Mast Cell Activation Syndrome (MCAS) | Ashok Gupta | Beth O'Hara |

Hi everyone. Welcome back. And I'm so excited to have Ashok Gupta with us today. He is the developer and the founder of the Gupta Program. He's also an internationally renowned speaker, filmmaker and health practitioner who has dedicated his life to supporting people through chronic illness and achieving their potential. And Ashok suffered himself from some of the same things that those of us with mast cell activation are dealing with, and particularly something called me, which we usually know in this space is chronic fatigue syndrome. That was going on around 25 years ago. He was studying at Cambridge University and he was doing neurological research and managed to get himself 100% better. Then he set up his own clinic to treat others and published his his well known recovery program known as the Gupta Program. And that's actually been out since 2007. And he's also published several medical papers and is continually researching these types of conditions that we're dealing with. And you can find out more information at his website@gupteprogram.com and he also published a popular 4.7 star rated app called the Meaning of Life Experiment. And this is a 30 day program of videos and meditations. So thank you so much, Ashok for coming on. We're really excited to have you and I've been getting lots of emails ever since I announced this and Facebook messages and comments that people really looking forward to talking with you today. And just thank you again for coming on. We talked about the parasympathetic nervous system and we talked about your program and we talked about the psychoneuroimmunology axis. And for those of you that weren't on for that one, that is all about how our mind states affect our nervous system, the immune system and the hormone system. In my practice, when I see people one on one, I tell them that about a quarter to a third of our work is going to be working on targeting foods and supplements. About a third to a quarter of the work is going to be cleaning up the environment, making sure we're not in toxic mold, toxic chemicals, EMFs. But a full third to half is going to be this parasympathetic balancing and working on a program like the Gupta program. So can you tell us more about your program, Ashok, and how it can help people with mast cell activation and histamine intolerance?

Of course. Beth. Well, first of all, thank you for that wonderful introduction. That's very, very kind of you and it's wonderful to be here. And I've been actually had a look at a lot of your work and I think it's great how you're supporting patients in this area because they don't have many places to go or many sources of information. So you've got a great set of information on your website. So it was really interesting to look through. Yeah, I mean, we have been involved in helping people initially with chronic fatigue syndrome. So we launched our program in 2007, and we were the first brain retraining program that was available online at that particular time, was actually available by DVD at that time, and we were mainly focusing on chronic fatigue syndrome. But we then truly found that people with fibromyalgia were benefiting, people with chemical sensitivities were benefiting, people with POTS were benefiting. So many different related conditions. And eventually over the last few years, we've had lots of reports that people with MCAs were benefiting as well from the brain retraining. So it's been a kind of natural evolution of more and more people being aware of different conditions that it can potentially treat. And essentially, if I may just start with kind of first principles, I think the hope I want to give to patients with this condition is that actually there is a way through. Many people do get better. And I think that, as you rightly say, we want a holistic approach to treating this condition. This condition is not in the mind. You know, it's not psychological in any sense, shape or form. But I believe that it's actually in the brain and the nervous system, as you point out.

So I just want to clarify what you're saying, which is there's a difference between something being in your head, in your mind, which a lot of us have been told repeatedly because our labs are normal, we don't look sick. And then we're told over and over, well, this must be in your mind. You must be attached to being sick or those kinds of things. Whereas you're talking about what we're looking at is actually a neurological part of the brain, part of the nervous system, disturbance that can be shifted on a biochemical and structural level.

Absolutely right. And we call These conditions, especially MCAs and related conditions, NICs, neuroimmune conditioned syndromes. So they're neurological in the sense that they're in the nervous system and the brain. So the brain is obviously the head of the nervous system. They're immune know, because often they involve overstimulation of the immune system in some shape or form. They're conditioned in the sense that the brain has trained itself to overreact. And obviously in the case of MCAs, those mast cells have. Well, we don't know why. Well, I'll share a hypothesis. But they are overreacting unnecessarily. And syndrome in the sense that people's symptoms or package of symptoms is individual according to each patient, which makes it very puzzling. So that's why we call them these nics, neuroimmune condition syndromes. And within those raft of different conditions, we've noticed that many crossovers exist, which makes us think that they all come down to a core situation in the nervous system, which is overstimulating the nervous system, the immune system, the endocrine system, and therefore draining a person of energy. And overstimulating these defensive responses.

Exactly. This is, I give a metaphor of the mast cells are like the guards of the castle. Gate of the body is a castle. And so their job is to sense if what's coming in this chemical, this food, the supplement, whatever it is, if this is good or bad for the body. And if it's bad, their job is to attack it, surround it, and then call the rest of the immune response in. And then if it's something that should be good, let's say a banana or a piece of beef or anything like that, if that is friendly, it's supposed to let it come through. But when we have, what's happened, especially in the last 30 years, is that we have this onslaught of exposures to chemicals, electromagnetic fields. I didn't have cell phones or WI fi routers when I grew up, but it's hard. You can't find a home without those anymore. And then mold toxicity, because of the way we're building our buildings now, they're so well sealed and we get condensation and mold has become a major issue. And when we're surrounded by these things all the time, it's like the mast cells don't get to take a break. And so if we had a guard that was on duty 247 for six weeks in a row and just constant onslaught, you know that that guard would get sleep deprived and wouldn't be able to recognize anymore. They wouldn't be able to think correctly. And so we get that kind of misfiring, mis programming and overreaction. And so the mast cells aren't just shooting at the enemies. It's like now they're shooting at the butterflies.

That's a really nice analogy. And it's so funny, Beth, because I use a very similar analogy when I'm describing these types of conditions. If I can just use your analogy and add something, especially for the Game of Thrones generation, Most people are fans of that, so they understand this kind of analogy. You're absolutely right. We are overreacting or over responding to our environments because of the number of toxins that we have. So based on our evolution, we lived in very clean environments. Suddenly in the last 20 or 30 years, the pesticides, the pollution, etc. Means that our systems are on guard all the time. We have this what we call an over inflammatory response or an inflammatory bias, which drains of energy, which is why the average person in the population complains of fatigue regularly, because their systems are fatigued from the environment and from stress. Now that guard that you've talked about that's at the gates stopping people from coming in. Now those guards, as you say, are sleep deprived because they're constantly being attacked. Every now and then, what I believe is in that state of fatigue that those guards have when an onslaught does happen. So there is an invading army, let's say that guard is so tired and so traumatized that he over or he or she over responds to, to that incoming trigger. So the mast cells as an example, stop firing off, firing off, saying defend the system, defend the system. Because why are we here? We're here because our brains and our body prioritize survival, Survival, the number one priority of our nervous system and our immune system. So then with this overreaction, eventually that army may be fought off it our sleep deprived state of being that guard or that defensive line. But then once the guards fight off that incoming invader, they're in a state of trauma. So we talk about psychological trauma, but actually we're using physiological trauma as the analogy. So we know that the brain already does this kind of thing. That physiological trauma is now anything that remotely reminds me of that invasion last week, what we call the initial sensitizing event. Anything that reminds me of that, I am going to over respond. Why is that? Because my priority is saving the castle, keeping these gates closed to any invaders. So even if one invader comes along that looks remotely similar to the guy that came last week, we will get all the defensive systems of the castle ready and primed and just react and fire out those arrows, as you say, and defend the castle. So essentially these nics, these neuroimmune condition syndromes are when that final line of guards has become traumatized to anything that remotely reminds it of the traumatic experience it went through where survival was under threat. In the case of ncas, it may well be exposure to a chemical or a mold. In the case of me, it's often flu, virus or A cold, virus or stomach bug. Fibromyalgia is often pain, a pain injury localized in the body, which generalizes. So each person has a combination of symptoms based on the initial experience which triggered this traumatic response. And then from then on, it continues.

And many people in this audience know exactly what you're describing as something called cell danger response, which says quite a lot of research and literature on. And I. You know, I so wish I had found your program back when I was starting to work on this side of my own health. So I'd had a number of early traumas, a lot of tick bites. I had Lyme and bartonella and Babesia. I had mass activation from a really early age and just so many things hitting my body. So I crashed in my early 20s and then just struggled, struggled, struggled. But I turned to yoga, became a yoga therapist, did lots of meditation, did lots of personal growth work, development work, and all of that helped. And especially the breathing practices. Learned all kinds of different breathing practices. But what I love about your program is that you've taken all of these different elements and you've put it into something that's step by step by step. And I've stepped through your program myself, and it's fantastic. So I. Before I knew about your program, I thought for years, we've got to get something out for people with mast cell activation that teaches us. Teaches them this side of it, the. The mind state side, the breathing side. And you. You do all of that. You have all of these exercises. And I got the online program, and then it came with this book that has all the printed exercises in it and transcripts of all the videos so you can go back through and take a look at what. Remind yourself what the tools are. So it's really incredible how you've put all of this together.

Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. It's been, you know, a lot of hard work. So it was 10 years in the making. So we spent 10 years working with lots of different types of patients before we published our program in 2007. And that was because it took time to refine it, to refine it, to refine it, to make sure that it worked for most of the people most of the time. And on top of that, we know that people have brain fog. They often find it difficult in terms of the mental processing, of taking in too much information. So it had to be set out in a very simple way. And also the videos are designed to be healing in themselves, so it's not overstimulating. It's a Calm, relaxing background. It's short videos. So we hope that we've made it so something that's very accessible for people and is holistic. So I think, as you've mentioned, in medicine, we've got so used to this reductionist philosophy, which is there's this one thing wrong in this part of the body, in this cell. Let's fix that. And sometimes brain retraining can be the same way that right is this problem in this part of the brain. We need to fix that and everything's going to be fine. But it is a holistic approach. We are holistic beings. So we don't want to fall into the same trap that traditional medicine falls into. And therefore, we do look at diets, we do look at supplements, we do look at reducing overall toxicity in our environment, whether that's physical, mental, emotional, and gradually allowing people to pace themselves back to health. So at the root cause, yes, we do believe that it is an issue in the brain where the brain is over firing. But as the brain over fires, it also causes symptoms in every cell and muscle and organ of your body that also need to be given some space and some rest to heal it in and of themselves. So I think combining those approaches can be very beneficial.

It's huge. And I have a number of people who are incredibly sensitive in my practice. I have people who can't take any supplements, or it takes us months to get five things on board, or they're reacting anytime they're near a cell phone or they any stress will send them into a major flare. They're having trouble eating any foods. And so I have people that are down to 10 foods or they're down to five foods. I have people down to two foods that they can tolerate. And so this is the first step that I have them take is to start with the Gupta program, especially if we can't work from the supplement angle. And it's. I've seen remarkable results. And I bring in three different components. So an active component of really working with perceptions, working with the breathing, everything that's in your program. So that's why I send them to your program for that. And then we do a passive support and a vagal nerve physical exercise piece. But it's that, that piece that I start with. And I can't tell you the amount of positive feedback I've had. And we've got a lot of positive feedback people are posting here. Dee said that this guy is fab. I'm from the uk, have his amygdala retraining program I found him really helpful for chronic fatigue. And Millie posted that some people who have COVID 19 are having post viral fatigue syndrome. What do you think about that, Ashok? Are you seeing that and are you seeing people using your program?

Well, as your viewer just said, it's too early to see it being classed as ME or chronic fatigue syndrome, which is at least six months. But what we are seeing is that in some of the research, especially from China, a certain percentage of patients are still having chronic fatigue and post viral fatigue many months after they contracted Covid. And the likely reason for that is exactly what we've described, that when you have a quite intense virus that impacts on the body, the body can then go into that hyper defensive mode of not fully switching off the immune system just to make sure that it is completely cleared. Another theory might be that there's certain reactivation in the body, but we have no evidence for that. But certainly sars, which is very similar to this particular virus. They also had many people who had chronic fatigue syndrome afterwards. So I think it is important that anyone you know that has Covid is to treat it seriously and spend enough time recuperating. So this is the key thing to stop ourselves getting post viral fatigue. As soon as we get the condition, drop everything deeply, deeply rest. And even after you think you've got over it, don't jump back into work because that will trigger that defensive guy to get overstimulated. Instead, rest, rest, rest until you feel fully well rather than trying to, you know, we live in an achiever society, which is right, let me jump back into working again or do this or do that. But it's really resting so that you don't get post viral symptoms.

And I often find I have a busy mind and so it'll be hard for me to just lie down in the middle of the day and just rest like that. And so I really like using the guided meditations that you have in the program and they step you through how to relax. I had Covid in January before we knew that it could have been the United States. And I was very exhausted for a number of weeks and then felt fine. And we had a water leak in our house and ended up with a mold situation. We had to remediate and boom, the fatigue was just right back, really intense, crushing fatigue. And what you're recommending is, is what I did and it really helped to just go relax, listen to those meditations. And there's a difference between lying down and napping, lying down and reading or watching a TV show. And doing the kinds of meditations that you have. Can you, can you talk about why that's different?

Yes. So we all like to rest and we do rest in many different ways. But are we truly resting? So even when we're perhaps sitting down or lying down, our minds still may be busy. Even if watching tv, our minds can be busy. Even when we're going for a walk in the countryside, our mind can be busy. But what meditation says is actually you're consciously relaxing in the sense that your mind is still fully awake and aware. But very gently, you're observing your thoughts. And in that process of observation, you allow thoughts to come up from your subconscious and dissipate, come up, dissipate. Now normally you want to grab onto them, but it's been shown in study after study. And when they analyze the brain, there's a unique state that you're gradually, that your brain gets into a result of regular meditation. And that's, you know, very, very therapeutic for our system. So it's what we call conscious alert relaxation.

And I think also the tools that you learn that you can apply in day to day life. And so before I started working on these types of tools, I was fairly high strung and very reactive and so, and somebody could look at me funny and I would feel stressed out. And it was just my nervous system was on such high alert all the time. And people often tell me that my voice is soothing or I seem really calm. And that was very hard. 1. It wasn't something that was a natural part of who I was before I started with these kinds of tools. But I find that it's extremely helpful when I get a stressful email or there's conflict or anything like that. If I didn't have the type of tools that I've learned, like the ones in your program, then I would be flared up again right away. But it helps me just come back to the present. Come back to the present. Or if there's something that's immediate and urgent that has to be problem solved. I don't have to get escalated about it. I can just stay in the present. Okay, well what are we going to do about it? Like the mold that developed in the house, you know, we bought this house because it didn't have any mold and then had a water leak and all of a sudden got mold. And so I could freak out about it or I could go, okay, like I did have a little meltdown. And then afterwards I was able to go, well, what, what are the steps we can take? What are we going to do, to fix this. And that's quite. That takes a lot of training to learn to do that.

It does. And also it's something which we are naturally born to do. I think with practice, just like, let's say swimming or learning to ride a bike, with practice, it becomes second nature. And I would say that actually with some of our meditations, we've made them so simple that even someone who's new to meditation, within just listening to them a few times, they can gradually settle in to that more relaxed state. And just to give you a bit of background to what's going on there, the reason that meditation can support the healing in the brain and the nervous system is because we get what we call different neurons getting tied together. So that's part of neurological conditioning or learning. So we know that neurons that fire together, wire together. So if you've got this neuron firing, just like in classical conditioning, and another neuron firing, if they keep firing at the same time, the brain is very efficient, so it starts wiring those two things together. So in mast cell activation and many similar conditions, what then happens is the stress system response wires together with the immune system response. So we get coupling of those two wires. Then that means that when we're getting stressed, naturally, our symptoms get worse. And I'm sure many of your clients share that idea. And therefore, by reducing the stimulation of the nervous system, we are also then able to reduce the symptoms overall, which is why there's a. There's a kind of connection there. So it's not, once again, that this condition is psychological in any way. But what's happening is we are calming down these coupled up neuronal firing in both the amygdala, so a brain structure called the amygdala and a brain structure called the insula. So we call this type of treatment amygdala and insular retraining, because we believe that that's where the core conditioning lies. And to give you an example of this, which I think you know, you may find very fascinating, a lot of neurological research done by A doctor called Dr. Paquero Lopez. He has found that when you give rats sweet water and an immunosuppressant and you repeat the experiment many times, eventually just giving them the sweet water, their immune system gets suppressed. Now, when they analyze these rats brains over many different cycles, they find that that core conditioning occurs in the amygdala, but mainly also in the insular part of the brain, which is fascinating because this is what we've been talking about for many years. And now we've got that verification in the actual studies. And therefore it is likely that not, it's not conclusive proof, but it's likely that in humans as well, it is our amygdala and our insulus where that neurological storage is occurring. That's the part of the brain that is saying this is dangerous. We need to defend and react. And if we can just persuade the brain and train the brain that these symptoms or these triggers are no longer dangerous for the brain, no longer dangerous for the body, through this brain retraining, neurological restructuring, whatever we want to call it, neuroplasticity, taking advantage of neuroplasticity, then eventually the brain will get the message and calm down those responses overall.

And I think this was really powerfully demonstrated in a case study that I read, and correct me if I get some of the details off, but there was a case study of a woman who had a severe immune condition. And she had been on really high dose prednisone and other immune medications for a long time. And she couldn't stay on them because her immune system and the rest of her body was getting so affected by the side effects. And so in that what they did because they had to take her off of the medications was they mixed up this really strong flavoring, bright, bright purple solution of the medication and had her listen to particular music and it had a particular smell. And she had her take the medication in that solution for a week. And then at the end of the week, they tapered off the medication pretty quickly, but they kept the solution color the same, the same smell, the same immune system continued to have the same response as it was to the medications without any of the medications. And I thought that was so powerful in terms of the effects of association and how we can use our perceptions even to strongly impact the immune system.

Yeah, it's fascinating. I'm glad you shared that. You know, every medication we take, there's a certain mental expectation which combines with the medication. So as an example, similar, I suppose a similar experiment that you've described there, when they give patients pain medication but without telling them there isn't such a response in terms of the pain reduction. But when they tell people that they're giving pain medication and tell them that this is happening, there's much more of a response. But if they don't give the pain medication, then there's not a response as well. So it is a combination of our expectation of what that medication will do for us. There's a consciousness is involved as well as the Actual medicine itself, they both actually work together. Which medicine can't get its head around or traditional medicine certainly can't get its head around because it just doesn't make sense. But it's because our nervous system is integrally involved in the physiological responses that it predicates or that it stimulates in our system.

Right. Well, this all ties in with a question we have from Pam that I wanted to make sure we got to. And she said she was really excited about the interview and her question was she has multiple chemical sensitivity. I know a little of this backstory. So mold developed in the bedroom and mold, all the mold had been remediated. But she feels like she has some PTSD with the room. Even with it all taken care of, she's still reacting when she goes to the room and she's wondering how she gets rid of that PTSD kind of response. And does she sleep in there? I'm not exactly sure what this was. Should she start meditating in there? Should she stay there and sleep in the night? Regardless of symptoms, but just accept the symptoms. One thing I would say is just make sure that that mold is gone. But then once those associations are in place, which is really common with mast cell activation, what do you see working for people to start to rewire those associations?

It's exactly these associations that we use the program for. So it's not just our reactivity to the trigger, but also anything which is associated with the trigger. So that essentially would require brain retraining. But I think initially what you can do is make that room look completely different. So if you want some practical tips, first of all, paint the room a different colour with a non toxic paint, of course, very natural. Move the furniture around, buy some new furniture, do whatever you can to make that room look completely different so your brain doesn't associate the same anchors with that space. That would be the number one thing. Secondly, visualize, and this is part of our program, but I'll kind of talk about that now is imagine being in that room and being calm and relaxed and enjoying that room and reducing the association with other things. Yeah. Now obviously that's more powerful with formal green retraining. But if someone wants to start with something initially it's imagination and visualization really feeling calm in that space. And yes, as she said, I would advise probably not meditating in that room, just using that room for sleep and reducing time in that room. Until a person feels that they've really retrained their brain out of those anchors.

That that's great. That's a really brilliant thought on how to shift that with that room. And we have sent a follower of ours. And she says, does this help with mastocytosis? This is an immune condition. It's a genetic condition where there are too many mast cells. And I can certainly see that this would definitely have the same benefits and be even more critical in mastocytosis. It tends to be more significant types of symptoms than mast cell activation syndrome.

I would say that we haven't had enough feedback to really verify that. Now, obviously, a lot more people suffer from MCAS than that particular condition. So I don't want to say right now that we've had definitive evidence of that. What we do say is that our program is an overall program for healing and rebalancing the nervous system, the immune system. So let's take an example of, let's say hypothyroidism. Yeah. Now, that may well be a symptom of a lot of these different types of nics neuroimmune syndromes. But we know that people, just by doing our program, have been able to heal or certainly reduce their hypothyroidism. So in the same way, we can rebalance our systems by putting a lot of these processes into effect, such as long deep meditations, such as brain retraining, holistic living, they can all support rebalancing.

And then we have a question Michelle's asking. Does this program help with vertigo from a traumatic earthquake event?

Yes. So it helps with anything where the brain is anxious about a previous event. And that can be an emotional event, a physiological event that then it is still. We know that people, just by doing our program, have been able to heal or certainly reduce their hypothyroidism. So in the same way, we can rebalance our systems by putting a lot of these processes into effect, such as long and deep meditations, such as brain retraining, holistic living, they can all support rebalancing.

And then we have a question Michelle's asking. Does this program help with vertigo from a traumatic earthquake event? Do you have any thoughts?

Yes. So it helps with anything where the brain is anxious about a previous event, and that can be an emotional event, a physiological event that then is still responding, just like I've described neuroimmune condition syndromes. So in the same way, if you've been through a traumatic event, the brain is far more programmable when the event is traumatic, and therefore dizziness, vertigo, not being able to be up high, those can all be something suddenly get trained in the Brain as a result. And certainly our program, we believe, could. Could help with that.

And then another question here from Sid asking, have you seen results with POTS and dysautonomia? And these typically go right along with mast cell activations. We often see these, not always, but we often see a triad of mast cell activation, hypermobility and POTS or dysautonomia.

Yes. We have many people who have healed from those particular conditions using the program. There's many crossovers because once again, I think POTs and dysautonomia are yet again downstream symptoms of an underlying pathology. So the POTS is not the cause. It's yet another symptom of an overstimulated and imbalanced nervous system.

And then we've got some other questions here. Sin's asking, how is this different from other meditation practices? And then Sandra asked, how is it different from DNRs?

Okay, so our program incorporates three aspects, what we call the three Rs of retraining the brain, relaxing the nervous system, and re engaging with joy. The three Rs of the Gupta program. Now, the fundamental aspect of it is retraining the brain. So the fundamental aspect is not meditation. Meditation is a kind of supportive tool because we know that when we meditate, the brain is more neuroplastic, it's more flexible. Changes is easier when we're meditating. So that's why we ask people to meditate and support their healing. But the core of it is definitely brain retraining. And in terms of how our program is different from DNRs. So I think the main difference that people tell us about the feedback that we get is that I think our program is probably incorporates more aspects of well being or is a kind of broader spectrum, ask people to meditate and support their healing. But the core of it is definitely brain retraining. Yeah. And in terms of how our program is different from DNRs. So I think the main difference that people tell us about, we have the brain retraining, but we also look at diet, we look at sleep patterns, we look at pacing, we look then at parts in terms of once you do go back to a normal life, once you do recover from our program, how are you going to make sure that you keep stress free and not go back into the achiever or helper mindset or overstimulating your nervous system? So I think from the feedback that we get, that we get is that I think our program is probably incorporates more aspects of well being or is a kind of broader spectrum. So we have the brain retraining. But we also look at diet, we look at sleep patterns, we look at pacing, we look then at parts in terms of once you do go back to an we're much broader in the sense of the range of topics that we cover to support that healing. It's not just the brain retraining that we think would get someone to 100%.

And someone else was asking about if you'd meditated for years with this normal life.

Once you do recover from our program, how are you going to make sure that you keep stress free and not go back into the achiever or helper mindset or overstimulating your nervous system. So I think from the feedback that we get.

Still be helpful. And I can just speak from my own experience of having been a meditator.

For we're much broader in the sense of the range of topics that we cover.

20 years that there were so many additional tools and exactly what we're talking about the re. Re engaging with joy and. And these. The retraining aspects that aren't built into meditation on their own. And I'm wondering do you have time.

For just a couple more questions to support that healing. It's not just the brain retraining that we think would get someone to 100%.

And someone else was asking about if you'd meditated for years, would this still be helpful? And I can just speak from my own experience of having been a meditator for twins before we wrap up.

Oh, happy to be here for as long as you would like.

I just didn't want it 20 years that there were so many additional tools. And exactly what you're talking about. The re. Reengaging with joy and the retraining aspects that aren't built into. Push into if you had something else after this.

Oh no, I'm very happy. I'm enjoying it.

Great. So we do have some questions about how does this work for chronic infections from infections like Lyme and Bartonella Meditation on their own. And I'm wondering do you have time for just a couple more questions before we wrap up?

Oh, happy to be here for as long as you would like.

I just didn't want to push into if you had something else after this.

Oh no, I'm very happy. I'm enjoying it.

Great.

Okay. When people get these types of.

So we do have some questions about how does this work for chronic infections from infections like Lyme and Bartonella.

Okay. When people get these types of conditions they've often had exposure to a virus or a Pathogen or a bacterial infection combined with stress. So either chronic or acute stress. And the combination of those two things, as I said, gets neurons to wire together. So the immune system conditions they've often had exposure to a virus or a pathogen or a bacteria, and the nervous system start wiring together. Now at that particular point in time, infection combined with stress. So either chronic or acute stress, the system may still fight off the Lyme and whatever, another infection. But often these become opportunistic infections. So even once they've been fought off, if the system has not rebalanced and come back to its original setting, the immune system may be unnecessarily firing off. We still may have over inflammation in the body and therefore opportunistic infections, those viruses, those bacteria like HHV and all these kinds of things may start flourishing in the body. And certainly from our research in chronic fatigue syndrome, we know that opportunistic infections are rife and they actually mimic. And the combination of those two things, as I said, gets neurons to wire together. So the immune system and the nervous system start wiring together. Now at that particular point in time, the system may still fight off the Lyme and whatever, another infection. But often these become opportunistic infections. So even once they've been fought off, if the system has not rebalanced and come back to its original setting, the immune system may be unnecessarily firing off. We still may have over inflammation in the body and therefore opportunistic infections, those viruses, those bacteria like HHV and all these kinds of things. Pick the opportunistic infections that are in patients with autism. And autism is seen as a condition where there is an overstimulation of the amygdala. So there are certain crossovers, there may start flourishing in the body, certainly from our research in chronic fatigue syndrome. So our program is designed to rebalance that system, to strengthen the immune system as much as possible, whilst at the same time calming the nerve. We know that opportunistic infections are rife and they actually mimic the opportunistic infections that are in patients with autism. And autism is seen as a condition where there is an overstimulation of the amygdala. So there's certain crossovers there the system down. And what that enables our system to do is then recognize opportunistic pathogens and clear them out of our system. So it's not about whether the immune system is triggered or not triggered, it's about the efficiency of that immune system, its strength of the immune system. Sometimes people Mistake a triggering of the immune system for its strength. Actually, if it's inappropriately triggered, you won't be able to find or fight off the opportunistic infections.

That's a great way to describe it. And there's an additional facet that I often see with my practice where people have actually cleared the infections, they've cleared mold toxicity or whatever they're dealing with, but they're still having the symptoms. And again and again, what we see is it's because the nervous system dysregulation and that aspect of the cell danger response hasn't been addressed. So the cells are still in this kind of PTSD response that we talked about earlier.

Yes. And you know, the hope that I want to give to people is this is a software problem, not a hardware problem, as I often describe it. You know, many people with MCAs, MCAs have been told, right, there's no way you're ever going to get better. Yeah, there's no cure for this. You know, you just have to sit it out and deal with it or go and live in a caravan in the middle of Arizona so that you can't be exposed to any chemicals, which is not. It's a hard life and it's not going to help. What it does is deeply entrench that conditioned response even deeper into your nervous system by avoidance. So the good news is that people do heal from these conditions. And also something that may be controversial but is important for people to get over, is the idea that these triggers in our environment, although we want to live a cleaner life overall. Yes, we want to reduce the amount of chemicals that we're exposed to in life. We want to be eating healthy foods, organic foods. We don't have so much processed foods in our diet. At the same time, people with mcas, it is an over response, it's an overreaction. And, and the more that our brain is putting the blame and the fault on that chemical or that food, the less empowered we are was when we recognize that it's not specifically that food or that trigger or that fragrance which is the cause of this issue. It is my over response to that chemical. And I have the power to, to be able to retrain my brain not to over response. So there's a kind of cognitive dissonance that sometimes occurs in people with these conditions where, hang on, it's definitely that causing that. But how can you say it's my brain? It is both. And yet the most important aspect is our own brains over response to those triggers. And that can be changed. And that's the empowering message I want to give to everybody.

And that is such an empowering message. And I just want to hit a couple more and we'll wrap up. So we always have such an engaged audience and we'll have questions going all night if we don't pause at some point. So I'll try to go back in and answer as many as we can afterwards as much as I can get to. And I understand some people are asking how can they get involved and at the top of the description and it'll be in the in the comments as well. So Ashok was lovely to give us a $50 off coupon code for the program. And that Coupon code is mass cell360. Let me see if I can but it has to be used with the correct link. Let me see if I can drop this back in because we've got several people asking how they can join. So I just dropped that back into the comments and that's also in the description for today. So let's just take a couple more questions and then we'll let you get back to your evening. This is from Kate and she says thank you for doing this interview. My question is how can your program help with weight loss?

Okay, so our program isn't specifically designed for weight loss, so I'd probably say better to find a program that is specifically designed for that. At the same time, once again, when we take those three R's retraining the brain relaxing.

This is from Kate and she says thank you for doing this interview. My question is how can your program help with weight loss?

Okay, so our program isn't specifically designed for weight loss. So I'd probably say better to find a program that is specifically designed for that. At the same time, the nervous system reengaging with joy, I find and certainly our patients find they naturally head towards their what we call their ideal weight or their ideal body shape, which is the most healthy body shape for them. So once again, if you have once again, when we take those three R's retraining the brain, relaxing the nervous system re engaging with joy, I find and certainly our patients find they naturally head towards the their what we call their ideal weight or their ideal body shape, which is the most healthy body shape for them. So once again, if you have mast cell activation, then yeah, use the program and you may find as a beneficial byproduct you also reach your ideal weight as well.

And I'm going to try to hit on just two more. I know I said last Two. But we had two. Really.

As long as your guys would like mast cell activation, then yet use the program, and you may find as a beneficial byproduct, you also reach your ideal weight as well.

And I'm gonna try to hit on just two more. I know I said last two, but we had two. Really. One person was asking, can this help with too much dopamine? Another person was asked, one person was asking, can this help with too much dopamine? Another person was asking, does it help with too much epinephrine? And given that those are aspects of stress chemicals, I would expect that the program could. What do you think?

Yes. So we find this very interesting experience that many patients find, does it help.

With too much epinephrine? And given that those are aspects of.

Stress, we find that in our patients, in terms of the science, they have.

Originals, I would expect that the program could.

What do you think, used dopamine reactivity or reduced dopamine availability in the brain, perhaps even reduced receptors. We're not sure where exactly the shift is occurring, which means it's difficult to motivate oneself. It's difficult to feel excited about something. And I'm sure many of your patients will feel that. What happens is they do the brain retraining, and they get their health back. The energy starts coming back, they start feeling better, and for a period of time, they feel very flat emotionally, and they wonder, what's going on here. I thought, I feel great after feeling, you know, getting rid of all these symptoms, there's a period of time where the dopamine then begins to come back to normal dopamine levels. And we find that people then use our program continually and gradually. The positive mood comes back, their motivation comes back, but it takes a bit of time for the repair and healing to happen with our dopamine and dopamine receptors. Now, in terms of noreperforine, generally, people say, is this a condition where there's overstimulation of noradrenaline and adrenaline, or is there an understimulation? Yes. So we find this very interesting experience that many patients find. We find that in our patients, in terms of the science, they have reduced dopamine reactivity or reduced dopamine availability in the brain, even reduce receptors. We're not sure where exactly the shift is occurring, which means it's difficult to motivate oneself. It's difficult to feel excited about something. And I'm sure many of your patients will feel that these particular chemicals. What's really happening is there can be imbalances from what happens is they do the brain retraining and they get their health back. The energy starts moment to moment, day to day. It's difficult to give an overall broad range statement saying people will always have increased levels of noradrenaline or decreased levels. It can vary from day to day. So therefore coming back they start feeling better and for a period of time they feel very flat. It's about rebalancing and yes, if there's too much noradrenaline emotionally and they wonder what's going on here. I thought I'd feel great after feeling, getting rid of all these. That is an overstimulation which keeps the brain on hyper alert, which then means that people find it hard to relax. But then when they do finally relax, they then find that there's lower levels of those particular chemicals which there's a period of time where the dopamine then begins to come back to normal dopamine levels. And we find that people then use our program continually stops them from being able to think clearly. So the program is designed to rebalance. Then gradually the positive mood comes back, their motivation comes back, but it takes a bit of time for those particular.

Levels of chemicals, which I found really helpful. And so things like Clostridia can cause high levels of dopamine and then that can lead to higher levels of or it actually causes high dopamine, low epinephrine, norepinephrine.

So you can get repair and healing to happen with our dopamine and dopamine receptors.

Now, in terms of norepinephrine, this wired, tired feeling, and of other things, there's some genetic variants that can affect that. And so having something that just takes the edge off can really help. And we know that stress is particularly.

Generally.

You see people say, impactful for gene expression. Angela has a great question here about can retraining the brain help?

Is this a condition where there's overstimulation of noradrenaline and adrenaline or is there an understimulation of these particular chemicals? What's really happening is there can be.

Imbalances from gene expression.

There's not a lot of research necessary on whether brain retraining changes gene expression. But we do know that meditation massively changes gene expression and many inflammatory markers for gene expression are reduced. So we're talking about using diet moment to moment, day to day. It's difficult to give a, you know, an overall broad range statement saying people will always have increased levels to reduce inflammation. But in fact, meditation can be incredibly powerful at Reducing that overreactivity of the immune system. So yeah, as far as future research goes, and as you know, we're looking to raise of noradrenaline or decreased levels, it can vary from day to day. So therefore it's about rebalancing. And yes, if there's too much noradrenaline in the money for future research, we want to do lots of research in this area. Certainly gene expression, cytokine response, histamine response, these are all things that we'd love to have as part of a study.

And there's actually, there's a lab in the uk, in London that is doing epigenetic.

That is an overstimulation which keeps the brain on hyper alert.

Epigenetic testing. It would be so interesting to have someone do the epigenetic testing before which.

Then means that people find it hard to relax but then when they do.

Finally relax for doing retraining and then retest afterwards.

Exactly. I think that would be really interesting. I think the challenge is with patients that I've seen in terms of these studies, there's no one, they then find that there's lower levels of those particular chemicals which stops them from being able to think clearly. So the program is designed to rebalance some pattern that people can say definitively defines a particular condition. So I think that is one of the challenges with that kind of study, but I think it's still very, very valuable.

Well, I just really want to thank you for taking time out of your super busy schedule to be with us. And we're going to continue to have more questions if you ever have a.

Chance to pop those particular levels of.

Chemicals which I found really helpful and so think and want to take a look. Like I said, I'll answer as many as I can. There's a number of them that we, things like clostridia can cause high levels of dopamine and then that can lead to higher. We couldn't get through today. And I'll get back to what I can, but we'll see if we can get some of those over to you. That I'm not able to answer.

Absolutely. And I just wanted to add, you know, we know that when people have these types of conditions they don't have.

Much levels of or it actually causes high dopamine, low epinephrine, norepinephrine. So you can get this wired, tired feeling. And there's a number of other things.

There's some genetically necessarily they haven't been working for a while. And so, you know, as you know.

We would love variants that can affect that. And so having something that just takes.

The edge off people to try our program. And we give that one year money back guarantee. So we say try our program. If it doesn't benefit you, you can return it, you can get your money back and that means you can then spend that money on something else. So we really want to make it risk free for people and really hope that they get to use it and really help.

And we know that stress is I think that's a wonderful thing that you're offering. And then the $50 off that we have for people and we have the link and there are a lot of people on here. Our practice is full for this year. There are a lot of people on here that would love to get an appointment or either can't get in because we're full or finances are a concern. And so what we're working on impactful for gene expression. Angela has a great question here about can retraining the brain help improve improve gene expression?

There's not a lot of rolling out.

These kinds of steps so that people can get started on basically the first three to four months of what I have everybody step through. And this is always in phase one.

A research necessary on whether brain retraining changes gene expression. But we do know that is the Gupta program.

So it's in my template Phase one Gupta program. Here's the link, here's how to get it. So I just want everyone to know that so they can be working on these things.

And the other meditation massively changes gene expression and many inflammatory thing that I.

Shared when we did the parasympathetic. But I see there are a lot of people on here that weren't on there was my reactions, my mast cell reactions show up first in my hands and my fingers will swell and I can watch it and I can watch it when I'm stressed. So it could be chemical exposure or anything like that. And so I've done experiments where markers.

For gene expression are reduced. So we're talking about using diet to reduce inflammation. But in fact meditation can be.

I'll start thinking stressful thoughts to see what's going to happen with my hands.

And take incredibly powerful at reducing that overreactivity of the immune system. So yeah, as far as future research goes and as you know we're looking.

To raise myself down a spiral like oh my goodness, the mold that we've got in the house is never going to get cleaned up and so on and so on. And this is going to affect My health. And if I keep going, I'll watch the knuckles swell. But then I can start using the type of tools that are in your.

Program money for future research. We want to do lots of research in this area. Certainly gene expression, cytokine response, histamine response. These are all things that we'd love to have.

And within about three or four minutes after having gotten those tools under my.

Belt, part of a study and there's.

Actually, there's all I can start shifting that mind state and I can feel my body shift from that sympathetic dominant if we want to call that over to more of a parasympathetic state. State do this calming, do this reminding of myself that everything's okay. The lab in the uk, in London that is doing epigenetic and re engage with what's working with my life and that'll just disappear. It's really remarkable. And so that's what I use when I, when I have reactions.

Absolutely. You defined, you know, one of the ways that we treat MCS and mcaf, epigenetic testing.

It would be so interesting to have someone do the epigenetic testing before doing retraining and then retest afterwards.

Exactly as is when that reaction occurs. We give you specific tools that you can use in the moment to allow that reaction to pull back. And by definition, Beth, it's so interesting you've defined. I think that would be really interesting. I think the challenge is with exactly what we've talked about that those neurons are firing together. The one that is stimulating your mast cells and the one that's stimulating the nervous system, sympathetic nervous system firing at the same time. So when you calm down the parasympathetic, you remove one aspect of that co firing. And then patients that I've seen in terms of these studies, there's no one. Secondly, when we retrain the brain, we're reducing that second aspect or the first pattern that people can say definitively defines a particular condition. So I think that is one of the challenges with that kind of study. But I think it's still very, very valuable aspect which is the core aspect, which is that immune system response directly by this brain retraining. So it's amazing that you described it in that one experiment that you've done on yourself.

Well, thank you again for joining us. I want to thank everyone who came on with us live today. Well, I just really want to thank you for taking time, time out of your super busy schedule day and everyone who's part of our community and we have just a lovely, wonderful community here and I'm so glad that you joined us to be a part of it.

It's been wonderful to. To speak with you and also to answer the questions and yeah.

Beth, as wonderful to be with us. And we're going to continue to have more questions if you ever have a chance to pop.

Wonderful work you're doing with patients. You're already giving people hope who are often ignored by the medical profession.

So hop in and want to take a look. Like I said, I'll answer as many as I can. There's a number of them that we.

Yeah. Keep up the good work. It's great.

Thank you so much. We couldn't get through today and I'll get back to what I can, but we'll see if we can get some of those over to you that I'm not able to answer.

Absolutely. And I just wanted to add, you know, we know that when people have these types of conditions, they don't have much money necessarily. They haven't been working for a while. And so as you know, we would love for people to try our program and we give that one year money back guarantee. So we say try our program. If it doesn't benefit you, you can return it, you can get your money back and that means you can then spend that money on something else. So we really want to make it risk free for people and really hope that they get to use it.

I think that's a wonderful thing that you're offering. And then the $50 off that we have for people. People and we have the link and there are a lot of people on here. Our practice is full for this year. There are a lot of people on here that would love to get an appointment or either can't get in because we're full or finances are a concern. And so what we're working on is rolling out these kinds of steps so that people can get started on basically the first three to four months of what I have, everybody step through. And this is always in phase one is the Gupta program. So it's in my template Phase one Gupta program, here's the link, here's how to get it. So I just want everyone to know that so they can be working on these things. And the other thing that I shared when we did the parasympathetic. But I see there are a lot of people on here that weren't on there was my reactions. My mast cell reactions show up first in my hands and my fingers will swell and I can watch it. And I can watch it when I'm stressed. So it could be chemical exposure, anything like that. And so I've done experiments where I'll start thinking stressful thoughts to see what's going to happen with my hands and take myself down a spiral. Like, oh my goodness, the mold that we've got in the house, it's never going to get cleaned up, and so on and so on. And this is going to affect my health. And if I keep going, I'll watch the knuckles swell. But then I can start using the type of tool, tools that are in your program. And within about three or four minutes after having gotten those tools under my belt, I can start shifting that mind state and I can feel my body shift from that sympathetic dominant, if we want to call that over, to more of a parasympathetic state. Do this calming, do this reminding of myself that everything's okay and re engage with what's working with my life and that'll just disappear. It's really remarkable. And so that's what I use when I have reactions.

Absolutely. You defined one of the ways that we treat MCS and MCAS is when that reaction occurs, we give you specific tools that you can use in the moment to allow that reaction to pull back. And by definition, Beth, it's so interesting. You've defined exactly what we've talked about, that those neurons are firing together, the one that is stimulating your mast cells and the one that's stimulating the nervous system, sympathetic nervous system firing at the same time. So when you calm down, the parasympathetic, you remove one aspect of that co firing. And then secondly, when we're retraining the brain, we're reducing that second aspect or the first aspect, which is the core aspect, which is that immune system response directly by this brain retraining. So it's amazing that you, you described it in that one experiment that you've done on yourself.

Well, thank you again for joining us. I want to thank everyone who came on with us live today and everyone who's part of our community. And we have just a lovely, wonderful community here, and I'm so glad that you joined us to be a part of it.

It's been wonderful to speak with you and also to answer the questions. And yeah, Beth, wonderful work you're doing with patients. You're really giving people hope who are often ignored by the medical profession. So, yeah, keep up the good work. It's great.

Thank you so much.