Long Covid vs ME/CFS - Similarities and Differences | Ashok Gupta | Gupta Program |

Well, hello and a warm welcome to our Facebook Live with myself, Ashok Gupta. And today we're going to be talking about a very important topic, which is the topic of Long Haul Covid and how it compares to MECFs. And the reason we're doing this Facebook Live is because we've had so many questions and conversations about this particular topic. So we thought it's very important that we dedicated an event to it. So my name is Ashok Gupta. I'm director of the Gupta Program. And the Gupta Program is a neuroplasticity brain retraining program, limbic retraining program, designed to treat chronic illnesses like me, cfs, fibromyalgia and associated conditions like mcs, mold illness, POTS and other things as well. And I'm delighted to have with me Shona, who is one of our Gupta Program coaches, who over the last few months has been specializing in treating Long COVID patients using the Gupta program. So, hi there, Shona. How are you?

I'm good, thank you. I'm happy to be here.

Great. Thank you for coming on. So today what we're going to do first of all is talk about and talk with Shona around some of the similarities and differences that she has seen in her practice and treating these types of patients and my experiences as well. So we're going to look at the practical aspect of actually treating the patients. And then later on in today's event, I will then look at the science behind it. So what is the research showing us about the similarities and differences between these two particular illnesses? Then we will finish this event and we will start a new event on this same timeline. And that will be all around the Q and A, any questions that you have and anything you wanted to ask myself or Shona. So first of all, in terms of my experience personally, I've been speaking to a lot of Long COVID patients and doing various dedicated webinars for them. And I've seen a lot of similarities between the two conditions and also a few differences as well. So the main similarities have been in terms of the clusters of symptoms that they're facing, especially post exertional malaise, but also differences, I think, more psychologically because obviously Covid and Long Covid are brand new. They're brand new conditions, brand new illnesses. And I certainly have noticed there has been a little more fear around what it means to have long Covid. Do I still have the infection in my body? What happens if it's life threatening in some shape or form? I think that's been some fears that we've been dealing with here at the clinic. And I'll mention some more a little later on, but I want to bring in Shona, who's kindly joining us today. So, Shona, what's been your experience, first of all, in terms of the similarities between the two?

Great question. I absolutely see so many similarities between chronic fatigue syndrome and post Covid. The many people that I work with, I feel like when I listen to them, they're exhibiting the same symptomology, the same symptoms that I had with chronic fatigue syndrome. A lot of them, yeah. It's just so similar.

Right, so you see a lot of similarities in terms of the types of symptoms?

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

And then in terms of the differences from a practical perspective, what have you. What have you noticed, if any?

Well, the differences are that when people read the hypothesis, which I assume you'll go over later, of the Gupta program and why it works, it resonates with people that have post Covid, and they seem to be more understanding of why the Gupta program would work for them. That's a difference. And they, they already know what they have, so they've kind of ended their search. Whereas a lot of people with other chronic conditions, their brain is very hyperactive, always looking for what they might have. So they have that definitiveness, which is actually a blessing, even though it doesn't feel like a blessing. Another difference is sometimes they have more breathing challenges.

I mean, I've definitely found that in terms of the webinars I've been presenting, that breathlessness, shortness of breath, difficulty when exerting with the breath has been characteristic. And that makes sense because obviously COVID 19 is a respiratory illness or that's a big hallmark of the condition. And therefore it makes sense that they would have more challenges with that. And obviously some patients may have actual scarring of the lungs or damage to the lungs, but that isn't exclusively. So we found that some do, some don't. And it's not necessarily the actual defining characteristics that makes them go on to having long Covid, I find. Yeah. Okay. So the main difference you're finding are the ones that you've mentioned. And what have you found in terms of. Because obviously you've treated many different types of patients using the Gupta program. Fibromyalgia, main chronic fatigue syndrome, mold illness, and now long Covid. What have you seen in terms of the prognosis of how they heal, how quickly they heal using these neuroplasticity techniques? What has been your experience there?

Well, I get pretty excited with that question. And that's why I'm here today. I feel pretty vulnerable coming on here, but I. I'm so passionate to share the experience that people are having recovering from post Covid using the Gupta program. A lot of people I meet are basically bedbound when I start coaching them. And, I mean, I just received a picture today of a woman who is out on her mountain bike. So she's made almost a complete recovery. And, yeah, so many examples. Another woman who couldn't even take care of her children, she had a nanny. Now she's at the gym again. And a lot of people, I really want to emphasize all the people I see, they're normal, beautiful people that were just living their life. You know, professionals, designers, pastors, people that are, you know, your neck. People that are just normal, beautiful, healthy people. The part of me feels very protective of them if people cast judgment on them because they can feel so misunderstood. But back to your original question. Yeah, the program gets them literally from bedbound to participating fully in life again, which is fantastic.

And it's is also a testament to yourself, Shona, in terms of, you know, the great work that you're doing with them and the reassurance that you're giving them as they go along this journey. Because it's not an easy journey, first of all, to go through COVID 19 as an infection, then to get long Covid, and then to try and work yourself back to healing and recovery. So it really does require someone like yourself who's got that, you know, I know you personally, that compassion and that real support to help them through the difficult times. So thank you for the good work you do with them.

Oh, thank you. I love it.

Okay, so you're finding that we're getting these types of recoveries, and because long Covid is a relatively new condition compared to me and chronic fatigue syndrome, are you finding that perhaps they do get better a little quicker than some of the other patients? And is that naturally because the other patients may have had it for many years?

Yeah, I think that's what gets me. I was so curious and loved it. Of course, I noticed that people who do the Gupta program for post Covid, they seem to get well, quicker. And maybe it's because, like I said, they understand the hypothesis right away. It makes sense to them. A lot of people with other conditions that I see, they've had them for years, decades, and. And they have a lot of hopelessness, and they've searched and tried so many things, and so they don't want to get their hopes up sometimes. Whereas people with Post Covid not to minimize the time that they have had this condition, because any time with a chronic condition is awful, but they haven't had it as long. And so the neurology of defeat maybe isn't as strong.

Sure, that's a really interesting. That would be a great Facebook Live for me. The Neurology of Defeat actually would be a great title. It's a great phrase there. Yeah, exactly. It's the ability to actually have that optimism to say, there will be a way forward for me, I can get better from this. And I guess the reason for this also is we really want to give that message to everyone who's got Long Covid or knows of someone, has a loved one with Long Covid that whether it's through our program or other techniques, people are getting better from Long Covid. And we don't have the research studies yet to show that, but it's in no way something that people should feel, oh, if I have this, I'm going to have this forever. Which is what many people are saying. There are ways through, there are ways of healing and what I'd love for you to do. So if you're watching this live on Facebook right now, please do share this on your own timeline, perhaps the timeline of groups that you're participating on or sharing it with friends. Because we want to get this message out there that actually there are ways through Long Covid people are getting better. And we'd like to offer one potential solution, which is the Gupta program, which is what we're talking about today. So please do share it on all your various social media channels and we can get this message out. And so from my personal experience, what I've also been noticing is that as I'd mentioned, because we all went through a relatively traumatic time last year when COVID 19 first came on the scene. Many of us had friends or relatives who had passed away from COVID 19. There was an added element of fear and an element of what's going to happen to me now that I've got the infection? What's going to happen to me Now I've had these longer term symptoms and I think there's some time that I spend with patients also just helping them to release that anxiety, that hidden trauma which may have come from that experience and to then get to a place of acceptance. Because every type of healing begins from that place of acceptance. First that, okay, it is here. But if we continue to resist what we're experiencing and are in a state of fight or flight about Illness itself that can only make things worse. I think a deep level of acceptance is something that I've also found really helps patients. And many patients have been misunderstood, haven't they? I mean, I remember when me and CFS patients in the 80s, they used to call it yuppie flu, which was such an unfair title for it. And people said, oh, it's just depression or it's in your head. And in the same way, many people are misunderstanding what COVID 19 or long Covid actually is, which is, you know, a chronic illness, a real physical illness with real physical symptoms in the body. And I really hope that if there are still people out there, maybe doctors or friends, relatives, who think, oh, maybe it's not real. We can absolutely assure you the research is very clear from me. CFS and also the initial research on long Covid of real physical illnesses in the body. Measurable huge amounts of inflammation in the body, in the brain, the symptoms of breathlessness, extreme fatigue, post exertional malaise, inability to exercise or do too much. These are all real physical symptoms. Shona, did you notice that in terms of any of the clients you worked with, was there any kind of lack of acceptance or was there any upsetting feelings because people weren't understanding what they were going through or were dismissing their experience?

Yeah, absolutely. And, yeah, absolutely. People not understanding family members sometimes, you know, work environments, not wanting them to be there anymore because they don't believe that they're even sick. But then there's. There are a lot of other people who have supportive communities that do understand that post Covid is real. They're real symptoms, and they are getting the support they need. And a lot of doctors are referring people with post Covid to the Gupta program because they're seeing the similarities between chronic fatigue syndrome and post Covid. But, yeah, a lot of anxiety with some people initially because just that fact, they feel completely misunderstood.

Yeah, yeah. No, it's something that, you know, we're training all of our coaches now to be more aware of long Covid, more aware of what the similarities and differences are and how they can support patients back to recovery, which is, you know, which is why we're here. There's literally millions now who are suffering around the world from this, and we hope that we can just make a small dent in the suffering that's being experienced right now. Yeah. Okay. So what I wanted to do was now move on to some of the science that we've been reviewing in terms of a review of the literature on the similarities and differences between me CFS and long Covid. And for those of you perhaps who are new to this, long Covid is when patients following a COVID 19 infection have longer term symptoms for at least 8 to 12 weeks. So I believe there's no actual definitive time, but generally I think people are working on 60 to 90 days as a minimum period of time at which people have the symptoms to be then classed as having long Covid, although there's nothing official right now. And what I've done is I just put together a few slides in terms of some of the literature, some of the findings, and I just want to share that with you now. And so a recent systematic review of the literature found that when they reviewed 21 studies, they found that 25 of the 29 symptoms found in ME and chronic fatigue syndrome were also found in long Covid. One of the defining characteristics of ME in chronic fatigue syndrome is what we call post exertional malaise, which means that when people exert themselves, and that can be anything from cleaning the dishes through to some physical exercise, there's that malaise afterwards. So that can hit them straight away where they feel extreme exhaustion, sometimes bed bound or housebound, and that can last for a few hours right through to days and weeks following some kind of exertion. So a real crossover that was found in this particular study by Wong and Weitzer and then a very interesting study by Lenny Jason, who I know personally, they did once again a review and also comparing long haulers to ME cfs and some of their findings are very interesting. So they found there was a similar crossover of the types of patients but they were seeing. So in me CFS you have between 70 to 80% are women and they were finding a similar percentage of women versus men being diagnosed with long Covid and an average age, once again between the 45 to 55 age range in terms of the peak, although it can impact on all ages. I mean, in fact, we had somebody who was in their early 20s, just at university who was struck down with long Covid. And it seems from the research that long haulers, their symptomatology starts out worse than the average person with ME cfs. So the first few months are quite intense and the most intense symptoms tend to be the immune symptoms, which makes sense because there is an insult or a challenge to the body, which is the COVID 19 infection and it's beginning to be fought off. But those immune symptoms seem to be much worse in this first few months. Sore throats and fevers and also some of the cardiovascular and Orthostatic intolerance type symptoms are worse in the early months and obviously breathing difficulties being more predominant in Long Covid. And I'd like to refer to this chart that was created by Court Johnson from Health Rising. So this is where this particular chart came from, which used the, I think it was the DePaul questionnaire. So this from DePaul University questionnaire looking at the intensity and frequency of symptoms. So in the first column here we have Long Covid initial, so the first few months of Long Covid, then long Covid after five and a half months, and then people on average with ME and chronic fatigue syndrome. And as you can see, on average, the numbers are very similar in terms of across the board, whether it's initial or longer term. But the one that really stands out are the immune symptoms. So the sore throats, the swollen glands, the fever are the immune symptoms. So you can see it has a score of 44 with long Covid initially and then comes down to 20 for long COVID patients. After about five and a half months, people with CFS, they've got a score out of 128, so showing that those immune symptoms seem to just relieve themselves over the months. And also some of the neuroendocrine symptoms, so that some of some of the autonomic symptoms, like difficulties dealing with hot and cold or hot flushes or that kind of thing, beginning to also slightly relieve later down the line. But actually, in general, you can see there's a slight decrease in these scores, but overall still pretty high and still pretty comparable to people with ME cfs. So I hope you find that useful, a useful chart to compare the symptoms. Thanks to Court Johnson from Health Rising for that analysis and some other analysis, similar results to the Leonard Jason study. There is Holt and Wild Wing. They found that the severe neurocognitive symptoms actually got worse over time. So those can be the headaches, some of the difficulty thinking, concentrating, that improvements happen in certain areas. But their particular study found that neurocognitive symptoms actually got worse over time. And finally, there have been some French studies with brain scans and they found hypometabolism in the limbic system. So hypometabolism is where certain brain structures are not using as much glucose. And they found that in the thalamus, the amygdala, the brainstem and the cerebellum. Cerebellum was where a lot of sensory processing occurs. And this is obviously quite interesting. So we can see that there are changes in the brain directly in patients With Long Covid, and obviously as part of the Gupta program, Just to give you a bit of background to how we see Long Covid and what our hypothesis behind it is, I can just bring up a chart here. We believe that in Long Covid and many of these types of what we term neuroimmune condition syndromes, there tend to be precipitating factors that bring on this type of illness. So at number one, we have some predisposing factors. Those can be genetic, they could be anything related to personality traits. They could be related to upbringing or things that we find difficult to define right now. But perhaps more on the genetic side then at number two, we have acute or chronic stress. And although in this circle it says acute psychological stress, actually this can be physiological stress, it can be emotional stress, it can be biological stress, can even be over training. So we have seen people who are not stressed in the classic emotional sense, but have been over training physically and have been more prone to getting long Covid, you know, marathon runners and people like that. And finally, at number three, that viral trigger being the COVID 19 infection. Now, most of the time when this happens, the brain and the body are able to enact a defensive response, which involves the immune system and the nervous system fight off that virus and go back to balance. So then our health returns, you know, a few days after we've had a virus. But in the case of COVID 19, we are finding from the research that between 5 to 30% of patients with COVID 19 infection are going on to get longer symptoms, 60 to 90 days minimum, afterwards. Now, why is that? Our hypothesis says that what's happening is there is a conditioning event occurring. Now, what that means is the brain learns something new. Now, from a logical perspective, our brains and bodies are designed for survival. We are survival machines. And if perhaps someone in the run up to getting the condition had been perhaps exhausted in some shape or form, pushing themselves a little too hard. As we've talked about the acute or chronic stress that may have been occurring in the run up to having the condition, the immune system has to work harder to fight off the virus. And in doing so, even once the original infection has been removed from the body, the brain may still be responding as if the virus is still present and now may be responding to what we call conditioned stimuli. That means things or situations or characteristics of the original event and which now become conditioned stimuli. That simply means the immune system gets triggered if this thing is present. And that might be symptoms in the body itself. And this causes what we call the vicious cycle of ill health. So we believe a trauma occurs in the amygdala and insular part of the brain. And this has been shown in animal studies on conditioning effects on the immune system, which then at number four, causes chronic stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system as well as chronic stimulation of the immune system at number five. And that means we have inflammation in the body and we know that from the research that's happening in COVID 19 over inflammation in the brain, which may be causing some of that hypometabolism and once again, you know, surging of cytokines in the body. All of these things then go on to leading to chronic exhaustion and a depletion of the body, because the immune system is not meant to be triggered chronically for long periods of time and the nervous system itself as well gets overstimulated. So there's chronic sympathetic arousal, then number five, that leads to the symptoms. So we've got the muscle dysfunction and pain, the cognitive difficulties, sleep issues, post exertional malaise, and then of course gut issues. So many people suffer from irritable bowel, varying between diarrhea and constipation. We may have those swollen glands and breathing difficulties, difficulty thinking, a whole host of symptoms. And there may be secondary cycles at number seven, such as the mitochondria not functioning according to what they should be doing, latent virus or bacterial reactivations, more sensitivities in the system and those symptoms get pass back to the brain at number eight, where the brain is chronically sensitized to those symptoms and sees those as a conditioned stimulus that is learnt to respond to that stimulus. So at number nine, the brain says, I knew it, I knew we were still in danger. Let me chronically trigger the immune system and nervous system again at number five to ensure survival. And then we get caught in this vicious cycle where the brain and the body are constantly responding to each other in this vicious cycle, causing ongoing illness for weeks and months. So this is our model of how we see these types of chronic illnesses as described for COVID 19 as well. Long haul Covid. And one of the things that we strongly recommend, if you yourself get COVID 19 infection or you know, someone else that does, we believe that part of the reason this system also gets triggered is if somebody doesn't take the time to fully rest after the illness, and that's not to blame anyone or, you know, this is just something that happens sometimes, we can become very motivated to get back to work as quickly as possible, get back to physical training as soon as possible. But the body isn't ready. And in that sensitive, vulnerable state, it begins to overstimulate those defensive responses again and get stuck. It's like our immune system and nervous system get stuck in that over response. And the purpose of the Gupta program and the neuroplasticity approaches is we retrain the brain out of this particular vicious cycle. Shona, anything you want to share as we have this diagram on the screen right now just from your experiences in working with clients and how they feel about this process.

Well, I just want to add to what you were saying. A lot of clients report that when they, a lot of people actually recovered from COVID and then they went back to work right away or they were caring for others or attended Black Life Matters protests, they weren't completely well, they were just kind of on the fence. And then they got post Covid. To reiterate what you said, I think it's just so important if you do get Covid to really give yourself that time to heal. But yes, they report that they had stress in their life and they should have taken that time to recover more.

Very interesting. Yes. So if you're watching this right now, we'd love for you to share this on your social media. So please do click share under the video window and please share it on your personal page. Perhaps other groups, other long Covid groups so we can get the word out there that there is this working hypothesis as to what may be causing long Covid as well as a treatment program designed to support patients through that. And just to let you know a bit more about the Gupta Program, this is an online brain retraining neuroplasticity program that can be done anywhere in the world and we have some initial research on it as well. So we have published randomized control trials on the treatment. So recently we published an RCT on fibromyalgia and our treatment as applied to fibromyalgia patients and it did show a very good result compared to the control group. And this was just an eight week intervention. But there was a 40% drop in fibro scores in the active Gupta program group, but a zero effect in the control group. So we're beginning to do more research studies now. We are going out to do more research and finally show the power and effectiveness of the Gupta program in treating these kinds of chronic illnesses. And if you want to find out more information, you can go to our website, which is gupta program.com and there you can take a 28 day free trial. You can find out more about our program, how it applies to your condition. Watch lots of free videos and there's audios as well, and you can give it a go. And if you do choose to do the Gupta program, until we get the large randomized control trials, we do offer a one year money back guarantee on the program, no questions asked. So can't say fairer than that. You can give the program a go if you've got Long Covid or perhaps some of the other illnesses that we treat. And if it doesn't work for you, you have no impact. Please, you can return it, get your money back and use that money for another treatment. And we're doing that because we do want to prove this with the larger phase three randomised controlled trials, which is what we're working on right now. So, Shana, anything else you'd like to share with our audience in terms of your experience with these Long COVID patients or any advice you may have for them?

Well, I guess I just really want to encourage any of you that do feel hopeless to try the Gupta program, this neuroplasticity program. Yeah, I don't want to sound like a salesperson. I just, I really. Because I've worked with so many people who have recovered, I just want to give you hope that it is possible to recover. And people will say, I took this program to recover from post Covid, but it's actually been the best personal development program that I could have ever taken as well. And they are able to manage many aspects of their life in a healthier way in the end as well.

Thank you, Shota. It's been an absolute joy to have you live on our show. So thank you for taking the time out. Really appreciate it. I know that you're going to stay with us as we start the next Facebook Live in a couple of minutes on the same page where we'll be doing a Q and A on Long Covid. So specifically, questions please, about Long Covid and we'll be doing that shortly. So once again, I just want to leave by saying thank you for watching. Please do share this with anyone you know who's experiencing Long Covid or any of the groups and really just give them that hope that however awful you feel, however difficult and challenging the symptoms are, there are ways of getting better. Whether it's our program or other pathways, people do get better and you can do it too. That's a real message of hope that we want to leave you with. So thank you so much for watching. From myself and on behalf of Shona and we look forward to seeing you next time. So thank you and goodbye. And once again, we'll be seeing you in a couple of minutes on the the same page that you're on with a new Facebook Live with our Q and A. So please do stay for that as well. Thank you and goodbye.