Strengthening Your Marriage Through Honest Conversations

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Hey, friends, welcome back to the Naked Marriage podcast. We're Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast, we undress the truth about sex, intimacy and lifelong love. And today we're continuing our conversation on burnout. I had a great conversation last week. I encourage you to go back and listen to part one of this burnout series last week. I think it would be a great encouragement to you and it really sets the stage for what we're talking about today, which is how to avoid and prevent burnout and then how to really communicate with your spouse about it once it's there. You know, just being honest and taking that honest self assessment, like, hey, this is where we are. If, if you've got any feedback for us, if you, if you want to add any insights, what we're talking about, easiest way to communicate with us is on Instagram. We're aveandashleywillis on Instagram. Or you can also leave comments on these videos on our YouTube channel. Most folks listen to this podcast, but you can also watch them on the Dave and Ashley Willis YouTube channel and leave comments there and be part of the conversation there as well. So, sweetie, week two, burnout. Yes.

Man, I, I am glad we're having this conversation because I do think it's something that's not talked about enough but is so prevalent kind of in our culture, especially today. And so I want to start by talking about, you know, we talked all about, like, the signs and things like that. Let's start off by, you know, let's say last week you listen, maybe you had your spouse listen, hopefully. And you guys are kind of at the state where at least one of you is like, yes, I'm burnout. Like, I'm in a burnout season. How do we open up that conversation? Because communication is key in this. And you know, I'm of the firm belief too, that communication, especially when it comes to marriage, is. That is a huge part of our healing process. And, you know, even if it's just one of you who knows that you're in a burnout season, it doesn't mean that only you need to handle this, this burnout season that you're going through, you know, as we always say in marriage, it's never his problem or her problem, it's always our problem. And so you need to bring your spouse into the picture. And odds are, you know, when you go to them and you say, listen, I. I think I'm in a burnout season, they're. They're not going to be shocked by that. They'll probably be like, oh, that makes sense. Like, you know, and. And don't be upset if they're like, oh, well, that's why you've been so tense or whatever, you know, like, it'll probably be a light bulb moment where they're like, oh, that make, you know, makes a lot of sense because you've just not been yourself. And I've been concerned, like, if it was something I'm doing or, you know, whatever it is, but I would just open it up by being honest in a loving way and saying, like, listen, I think I'm burnt out. Like, I'm trying to figure out exactly where I kind of got myself here, but I'm pretty sure, you know, I'm burnt out right now, and I just. I just want you to know about it. And here's kind of what I'm feeling, you know, when I'm feeling like I'm not getting enough rest, it's like I never have enough rest, and I feel like I'm just irritable all the time. I feel like even when you didn't do anything wrong, I'm kind of mad at you, and I don't like that feeling. And I really want. I want to move past this, you know, and so I'm going to have to make some adjustments in my life and maybe in our life. And I want to talk to you about that because, you know, one of the biggest things I feel like that causes burnout is that we overextend ourselves. And that usually has to do with our schedule. Like, we're committing to too many things. Yeah, we're taking on too many things. And I know that certainly led to my own burnout is like, there was too many things all at once. And so with that, it's not just a thing on our calendar that we have to attend, but that's another thing where you have to expend emotional energy and you have to give it your mental focus. And so you're just physically, mentally, emotionally tapped out. And so I think one thing, too, that often leads to us overextending ourselves when it comes to our time and our efforts is that we're trying to please people. And Dave and I, we've talked about this on here. We are, you know, recovering people pleasers.

We're recovering people pleasers. We are. And especially in ministry, it's like it's so easy to just feed that kind of people pleasing personality trait and to justify it. Like, no, this is just helping people. This is just serving people. But really people pleasing it can get in the way of us saying yes to God. Yeah, because like I think of it this way. Jesus lived the perfect life. God in the flesh. Everything that he did was the right thing. And yeah, he, he was available and helped people, but he was willing to disappoint people all the time. When you read the Gospels, there were all kinds of people that had an agenda for Jesus's life that were good things. No, Lord, stay longer and teach more over here. Stay longer. We want you to stay longer and heal all these folks over here. And over and over he would say, no, no, that's not what I'm doing. I need to go on to this next place or I need to pull away and reconnect with the Father and just have some alone time, or I need to spend some time with my disciples. And he was not afraid to disappoint people. And knowing he loved them so much, he was ultimately going to give his life for them. But even in that love, he didn't come to be a people pleaser, he came to be a people saver, but not a people pleaser. And I think that there's such freedom in his example of saying, you know, sometimes we're going to disappoint people. Sometimes we're going to have to say no to things that are good things just because we know I'm not superhuman and I don't have the capacity to do that and be at my best while still being at my best for my family. Because someone is going to pay for every decision we make. Someone's going to pay. It could be you paying with your own health and sanity. It could be your family paying with time that you should be spending with them and that you're giving to these other people, but someone's going to pay. And so we just have to keep that in mind with every decision because if we don't put healthy boundaries around our calendar, nobody will. Nobody will.

Yeah, so true.

So folks, and I've had to learn this the hard way, that folks aren't going to know. They're not going to, oh, they've already got too much going on. We're going to have to be the ones to say, you know, I just can't. I can't do that right now. You know, I had to just, gosh, just like a day or two ago, I had this guy who's, Who's a friend and does, you know, does marriage ministry. And he's kept wanting to get a call scheduled with all of us to talk, just talk about, like, ministry stuff. And I finally had to say, like, listen, we just can't do that right now. Like, we're for you guys. If you want to text us, I can answer some questions via text. But we're just. In this season, we're having to say no to most things. And he was very gracious. I'm sure he was disappointed. And it was awkward for me as a people pleaser to do that, but it was the right thing to do. And so I'm just saying give yourself permission to disappoint some folks in the name of having a healthier rhythm and being the best version of yourself with your family, with just your health overall.

And this is something we have. I mean, we're still in process.

Oh, yeah. We're not great at this.

Every fiber of our being. We're such people pleasers that it feels wrong, you know, but at the same time, I will tell you, it feels like relief too, because, I mean, even before you texted that precious couple, I mean, they're awesome, we talked about it and we really. Because we really care about these people. We're like, how do we say this in a loving way, but also put a boundary there because right now we need that. And. And then what you find too, is most of the time they'll. They'll come around and get it, you know, and it's. And sometimes even if they don't, that's between them and God. Like, especially if you're not. You're not, you know, outright wronging someone. It's not like you're being unkind and just trying to be mean or something. I mean, when you know in your heart that you're not doing something that is, you know, mean or cruel and wrong, it's nothing that's going against God, then it's between them and God. What's. What happens with that and how they do it.

Yeah.

And I think something that used to torment me that I think led to burnout all through my life, when I've had seasons of burnout is toiling over, oh, my gosh, what do they think about that? And hopefully they understand and like, you know what I'm saying? Like it just leads to anxiety.

That's between them and God.

It is. It's not our business.

It's not our business. Like what they think about. No, what. Anything really. It's like we have to make the, the best choice, right? With, you know, for, for us, for our family. And ultimately, no. Like everything you, you do is going to disappoint somebody. Like even, you know, saying no to a salesman whose only agenda is try to sell you something that's gonna disappoint them. But buying something that you can't afford just to make someone you don't even know smile cause they're getting a commission. I mean, that's a reckless way to live, right? So, yeah, you gotta be okay just saying no, I can't do that right now.

Like, that's not my best yes. I read a Lisa Turker's book years ago called the Best yes. And it really came at a time when I needed to know that. And I remember I shared it with you, some of the things I learned from that book. But it really helped me as a recovering people pleaser to really evaluate what's my best yes here. Like, I could give a yes. You can give a yes anytime. But what is my best yes? Because I don't want to just, you know, when you say yes to everything, your life is going to be chaotic. And so it really challenged me on that, you know, I want to share. Speaking of people pleasing, a Bible actually has a lot to say about this. And there's one verse in particular that I found in my burnout study that I shared with you last week that I found on youversion. You can go on the youversion Y ou version app, just look up burnout and you'll find this study. But one of the verses they shared, it really resonated with me and reminded me about how people pleasing is not of God. It's just not. And it's Galatians 1:10. It says this. Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Boom, man. That's.

I mean, that's the apostle Paul dropping.

Right there like, yes, who's our authority?

Who's our authority? Right.

People pleasing really in some ways is people worship. Oh, yeah, because it really is.

That's. That stinks. When. When you look, you're stepping on my toes, sweetie. But in a good way.

In a good way. Well, you have beautiful, manicured, precious toes. I don't want to mess up that, that beautiful paint job on those toes.

No, but I need it. I'm telling you, we hold each other accountable to this because this is something where we're similar but at different times we will, will be like, I think that people pleasing is flaring, flaring its head. You know what I'm saying? Like, we'll hold each other accountable in this because it isn't of God. And I think we have a culture that loves people pleasers. I mean, who doesn't?

Yeah.

What boss doesn't want, we call it eager beavers. Like, let's be eager beavers in the sense that we like, want to do our best job. But we can't just keep on trying to please the boss. We can't just keep on trying to even please our spouse. Like, even just trying to please our spouse is worshiping them in a way. And that's not what God calls us.

Yeah. Now we are called obviously to serve each other, to love each other necessarily.

Pleasing though, right?

But in the name of people pleasing some, there have been some marriage dynamics where a narcissistic or very self focused spouse has manipulated and twisted that to make the other spouse feel like their, their whole duty is to constantly just serve, serve, serve, serve and, and please.

Them and please make me happy.

And it creates this really toxic dynamic. And so, yeah, I mean, we should want, we should want to please our spouse. That's a good thing. But when we get on this treadmill of running frantically to try to do everything constantly just to not disappoint our spouse, then, then even that can get out of balance. Black Friday savings are here at the.

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Visit burlington.com coats for details. It can. And maybe that's why you feel burnout. Like, maybe, you know, in listening to this and maybe having a time of prayer, you realize, like, wow, I've just been trying to please my spouse. Like, maybe, maybe your spouse has put some unrealistic expectations on you. And who knows, maybe they don't even realize they're putting that on you. Maybe they're not even trying to put that on you, but you. Because you're afraid you're going to lose them. I think sometimes, based on our backgrounds, how we were raised, maybe previous relationships, we can sometimes have a narrative in our mind, like, I don't want to lose them, so I've got to please them all the time. And. Or maybe that spouse is a bit narcissistic and they're trying, you know, they think that you're just there to please them and to meet their every need. And so you feel that and you're just, you know, running yourself ragged mentally, emotionally, and maybe even physically trying to please them all the time, that you just don't even. It suck the joy of life out of you. And it's also misplaced where, you know, where you're supposed to put your worship, and that's only to God, you know, only God receives our worship. Again, we are called to serve our spouse, but not in. In this kind of way that is unhealthy that we're describing. And so that's definitely something that you need to bring to your spouse and say, listen, I. I feel like I'm burnt out right now because I feel like I can never really please you enough.

Yeah.

And I don't know if that's coming from me or if it's coming from you, but I want to talk about it. That's a really calm way to say that, because you may not know yet. And that's where you both can pray and say, God, help us to really see. Like, take the blinders off and help us to see, you know, where our marriage dynamic is a bit unhealthy because God doesn't want you to live like that. I mean, that's a. That can create a really unhealthy, codependent dynamic as well, where one of you is feeding off that and the other is constantly, like, trying to. To make that person happy. And it's. It's just not how we're called to be in marriage.

No. No.

And it definitely will burn you out. It definitely will burn you out.

Gosh, that will. That will burn you out. And if you feel like you are in a dynamic like that where there's just this, this unhealthy disconnection between reality and the expectations or communication issues in marriage. Want to quickly provide a couple resources? First off, our ministry, Exomarriage has an aspect of the ministry called marriage mediation, which I think is maybe the single most important aspect of what this ministry does. It as a trained team of mediators, we've gone through the training ourselves. It's a powerful program. Can meet with you in person at the office in Dallas, Fort Worth area or virtually from anywhere in the world and take you through a full day or two full days, depending on your situation. And over that process, a very specific structured process, the breakthrough that you can experience to get on the same page and to work through some issues and to create a game plan moving forward. It really is potentially life changing. We've seen it transform marriages. We've seen it take people from the brink of divorce to a place of thriving and we want to share that with you. So if you go to xo marriage help exomarriage h e l p.com you can find out all about mediation or just our ministry's website, which is exomarriage.com you can get to it from there as well. So I encourage you to check that out. And I think that. Yeah, and if not that, you know, talk to a counselor in your area, talk to, to somebody about it. You don't have to figure this out on your own. Even Ashley, now that she's finished her biblical counseling degree, has a limited amount of help, you know, that she can give through like virtual sessions@ashleywillis.net yes. So you can check that out as well. But talk to somebody is the thing when you get stuck in this, this rhythm and the two of you just keep butting heads or you keep going through the same cycle. I found that really the only way, the only practical way to break out of it is to get an objective professional, outside third party voice to speak into the situation and help guide you through it. And that's biblical, that's practical, that's healthy. And so, you know, find that person.

That's right. And that really brings me to something that I want to point out. You know, last week Dave gave a little plug for a talk that we did at our home church, our beloved home church, Stephen's Creek Church. That's Stevens with a V if you want to look it up. Stevenscreekchurch.com where we did a talk on mental health. And I touched on something in that talk that I feel like I want to share on this episode because I think it will help you and your spouse to really talk through these three things that can often lead to burnout if not done well, but can also help you overcome burnout, which we're going to talk more about next week. But there's three major areas of your life that if you feel like you found yourself in burnout or you're maybe on the edge of falling into burnout, you know, this is something you need to consider. And I call it the three. The three Cs. So the first one is think about, what are you consuming? Like, on a daily basis, what are you consuming? And I think when you hear that word consume, you think food, which I am talking about that somewhat. But really, what are you consuming through all your senses? What are you eating? You know, are you eating right? Because, I mean, maybe you're feeling bad and feeling burnt out because you're going on fumes. Like, you're just living off caffeine and sugar. Or maybe you're, you know, drinking too much alcohol daily and you're just never really feeling good because you're never really getting good sleep and never really able to do the exercise that your body needs. You're never getting outside. Like, think about that. Like, am I. What am I consuming? Am I taking my vitamins? You know, am I. Am I drinking my water? I mean, things as simple as that can really affect how we feel. Also, think about, what are your eyes taking in? Like, what are you watching? Are you scrolling social media all the time? Are you constantly trying to find the next distraction? And I'm not just talking to you, I'm talking to me, too. Like, I've had to really evaluate these things. Like, what TV shows are you watching?

I know for sure they're listening to a great podcast.

It's a great podcast. Yeah, well, that we haven't talked about ears yet. So. So, like, what are you listening to? Are you listening to positive podcasts that pour into your life? Are you listening to podcasts that you know are just about, I don't know, pop culture, gossip, and it's just making you think about people that you're never. You'll never meet?

Well, and for you, it was, you know, true crime is all the rage.

And it is shows and podcasts.

We both like it. To be very frank, we like it.

I think you're a more recent fan.

I'm getting more into it. But we, Ashley went through a season where it was, like, constant true crime, and it was starting to Mess with her podcasts. Yeah, because you're listening to that much murder, it's gonna happen. And one day she was just acting like really stressed. And, and I said, how many funk? I said, how many murders have you listened to today? And it was kind of a laugh, but also a wake up moment of like, wow, you know, I'm consuming a lot of true but dark content and I need to balance that out. I need more worship music. I need more, more positive things coming, you know, coming in. And so we've both tried to be more aware of that because the most of the news we consume is negative news. Most of what the world just feeds us is junk food for our brain. And so when we can listen to Christian podcasts, when we can listen to worship music, when we can just turn off the noise and get out in nature and listen to the sounds of God's nature all around us, it's something that, it replenishes us. It restores and renews the mind.

And we need that.

We need that. Otherwise, if we're just consuming junk all the time, it's going to make an impact.

It just, it, it definitely does. I mean, when you asked me that question that day, it was kind of funny, but it was also very, a very true question that I needed to ponder. And it really caused me over the course of those following weeks to like, look at my cue for my podcast that I listen to on a daily basis or weekly basis. And, and there were a lot that I removed. I was like, I'm not going to listen to that one anymore. I have less true crime, true crime podcasts that I listen to now. And I have more positive podcasts. Some are faith based, some are just funny, just funny podcasts. Some are interesting. Like I'm kind of a nerd. So I listen to things like how I built this, like, about companies and how people built their companies. And I also, you know, I just, I don't know, I like, I like a wide variety. I'm an avid. I know we're podcasters, but we are big, big, you know, podcast listeners as well. And so when I'm on a walk, you know, I, I often, you know, I went through last year listening to a Bible podcast where in the, in within a year's time, I listened to the entire Bible and I thought that was really fruitful. You know, I love worship music. I love sometimes just turning it off, like you said, and just listening, you know, to the sounds of nature or just having silence. It's really nice and, and it really it just is something for recalibrating your spirit and. And just getting your mind and your heart on the right things, you know, I want. I. I talked about the five senses in consuming. Get outside. Like, what are you feeling? Like there's something called grounding that is kind of something that people are getting back to. This is something that is so, like, oh, yeah, of course that's helpful. But all grounding is. Is like literally taking off your shoes and your socks, walking onto the ground. Like, get on some grass, get on some sand, get on some soil, and like, literally spend time outdoors and for like 10 or 15 minutes, just be outside and be outside with your full skin touching the ground. Okay. That. There's literally, like, neuroscience behind, like, the benefits of this. Like, it's amazing what it can do for you, for your body, mind, and spirit. And so get outside and do that. Go garden. Like, getting in the soil is good for you. Just getting and feeling the natural elements of. Of the earth is. It's something so good for you. I mean, I remember years ago, we went to Estes Park, Colorado, and like, one of our favorite things we did was we took off our shoes and we got in the little river that was right there. And I remember feeling like just. I don't know, it did something for my. For my mind, body, and spirit. Do you remember that?

Yeah.

And I think you were even brave enough and you drank out of that because it was a very. It was a. Sorry. It was a moving stream where you were like, I'm going to Dr. Drink this water.

I don't know.

I hope that was okay. I mean, you're still. You're still alive, like 20 something years later. But. But there's something just so cool about getting in nature and feeling. Letting your body feel God's creation. It's. It's really great. And even. Even just touching, you know, your spouse, like, having. Having the. The coziness and the intimacy of, you know, just having the. The human touch, you know, with your spouse. So really think about what am I consuming. So that's the first C. The second C is the calendar. And this is such a big one. Like, what's on my calendar? Am I running myself, you know, ragged? Am I distracted and feeling burnt out because we're just so busy?

Yeah. The three C's calendar for me is the one that's most convicting, I think, because when you look at the calendar, it tells you what you value. It just. It's staring you right in the face. It's like, all right, these are the things I'm making time for. And so times are most precious commodity and I'm investing in these things. Is this the best use of the time? With what we're doing consistently, what we're putting on that, that recurring calendar that's so important, the special events we're allowing on the calendar, the travel we're allowing on the calendar. What is the calendar saying about, about us? Because how we're spending our time is going to have an amazing and immediate impact in our overall mental health.

And I'm telling you, sometimes the, the greatest thing you can do to relieve your burnout, to avoid your burnout even, is taking something off the calendar. Okay, now I will admit I am an introvert. And the older I get, the more introverted I get. I mean, I, I've always known I'm an introvert. Like, I was the kid that would put, you know, I was a very social person my entire life, very involved in like all kinds of clubs and I did marching band in high school.

Introverts love people.

Oh, I love people.

I think there's this misconception that like, extroverts love people. Introverts just don't love people. That's not at all what it is. It has to do with what recharges you.

Right.

Like are you recharged in a group or are you recharged alone? And would you prefer to be in a large group or would you, if you're going to interact, would you prefer in a large group to have a meaningful one on one on one conversation? It's those kinds of questions. It's not like loving people versus hating people. That's not it at all. Introverts, you know, tend to have, I mean, they can have the most meaningful relationships.

Friendships. Yeah.

So just I want to dispel that myth right off the bat because. Yeah, because you love people.

We love meeting people.

We love. You love ministering to people. You've got great and deep, meaningful friendships.

But our meet and greets are like my favorite thing to do. And hearing your stories at our events, you also need.

Both of us need a pretty significant amount of time alone to recharge.

We do. And like, so I knew even as a kid. I remember specifically in high school, my mom pointed it out because. And I'm so grateful my parents noticed this about me and also didn't make me feel bad about it because I'm pretty sure my mom is like a major extrovert. She, she denies it, but that woman is an extrovert. She extroverts very well. But. But I remember I would come home from school and I literally would go in my room with the door closed for, like, hours. I mean, I would say hi to my family, but they never made me feel bad about that. And even till this day, Dave knows that about me. I mean, you're. You're kind of an ambivert. You're a little bit of both. That is a thing.

Yeah. I can. Depending on the mood and the day. Like, I. I can. The older I get, I do think I've gotten more introverted.

Yes. And also with what we do, I feel like, because we extrovert a lot, I feel like that's why personal time, we're more introverted. But, like, you know, I still. Till this day, I'm an introvert. And even the other day, I was a little bit in a funk, and Dave was like, what do you need? I said, I. I think I just need some time alone. And I didn't mean that as a cut to you because sometimes time alone is literally being in the same room with you. But I'm just.

No, no, I totally get it. Never make your spouse feel guilty for having needs that are different than your needs. Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest marriage mistakes. People are like, well, I don't need sex that much, so you shouldn't. I don't need conversation that much, so you shouldn't. I don't need sleep that much. Usually, whatever it is that your spouse needs, help them have it to be at their best. Instead of feeling like your needs is the perfect needs. Everybody's needs to look just like yours. So when she needs. I know that she's her best. When she's able to, you know, to get out, have some time alone, listen to a podcast, get a snack, have a walk.

Well, we'll walk together most of the time. But, yeah, sometimes I do just need a snack. That's another thing I'm consuming. Sometimes you just need a snack. Like, your blood sugar's low. Have a snack. But, you know, when it comes to the calendar again and, like, the time, I think that sometimes we just don't allow ourselves to have the time that we need to feel replenished. And, like, I remember the other day when I was in the funk, you were like, what do you need? Hey, after we have this meeting, would you, you know, like to go on a drive? I got the kids. You go on a drive, and you have your moment. And it's just so sweet to me as. As Dave's wife, Like, to know he's not like, well, I mean, I'm fine. Like, why can't you just get it together? It was like, no, what can I do to give you that time? And that really means a lot to me. And you've always done that. And, and it's just, it's so sweet. And I try to do that for you as well. I'm like, what do you need? But I'm telling you, as an introvert, taking something off the calendar, I mean, there's memes about this sometimes is the greatest thing. Even though I love people, but taking something off, sometimes I'm giddy about it.

Well, and especially in these seasons, burnout and stress. Like, with so much happening, we've got four kids that are running all these stuff, and with travel schedule, a lot's going on. So when we can take something off the calendar, I feel weightlifted. Even if it's something small. Oh, there's one meeting I don't have to do. Oh, my gosh.

Like, I feel like a new man.

Yeah. So give yourself permission to. I mean, the biblical standard for this, I think, you know, it would be like pruning. Jesus talked a lot about, about when you prune stuff, it really helps growth. And pruning means cutting away good parts of a plant, healthy branches from a plant, cutting it away. Because you have to do that in order to create health and growth. And you have to prune your calendar a lot. We have to prune our calendar a lot. It's like, what are those recurring things that we got to end that we got to end it. It has to have an end date. We can't just keep adding. You have to, you have to take stuff off as well.

And a lot of times it's a not now. It's, it's not like an all out. No. I mean, there's some things. Maybe you do need to just have an all out. No, and never. Like, we don't want to ever do that. But for most things, I mean, they're probably good things that are on your calendar, and it's just too many too soon in this season. Just put it on the shelf. It's a not yet, it's a not right now. And I'm telling you, you'll feel so much freedom in that. All right, so we've already gone through two of the three C's we have. What are you consuming? What is on your calendar? And the third one is who is in your community? And let me tell you, this is a big one because Sometimes we're just feeling burnt out because we're with people that are burning us out. Like, maybe there's people that are wanting too much of our time or too much leadership in our life or speaking.

Negativity or just bringing drama.

Yes, yes. And I'm telling you, all those reasons can, can make certain people in our community, you know, whether they realize it or not, they can be a cause to burnout. And so what do we do with that is we bring in more people that are believers, that are going to pour into our life. We can pour into their life, but we also put boundaries in place with the people that are maybe not pouring into our life in a healthy way like that are trying to take up maybe too much space, so to speak, in our life. Like I said, leadership or just bringing drama. That isn't even something that we're called to deal with. This isn't even my problem. But you're making it my problem. And this isn't to say that there's not times where we have hard moments with people in our life. I mean, a lot of times it's people that we love that we might feel like are pulling us down. That doesn't mean you're going to cut them out of your life. But you can put boundaries in place that are saying, listen, no, I can't do that at this time on this day, maybe in two weeks, you're giving more space in between. Sometimes you need to put some space. Space in between. People who feel like you're at their beck and call, like, don't text back immediately. Okay.

And she's. And me, like, I, I tend to respond quickly to. And what happens. I love that if I respond quickly, then certain people will just respond more.

And more and more and more and more.

And Ashley's like, you got to give some space there. You can't let people feel like they've got 24. 7 access to you, or you're going to feel like you're on call constantly.

Yeah.

And then I do, and then I feel burned out. And so she's helped me with that. She's. Ashley is such a good and loyal friend to so many people. But there, there are certain folks in her life, and, you know, I can think of, of one recently where this person is a great friend, a kind person, but also every time that Ashley's ever around this person, that this, this, this lady is sharing. Negative. It's always negative.

Well, and she has gone through hard.

Stuff, and there has been hard stuff.

She's lost other friends over this.

But it's always negative. It's always negative with her marriage. It's always negative with. It's just with everything. It's like hanging out with Eeyore from Winnie the Pooh. It's just always negative and, and Ash and she. But this person, and I love her, a loving and kind, loyal person. And Ashley is, is that to her. But, but Ashley's had to put some kind of healthy boundaries in place because she knows when I get with this person, it's. It's going to be a lot of negativity and I want to listen and show empathy. But when you've been friends with somebody for years and years and every time you're with them, it's always negative. That's not just a tough season. They're going through some of that is like a mindset that, that isn't totally healthy.

Right.

And so you have to, you have to safeguard that. Like, listen, you know, we, you got to look for some positive. You have to look for some reasons to show gratitude and yeah, what you're going through is real stuff.

Oh, absolutely.

And I empathize with that. But if you've got those people in your life where it's always negative, you know, every conversation with them, it's going to be negative. You might have to lovingly pray for them from a distance, get with them a little bit less.

Right.

And that's not being cold hearted. That's. I think that's safeguarding your own heart.

Well, I remember just recently I talked to you because of this burnout season I've been in. And I just said, because I got a text from this friend and it immediately sent me a little bit like, because you knew, I just felt like the pressure and I was like, oh, you know, and, and it wasn't because I don't want to get with her or I don't want to. I love her. I truly have known her a long time. But I just said, I said, Dave, in this particular season, in this moment, I just, I don't have, I just don't have it. Like, I don't have the emotional energy at this particular moment, this week to, to, you know, be there in the way that I know she needs me in the season. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to give it a little bit more time. So I just, I said, you know, I need like two weeks and I can get together because I just knew I needed to pray up about it. I needed to have the emotional capacity because I don't want to be just this friend who's not really genuinely, you know, connecting with her. And so I think sometimes, and some of you, this may sound kind of harsh to some people, but I feel like you can. Most people can relate to this because I, you know, and I know I'm in the counseling space where. And Dave is. Even though Dave's not officially a counselor, he's a pastor. And we hear a lot of people's greatest moments, but we also hear, like, their hardest moments. And with that, it can be like burden on top of burden on top of burden, and it can wear on you over time. And that's why they say every pastor and counselor needs a counselor. And that is true. I mean, I just actually met with a fellow counselor friend of mine, and I feel like we always end up in a counseling session for each other because, you know, we're both bearing this weight. And I am honored to bear this weight. I'm honored and called, and I 100% know that. But with that, I have to have boundaries for myself. And sometimes it's. It ends up, you know, going even with my kids and saying, like, right now I can't, you know, if it's an emergency and it's a needed moment, obviously I'm going to engage in that moment. But even sometimes with our children, if I've just come off a really heavy counseling appointment, I'll say, you know what, can I go on a walk with you later and talk about that? Because I just need a moment to decompress from this really hard counseling appointment that I just had. And I think most people, you know, who know and love you will respect that. Now, if those people don't, and they, you know, then I would say you might have to. To be a little more direct about it. I mean, I think sometimes we, you know, people, if they don't get it, you have to be your own advocate and be a little more direct still in a loving way about it. But I think if we don't advocate for ourselves, I mean, my goodness, that's a fast track to burnout. In fact, a lot of these helping professions, like counseling, doctors, pastors, teachers, any kind of helping profession has a high burnout rate. And it's because a lot of times we don't put boundaries in place. We aren't our own advocates, and we can't help out of an empty place. Like, we can't. We can only give what we have. And so if we don't have, you know, like, our, Our, you know, our faith is Kind of dead right now because we're not praying because we're just so worn slap out. Or if we're, you know, not really tending to our own emotional health because we're constantly trying to give everybody else tips on their own emotional health. We're, we're not gonna, we're essentially gonna end up hurting someone. Not taking that time to invest in ourselves, in our own mental and emotional health. I mean, and I, I mean, we know this, right? And then we're going to hurt our marriage because we're not advocating. And so sometimes it takes even stepping away for a season. You caused me to do this. You said, you know what, you just finished your counseling program and your practicum. Don't jump right into counseling, people. So I took about six weeks.

Yeah.

And you know, and I was like, I'm taking a break.

It's only a few, it's only a few that you're doing right now. Very limited because we've got so much. We, we have, you know, our full time work with xo, which we love. We, we're raising four kids. There's just a lot going on. So anything we take on, in addition to that, it's, it's, it's eating away at the small margins already.

Well, we want to do well, like, you know, all of us, all of us want to do the things that God has called us to. Well, all the relationships, well, our marriage, our parenting, well, our jobs, well. And so I think sometimes we'll take something on because we feel like we have to for financial reasons, or maybe we're people pleasers or maybe there's some expectation somebody put on us or whatever it is. But I think we have to step back and really pray through and say, God, help me to know the right timing. Like, help me to know that. And I, I, you know, it's good too, to be there as a married couple for each other and say, you know, sometimes we need to, we need to listen to our spouse, especially when we are ourselves in a burnout season and take what they have to say to heart. Because I know, you know, in the midst of my hard burnout after my program, it's been really good to have you say, you need to take a rest day today. Like, I really think that would be helpful for you. Or, you know what, let's pause. I mean, I was talking to my mom and sister and mom was like, you know, I've never seen you, I've never seen you so burn out of my life over this, this time when I was going through the burnout and she's like, I really think you need to, you know, just be careful what you put on your calendar. I mean, even, you know, because she's my mom and she knows me and, and she's like, just, you know, this is. You're really tired, you're really burnout. Like, you take a moment and I think we need to listen to those people who know us well, who have our best interests at heart and just really, you know, allow them to speak that into us and then be an advocate for ourselves and for our families and our relationships and take the rest that we need.

Man, that's so good, guys. I hope that has encouraged you today. There's so much practical in there. Just starting with the three Cs.

Yeah.

If you really will focus in on that, you know, ask yourself, what am I consuming? What's on my calendar? Who's in my community? That alone. Yeah, that alone could be just a filter that you put decisions through that could make a life changing impact. Do us a favor, share this episode. I promise there are people in your life who need this reminder. There are so many people just silently struggling with burnout and with mental health issues and stress. And I think that this conversation could be meaningful to them. Thank you so much for being part of this. We'd love to hear from you guys. You can write us on Instagram. Aveandashleywillis. Check out the ministry's website, it's exomarriage.com and come to one of our live events. We've got some great ones coming up. Just hit the conferences tab on the website and we would love to meet you in person anytime. God bless. We'll see you soon.

Bye, guys.