Why We Hurt the Ones We Love—and How to Fix It

Elevento de abrios de Burlington Yaesta qui compra una brigo des de ahoras tal ventimuembre. You obtain cinco dolares de descuento en tu compra de venticinco mas del seis al ventiquatro de diciembre a de mas Burlington Donara cinquenta mila brigos nuevos para yudara los necitados de todo el pais por medio de nuestra collaboracion con delivering good piedamos mas de cincuenta anos abrigando te nos vemos en o estrovento de abrigos. Burlington Marcas rebajas. Wow. Burlington Punto com diagonal cotes paramas de tallest foreign. Hello, and welcome back to the Naked Marriage Podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast we address the truth about sex, intimacy and lifelong love. And we are continuing to talk about more red flags in your marriage. Dave is going to tell you what we're going to talk about today.

Yeah, this is a huge one and a sad one when a marriage falls into this dynamic and it's when there is a tone of constant criticism or even contempt in the marriage. I mean, it's Dr. John Gottman, a very famous marriage researcher, author of Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work. He's done research on marriage all of his career and says that contempt or constant criticism is. Is one of the clearest signs that a marriage is in crisis and headed towards a worse. Unless. Unless it's quickly turned around. But it's maybe the biggest red flag because once you get to that point where it's like your spouse can't do anything right, you know, you're just rolling your eyes at them all the time or they're doing that at you. There' any warmth in the tone. There's no encouragement or even courtesy. It's just. It's just negative and it's harsh and it's hard. And we've all been around couples like this when they're in this and it's so uncomfortable.

Oh, it is.

It's so cringy, you know, you hate it for them.

Yeah.

Because they don't even realize. I don't think that they've fallen into that. For them to just be doing it in public, you wonder how are they talking to each other behind closed doors if this is what they're doing in public. So if you have fallen into that. First off, we're so glad that you're here. Thank you for listening or for watching this on YouTube, there's hope. There's hope. And just the fact that you're listening, you're investing your time into something to make some improvements, shows that there's hope. But I know that in the moments where marriage is in a really low place, it can feel hopeless. And so we want to give hope in this episode. We also want to talk about practical ways to. To prevent this for those who haven't fallen into it, to prevent ever falling into it, and also practical ways out of it for those who have fallen into this cycle of negativity and criticism. I'll say something kind of funny before we get in, because this is a lot of hard stuff, but there's this couple I follow on Facebook. I can't think of their names, but they post just funny stuff all the time. Little marriage memes. And one that was so funny, and I reshared it on our marriage page. It was his husband and looking so sad. And he said, all you've done for the last 28 years is correct. Everything I've said. And the wife is looking at him and has her hand on his hand, and she's saying, 29 years. Oh, my gosh, it is so funny.

That is funny.

They put a lot of good stuff out there, but I wish I could think of their names, but, you know, I'm old and we follow a lot.

Of other marriage accounts. Like, there's. It's really a small world of marriage, people, you know, who kind of do similar things to what we do. I'm sure I could find out who they are.

But don't be like that.

But don't be like that. I mean, they were joking, but, you.

Know, it's be critical for 28. No, it's 29 years. You can't even get that right.

Yes. No. I think that people really find themselves in this kind of contempt and resentment phase when they've really allowed just a spirit of negativity to reign over their marriage. And they really. You know what? I know contempt's a word we don't use a lot, but really, it's just simply seeing your spouse as your enemy. I mean, like, that's the simplest way I can describe it, is you literally see them through a lens of being your enemy. They're just there to make your life miserable. Right? Nothing good. Everything that is wrong or for the wrong reason, and even when they maybe are trying to do something right, you find something negative in it. Like, you have an eye for the negative. It's almost like it's like you're seeing them. You know how years ago it was all the rage to get portraits done and to get them in what's called. And I'm probably mispronouncing this, but sepia or sepia, where it's like a brown.

It's not really black and white, but it's sort of black and white. It's kind of browns and whites.

In the 2000s, we thought this made it look like a more expensive picture. And it looked nice in your house. And I went through a major cpa.

Well, this is before we had filters on our own. This is true. See, back in the olden days, children, right now, you could take a picture and you can instantly put any kind of filter on it.

You can actually do sepia. I don't even think they call it.

That, but yeah, but back in the olden times, they had to manually, when they printed out a photo, which is something they used to do.

Look at JCPenney and see JCPenney. I mean, do they even exist? I don't know.

See, we have all these references. The young people don't. JCPenney is basically little House on the Prairie to young people. And they don't even know what Little House on the Prairie is. So even.

No, I think they. I don't know. I mean, that's still out there.

So we're losing touch with this.

How are we going to get back with the peeps here?

What are these young people into?

I just heard. Okay, I'm going to digress here, But I just said peeps. I don't even think you all say that anymore. But you young people, I heard this comment and I laughed out loud. And then I said a comment, and I was like, I'm so old right now. But it was saying, that slaps. Like, oh, that slaps. And it was in a commercial, and it was like they were trying to be cool with the lingo. And I'm thinking that slaps means, like, that hits just right. That's good. Whatever. I actually go to the Urban dictionary and look up these words sometimes. Like, I'm that mom. Like, if my kids come around saying something, I've heard that scream. You know, like, screams, too. But anyway, I remember me making a comment and I was like, what? I'm like, come on, what's up with.

All this mumbo talking? What is this?

Just like, I don't know. Anyway, but let's get back to contempt. So with all that, I was making a point with the sepia thing. I feel like it's like you're seeing your spouse just through this lens of no color.

Yeah, it's a broken filter.

It's a broken filter, right, Exactly. It's not correct. You're not even seeing them for who they are. And you're certainly not seeing the good things distorted.

Whenever we're. We have contempt, we're really looking at someone through a distorted lens and all negative.

And then they feel like, well, I can never let you see me in the right way. No matter what I do, it's not going to be good enough. So then they usually fall in line with this, you know, resentment and contempt kind of thing you guys have going on. And then they start seeing you that way, too.

Yeah.

And then it goes round and round and round. And, you know, John Gottman, you mentioned that again. I love that book, Seven Principles to Making Marriage Work. He talks about this and how, you know, for some it's not gonna last very long. You'll just end up divorced. Like, if you don't do anything to change it, one of you is gonna leave. Like, it's just. It's just bound to happen when nobody's. Because when you're in contempt, too, you don't take any responsibility because you're always right. You know, you kind of get into this thing where you always see yourself as being the victim or being the hero. Right. And that's not healthy either, because there's, you know, there's what you think happened and what she think she thinks happened or he thought happened, and then what really happened. Right. And then. But, you know, but you're each having your own experience, and that does matter. But it's not sustainable for some couples. But then other couples, you know, because, you know, hopefully they. They really are trying to hash it out and that. And they'll tell you, I don't believe in divorce. They'll stay in this dynamic, but yet they won't do anything to fix it. Because it takes one person going first. It takes one person saying, this isn't working. It takes one person saying, we need help. Like, we can't keep on going this way. But when you find yourself at odds with each other and just seeing each other through the lens of contempt, you don't want to make the move, because then you think that shows weakness. Because when we're caught in the cycle of contempt, we want to win, and we think winning is being right and winning is showing them how wrong they are. And you guys, it just doesn't work. It doesn't work. So either way, whether you stay in this for 25 years or whether you end up parting ways, you know, it's just. There's gotta be a better way, right, sweetie? There's gotta be. And there is a better way.

There is a better way. And Shirley, you know, you know there's a better way because your relationship wasn't always like that. You know, we don't fall in love with somebody where there's constant contempt and negativity. And then we. Early on, there was, at some point in your marriage, your relationship, even pre marriage, where it did not look like this, you were kind to each other, you were courteous, you were playful, you were complimentary. And somewhere along the way, a shift started to happen. And usually it's little by little. It's not all at once. You don't go from lovey dovey to just angry and mean at each other overnight. But it's little by little and you gotta. You have to start course correcting when you realize, okay, we've gotten into a negative cycle here. And instead of pointing the fingers and blaming, it's all because of you, or it's all. The only part of your marriage you can control is the part you see when you look in the mirror. So to go first, you have to be the one to go first and start being kind and start being courteous. And if your spouse is being rude or cold, to respond to that with warmth. To choose to believe the best in them. To choose to believe that I know that they love me. They're not displaying it right now, but I'm choosing to believe the good. I'm going to call out the good. I'm going to speak life to them. I'm going to also be honest. That like, hey, your words hurt. It hurts me when you know when you say that. But I want you to know I love you. I want to show you my love through my words. And I want us to be the safest place on earth for each other. I think talking to a counselor can be really helpful. The marriage mediation program we have here at EXO is particularly helpful, I think, for couples who've fallen into a dynamic like this, because the tools of the mediation process are revolutionary. To help couples identify maybe some patterns that are unhealthy and to find common ground for how to move forward. And our team here is incredible. So mediation is something you can do here at the headquarters in South Lake, Texas, or from anywhere in the world through video conferencing. And you can go to xomarriagehelp. H E L pxomarriagehelp.com get all the information on that. And one day of that, just an eight hour mediation, one day, it could be the difference maker in breaking you out of this negative cycle. You don't have to figure it all out on your own. I think if you've been in a long pattern of it, it's time to bring in another voice. It's time to talk to a Christian counselor or to one of our mediators. It's time to call in some help.

It is, because there is help out there, whether, whether, like Dave said, it's mediation or it's talking to a counselor, even like joining a small group at church that's focused on marriage. I mean, there's all kinds of great resources out there, some that are free, some that you have to pay for, but you just can't keep doing what you're doing because it's clearly, clearly not working. And you know, one thing in the exo mediation process that I love is, is where they talk about the difference between a contract marriage and a covenant marriage. And I feel like that's important to, of when we talk about contempt because it's really an eye opener for people when they're going through the mediation process because it kind of hits the nail on the head about how they're operating most of the time. Right?

Yeah.

And like, just to describe it quickly, you know, a contract marriage is very much, it's just, you know, that legal document you get when you're married. But when it comes to living out a contract marriage, it's all about what you can get out of the marriage you're focused on getting. Whereas a covenant marriage is focused on giving. It's a covenant, it's more than a contract. It's a lifelong thing about, you know, a lifelong agreement that you guys are both making to serve one another. Right? And in a contract marriage, you're keeping tabs. You're keeping tabs on all the stuff you do and all the stuff they're not doing. Right. It's a tit for tat, is what we often say. Like there's a tally list going on. It's very much, you know, it's a conditional kind of love. It's like, well, yeah, I'll show you love if I feel loved, you know, and if you're doing what I need you to do, but if you're not, then I'm not doing what I need to do. It's very much just about the individual and not the collective. Whereas, you know, the covenant, it's about the Collective and the servant's heart, where we're both going to give, you know, 100% as much as we can to this marriage and not feel like any, any task is beyond what we should do. We're not getting, you know, lost in, in this tally that we're keeping. Doesn't mean we don't address it. We do, but it, it doesn't mean that's the whole focus is about what we can get out of this thing.

Yeah.

You know, and, and those are just a few examples of the contract versus the covenant marriage. But whenever, you know, in mediation, when you take couples through that and you describe it and they go, you know, it goes into much more detail than what I just shared, but it's very eye opening to people. It's very eye opening and it's.

Yeah, it's a wake up call.

It's a wake up call. And it's. And then, you know, we usually take them through and say, well, which one sounds better? I mean, you're saying you're in the contract marriage right now. And you know, they clearly say, well, I want a covenant marriage. That sounds so amazing. I mean, there's forgiveness and there's connection and there's this oneness and there's this unity. Like that's what we long for. And you know, they come to this point where they realize, well, we can't keep doing what we're doing because right now what we're doing is leading to a contract marriage. And really barely a contract marriage because a lot of them have like one foot out the door. So they're ready to let the contract go. Right. But it's like, you know, when they realize, oh my gosh, we both want a covenant marriage. And, you know, just that in and of itself, like when you can get on the same page with your spouse and agree what kind of marriage you want, that can relieve some of that contempt. Because then you feel that connection, you start to feel like one step towards having similar goals too. Because, you know, when you're caught in this cycle of contempt and resentment, you start losing sight of why you're even together and what your goals are. And what is marriage anyway? Like, what is, what is a good marriage?

Yeah, everything's. Even the marriage is all negative. It's like, there's nothing good in this. There's no, no shared vision or goals or nothing positive. And you start fantasizing about a life without your spouse.

Right.

And marriage itself becomes skewed in your brain.

It becomes like, why did I ever get married? Like Marriage is just maybe not for me. Like, if this is marriage, I don't want it. And so I think, you know, it's not. If you find yourself here, that's not all bad. Like, I feel like, I mean, we want, we'll talk about how to avoid getting to contempt, but don't count it all bad because count it as a wake up call. Count it as a place where you're like, wow, we need it. Like, something's gotta give here. And that in and of itself is a good thing because it's like, we're both sick of this. We're both sick of being caught in this cycle. We don't wanna continue on in the way that we are. We want, you know, to stay together. I don't think you'd be listening to this podcast if you didn't. Like, you want something good for your marriage, you wanna at least try. And so at least you can agree, okay, we can't keep on doing this. And that in and of itself can be, you know, something to get you to kind of start moving in the right direction together by getting help. We've got gifting all wrapped up at Sephora. Gift more and spend less with our value sets packed with the best makeup, skincare, fragrances and hair care they'll love this year's Showstopper gift sets are bursting with beauty products from Rare Beauty, Summer Fridays, Glossier Amica, and so much more. Shop holiday gifts@sephora.com and give something beautiful. And so, you know, I think it's just recognizing it for what it is, where, you know, anytime. Let's talk about that. Like, so what is it like? Like, what are the details? What does it feel like to be in a marriage that's just full of contempt and resentment? It's, it's where you wake up in the morning and you dread seeing your spouse. You don't even want to talk to him because you're, you're assuming that if you talk to him, they're probably going to have something negative to say. And maybe you have something negative you want to say. It's where you can't wait to get out of the house because you can't wait to just be with somebody else, be with other friends, be with other people, be with your kids, anybody else but your spouse. It's where if they have something they want to tell you, they speak to you and you speak to them in a very dry way that has very little affect because you're so tired of this dynamic that you've taken even emotion out of it that maybe the most you can muster up is maybe just apathy, you know, just a. Just lacking. It's an anemic kind of existence. Existence. And so, you know, you. Anytime you talk about your spouse, if you do, because you're at this point probably rarely talking about them to anybody else.

Yeah.

But anytime you do talk about them, it's usually negative. Like, if somebody happens to ask about them, you try to change the subject. Or if you do have something to say, it's just really negative. You know, you rarely do anything together because you just frankly don't want to be together. You know, I mean, this sounds very depressing, right? You really maybe, you know, do some things together just because they're necessary, like paying bills, like taking the kids to where they need to go, just doing the basic duties of keeping the house, but you don't do anything where it's just for the sheer delight of being together, because that just sounds like a chore. Sounds like another thing on the to do list. And if you do go somewhere, it might be because you're just checking a box. You're again, taking your emotions out of it. You know, when you think about your spouse, you just don't feel good. You know, you have that contempt and resentment that comes up, and you maybe feel like. Maybe you feel like you're out of love, honestly. Maybe you're not even sure you love.

Your spouse anymore and certainly don't like them.

And you certainly don't like them. Exactly. And. And you maybe had two people around you, whether it's your kids or close family members or friends who spend time with you, who maybe have asked you, like, is everything okay? You know, because I feel like by the time you're in contempt and resentment, it can. It can look two ways, because it can be on the early part of it, where you're fighting all the time, like, where you were talking about somebody, like, fighting in public. Or it can be on the. If you've been fighting a long time, you can get to the other side of it. Which. Talking about that book again with Dr. John Gottman, the Seven Principles for Making a Marriage Work, he says, like, the kiss of death is where, like, there's no feeling, like there's just an existence, but, like, you can't even muster up even anger anymore. Like, you can't even muster up enough anger to even hash it out. Because you're like, why even do it?

Cause anger, at least, is an emotion.

At least you're feeling it.

You feel something. But when you get to that place of apathy, indifference.

Indifference is even worse because it's like.

I don't have anything left to care at all, one way or the other.

I don't even care if you come home today. In fact, don't. In fact, don't. I mean that. And it disagrees me to even talk about that, but I know people, really.

It's from a place of exhaustion, emotional exhaustion, where you have felt misunderstood, you felt hurt, rejected, disappointed, and you feel like you've got nothing left to give.

Unseen.

Unseen. You feel like what you've done to try to fix things, has that made no difference? And maybe your spouse feels the same way, or maybe they feel negative for different reasons, but both of you are just completely unhappy.

Yeah.

And when you get to that place, a lot of folks just say, well, there's nothing left to do but throw in the towel. And we've known folks that the only reason they're staying married is because they can't afford the divorce attorney or because kids, they're like, well, let's just grit our teeth and suffer through this until the kids get out of the house, and then we'll go our separate ways. And that's the wrong approach for a number of reasons. I know it feels selfless on the surface to say we're going to just stay together for our kids, but what you're doing is modeling for children a toxic example of marriage that's going to make them terrified to ever be married or have a family. Yeah, because you're teaching your children what marriage is supposed to look like. And if you're just surviving this person that you can't stand, and that's going to be obvious to everybody, nobody's a good enough actor 247 to pretend that they love this person. Because, frankly, if you were even just pretending at first, your feelings tend to follow your actions, and you'd probably end up having more feelings for yourself.

Exactly.

That's true if you're just choosing to be kind to them, even if you didn't feel like it. But your kids are seeing that you're just going through the motions, that you're frustrated with each other, that you don't like each other. And I think a lot of kids having grown up in that dynamic is why there's a whole generation of young people who are, frankly, terrified of marriage. Because they said, well, I saw my parents, and if that's what marriage is, I want no part of it. So I'll just. I will not commit to anybody or I'll commit, but Outside of marriage, we'll live together, and then the moment it gets hard, we'll disappear. Because I'm not going to. I'm scared to bring children into the world because I don't want them to see what we saw. I'm just going to keep my options open. And then your kids miss out on the gift of family, the gift of marriage, because they had a distorted view of it.

And I would say, too, a lot of times when you've had this contempt, you do have, like, epic fights like that aren't getting you anywhere. You're emotionally flooded where you're not even thinking straight, you're slinging names. You know, sometimes people end up throwing things. Like, it doesn't. I mean, it can get physical. We've known people where it's gotten physical, whether from the woman or from the man, and get help immediately, get to that point. That is an emergency. But odds are there was a lot of fighting and contempt before anybody threw something or hit. Hit anybody. Okay? And that obviously it's completely out of bounds. Even. Even name calling is out of bounds, you know, but you find yourself where you're cussing at each other, swearing. You know, there's a lot of different ways of saying this around the country and around the world. From Kentucky, we say cussing, but, you know, you're cussing at each other and you're just slinging, you know, saying the most vile things that you would not say, even probably to the worst person. You know, like you're saying it to the one you're supposed to be pledging your life to.

It can get to that place, but it usually starts with just little digs.

Little digs. And the tone.

The tone of just sarcastic, cold responses to each other or just ignoring each other. Oh, yeah, Just subtle disrespect, slamming doors. Yeah. Rolling of the ice, huffing in just exasperation at something that your spouse says. All of that stuff matters a lot.

It does. Let me tell you all. I was recently. I recently witnessed this, and it just reminded me. And I know in the work we do, we don't always. Whether in the counseling or coaching space or even in the work we do with exo marriage, people come to us who've been through this many times. We work with people even in the church before we were actually officially doing marriage ministry. And, you know, people would come and describe these kind of dynamics, but they wouldn't have it in front of us, obviously. I mean, they might have a little bit of an argument. I mean, I've definitely witnessed People having a little bit, but they're usually on their best behavior in front of the pastor, the counselor, you know, or the people who are trying to help them. But I was in Las Vegas with my mom and sister recently on a little girls trip. And we were in a family friendly hotel. So a lot of New York, New York, okay, hotel, and lots of families there. And we were walking down our hallway to go to our hotel room, and all of a sudden we heard couple fighting. And it just. It started with the little digs, and then, like, very quickly it just. And it got really loud. That's why. And I. And then I. I heard something like, hit the wall, you know, And I. I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, what made me stop is I'm like, is that a person or is that a thing? Like, what's happening? And I got really alarmed. And then I heard children crying, and then I heard them slinging about the. And then they were, you guys, they were yelling as loud as they possibly could. I mean, not totally losing awareness that the children are in the room, that they're in a public, you know.

Yeah.

And I mean, I'm talking blood curdling, cussing, vile name calling, this and that. And the wife at one point did become a little more aware, and she. She told the husband to get out of the room. And I think it was because she sensed this is not like, this is danger zone, danger, something bad's gonna happen here, you know? And she's like, get out of the room. And he. I think in his mind was like, but I. I'm trying to have a conversation with you. He wasn't as loud as she was. But I think that in his view, I think he was being erratic with his body language, judging child. She felt threatened.

And you're on the other side of a door.

Right. I'm not even saying this.

How do I help?

I'm hearing all of it.

What's my responsibility here? With children involved.

Exactly. And it was so bad, you guys. There were children, and I could tell it was very dangerous. So my sister and I went back to our room and we actually called security. I mean, I was worried for this family. And I'm not trying to be a Karen here. Don't worry. But I mean, wouldn't you want if that. I just. Morgan and I both are married mothers, and she's like, I'd want someone to call if I ever got to that point. Like, she's like, like, God help me, you know, I mean, we were both talking this through because I'm like, what do we do? What do we do? I mean, I don't want them to get in trouble. I just want to. I want to help these kids in this family, you know? So we called security, and then we heard the security. I guess this hotel does not have very good walls because we heard. We were only. We were like three doors down and heard all of this. Okay. Security came, and it did get them to calm down. And, you know, they were like, do we. Like, what's really going on here? And it just was like, you know, I understand vacation can be the perfect storm for, you know, you have young children. Vegas is all over the place. I mean, there's a lot going on, a lot of stimulus. You know, you probably traveled a long way to get there. I mean, I give people lots of grace, but this was. You could tell by how this couple was fighting that this was not the first time, you know what I'm saying? And she, like, it was just. It broke my heart, especially doing what we do. It broke my heart. And we were praying for them. I mean, I was like, lord, help this family. But it just. The reason I'm sharing this is. It just is so fresh in my mind of what contempt and resentment is and just how. How bad it can really get. And I don't know what happened to that family. We never heard them the rest of the trip, but they have been on my mind. I mean, I've prayed for them. I never even saw them. And I didn't. You know, I didn't want to. I'm not trying to be nosy here, but, I mean, it was for everyone to hear. Like it was. I think other people have insecurities. I know it's the right call, too, but it was. It just scared me. And I thought that's how scary we can get when we just unleash our wrath onto our spouse. And I know, you know, some of you watching and listening could be like, well, I mean, you don't know what my spouse has done. I don't. I don't. You may have every single reason to be just as angry as ever, but that. But you unleashing in your anger is only going to make things worse. And, you know, we have to learn skills on. On how to get out of this season of contempt, because it really can lead to some very horrible places. I mean, at worst, you know, you can have a Killing each other. I mean, like, really bad, you know, I mean, we hear all these stories of where people, they stay in these seasons, and that's a worst case scenario. But still it happens. I mean, I'm just being gut level honest with you.

You get that enraged, that anger. I mean, it's unchecked, it goes. I know nobody thinks they can get to that point, but. But just statistically, most of the time when a man or a woman is killed, it's their spouse or significant other that did it. Because there's so much. There can be so much rage built up and clearly never get anywhere close to that. If you find yourself even tempted toward violence, reach out, get help. Any kind of violence, any kind, get help. And if you're experiencing that, reach out, get help. There's so many help hotlines available, shelters available. There's a lot of resources out there. So you have to get physically safe.

Right? Like the hotline.com is a safe place you can go. I think there's a number on that too. And they immediately will get you in touch with authorities.

But even if you're living under the verbal, just negativity or verbal abuse, that's flying both ways. We're abusing each other with our words.

And then we feel guilty. That's the thing that happens is we feel beaten up on and then we end up slinging it too. And then we feel guilty about it. And a lot of times too, it happens in front of our children. That's why I wanted to share that story. So these kids are scared to death of like what's going on, Excuse me, with mom and dad, it's like, are we safe? Like what is happening? And just it gets so rocky. And I know, you know, sometimes people think, well, we just need a divorce because now the damage is done. But don't believe that lie. Because here's the deal. Dear friends of ours, years ago, I don't think they were necessarily to the Las Vegas couples, you know, place of anger and rage. But they were in a really, really rough season. I'm not gonna share their names. Cause they haven't shared it publicly. But they were in a really rough season of just not getting along, really. I would say in a resentment. I don't know if they were full on. I mean, I know. I mean, I think there was contempt there. Now that I think about when I had the conversations with the wife, I'm just feeling like, you know, he's never gonna change. We're just never gonna have the marriage I thought we'd have. He's always gonna be a liar. Lying was a big issue for this couple. And they did go eventually to marriage counseling and they went for a long time. Like, it took them a long time. And I remember having conversations with the wife, who's a dear friend of mine, and her just being really discouraged. But I remember something shifted in them when. And they, they were doing the hard work. You know, again, counseling's. It's not beautiful. Like, it's, it's. It's a, it's a journey. And sometimes it gets uglier before it gets better because you're getting the, the yuck out. Like Dave often describes it, like getting. Cutting out a cancerous tumor is not pretty, but you're getting the cancer out. But then you have the time of healing and it's uncomfor and you have to have bandages and you may have to go back to the doctor and they may have to go in and get more of it. And I mean, there's just this process in the same way. That's how counseling is and mediation too. And I remember there was a shift where they both felt like they didn't want their kids to be in the dark. And they have a bunch of kids and they said, we want to tell our kids what we're doing because I'm sure they've sensed the tension. I'm sure there's been things that we've said that we regret that, you know, they've heard and we tried to, you know, calm their fears, but we need to just be gut level, honest with them and say we're working on our marriage. And so, like, they gathered their kids, they sat down and they were like, hey, I'm sure you've sensed that mom and dad aren't getting along as well right now. I want you to know that we're really fighting for our marriage and things are hard right now, but we're going to a marriage counselor, and it's a Christian marriage counselor, and we're praying, and if you could pray with us, we really want our marriage to be better. They didn't use divorce. They didn't, you know, they were, they were trying to bring peace to the situation, but they were also not keeping their kids in the dark, which I think a lot of times as parents, we're really tempted to like, oh, they can't know. And it's like, guys, they already know. They already know. And I think that was really a turning point for them because it almost was like accountability in a sense, because they're like, well, now our kids know we have to do this. And not only like, you know, and some of you might think this is interesting, but what happened was so cool because it gave them even a higher standard. Like, well, now our kids are even watching. If counseling can work and if we.

Can, if we're willing to do it.

God can do this. If we're willing to do the work. Like, there's so much at stake here, you know, and it was really cool. And so I want to say, like, within six months of sharing that with their kids, it almost gave them, like, a fresh wind. And they came out the other side of that, where I remember her telling me, like, I never knew it could be so good. And like, fast forward, I don't know, like three or four years, I just had breakfast with her. And they actually just went through a really hard time. And as a family, and I'm not going to get into the details of it, obviously, but it was just something where it really. Their hearts were broken over a huge misunderstanding, and they felt kind of like they lost a community that they loved so much and they had to kind of recalibrate. And back in the past, you know, I think she would have. Her and her husband may have looked at each other as kind of maybe the culprit. You know, when you're caught in contempt, that's what happens. That is not at all what has happened. In fact, she was just saying. She was like, I don't know, it was just a different. It's like a different relationship. And it was like, she trusts him, he trusts her. They're attacking it as a family. Their marriage is so strong. And I just, you know, I didn't say anything in the moment to her, but inside my heart and, like, in my spirit, I was, like, smiling like, lord, look at what you've done. You know, and they were at a really. I mean, a big crossroads those years ago. And I just think, too, like, look at these kids benefiting from these parents who fought the good fight, and they did it, you know, and it took a long time, but they did it. They are no longer in contempt, you know, like, holding contempt towards each other. They're not resentment, you know, not resentful towards each other. They truly love each other. No marriage is perfect. They still work through things, but you could tell they're good. They're good. And so I just wanted to share that.

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We love them to death. They're awesome.

And it's just, it's wonderful when you see, yeah. When you see stories like that.

And, you know, I mean, every marriage is going to have stuff like that. And so let's talk about how do we not let ourselves get all the way to contempt? Like where we're yelling and slinging things and cussing at each other and how do we avoid that pitfall?

That's a great question. I think you have to decide, kind of like to use a sports analogy, you have to know what's out of bounds. You have to know where the boundary lines are on any field. You know, I coached little soccer for like 4 year olds once with one of our kids. And the first thing I had to teach the kids, the first concept was that, guys, you have to stay within these lines and you have a ton of freedom within the lines. But as soon as you take the ball out of the line, as soon as you kick the ball way over into the forest over there, it doesn't even, it's not good. You know, the other team's gonna get the ball. And that was a big concept for those kids to learn. It's like, okay, well, these, these are the boundaries and that over there is the goal that we're aiming for. And once they understood that, then the whole game made sense. I think in marriage sometimes we have to be that clear of where are the boundary lines. Meaning, like, we're not gonna cross, we're not gonna say these certain things. We're not gonna name call, we're not going to roll our eyes at each other. All of these things are out of bounds. It doesn't mean we're never gonna be frustrated. We're not gonna express our frustration, but we're gonna do it with respect. And as soon as we get disrespectful, we've crossed that boundary line and we've forfeited our right to our point, really, because we forfeited. And then we also have to agree on where the goal is, what are we kicking towards, what's the target we're aiming towards. Let's have some shared visions and shared goals of what we want, work together towards that. And to think about it that clearly to think about it in that kind of way, because it's chaos when you're trying to play again, you're playing two different games with invisible boundary lines.

You don't know the rules, you don't know the lines.

It's exhausting and it's frustrating and of course you'd want to give up, but that's why you have to define the boundaries, define the goals.

I love that as a non sports person, even I understand that. So it's a very clear vision of what are the boundary lines and what's the goal, how do we get there and when we cross the boundary, how do we make it right? You know? Cause I think one of the greatest indicators.

What's the penalty?

Yeah, what's the penalty? And one of the greatest indicators of success in marriage, and this you will see in secular research, you'll see it in Christian research, all across the board, is a couple's ability to repair quickly. Like we repair what happened quickly because we're going to step on each other's toes. We are going to say the wrong thing. And so the fact that, and this isn't now, you don't want to get caught in like the cycle of just, you know, apologizing all the time, like where it's like, well, just say what you want to say and apologize. No, that's manipulative. I mean, that's not good, right? That's going to take you towards contempt real fast. But to really genuinely recognize, like to have enough self awareness to recognize when you've crossed a boundary and to go quickly and to seek forgiveness specifically for what you did wrong, not because you're, you know, just like, oh, I just crossed a boundary. I guess I'm going to have to apologize. Like, because you truly feel convicted. Like, oh yeah, we agreed on this. We agreed not to name call and I got angry, I called a name or I cussed at him, whatever it is, I need to go apologize. Like I was really harsh. That wasn't my intent, but I know I was and I'm so sorry. Will you forgive me? I think that's one thing, but also I think another side of that is being quick to recognize when you're both going off course or maybe not playing by the right rules. Like you just are quick to say, I'm feeling disconnected. I'm feeling a little bit unsteady right now and I can't put my finger on what it is, but I feel, I'm feeling unsteady right now. I feel like, you know, using those I statements like we talk about all the time is disarming because it's not like you're being unsteady right now. You're not connecting with me. Like, that's immediately gonna shut you down. But when I'm like, sweetie, something's. I feel off. I feel like something's a little bit off with us. It's like, I feel how I feel. Right. This is my experience. And we have to believe our spouse. Why would I make it up? Like, you know, I can sit across from a couple and literally one of them can be like, well, she's just saying that. Like, that's not really how she feels. Or he. No, he's just saying that. And I literally am like, why would they just like, why would they make that up? Like, I mean, believe your spouse? Because we feel how we feel. Experience matters. Perception matters. And you can think they're wrong all day long. And maybe that wasn't your intent, but they still got hurt. They still see it this way. And what you need to do as the spouse that maybe hurt them, whether you meant to or not, is you try to understand. You have that spirit of curiosity. Try to understand. Tell me more. Tell me more about what that felt like. Cause I certainly. I don't want to hurt you. And that wasn't my intent, but even still, I did hurt you.

Yeah. And so I'm sorry.

I'm so sorry.

I didn't mean to do it, but I did.

And I am so very sorry.

And ask what can I do to. To make it right? What can I do to heal what's been broken here, to rebuild your trust and make sure that I don't do that again?

You're right. And that ability to do. To both repair quickly and to identify where you're going off course quickly, that is going to set you, you know, it's going to set you up to constantly get back to that same goal and that. Right? Course.

Yeah, man, that is so good. Well, friends, I hope that this has been an encouragement to you today. And like we said, if you're caught in that cycle of negativity, don't lose hope, don't feel like things are over, but also don't stick with the status quo and thinking that things are going to get better on their own, because it's going to take. It's going to take real work. And just listening to this episode was some real work. You've done some real work. And so maybe a next step is to share this episode with your spouse to say, listen, I feel like we've been just in a negative rut. I want us to get better. I just listened to this episode. It challenged me in some ways, and I would love for you to listen to it and then for us to come together and talk about just some tools that we can adopt that might help us.

It's empowering to do that.

Yeah. Yeah. You're taking control over a situation that felt out of control, and you're doing it as a team.

And I just want to say this, too. The greatest way that you're going to get out of this, it's not going to all be in your own strength. You have your role to play. You each have your role to play, and you have things in your power you can do and steps you can take, like we've talked about this whole time. But you also have to rely on God, because, I mean, there are times where. And I know a lot of you listening to this are like, it would take a miracle. Like, you're thinking, that'll never happen to me. It would take a miracle. Well, God does miracles still today.

He still does.

And I've seen it time and time and time again. Dave has, too. There's been times where we've met with couples and we've been like, we would never voice this to them, but we've been like, I don't know. And then God proves us wrong.

He's going to take a miracle, or.

Like, we're like, I don't know, like, they'll leave our space, and then literally a month later, I'll see him happy as the clam. They've done the work. They've relied on God, and God has done the miraculous, and it just. It's awesome. So don't. Don't count yourselves out. He's still in the business of doing miracles, man.

That's a good word. Well, friends, I hope this was an encouragement to you. We're praying for you. We're cheering you on. Continue to stay connected to our resources here at ExoMarriage. We. We want to come alongside you and help you build the marriage that. That you've always wanted, the marriage God wants you to have. And we look forward to seeing you next time here on the Naked Marriage Podcast.