt? I'd love to hear kind of your side of how that. That 10 years of it not going so well. How that felt for you.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah. I mean, on one end, you know, I mean, I grew up and it's like, honor your father and mother. And I'm doing something that is different than their wishes. And so I kind of had to come to this point where I'm like, okay, I'm going to honor my father and mother for the role that they have, the good things that they've done, and I'm going to honor my family. But at the same time, man, this is. God says, this is good that I found a woman that loves the Lord. And so I kind of had to have that moment where, hey, I love you, but my commitment to what God's plan is for my life is greater. And I had to come to that point of maturity. I think the hardest part for me was protecting Chanel through that and just trying to navigate because I remember feeling racist. I told friends, hey, you can't date people the opposite of another race or another kind. I remember telling other people that growing up. And now here I am. God has done a miracle in my life, and I'm able to see the beauty in how God created Chanel. So to try to. There's that protector in me. Like, ooh, I don't know if you understand why they think the way this they think.

Yeah.

And so that was the hardest part for me. Seeing her go through that hurt.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, you know, when people write us who maybe are in your similar dynamic, one of the biggest things is when you do feel caught in the middle, almost like you each are fighting for your families of origin and for your culture of origin, it can really cause husband and wife to go against each other. And I think the fact that you both, like, were just very much in prayer. I mean, that. That's what I hear is just, like, staying in prayer so that we keep those soft hearts. You know, we don't allow the enemy to get a foothold and make us have hardened hearts, because that's when you start turning on each other. But I would love to hear what else. And also protecting. Like you said, protecting Chanel, making sure that. That she's not being mistreated, you know, by your family and. And, you know, all of that. But I would love to hear what else, because 10 years is a long time. I mean, that's a long time. That's a long time to struggle with these relationships. What else did you do during that time that you feel like, really helped you to not. To not be like, you know what? This is just too hard. Like, maybe we're not meant to be. Like, because I think that sometimes people get to that crossroad. What kind of helped you to stay close together?

Yeah, I think, like, for first of all, like, at first, there was that kind of, like, hard tension. Like, man, maybe this is not meant to be. But I think for a season, we had to kind of leave and cleave. Like, there was a season where we had to kind of, like, separate ourselves from my family of origin so that we could become an us, so that we could kind of figure out who we are in the world, get that confidence, then to reengage with my family, once we had mental emotional health, and we understood kind of a little better what we're dealing with. And so, yeah, it was, you know, starting from before our wedding until close to a decade, we had family members that weren't a part of our wedding, and that was hard to go through, but it did allow us to cleave to each other and trust each other and build strength in our relationship.

First, I think for me, I just had to continuously just say, father, forgive them. They don't know what they did. Father, forgive them. They don't know what they like over and over and over again and get to the point of health where I'm not expecting anything from them. I think for me, you know, every person going into a relationship, you're like, oh, I watched all the movies, all the homework. They're gonna embrace me. They're gonna love me. And, you know, that wasn't the case for us. I mean, Eric was disowned. We weren't invited to holidays. And, I mean, like, he had said, people didn't show up to our weddings. It was very difficult thing to navigate. And, you know, here we are. We were talking about having kids at the time, and I think it's just continuously knowing what the Lord's called you. Like, if you. You have to keep that in the format. Like, has the Lord called us? What has the Lord called us to do? And just being in prayer and not expecting them to do anything. Not expecting them to. To change. I. Expecting them to accept it, but say, hey, I'm going to love and honor you because you are my husband's family. And because this is, you know, I. And I loved in your guys's book. I. I was telling someone this week, I wish I would have had your book 10 years ago, because it would have been, like, so therapeutic for me walking through this. But just loving them. Just loving them where they're at and just repeat appreciating, hey, I am marrying into this family. That doesn't mean I'm gonna agree with everything in your family, but I can choose to honor and respect and love your family because they created the man that I'm married to, and that's just honor as well.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think for a while, I was a little idealistic. Like, hey, maybe we just don't have to have a close relationship with my family. Like, maybe we can just do our own thing. But then once kids came into the picture, they're. Our kids are gonna ask questions someday, so we just need to have the hard conversations now. And so that way, maybe there can be a sense of honor and respect for differing opinions and values that we have.

Yeah, you guys have been so wise. I mean, I'm just inspired, really. I mean, inspired by the way that you two have handled this. And it's such a wise and godly path that you took. You know, the prayers you were praying, you know, Chanel praying like, lord, forgive him, you know, and that's not. That's not only helping them through prayer, but really it's protecting your own hearts. It's helping you to not grow bitter. It's helping you to stay, you know, stay tenderhearted toward God, toward each other, toward each other's families. And that's. That's a great path to follow. If somebody's listening out there and they're stuck, and maybe you feel rejected by your family or your spouse's family, and it's so easy to feel anger, to feel bitterness, and those are natural feelings. But I would just encourage you to follow the wise and biblical path that Eric and Chanel have done here, because it's going to protect your own heart. It's going to help you from growing anger, angry, and bitter. It's going to help you stay in that place that God wants you. And. Yeah. So, like, fast forwarding a little bit. Like when you had those conversations, how did that go when you were like, all right, we got to move forward and try to pursue a relationship with him and see if that's possible. What did that look like? Yeah.

Yeah. I remember the first Christmas we got invited to. And, you know, after 10 years, this is the first Christmas. And it all started with a birthday party that happened three months prior. And it was us saying, hey, we. Because we had spent the first 10 years trying to prove. Trying to get them to change. And finally, you know, we're like, okay, Lord, what we're doing is not working. You know, they're not changing. We're like, nothing's happening. And so Eric's like, you know, I feel like the Holy Spirit is telling me to get a family member a gift for their birthday. Okay. And we just started off just loving them and just saying, hey, we love you. And this little gift, I think it wasn't even more than $20, but just that acknowledgement of, hey, we love you, regardless of the time that has passed, passed. And that just really opened the door. So then we got invited to Christmas. And I remember that Christmas being. And every conversation. Every conversation, it's like. And it's weird. It almost makes me, like. Because it. It wouldn't have happened, actually. It was honestly the Holy Spirit, because we got to that Christmas, and I remember hugging your family and them just crying and, wow, it was like, I. I missed you. I. I love you. Hey, let's be family again. And I think in honesty, when we change that approach. And that was the first. The first door opening, and we had tough conversations after that, you know, But I think it was just that first initial thing is, hey, I'm gonna love you. I'm just gonna love you, and I'm gonna honor you regardless of what you said, regardless of what you've done, I'm gonna love you. And that opened the door for hearts to be open, for hard conversations to be had, honest conversations to be had, and disrespecting what they've gone through and the trauma that they've endured and why they come to their ideologies on racism.

For sure. I think, you know, for me, like, one thing that I want to do is protect Chanel from all the hard conversations that need to have, but I realized they were kind of necessary, and I had to lean in for the first 10 years. Let's say we're trying to prove, like, no, this is good. Look, we're doing it. God's blessing, our marriage. Things are going really good. But then I realized, okay, really, there's some feelings there. And so we leaned in and we listened. And they were hard stories to hear because there may be the opinions or the views or the values were different. And so Chanel just had the courage to say, hey, I'm going to listen to why you feel differently, and I'm going to not get into this arguing match or trying to tell you what God's word says or other things, but I'm just going to try to have an empathy to understand why you think differently than me. And then from that, we just said, okay, hey, we can understand that you feel differently about this, but for us to have a really good relationship, we need to honor that difference. And maybe it's not best that we're bringing up the topic of race all the time. It's not the number one issue, or especially with our kids coming, hey, like, maybe. Maybe this isn't the time and place around our kids to bring up those kind of topics. So.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And what I hear you saying is like, being willing to hear each other out, but also being willing to say, okay, now we've heard each other, and there's certain boundaries that we need to have in place in order to have a civil relationship. And because we may not ever see completely eye to eye, and that's okay, but can we still respect each other? And, you know, and you all. I mean, you threw out a big olive branch by. By giving that gift and just. And it pierced. It literally pierced their hearts. Like, it's just such a beautiful image of when you. When you did come together that Christmas, that first Christmas, after all this time and then weeping, it just shows you how much I think, you know, they had been hurting in their own way, too. Even though I know it. Like, you understand what I'm saying here, like, I think that they. Even though they had all these opinions, they really wanted that too. They didn't know the way to get there. And I feel like you all were so wise in opening it up, because it always takes one or two people, you know, to come in and be the first. Somebody has to be the first.

You're willing to go first. Yeah.

And you all, even though you're.

Even if you're the one that's been wrong. Yeah.

And you're the one wrong.

We're the ones who are wrong.

Yeah.

But still being willing to go first.

And it's huge because it takes someone saying, like, we're going to put it out there. We're going to. We're going to say, like, listen, we love you. And I just, I feel like when you, Even if you have all these differences and you've been wronged, when something is done in love and even having these hard conversations in love, that's where God. It's like the Holy Spirit is right there, you know? And I mean, clearly in your story, you can sense, I mean, God just doing the miraculous here.

Yeah.

And like you said, it's not perfect. I'd love to hear. I mean, so you've gone through these steps and kind of, you know, where are you today? How is it now, like, currently, how are the relationships?

Yeah. You know, and it was so funny as we were preparing for this, it was like God just wanted to do even more healing in our hearts. And like I said, it's not a perfect. It's a journey. It's a journey that we can keep taking on. And I remember, like, there was this family tension even before we came on here. And we were again in that place where we're like, okay, we're just, we're done. We're. We're just gonna set harder boundaries. We're just not gonna have a relationship. And the Holy Spirit had to remind us, no, this is a lean in moment. Like, this is a lean in. And have tough conversations of love and hear them, even if you may not agree. Anytime I feel like there is an election year, there's always like this tension around Thanksgiving or, you know, Thanksgiving. I mean, the Holy Spirit was just saying, hey, Chanel, I'm calling to a level of maturity. Avoiding is not mature. You have to have those conversations. Just like in your marriage, you have to have conversations because you're not always going to see eye to eye. And so we just, we created super faith and time to hear them when they have hurts, when they say things out. And we have two choices. When things get said incorrectly or racial slurs get spoken. It's either just cover them in grace and realize that, hey, they aren't trying to hurt me. They aren't. They're just being human. And I get to a point where I say, you know what? It's not your fault, Chanel. It's not their fault. It's sin's fault.

Yeah.

And let's name, you know, the person, you know, let's name the issue what it is, but it's giving them grace. Or if you feel inclined, have a tough conversation or ask a question, say, hey, you said this. It kind of rubbed me the wrong way. What did you mean by that? And most of the time I realized my own self is I'm most of the time wrong. Like, I'll ask them, like, hey, you said this. And it kind of came across this way. What did you mean? And they're like, oh, I'm so sorry. I just. I didn't even mean to say that. It's just a part of, you know, their 40 plus years of just saying things like that. And so we are in such a better place now. We have three boys who his family has just embraced with so much love and compassion. And they. I mean it. I remember the Lord telling me when we first got together, like, the Lord's gonna change this one specific family member's heart. And his family looked at me and said, you're wrong. That's not gonna happen. To see that now, to see the Holy Spirit work through that family member and how much they embrace our children, and that was our biggest fear is, how are they gonna embrace our children one day is. I mean, I would. And this is scary to say this, I would go through everything we went through those 10 years to see these family members not only love our children, but have a authentic relationship with the Lord now.

Wow.

I would do it all over again because it's just so rich. It's. That's the greatest. We're literally living in the best gift we could have ever imagined.

That's amazing. I mean, that's.

Yeah, it's not easy. Like, I don't think. I think you think there's going to be somewhere over the rainbow moment with family. Like, eventually we're gonna get to this, like, and it's just gonna be perfect. No more conflict.

Yeah.

That'S how it works. I think what happens is you just get better at it. You develop a greater sense of mercy, of understanding, of grace. You have this willingness to say, hey, you know what? Last time it was 10 years. Hey, maybe this time it's gonna be 10 days. You know, we're gonna shorten the amount of time that we're holding grudges or ignoring each other other because of hurtful things that were exchanged. And I think the conversations, I don't know if they've gotten easier, but we've just gotten better. And I think a phrase that's always been there is just whenever there's hurt, love them anyway. Love them anyway when. When something said that's kind of a little bit different than what we've come to learn. God's way is it's love him anyway. And I think love covers that multitude. It really does. And, and it's not always easy, but I think we've developed that love muscle through this.

So.

Well said, man.

You two are an inspiration. I mean, and for all you all listening, I hope that you've been leaning in because Eric and Chanel have followed just an amazing path of healing and forgiveness and redemption and wisdom and strength. And it's one that you can follow too. And maybe your situation isn't exactly like theirs, but all of us have areas in our life where we have to, we have to choose grace or we have to apply some of these principles that they've applied that have allowed to make healing, healing possible. And it's been a journey. And so, guys, this has been just one of the most helpful conversations I believe we've ever even hosted on here. But before we let you go, let people know, like, where they can connect with you if they, if they've got questions or if they're, if they're going through maybe something similar and want to follow up and maybe send you an email or connect with you on social media or whatever, let folks know where that could happen.

Yes, absolutely. And so right now we, you know, are in the midst of kind of asking the Lord where he. How he wants us to share our story. And so right now you can connect with us. We kind of just share Instagram so you can connect with me at Chanel Penn on Facebook or Instagram. And I would just love just to be an encouraging person to tell you, just to keep going, keep going. Like there is something just so rich. If you just press in and keep going, we, you know, anything we can do just to help people, I think that's the best way. Or in fact, me on email at. I think it's cmben11gmail.com so nothing super professional, but we just want to be.

A hope for you, for sure. And if it's easy, you can connect with our church, Riverside Church in Three Rivers, Michigan. We'll get an email from. From you, I think. Just contact us if you're going through anything like this. We know it's hard. We know it's not easy, and we love to be an encouragement. Just give you some tips, some strength. We'll extend strength to you so you can get through it, too.

Wow. Well, I know people will be reaching out because I think one of the biggest things is hearing. Hearing a testimony that is real and raw, but full of hope. You know, people want. They lean in because they want to learn from you because you've been there. And so I'm sure they'll want to reach out. And I just appreciate y' all being willing to share your story and allowing people to reach out to you.

Thank you. Powerful. And thank you all for listening. And to the listeners and those watching this on YouTube, do us a favor and share this. I'm telling you, this is a conversation that needs to be shared. And I think, you know, some of the principles that. That Chanel and Chanel and Eric have talked about, they'll help not only marriages, but I think on a broader scale. With all the division and brokenness in the world right now, the way that they have given us a roadmap to have healthy, meaningful conversations with people of different perspectives, I think is. Is such a wise and Christian way to approach these important conversations. And so share this. Put it on your social media, text it to a friend. I know it's going to encourage them. And Eric and Chanel, we're praying for you guys and cheering you on and your three precious boys. And thank you again for being on the podcast.

Thank you so much. Thanks so much for having us. We appreciate what you guys are doing, and I can't say enough is your book has been. I just wish I would have had.

It for sure when we first started.

It has been so impactful for us. So thank you guys for all that you do.

Yeah.

Thank you guys so much.

Y' all are amazing. Thank you. And we will see you guys next time on the Naked Marriage podcast Test.