Let's talk about WordCamp Asia 2023 - S02/E10 | M Asif Rahman | Utsav Singh Rathour | WCKOLKATA

All right, Asif, Nice to meet you after so long.

Yeah.

So, yeah. How you been?

I've been really good. Like, it feels good as we started to have, like, what camp After a long time.

Right.

And these three years, I think, like, that was very hard for community people like you and me. Right. We are used to. In, like, organizing meetups and editing meetups.

Meeting people and stuff.

Right, right.

Yeah. Yeah. So back in action then, after the pandemic.

It feels good. What do you think? Like, why you decided to actually come to Kolkata.

Okay. Yeah. To give a context. So we're at World Camp Kolkata, so. Yeah, it's just that, you know, the feeling of community, and then again, the Kolkata community being so supportive of our community back in Kathmandu as well. So I just wanted to meet people, help, problem as well, and meet people like you. I mean, we know. We know at least a few people that that would be coming. We were definitely sure of that. So, yeah, networking, basically. Yeah.

You see, this is very interesting because when what came the concept started, it was always meant for, like, improving WordPress or, like, connecting people locally in the city.

Exactly. Right.

But nowadays, like, a lot of us, like, even me, we are also meeting, like, what, Kathmandu. Right. You invited me, I spoke, and we went there, and that's how we became friends. And probably we'll meet a lot of in other Word Camps. So ultimately, you see, in this part of the world, people are actually traveling a lot to attend Word Camps, and I think it will increase more with time.

Yeah. Sorry, I've got a little cough.

So.

Yeah, so regarding that, I just wanted to shift to one question that I had in mind. So I see that you've been sponsoring a lot of wordcamps. Right. As a company, that's something. Not exactly a financial burden, but it does add to the finance of the team. Right. And then you've been traveling, and you've not been traveling alone. You've been traveling with a team. You've been taking your team members to different places. Maybe some are sponsored, maybe some are not. I'm not totally aware of that, but yeah. So you've been doing that. And why is that? I mean, what. What is it in you that initiated that, that kind of feeling, that, okay, I should be attending more wordcamps, I should be sponsoring more work, as many works as I can, and then taking the team members. How did that start?

Actually, there is like, two part of it, like, why we sponsor or why we push people to attend more. You see, like, for us, like, Nepalese or Bangladeshis, for Us traveling is costly, right? When we have to attend, like what can you rope? So for us the travel cost is very hard. We are actually doing that and we are also like sponsoring events so that do part fast part is actually giving back to the community. Like for me probably is very different. I do not see WordPress just as a way to make money. It's my passion. I'm doing this for right now. It's officially almost 19 years. So this is the only thing I know very well. This is the only thing I do out of passion. So besides cricket, that's like my main passion. So I do attend what camps also because of travel. I will talk about that later. But so first part is actually giving back to the community. I see the diversity part of it, bringing more people in, showing people the kind of joy WordPress could bring. Attending WhatCam is one of the first thing that actually helped me to understand the community, get more connected with the people. True. My like out of 10 best friend, maybe most of them will be from WordPress and that actually comes from WhatCamp attending several times. So that's the first part. Second part is like, you see my company, WP Developer, we are mainly very young people. Like our average age of my team is actually below 30. So they're actually like building their lifestyle with the company. So I do feel like traveling is not just because you go to a new place, it also about how you meet people, how you adopt their lifestyle, what you learn, what you actually take back from the travel. So ultimately we insist on traveling, we insist on attending what camp. To give you an idea like how far we do like in our company, beside all the casual leave, annual leave, marriage leave, we have a WhatCamp leave. Anybody who is actually attending a WhatCamp, sponsoring a WhatCam, volunteering in a word camp, or speaking in a WordCamp, they have like paid leave from the company. And if somebody is selected as a speaker, if somebody is selected as organizer or volunteer, company will bear all of his cost. And for traveling like places that is very close to the country, like Nepal or in Kolkata, company bears a portion of it depending on like how many people we are sending officially, some of the people are coming, they are not officially sponsored just because of the the kind of like idea they have got from the team. Like even in this time in Kolkata, we have like I think 17 or 18 people. A lot of people did not got the visa in right time. So they will not be able to attend.

Right.

But some of them are not from our marketing team, Some of them are not from our support team. So in general, like when company sponsored, they send people from the marketing team or support team. So we have a lot of people from very diverse team, like development team, admin team. It's just because they love the WordPress and the community that's kind of the joy we want to actually promote. So it's two part.

I've seen that as well. Everyone that comes from your team or some other companies in Bangladesh, it's like they've understood that it's not just their work, but it's also community and getting to know people. So they like talking to people, they like interacting, they're always very friendly, very welcoming. I've seen that.

You see like this is volunteering, right. Whatever we are doing actually for WordPress is all in our free time, in our free mind. You can't actually push people to that. So I know like some of the companies, including the largest one, they put people on volunteering when they pay them for that. So that is something you could do. You could actually hire somebody and ask them like, don't work for me, work for like something I ask you to. Right. I do feel like there has been difference like what you could do in this way and what you could do in your own mind. So we just want to give people the options. If the money is a struggle, then we could actually try to help. If the time to get like leave from the job is any struggle, we could actually try to help in that. But other than that, I want this to be their choice. I don't want to actually like put people on the job descriptions. The your job description is asking you to actually travel to what camp. That could also happen. That could happen sometime.

Right.

But I want people to feel motivated to connect to people. You don't actually sell things on what camp. Right, Right, exactly. The volunteering does not actually get you anything. You do not get a job for that. So it's like that decision is very tricky. I understand when you ask from the business perspective so why you do that. And you do not always have to actually think about the return you get from attending or like sponsoring. So we are trying to push in that way and also in the same time when we are actually having more presence, when the people are having more diversity, I think it will help the company in one way or another.

Right? Yeah, very, very true. So yeah, kind of maybe that's the core of the WordPress community as well, where we, we've always been talking to each other about giving back to the community. I think that is why WordPress is where it is right now is a. As a software, as a community, everything. And so, so many people coming here, contributing. Right. Even, even in Kolkata, like I think you mentioned that there are a lot of people from outside of Kolkata. That are here. So yeah, that's everyone volunteering and stuff. So yeah, it's nice to know and especially companies like yours giving back to the community and then helping with the sponsorship because again that's a very important thing as well for any event to happen. So that's a very important thing that clears a lot of things.

Try to think in this way as well. Like right now we have a lot of global sponsor, right?

Yeah.

Try to think if we do not have that, could we actually sustain local bot camps? But we need to be prepared for that. So from foundation, the way I see it, we need to try to be more independent. We need to try to be more like less dependent on the foundation because now it's like harder economy. 2020 was like very hard year for the foundation for the WordPress. So if we could breed in more local sponsor, bring in more contributor donation from local community and the only way we'll see it if local community is flourishing through WordPress. So they need to get success. And I personally feel like Nepal and Kathmandu is one good example how only few people who are actually working in WordPress for very long time was able to push more people into WordPress and guide them. They got like good job, they built a good company and ultimately they are able to give back to the community. So it's the same thing.

Yeah. And, and how's it, how's the community back in your home? So how's it in Dhaka, Salat or around those areas? I think you also had a meetup recently, right? Yeah.

So in Bangladesh most of the things are very centered towards like Dhaka. That's by, by the like geography and the way country operates. But obviously we have more potentials to bring in like more local community. In Silet when they're planning to have like meetup, the main struggle they have, they have only like two or three companies who are sponsoring, who are actually organizing. So right now the way we are trying to do is the same way that Nepal people actually did. They are like few core national like organizer leaders, also companies who are able to sponsor. We are actually to push WordPress in all other parts of Bangladesh centrally. So local people, they could organize, they could invite us, they could actually ask our for donations or like sponsorships and we will actually help out. Even like I think it's important for not only for Bangladeshi community. I don't know like if you know the first Kolkata meetup, it happened actually I was one of the organizer. I was one initiative.

Yeah, yeah, right.

So the local community is very good. They're very connected. They're very good people. But the thing is they are feeling like they need some organized people or like experienced people or they need someone who could actually pull the things together. So I did actually almost nothing. I just actually talked to everybody. We try to actually connect them. Few of them did not have like international experience in attending what camps or organizing things. But I do see like what Camp Kolkata is one of. Very organized one. They are very nice people, very friendly people. So ultimately they do not need a lot of help. But ultimately it helps other community when you could actually push things from different places. So that's what we are actually doing in Bangladesh as well.

Okay. So while we're talking about Bangladesh, I just want to move a little outside of just being around the wordcamp. So I'm not sure if anyone has already told you about this or not, but the way we see it or people outside of Bangladesh say, looks like the community is very well knit, well knit, and they're very close. Like you guys are helping each other in companies and probably because of that, I'm not sure how it works in the inside, but from outside it looks like you guys are helping each other very much. And then. Which is why the team, the WordPress community has grown so much in the last few years and then the product teams have been doing so well. Is it because of the community or how's that?

Just out of curiosity, obviously community. But try to think like the first meetup we started to organize, it was back in 2012, but we did not have any WhatCamps before 2019. So it took me seven years to organize a WhatCam. So there are like a lot of good things. And we started to have very large meetup. Like one of our meetup that will be officially called as a meetup. But we had over 1200 people. 1200 people back in 2014.

Okay.

So we are having a lot of like large WordPress related event for very long time. But we, we face a lot of like hard time in terms of really organizing a webcam that's from the foundation and falls our local community. So as the local community is very connected, we also have our own differences. The main problem is like when you have too many people, it's hard to balance in different things. So we have our own struggle. But at the same time by core hard we all love WordPress so things are actually moving faster. And you see like the same way in we have seen tons of like theme company coming out from Nepal in a certain time. It's because you have like more experienced people. You organize like workshop, you help each other the same way. The the first few product company when we started we are like kind of probably inspired a lot of other people, young people and in. In some other cases like somebody worked in a like product company for five or eight people. He gained experience, he started on his own product company. That also actually how it actually spread it. And now it's very interesting that like if you rank like top 20 plugin company, I think like several will be from Bangladesh in terms of the download. In terms of the like revenue. We are very lucky in that. And the same time I feel like it's not only one single thing is community is the people. Obviously we try to help each other. We also have same kind of politics and local issues that we see all through the Southeast Asia. But the way I have seen like I have lived in US for many years. I'm involved with WordPress for very long time. I do feel like this subcontinent India, Bangladesh, Nepal, Pakistan. We still have not made justice to the power we bring into WordPress. We have tons of more left to do. Like maybe you could see some of the companies like Zoom Shaper or like Theme WP Developer WEJ and all the other companies because we have one or two good big product. But I think like you will see much more than that. You will see like much bigger product coming out from a single company. And like it probably has to do with the support of the community, the kind of like motivation they have. The way we are actually trying to push the entrepreneurship and other things. We obviously help each other like try to think in this way. So somebody else made like LMS kind of solutions. My company doesn't make that but I made a tools that actually help people to build website. So I could easily help that company to bring in more user and he could do the same. So we tried to help in many different ways and ultimately it actually helping each other. I do feel like you will see tons of growth in terms of the service company world as well. In Bangladesh we do not see a lot of like service companies. I think like in India they have more service companies than product company. There is only 2, 3 like large product company. So we will see a lot of those growth as well. And maybe for Nepal like they did not move out from the theming business when they should have, because the theme business became like very thin. So it's all about probably leaderships and the community. Right? Yeah.

Okay. Okay. So moving forward. So we're in Kolkata and we're probably meeting again in WordCamp Asia in Bangkok.

Right. Just in two months.

Right, in two months. Too many WordCamps happening. So it's been a good few months. Right. So yeah, let's talk about WordCamp Asia. I mean, I know you are among one of the early initiators of it. I've heard that you guys met at some wordcamp us. I think Sakin was also there. Sam was there. Now code that was in 15. Rahul Bansal. Yeah, 2015. Yeah, probably 2015. Sakin had mentioned about that. So tell me something about that period of wordcam ACM before we go to.

They say in that time, the concept of having a regional WhatCam was not actually very clear because we just actually moved to a firm where we are actually not accepting, like nationwide WordCamp. In the time there was a plan from the Netherlands, but that was not approved in the time. So like beside what came us or what came Euro. Because you see, like the time we were talking about, that was the time when we had the first WhatCam us. Before that it was WhatCom San Francisco.

Yeah.

So in that time, me, Rahul, John, we are actually talking about it. Like, is it time that we could actually start the discussion? Because it takes a longer time. Then in WhatCam Singapore back in like 2017, that is the time when we actually officially thought about like applying and like how. How to do which could be a better city. Right. You and I both actually worked very hard back in like 2020, the work. And that did not happen. But you guys, you actually did much more than that. Because I backed out at the end because it was taking like too long. It was a lot of work. And I really appreciate of all the organizer lead organizer volunteers, like, picking up a what camp in that stage and making it a success in a regional level is a lot of lot of work. I really appreciate, like even your energy, your hard work, because you are doing that for very long time. It's a lot of work and we did everything. Still, the WhatCam did not happen just in the last week. I really feel bad. We all took a lot of heat in the time. It feels really good that in 2023 we are going to have a very good work camp. And I'm very happy that we are organizing in the same venue. We have almost the same people More people. And I am putting everything possible for WhatCam Asia. I'm very excited. I am trying to bring my whole team 100 people. And it's very hard to plan, very hard to communicate and all those things.

So you're trying to bring in the whole team?

Yeah, we have a charter, a plane, so we are trying to do that. But the struggle we have, like, still Bangladeshi people need a visa to get to Thailand. And nowadays visa is getting very harder, so we are trying to actually communicate with the embassy. We have already got a permission to have, like group visa for my companies.

Okay.

So. But this is a lot of struggle. So we are trying to actually being in like, a lot of people. We are also trying to help a lot of other Bangladeshis in terms of, like, giving them advice, how to apply visa, how to get approved, how to like, book hotels and other things. So I really want to see maybe 300 or 400 people from Bangladesh in what came Asia. That probably would make it justified because the main point of having a, like regional WordCamp, if it's a thousand people, what camp? Or 2,000 people. What camp? We want to see like about 70% people coming out from the country right outside. The only way it could happen if India have like a lot of people going in. Bangladesh has a lot of people going in. So let's see. We're trying to make it like a movement that you need to actually go to Thailand.

There are a lot of people going from Nepal as well. So, yeah, I think Bangladesh and India have the most number of people coming in and we are at third or fourth, I think.

But Nepal, do they need to have a visa?

Yeah, I think we do, we do. We do need a visa.

India, there is like on arrival or E visa kind of thing, so it's easier for them to travel.

Yeah. But getting visa is not that hard for from Nepal. It's. It basically takes four days and almost most of the time it's approved. So. Yeah, so shouldn't be a problem.

Very bigger community.

Yeah, right, exactly. Okay. So, yeah, Worldcam 2023 is happening in February and like you said, you're taking your whole team. You're also sponsoring, I guess.

Yeah.

So everything over there is again, giving back to the community and the larger picture. Right. So when things like global sponsorship isn't available, or if it's available, but it's not as much as it used to be for, then we need some, some. Someone. Some companies coming up and doing it.

Right.

So, yeah, thank you so much for doing that.

Yeah. Like, would Love to actually do more. And I think like we are inspiring a lot of more people who are, I see a lot of smaller companies I'm sure like they're financially not very well off but still they're sponsoring, they're sending people. So that's like good things that started to happen.

Kind of builds a chain so that yeah other people start taking that out.

If like something I would like to see in Asia if you ask me, I, I, I do think like the way the tech community has like grown in past 10 years in what Cam, especially after actually coming back from Europe. It was a very good webcam. It was a large webcam, very nice venue, very well organized. That is probably the first what camp I have seen where they have all the professional people like distributing swag, doing the like the food and the security and other things. They have like good agency and vendors to handle those. So that's how it should be for a larger event like more than 2,2,500 people. So in Asia the one thing I would love to improve, See improvement is like the value of the sessions, the education of the speakers. Something when I do try to compare going out from the WordPress community. For me like attending WhatCam was never like just a financial things or doing partnerships or things I attended just I always feel like hey what if and what camp is happening in neighborhood I would always attend. But when I see the value of like other events, not in what camps, all the other like take events, I do feel like we could do much better in terms of the speaker quality, in terms of the content that we build or take back from the event. So I would love to see that what Cam Asia we have like better quality sessions, better education for the speakers so they could really add value to the events and networking part will be always there. People will obviously enjoy. That's a very good venue. That's a very organized event. I'm sure it's going to happen. It's by the river. It's a very nice place.

Yeah, it's, it's a nice venue as well. I, I, even though the wordcam got cancelled, I did go there so I went around the venue as well. It's a nice place to be. So yeah and I hope the speaker teams put in that effort as well. So they've been working hard. The recent speaker announcement have come out so it looks nice. It looks like it'll be a good event. Right? Okay. I think yeah, most since all the tickets are sold out it seems so probably we won't be having many tickets. Maybe a batch of ticket. Maybe. We're not sure if something remains, but then all the tickets are sold out, so. Yeah, I hope it's going to be a good event and we'll get to meet so many known faces there as well. Like, I'd be definitely seeing you. I'd definitely be seeing the team from Go with wp, so a lot of people. Looks like it'll be a good event.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

All right.

Hope to see you.

Yeah. Thank you, Asif, and thank you for being here and giving your time.

Thank you. All right.