Subtle Same Sex Attraction

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Welcome to the Naked Marriage podcast. We're Dave and Ashley Willis. On this podcast, we undress the truth about sex, intimacy, and lifelong love. And I just have great expectations for today's episode because today was one of those days where it just seemed like the devil was trying to distract us and discourage us every way possible. And usually when that happens, I just feel like, oh, something good's gonna happen.

That's right.

And something good's gonna happen today. Plus, Ashley's wearing her super cute, sexy hat.

I had somebody online tell me I look like, what's it? Indiana Jones. And I was like, thank you. Because he's awesome.

So, yeah, you're like a very feminine. Lovely version. No, I had some version of Indy.

They sent me a message because I wore this in a recent, like, headshot, and they sent me a message with a side by side, and I was like, I will take it.

You're the most adventurous.

I want to be like, Indiana.

So if you're only listening to this, you can go over to YouTube, find these episodes, and you can see this lovely hat and. And yeah, film producers. If you want to launch a female Indiana Jones franchise.

There we go.

Ashley would be an amazing casting choice.

I did get called Crocodile Dundee 2, and I was like, again, thank you.

Yeah.

So, yeah. All right, well, before we dive into today's episode, I want to share one of our new reviews. You guys have been awesome and leaving all kinds of reviews, and we thank you so much. The reason we like these reviews is not only because it gives us fuel to keep going, but. But really the best part of it is it helps others know and discover about this podcast. And so please keep on leaving them. It's a wonderful way to get the message out about how to have a stronger marriage. So our review today is from PLL's trick, and it's entitled wow, Five Stars. So thank you. And this person says, thank y' all so much for sharing your wisdom. Your podcast is helping me to become a better wife in order to have a better, stronger, and healthier marriage in the long run. I will be sharing this podcast with others. Well, thank you so much for sharing that review today. And it just, again, it gives us. It's like wind in our sails. So we really appreciate you all doing that.

Yeah, it means a lot. We've got a really important topic today, a delicate topic, but one we've never covered, and I'm excited to dive in. And then the question at the end of the Q and A, you're going to want to stick around for that. It's about what to do when. When my. It says, my spouse never initiates sex, and what do I do with that. And I think most marriages have had seasons where they've dealt with that. And we're going to dive. We're going to dive, and we're going to cover a lot today, and we're so excited that you're here. So let's dive in. This episode is unique in a lot of ways. I mean, I think all of our episodes are unique, but this one in particular for a couple reasons. Number one, if you've been listening, watching for any length of time, first off, thank you for being part of the naked marriage community. We love and appreciate you guys. You know that we end every episode with a Q and A. It's my favorite time in the episode. You guys send in questions, we read them on the air. We're going to do that at the end of this episode as well. But we're also going to start out the episode reading a question that came in because this is really what's prompted this whole episode. It inspired it. We've had several questions come in like this, but I want to read this one in particular because I think it just sets the stage for the conversation of a really delicate but important topic that doesn't get discussed enough. And with all these topics, Ashley and me, our goal is just to be a safe place to be able to have these conversations. And so I thank you for the brave woman who wrote us this question. Of course we're going to protect her identity, as we always do with the people who write us. But we want to share this because I do think that there are others in a similar situation or. Sweetie, do you want to read it?

Sure. All right. It says, my husband and I have been married for almost 11 years in a committed and generally healthy and happy marriage, I grew up steeped in the purity culture and learned at a young age to think badly of my body and to train my mind to never lust over or acknowledge attraction to men. Into my later teen years, as curiosity and desire for basic education about sex grew because I received none from my parents, I began to peek into porn, avoiding all images of men in order to remain pure. I sought out images of women just to try to gain an understanding of my own sexuality and what is, quote, normal for a woman's body and whatnot, because I totally shut out all thought and desire towards men. But I was open to learning about sex through images of women in a sexual context which brought on sexual arousal. I feel as though I've trained my mind to be attracted to the opposite sex or to not be attracted to the opposite sex. While I find my husband very handsome and attractive and want to enjoy intimacy with him, I have never felt any sexual physical arousal towards him. And this has made our sex life difficult. And I rarely experience pleasure during sex other than the enjoyment of the intimacy that we share. I've never desired to have sexual relations with a woman, but it has only been in that context, through pornography, that I've experienced any physical sexual reaction. How can I begin walking towards healing the unhealthy mindset that I trained myself into? It has also been very hard to talk with my husband about this since it is a painful thing to hear your spouse say that they are not sexually attracted to you. I want to honor, love and enjoy my husband in all the ways God has intended in marriage. But a big aspect is missing. I feel broken and yucky and only recently realized that there is hope for healing and moving forward on this. And I just want to say her last statement, saying that she just realized that there is hope for healing and moving forward on this just warms my heart. I'm glad that that's kind of where she is and it is the truth.

First off, thank you so much for sharing this. And there are a lot of folks that have this kind of baggage and then this kind of shame and doubt. And the most powerful sex organ we have is our mind, like our brain. That's where it all begins. And the images that we put in there, the thoughts that are put in there, the messages that we're taught to believe, especially at those young, impressionable ages. When she was growing up in a culture where parents and maybe others with good intentions were trying to steer her away from sexual sin. But what they actually did unintentionally, was they were part of sabotaging healthy sexual development. In terms of her own mindset, how she saw her body, which our bodies are a beautiful thing created in the image of God and meant to be within marriage, enjoyed naked and unashamed, straight out of the Bible. That's why we call this the Naked Marriage Podcast. God wants you and your marriage to be naked and unashamed. And we just want to have a conversation today to help get us back to that point for whatever baggage. If you're listening right now, you might think, well, I don't feel attracted to the same sex, but I think that some of the principles we're going to talk about today, really, whatever the specific hang up is, is going to be something to help you get back to that place of being naked and unashamed in your marriage. And it starts with rewinding the clock back to identifying those first lies that we were taught to believe.

Yes.

And then recognizing that those were lies even though they felt true and even though our brain grew to see is true. And now, because we believed it so much, it actually changes our feelings because our brain has that kind of power. And so she. She used words of talking about feeling yucky, feeling that, like her own body was something wrong, feeling like sexual desire was something wrong. And so we have to rewind the clock and say, what are those first lies that I was taught to believe? These are themes that we explore in great detail in our upcoming book, the Counterfeit Climax. I'm so excited to share the message of this book with you guys, because I feel like it could be a game changer that could revolutionize sexual health in your marriage and just in your own mind, individually, to work through some of this baggage. But it starts with identifying those lies and saying, what were those first things I were taught to believe about my body, about sex? And how can I kind of mentally go back to that point and start doing what the Bible calls In Romans, chapter 12, verse 2, the renewing of the mind, where I replace those lies with truth.

Exactly. And I think she identified kind of the first lie that she was believing that kind of led her to this exploration of pornography and trying to understand her body. And that was that her body is just naturally sinful. And I think, you know, like, that looking at your body as something sexual is just seeing kind of the sinful side of yourself automatically, because sex is just automatically sin. And I think that, you know, back in those days when your parents and your church were trying to teach Teach you about sexual morality. They were trying to help keep you chaste. But I think sometimes, you know, and believe me, we understand this. Like, we grew up in a time where this churches across America. This was kind of the push of the purity culture. And again, the aim was good. We have a whole episode on this if you want to listen more about kind of what purity culture is. So I won't belabor the point. But basically the aim was good, was to teach people that sex is for marriage and that we should do our very best to save ourselves for it. But I think, you know, pushing that and pushing that and saying, basically, shut yourself down until marriage, it kind of. I don't know, it kind of went so far as to make people think that, well, if for some reason you end up, you know, being tempted and end up having sex before marriage or maybe just messing around before marriage, then you should be so ashamed and you've totally blown it. And you'll never be able to, you know, you're not a virgin anymore. And it kind of like, sent those messages, right? And so it scared a lot of us. It scared a lot of us and it shamed a lot of us. And I think that's kind of where she's coming from. So she, as probably an adolescent, was wanting to remain chaste. So she sees, like, the sexual part of me is just bad, right? And that's a lie. The sexual part of me is bad.

And if attraction to men is where I'm gonna fall into sin, then, you.

Know, then I gotta cut that off.

Then I'm gonna learn about sex. It was like a natural desire and curiosity to learn that led her into seeking out what was ultimately lesbian porn. But she just wanted to understand her body. She wanted to understand how sex worked, but she thought that she was doing it in a safe way by keeping men out of it. Because she's like, there's no way that I'm going to be attracted to these people. I'm just trying to learn. This is a how to video for me, because I don't know where else.

I don't know what my body does sexually. Yeah, I think that's kind of what she was trying to say.

I can relate to some of this. And kind of the genesis of how I fell into porn really, at that same time period is was curiosity of, like, I didn't really know where to. Where to have honest conversations about all these things that I was feeling. And I wanted to explore more of what sex was. And of course, pornography is the ultimate counterfeit Climax. We talk a ton about this in the upcoming book in very specific ways, beyond even what we've ever shared on stage or here on the podcast, even though we've covered it from a lot of angles there as well. But I think for a lot of folks, porn begins with a genuine curiosity. It's not, not necessarily led there just specifically to lust and to masturbate and to self gratify and all that. Even though it ultimately leads there most of the time. It can begin just as like, I just, I want to know how this works. Like, I just want to kind of see a how to video of nothing else. Of course it's the very wrong place, the worst place you could go to do that, because what you're seeing is a distorted view of reality, a counterfeit view of what God created sex to be. That actually cheapens it and really warps our perspective. It definitely warps our perspective. I've lived that. You know, I won't just make this all about my story, but I've lived it. I know what porn can do to the brain. I've lived it. And there's neuroscience research that talks about that, that my experience certainly is not unique. But coming back to this very specific context of the subtle same sex attraction, I think that, you know, this woman and many, many others in our culture right now, they're having to face so many confusing messages about sexuality and specifically about same sex attraction within. Within sexuality, where if you feel even a tinge of sexual connection or interest in someone of the same sex, then there's. There's almost like this militant agenda out there that, that says you've got to label yourself, right?

Or at least you have to explore it.

You've got to explore it because that's probably who you are. If you even feel a tinge of that, you got to explore it. And then you got to identify with, you know, the LGBTQ community and say, that's, that's who I am. Because I'm questioning and I'm doubting and maybe because I have some of these feelings, that's really who I am. And I think that identifying ourselves in terms of. I think part of what is is just out of bounds with kind of that whole movement is that it's telling people that their very identity, almost like their very soul, is wrapped up in this one aspect of how they feel and who they're attracted to. When Jesus says our identity should be found in him alone, and if we're not finding our identity in him, if we're not finding the truth of who we are in him, then we're going to look for that counterfeit somewhere else. We're going to look for a born again experience somewhere else. And Jesus says, we're called to be born again, have a new birth, a new identity, but if we don't find it in him, the world's going to offer counterfeits where we can find it. And I think part of why there's been a huge rise in people coming out, so to speak, of saying, well, I'm this or I'm that or is because they're looking for that born again experience where they can feel part of a community. They can feel like they've got this complete change of nature that they can celebrate and find their true self. Those are things that are all meant to be accomplished first and foremost through Christ. And if we don't find it there, then we're going to be more susceptible to find it other places. But not to get too much on like a sidetrack of, of, you know.

Of sexual identity, of sexual identity.

And, you know, this is. We're not talking politics here. We're talking about individuals who say, I'm a follower of Jesus. I'm in a committed heterosexual marriage. I want my sex life to be great, but I'm carrying shame and baggage because I have these feelings where I feel drawn to people of the same sex. You know, what do I do with that? And I feel like there's a lot that can be done with that. Again, number one, the renewing of the mind means we don't always trust our feelings. Our feelings were not meant to be our compass. We live in a world that says, your feelings are your truth and your truth is right no matter what. And the truth is that's just wrong. Even the Bible says the heart is deceitful above all things. So if we're always just following our feelings or our heart, so to speak, it's going to lead us in the wrong direction unless our heart is following our commitments. And, and our heart is following the truth of Scripture. And so we need to be able to embrace grace ourselves and say, I'm not defined by what I've done in the past. I'm a new creation in Christ. I'm not defined by the thoughts in my head. I'm not defined even by these feelings that I have or even the feelings that I don't have. In this case, where she's saying, I'm feeling shame that I'm not sexually attracted to my husband. But it's not because there's anything wrong with her, it's because these, these lessons that were pounded in her head from a young age really changed her feelings. And so to renew the mind means to undo those lies, remind herself, God's put me with this man. I love him, he loves me. God wants us to have a thriving sex life. And I'm going to continue forward in it even before my feelings catch up, fully committed, fully embracing this gift of sex, knowing that eventually my feelings are going to get there. And in the meantime, I need to get really honest with my husband. And, and you know, that husband needs to provide a lot of grace and understanding, even though these will be awkward conversations, but conversations you need to have. And one day at a time, moving in the direction of saying, I'm not going to be defined by these thoughts in my head, but rather I'm going to be defined by what Jesus says about me and I'm going to move forward in my calling as a husband or a wife. I believe that healing happens along the way. Steamer here, give me the dirt.

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Edu Absolutely. And I want to tell you the timing of this is very interesting. I actually just listened to a great podcast. It's called Radical Radiance. It's mainly geared towards women, but actually a lot of their podcast episodes, definitely men could gain a lot of understanding from it. But on this recent episode it had an author. And I am so sorry, I'm not remembering the author's name, but I do remember the title of the podcast so it's Radical Radiance. And the episode title was called Mama Bear Apologetics. Okay. And this author, you know, talks about apologetics, but she actually wrote a book that has to do with sexual identity, and it addresses the root lies of this. Remember I was telling you about this? Very, very well done.

Very well.

I was listening to it while I was cleaning, and it was just really interesting. And she really goes into kind of what happens in our mind and relates it to the Bible and how, you know, the Bible has answers, you guys like, to everything. There's nothing new under the sun. And she talks about kind of why some of us really do struggle with this and also taking the shame off of it and the power off of it. And I think that, you know, the number one step to healing is, first of all, calling it sin, calling it a distraction, calling it a stronghold, whatever. You know, saying like, this isn't working for me. This isn't God's best for me. And this woman has recognized that. I mean, she's recognized that right away. And the second step is, you know, a lot of times I call it like, renunciation, saying, like, God, I'm so sorry. I don't like that I did this. Please forgive me. And Lord, help me to walk in the way you want me to go and specifically in this situation, help me to not have these thoughts anymore, but really to replace my thoughts with just embracing the identity I have in you. And then even further to enjoy sex with my husband and hopefully have attraction be part of that and the excitement that comes with that. But, Lord, even in the midst of this journey towards healing from this, help me, you know, just to be able to have intimacy with my husband and not have these other thoughts come into my mind. Because that's kind of what I hear her saying is she hates the fact that there's even this little tinge kind of in her mind and the doubts that come with that. But then after that, being able to talk about it with a trusted person and this, you know, as a married couple, first of all, with your. With your spouse, it really takes the power off of it because Satan wants us to keep these things hidden and us to beat ourselves up and to really just carry it. You know, he tries to convince us, you just need to carry this. This is like your burden to bear, and you can't ever tell anybody. And really, you know, probably he's whispering a lie to this woman and people who are similar to her saying, you know, you really are never going to have the sex life you want to have. Because truly, deep at the heart of this, you know who you are. You know that you're not really heterosexual. Like, you're really attracted to women, and you're never gonna truly be attracted to your husband. And just those lies, you know, just like the serpent whispering to Adam and Eve, trying to convince them that God's not enough and that he's holding out something on them. Satan has the same game today. And so we have to recognize those lies. And one way we can do that is by taking those steps I just talked about, but also being willing to talk about it with our spouse. And then if our spouse comes to us and shares these kind of things that we're dealing with, you know, we have to. We're gonna have a lot of different reactions. Cause it can be very jarring. But what we have to realize is our spouse is. Has been dealing with this. And it's a deep. A deep issue. And they've been wrestling with this for a long time. And they are trusting us enough to share this battle with us. And they're asking us, you know, will you still love me? And will you kind of enter into this battle with me? So to speak. And what does that look like? That looks like prayer. That looks like grace. That looks like acceptance, saying, like, I love you just as you are. I recognize with you this isn't, you know, God's best. This has been beating you up. This is a. As a. Is a big stronghold in your life and something that is giving you shame. And we want you to be free of this. So I'm going to walk alongside you through this. And I just. If you need more understanding of kind of how the mind works, what scripture says, please go listen to that episode on Radical Radiance. Again. The episode name is called Mama Bear Apologetics. And I'm telling y'. All, it. There's some resources in there they share, but it also. It just really helps you to understand. And it takes. It takes the stigma off of it. It takes the secrecy off of it. It helps us all, whether or not we're dealing with this. It helps us to understand this. Because, you know, some of you listening, maybe you and your spouse don't deal with this, but maybe your kids do or maybe someone in your family does. And it just kind of. It helps you to have understanding. It gives you tools to help and helps you walk with grace through this.

So good and so true. And the bottom line is God doesn't want you to walk in shame. I think a lot of people carry shame from Things they've thought, things they felt, things they've done, sexual experiences they've had, whether it's same sex or opposite sex experiences that were happened outside of marriage, that now they kind of carry baggage related to that. And it's, it's shaped how they see themselves and how they see sex. And Bible wants us to be a new creation in Christ by the old is gone, the new has come, once we embrace his healing and forgiveness. And yeah, there's still some, some residue from, you know, past sexual experience and sexual mindsets. And working through all that is part of what we're trying to cover here and in the Counterfeit Climax book. But ultimately, keep working toward healing. Knowing that you're loved, knowing, knowing that God has a great plan for your marriage, that he wants your sex life to thrive, that he doesn't look at you and see brokenness and see those feelings of shame that you're carrying. He wants to take that away from you so that you can see yourself through his eyes as one who is beloved, one who is pure, and one who has a great future. And so keep walking that road.

Absolutely. And I just want to say this. I do think this is a situation definitely where Christian counseling needs to be part of the healing process. Because anytime we have consistent thoughts that have been plaguing us again, we have to learn how to take those thoughts captive and replace them with God's truth. And we can do some of that on our own. But when they're really deep seated and they've been plaguing us for a long time, it usually takes going to counseling and learning some other techniques to help you to do this. And it can be so effective. I mean, one of the, the biggest counseling techniques both in secular counseling and Christian counseling today is it's cognitive behavioral therapy. And it really helps you to take those thoughts captive, but also to kind of walk out and live out in that freedom. And again, I really highly recommend you go to a Christian counselor. But they do use really the authority of God's word. And then they also use the most recent techniques in psychology to help you kind of to look at it from a neuroscience perspective, but also through the lens of the truth of God's word. And it can really help you to walk in freedom. So I think in this situation specifically, it could help tremendously. And in fact, I mean, I've heard stories of people who have walked this road and, you know, they've been able to have freedom and to have the kind of marriage and sex life that they so long for. But I will say this. You know, anytime that there's any kind of stronghold in your life or habits or anything, I mean, even if it's not having to do with sexual attraction or same sex attraction, it could be any kind of addiction or bad habits. It always takes time to heal. It's a process. And I think so many of us are looking for the quick fix. And God could do that. I mean, he could immediately, you know, free you from an addiction or free you from an attraction. But most of the time, it's a process because usually it, you know, walking through the process itself is what helps it to stick because you learn those new habits and you learn those new ways of thinking, and you start really understanding your identity in Christ. And so don't get frustrated with the process. Keep walking through it day by day. Sometimes it's hour by hour, minute by minute. But I promise you, God will meet you there. And, you know, it's amazing what he can do when we're just willing to do what he asks of us. And he doesn't ask anything of us that, that we can't do with his help. And so I love again how she ended this, this question to us saying, you know, I just realized that there is hope for healing and moving forward on this. And I just want you to know, all of you listening, that there's hope and healing and hope in moving forward for all of you listening today. But you do have to be willing to get honest with yourself. Obviously honest with God. He already knows what's going on, and honest with your spouse. And then be willing to go and reach out for help because there is such strength and wisdom in that.

So good. So good. All right, and now time for question number two of this episode. Again, we end every, every episode with a Q and A. And so here is today's question. Thank you. For those who write in again, you can, you can write us at avantashleywillis on Instagram. We try to answer those questions. You can find us on Facebook. But the questions we answer on air are the ones submitted@nakedmarriagepodcast.com and today says this. My husband and I struggle with initiating sex. It seems like I'm the one always ringing the dinner bell. I love that, if you catch my drift. And I'd like him to change and to take charge and control some. What's your advice? Yeah. So most marriages have this dynamic where one spouse is typically the initiator, and that spouse who's always initiating usually is the one who has the higher drive which is why they're initiating. There's other factors that can control, like why they're initiating, but usually it's the one who has the higher drive. And then because they're initiating so often the other spouse who maybe has a little bit lower drive, even if they're saying yes to the initiation, they feel like maybe they don't have an opportunity to initiate. And so what do we do in this situation? I love the question. Thank you for writing it. Because both people, both spouses want to feel sexually pursued in the marriage. And so the spouse that never is initiating, you're denying your spouse that pleasure and joy that comes from feeling pursued sexually, saying yes to their advances. That's huge. And that's awesome. And I'm sure they appreciate it. But take that a next step and really realize that when I pursue, when I'm the one who initiates, it's really doing something special in our marriage.

That's right. And I have a weird smirk on my face if you're watching on YouTube because we actually had this conversation pretty early on in our marriage. You were like, man, you never initiate. And I'm like, you never give me a chance.

You gave me a chance.

Yeah, like, I like you never.

Because I was initiating every five minutes and you're just like, come on down, boy, slow down. You're like, I can't initiate if you're always initiating.

Exactly. And you never really looked at it.

I never thought of it that way.

Literally, I remember your face. I was like your 20 something year old face looking at me like, oh, I never really thought about that.

Yeah, I never thought about it.

I was thinking about initiating. I didn't give myself time to think about it. So.

So yeah, that's, that's part of it. And just communicate with each other, you know, let your spouse know what they're doing. Right. I think people respond a lot to encouragement to say, you know, I love it when you pursue me. I love it. I mean, it just.

Well, you had to tell me that. You were like, but I'm sorry, I've rushed ahead of you and not even giving you the chance, but I really would like it if you would initiate. And so I tried to be creative and I found some ways to initiate with you.

Yes. And it was a big win. So if you back up and give a little space for that to happen, then it is a win win. So that's part of it. Keep communicating on these things. Keep pursuing each other. Guys, we're out of time for the day. But, man, we so appreciate you listening. If this, if this episode or any of our episodes have made an impact in your life, do us a favor and share it with somebody. Post it online. All those things really help folks discover the important conversations that we're trying to have here. And we sure hope it's making a difference in your marriage. God bless. We'll see you next time.

Sa.