Sleep Divorce

Hey, guys. Welcome back to the Naked Marriage podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast we address the truth about sex, intimacy, and lifelong love. And we have a really interesting episode coming up for you. But before we get to that.

A.

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Well, I was watching a morning show this morning and actually it really got my attention because they entitled it sleeping and they had Dr. Oz on there and he was talking about how there's this epidemic of couples who are either not sleeping in the same room together or they're sleeping in almost like those 1950s sitcom rooms where they have like the two twin beds. Like that kind of dynamic.

Yeah, yeah. Which is so weird. Why were Lucy and seems so bizarre separately.

I know, but he said this has become like a thing and people are referring to it as sleep divorce because one or both spouses feel like they can't sleep well together. Like somebody's snoring or somebody moves a lot when they sleep or somebody gets really hot when they sleep. And the other, you know, wants maybe the bed to be, you know, softer or one wants the bed to be harder. You know, whatever the dynamic is, they're choosing just to not even sleep in the same bed or in the same room. And so we wanted to talk about that today because I think that there are a lot of things that can happen in the bedroom that can cause marriage problems that aren't even necessarily directly related to sex but are really related to, you know, your sleep dynamics.

It's so true. This is the first episode we've ever done on bedroom behaviors that aren't really about sex. But like Ashley said, there are so, so many dynamics that fit into, into that bedroom. The marriage bed is, is like this sacred, not only symbol, but this safe and sacred place for a husband and wife to reconnect, not only sexually, but, but in lots of different ways.

It's intimacy.

It's intimacy. Right. There's something powerful about that. And so like growing up, something that really stood out about my parents, mom and dad, if you're listening. Hey, love you guys. And they had and still have a wonderful marriage and really set. Set a great example that I wanted to follow someday. They did kind of gross me out a lot by, you know, how affectionate they were with each other. And those are stories for another time. But dad worked at, at a car factory where he had to get up super early in the morning. So he woke up at like 3:30 or 4 in the morning. Like Amish people weren't even awake yet to milk the cows. And my dad was already like up and ready. And so he had to go to bed pretty early to just maintain that schedule. He worked really hard to provide for us. Now mom is a night owl. So mom, like, she could stay up easily till midnight every night and be fine. And she got to wake up a little bit later as we kids were getting up. And so they could have fallen into this trap, this kind of sleep divorce thing where it's just, well, dad has to go to bed early and that's just the way that it is. But something they did that stood out to me even from a very, very young age. And I think that it was little things like this that was part of the sort of the secret sauce, so to speak, that made their marriage and still makes their marriage great is when he would go to bed early, even though she wasn't tired at all, she always went to bed with him and she would say, okay, well, your dad and I are going to bed, but I'll be back down in a little bit. And every single night. And like, I don't know what all was happening up there, you know, I mean, some, you know, some nights, yeah, the ceiling was probably shaken above us, but I think a lot of nights they were just talking. I think it was just being up there together, talking, maybe cuddling a little bit, ending the day together in the bed. And then like once, you know, once that moment was over or once, you know, he was asleep, she would come back downstairs and she'd be up for hours later. And I think, man, that is something that kind of sets a great marriage apart from a lot that aren't. So many couples, they would just say, well, this is just our flow. He's got to go to bed early. I'm a night owl. He's going to go do his thing. I'm going to be on my iPad, looking at Pinterest and watching my show in here. He's going to go to his room and he's going to do this, and we just retreat to separate places. And there's not that sacred special bedtime routine where we connect at the end of the day.

And it is so important. And your parents were wise beyond their years, even back in the 80s when they were making that a priority. And on the morning show that I was watching, Dr. Oz talked about this. He said, you may have, like, different flows to the day, like where one. One, you know, needs to go to bed early and one's a night owl, or you may, you know, have one that's more of a cuddler or one that. That snores. But he said, regardless of whatever the dynamic is, intimacy is more important. Intimacy in marriage is more important. And he even shared from his own marriage, he said his wife is very much a cuddler. And he's like, and I'm really not. And he said, but I will give her that. We talked about this, you know, on the podcast before. He said, I'll give her some time to cuddle because I. Even though that's not my preference, I care more about her and the intimacy of our relationship. And they've been married a very long time. And so, you know, I just feel like it's so cool that we're talking about this on national television shows because intimacy in marriage is important. And so when it comes to, you know, the bedroom behaviors, if intimacy is not top priority, then we're missing it.

Yes.

And so whatever it is that you're going through, we've just gotta make sure that we're coming back together. So if one of you does snore and it's making the other not able to sleep, and make sure you go get a sleep study done, find out what's causing the snoring, and do whatever you can to remedy that problem. If one really gets hot in the middle of the night, that's me. I get very hot. We bought a bed warmer mattress pad for our bed. Dave can heat up his side all he wants, and he loves it, you know, and so it's like we can find.

Yes, it's dual control.

It's dual control.

It's great.

It's great.

They make these pads where they can be cooling or heating.

It's amazing.

You can adjust each side of the bed to the exact comfort specifications and preferences to each spouse. So, like, whatever the excuse is, it's like there's some solution out there that removes that excuse, and I love that.

And it's just being willing to maybe come to a compromise, you know, where both people can get the Best sleep. But intimacy, again, is top priority. And, you know, in our dynamic, like Dave said, I mean, I'm a night owl. He likes to go to bed a little earlier than me. And he. You know what I do? I like to watch TV at night. I grew up with a TV in my bedroom. That's why I won't allow my kids to have a TV in their bedroom, because I'm obsessed at watching TV at night, and I hate that part of me. But it's like something that I do. And I'll put the TV down low. I'm not ready to go to bed yet. But he'll go to sleep, and I'll watch the Office or whatever for 15 minutes before I fall asleep.

Is they have a dark, cold cocoon.

Yes, we do make it dark and cold.

So I've never liked having the TV on at night, but I know that for Ashley, it's something that she kind of needs to.

You'd rather have me beside you?

And I told her that. She's like, I could go just watch tv.

No, I offered that.

Yes. And I said, I would rather have you in here with me with the TV on, even though the TV being on annoys me, but you being more important. And so marriage is like a million little things like that of just serving each other and stepping outside of your comfort zones. But when we just dig in our heels and say, no, this is my way. This is my preference, this is how it's going to be then really, we're practicing for divorce. We're just saying, like, my way is more important than our way. My way is more important than our intimacy. We've got to find a way to make it work together.

It's so true. And, you know, I know we said this isn't completely about sex, because it's not. We're talking about the other behaviors. But one big elephant in the room when it comes to this is if you are not sleeping in the same room or in the same bed, then. Then you're not going to have sex as often. And so this is something, too, that we can fall into this negative dynamic where if we have, like, separate bedrooms completely, we still have sexual needs. And so if we're not coming together and we're the only legitimate way to meet each other's sexual needs, and that can cause some really unhealthy behaviors.

Yeah, that's so true. Yeah. So you. If. I mean, that's just as practical as we can get, right? If you're not sleeping in the same bed, if you're not even in the bedroom at the same time with each other. Chances are there's not going to be as much frequency in sexual intimacy. And that's going to lead to a whole separate set of issues. So there are all kinds of benefits of, I think, you know, mom and dad, again, I think they did it right. Even if you're on completely different schedules, if there's any way you can at least go to bed at the same.

Time, just to have that time, have.

That time, make it, make it a special time to connect at the end of every day, even if you're not having sex again.

Intimacy is about the connection. It's about the conversations, even just holding each other. It's about just having a moment in the day where it's just the two of you.

It's so true. And about serving each other's needs. Again, you know, one of you likes to cuddle. Make some time to cuddle.

You gotta fill that cuddle tank.

You know, one of you has a higher, higher sex drive. You know, try to, try to meet that need. One of you has a higher need for communication. Then try to, you know, lay there and talk and meet that person's need. One of you, you know, again, God in his wisdom rarely puts two cuddlers in the same marriage. We talk about this a lot because all you would do is cuddle. So usually a marriage has one cuddler that's me, one non cuddler that's Ashley. But she works to meet that need for me.

And I want to show you a cuddle tank.

I want to hold you right now. I mean, I wish, I wish we were cuddling right this.

He probably does.

I really do.

But then he also respects my need for space, especially when I'm sleeping. And so again, it's all about compromise and serving each other and working towards intimacy and making that a top priority.

Yeah. And this will overflow into other aspects of the marriage, which I love, this bedroom behavior talk, this whole, like when you go to sleep and how much you cuddle and if you're there at the same time. This is just a nuanced part of a much bigger picture. And if you're doing this right and you think, well, this seems insignificant, this doesn't seem like a big thing. I think it's a big thing in itself. But even if you want to call it a little thing, a great marriage is made up of a million little things, little things. And you've got to be willing to give priority to those little things because the little Things in marriage make a big, big difference over time. And so, you know, you just, you just think if, if you have that extra 30 minutes a day together where there's communication, there's, there's intimacy in terms of your talking, there's potential intimacy sexually, but there's, you know, that 30 minutes a day that you're together because you were in bed together over time, the compounded time, that, that, that is over years and years of a marriage. That's huge. That's huge. And you're robbing yourself of that. If, if, if you're just saying, well, I'm going to sleep one place, he's going to sleep somewhere else. We've got different bedtimes, different interests. And yeah, you need to make this a priority. And for some of you, you're like, I can't even believe this is a thing. You know, we go to bed at the same time and this episode isn't even for us. And maybe that's great, maybe this particular episode isn't as much for you, but there are some people out there who, this could change your marriage. Like, this could potentially be the thing that saves your marriage because it puts you back on the path of really connecting.

It's so true. So don't have a sleep divorce. You want to be unified in every way and work towards intimacy when it comes to your bedtime routines every time. And I promise you, you will grow closer through that.

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All right, it is time for one of my favorite parts of the podcast. It is our Q and A section and thank you guys so much for sending in your questions to nakedmarriagepodcast.com you know, our producer Brittany goes through all of these and we even have a sheet where we go through these questions. We base some whole episodes on them because you guys are so amazing. You give amazing questions. But I just want you to know that we are reading these and we really appreciate you taking the time to send in these questions and we always pray about it and we want to do our very best to answer it and send you in the right direction for further resources. So here is today's question.

Yes, and thank you for those of you who follow us on Instagram at Dave and Ashley Willis or on Facebook and write to us there. We really love engaging with you on social media. We love meeting you at the live events.

It's our favorite.

Yeah, we love it.

We really, really are so encouraged by the communication.

So thank you for that. And we're going to dive into today's question and it is a good one.

Here it is. Has been married for 16 years. I love my wife with all my heart. There is. There is not. I wouldn't, there's nothing I wouldn't do for her. Need some advice on how to gently, very gently talk to her about our boring sex life. She is very conservative. I don't think he's talking about politics there. She is very conservative and I would never push her to do something she doesn't want to do. But the same old, same old is getting boring. She's rarely denied me, but everything has to be so, so no lights, no distractions, no novelty. It's like mercy sex. We are about once a week on making love. I would stay with her even if there was no sex. I want to give her sex worth wanting and have her return back to me. The same God has put us together and she is a blessing to our family. Just don't think she realizes how important this is to me. Any advice or direction would be appreciated on how to approach this and, and how to bridge our sexual gaps and differences. Thanks and God bless for what you guys are doing.

Man, that is a good question.

It is.

I hear this a lot of times. Not always. It usually is from the man, but not always. This is not a gender specific issue about not only wanting more frequency but wanting more variety, more adventure. And her possibly being raised to think that maybe she was raised in like this, this really kind of restrictive environment where sex was.

Maybe it's a bad thing. I mean, like, it's negative, talked about.

As negative, or just something that we don't speak of, something we don't enjoy. And some people, sadly, are brought up in these rigid environments where people who say they believe the Bible are teaching a really unbiblical approach to sex. Because God made sex to be a gift and an adventure and. And I mean, read Song of Solomon.

I was just gonna say read Song of Solomon.

There's some steamy, steamy stuff in there. But for whatever reason, whether it's an insecurity about maybe her own body or appearance in that intimate place, or maybe it's how she was brought up, the baggage there. And then this guy's like, and I don't wanna push her or make her feel more insecure by making her feel like I'm not satisfied with her. Cause I love her and I'm crazy attracted to her. I just want. I want our sex life to be free and awesome and. So, sweetie, what are some of your, your thoughts?

No, I do think it's very delicate. And he clearly recognizes that he wrote very gently. I mean, he knows it's a gentle issue because, you know, with her already feeling like sex is a restrictive thing and she may even deepen her heart because of how she was raised, may feel like she's doing a bad thing. And so she's overcoming that every time and that, you know, switch hasn't been flipped, so to speak, and thinking, okay, well, sex is good. It was designed for marriage. Maybe she's not quite there yet. So this might be a more deep rooted issue. And so kind of my first thing would be, you know, keep on talking to her about it very gently, but also, you know, just keep on reassuring her how much you love her and that you would never do anything to make her feel uncomfortable and you never want to do anything to make her feel uncomfortable. But that sex is something that God designed for the two of you. You know, he designed for the husband and the wife and that there is freedom in that. And if you guys. I mean, I just. When Dave said read the book of Song of Solomon, I was even thinking maybe the two of you should read the book of Song of Solomon. I don't know. It's not one that's necessarily taught in the youth groups, so I don't know if, if she's, you know, ever read it. I mean, it was something I didn't Discover until I was in my 20s. And so it'll definitely open your eyes to the passion that a husband and wife can have for each other and how sex is something that is supposed to be fun and free and enjoyable. And so I think, you know, there's. There's probably part of her in her mind where she's having a hard time overcoming that, but I do think, you know, be willing to ask her what she likes. I don't know if he's kind of come from that standpoint, but I know he has certain things he's wanting to do, like, maybe different positions to try. But if he could start with, like, what can I do that I think you would really like, you know, that. That you would enjoy that kind of. That you'd feel comfortable with and starting the conversation there. Because I think before we ask for something, it's always better to offer something when it comes to marriage. And so if you can say, you know, hey, you know, what would you like me to do that I'm not doing, maybe that would open up the conversation.

And don't just have those conversations in the moment.

Right. Not in the moment.

Create all this, you know, stress and.

Awkwardness in a private area.

Yeah. Talk about it over lunch, talk about it over breakfast, and make it a normal thing that you talk about any part of your marriage so there's not.

Pressure attached to it.

Yeah. To be able to just say any part of your marriage, you should be able to talk about freely with each other. And if you are listening to this and you grew up in this kind of restrictive. And sadly, a lot of times it happens in people who mean well in trying to raise. To have a Christian worldview that. But a Christian worldview is not to have a lame sex life in marriage. Now, outside of marriage, we shouldn't. We shouldn't be having sex.

It's not. You know, it's meant for marriage. Sex is meant for marriage.

But in marriage, you know, people following God's plan, Christian people within a monogamous covenant of marriage should be having the best sex on the planet.

Right.

On the planet. And that's why in our naked marriage book and the live events we do and articles we write, we come back to this message over and over again that God has freed you to be able to enjoy that freedom and enjoy each other. And if you grew up, you know, somebody asked this one time, like it was a legitimate question for them, they said, is anything other than the missionary position a sin? And I. And I'm like, where do we even come up with. And I thought, like, I'm not even.

Sure why it's called the missionary position.

Right. Well, we always joke that it must have been these two missionaries, like, you know, Ebenezer and Eliza. Yes. Ebenezer is like, Eliza, let's henceforth call our form of copulation name it after us. Because God's intended form of sexual intercourse is the man on top. The only way we should ever do it, and we'll name it after us. The missionary position. Yes. And maybe that's how it started. I don't know. But the missionary position is one that has many positions, like a guy being on top. It's not in the Bible. The Bible does not list out sex positions other than in Song of Solomon. When you look at what they're actually referring to, you know, and most biblical scholars agree on this, that the poetry they're using is. Is actually a vivid description of different sexual positions, including oral sex. And there's, you know, a lot that they're talking about kind of within the. Within the code of poetry. But other than that, the Bible isn't addressing specific sexual positions at all, other than to really give a lot of freedom. You know, the marriage bed should be kept pure by all the Bible says. But that's not referring to having a boring sex life. That's referring to not bringing other people into it.

Right.

Virtually the other person.

So don't. Don't think watching porn is a good way to spice things up and learn new things and don't, you know, obviously bring another person in. These things are just so far out of bounds and out of what God intended. But between a husband and wife with mutual consent, there is just a ton of freedom. There's a ton of freedom. And so I like this husband's approach of saying, you know, I love her no matter what. I'd love her and be committed to her even if there was no sex at all. And I don't want to hurt her feelings. You can tell that he's, like, sensitive to the fact that he doesn't want her to feel inadequate in any way. But listen, if you're listening to this, you're a husband or a wife, don't feel, like, inadequate, and also don't feel like certain things are going to be off limits right out of the gate. But really talk to your spouse about, you know, how would you feel more connected to me? What could make our sex life even hotter, even more enjoyable? And to just talk about it in a normal, healthy way, just like you would talk about what would make our communication better. What would make our date nights better, what would make our financial plan better. In every part of your marriage, it's good and healthy to talk about how to make it better. And if there are certain parts of your marriage, whether it's your sex life or something else, where it's like, this is just how it's going to be, we're never going to talk about how to make it better. And I'll be offended if you bring it up. Then that is. That in itself is an unhealthy approach.

Absolutely. You know, there's actually. There is a study by a woman, I think her name is Sharon. And if you look up Proverbs 31, it's through the Proverbs 31 ministry.

But.

But she did a study about the book of Song of Solomon. And I believe this study is actually for women. It might be something that your wife might wanna read. And it's not just like, oh, here's a book that will make you wanna be more adventurous. But it really goes through, you know, how God designed sex to be more passionate. And, you know, I just think that might be a good resource to look up. I wish I knew the title of it right off the tip of my tongue. But if you look up Song of Solomon's study, there's not that many of them out there. You'll find it. But, you know, it would be good just to kind of remind her that she's not going outside of God's will. I think that really, just in what he's described in her upbringing, it's getting over that thought process of what she is doing is bad. And I think, you know, it takes time. It takes time to let go of old ways of thinking and so give her some time. And I can tell clearly this is a husband who loves his wife, who wants to give her the time and space to kind of come around to thinking about being a little more adventurous. But I would continue to pray about it. I mean, definitely pray about your sex life. People always, whenever I've mentioned this, they're like, we pray about our sex life. I'm like, well, absolutely. I mean, God made it. You're married. He wants you to be having it. He wants you to be enjoying it. So pray about it and just, you know, pray together for it. I mean, pray about it together. That may seem like the oddest thing, but I promise you that God moves in those ways as well. And so definitely keep praying about it and keep on going towards her gently. You know, when it comes to this subject, but I definitely would keep talking about it and, and open up. And maybe, I don't know, it said something about the lights, like, how she doesn't like lights on. So I don't know if that is, like, maybe a physical, you know, issue where she doesn't want to be seen. But, you know, there's something about lingerie that can make a woman feel really sexy. But I would also ask her, like, what makes you feel sexy? Is it the way I approach you?

That's a good question.

Is it the way I talk to you? Is it. Is it how you feel about your own body? Like, when you're wearing lingerie or not wearing anything? Like, what is it that makes you feel more inclined to enjoy sex? And just keep that. Keep that conversation going, man.

That is good, good stuff. And thank you for that question. Such a good, honest.

I know. I love it. And there's probably a lot of people who have the exact same question, so thank you for asking it, man.

That's good stuff. So, guys, hey, that's our time for today, but you can write to us questions, both questions we answer on air@nakedmarriagepodcast.com or questions we can maybe answer specifically to you through social media. You find us Dave and Ashley Willis. Thanks to the whole team at Marriage Today that makes this possible, the ministry we're a part of. You can find out more of our Marriage today resources@marriagetoday.com and please subscribe to this podcast and let us know what topics you would like to hear you act. This podcast is for you. It is for your marriage. And so thank you for spreading the word and thank you for leaving reviews because it helps other people discover this. But we also want to know what is going to help your marriage. And so let us know what topics you'd like to hear and you might be a part of inspiring a future episode.

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