GA 042 | Lean for Retail & Service Organizations with Josh Howell

You're listening to episode 42 with Josh Howe.

Welcome to the Gemba Academy Podcast, the show that's focused on helping individuals and companies achieve breakthrough results using the same continuous improvement principles leveraged by companies such as Toyota Del Monte and the U.S. department of Defense. And now, here's your host, Ron Pereira.

Hey there. This is Ron Perera with Gemba Academy, and I'd like to welcome you to the 42nd edition of the Gemba Academy Podcast. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen to what we're up to. And I'd also like to thank all of our existing Gemba Academy customers for your business and the trust that you've demonstrated by allowing us to help you progress on your Lean journeys. Now, we appreciate each and every one of you more than you know. Now then, today, we're going to visit with Josh Howell. Now, Josh works with our good friends over at the Lean Enterprise Institute in the role of senior coach, co learning partners. Now, Josh spends most of his time working with companies as a coach and learner. Now, he accomplishes this through running experiments that are aimed at meeting critical business challenges and solving business problems. Now, Josh works with companies in retail, full service, restaurant, publishing, and banking. And he's also responsible for the annual Lean Coaching Summit that Lei and the Lean Frontiers guys put on jointly. Now, as you'll hear during our conversation, Josh actually spent nine years working at Starbucks, where he started as a barista and eventually transitioned onto a team focused on making Lean related improvements across the massive Starbucks network. As such, Josh shares several awesome stories of his journey there at Starbucks. Now, show notes for this episode can be found over@gembapodcast.com 42. And that's 4, 2 for 42. So gembapodcast.com 42. All right, enough from me. Let's get to the show. All right, Josh, well, thanks so much for coming onto the show. Where are you calling in from today?

I'm calling in from Cincinnati, Ohio.

All right. Cincinnati, Ohio. So I am from. Grew up in Greenville, Ohio, and I'm a huge Buckeye fan.

So there you go. There you go.

Are you.

No, no, I grew up in South Bend, Indiana.

Okay, all right, all right.

So Notre Dame would be my team. We've had a rough time the last couple of years, but. But anyway. But then currently live in Boston and just here in Cincinnati for. For work.

Oh, I got you. I got you. I thought I was gonna get to rehash the national championship with a fellow Buckeye, but that's okay.

No, no, not with me, in fact. In fact, I lived in Oregon for, for five years. That's where I began. Did you really begin my time with Starbucks? And so there you go. I gotta admit, I was, I was rooting for the. Rooting for the duck.

All right, no worries, no worries. All right, so, well, why don't you start, Josh, by telling us a little bit about your background and maybe, maybe how you first came to learn about lean and then tell us what you're up to these days.

Sure. Well, let's see. So I guess kind of education career started down sort of a wandering path. I went to college, was a finance major, so absolutely nothing to do with what I now do. Then went into the family business for a few years. My grandfather had a construction business, specifically in excavation, and spent a few years there until my wife and I decided that it was time to explore the world, I suppose. So there we were in South Indiana, pulled out a Rand McNally atlas and landed on Portland, Oregon.

Okay.

So I headed out to Portland, just kind of for fun. Had never been there before, and struggled to find a job, quite frankly, looking for something in finance. I guess that was my training. So I went to a career fair one day, a Starbucks career fair, and began my nine year journey with Starbucks. Started there as a barista. Barista in a store in Portland, Oregon. Pretty quickly became a store manager and eventually joined the lean team at the corporate headquarters in Seattle. That's a little bit of the background. So I was introduced to lean while I was a store manager. Actually there were four stores that were originally selected to kind of run an experiment on lean operations in retail stores and that was quite successful. We discovered many ways to kind of increase the consistent delivery of quality products, created capacity for transaction, growth capacity for kind of better customer interactions. I discovered some ways to increase speed of service, kind of keep the stores cleaner, and all the while kind of make the work sort of easier to do. So coming out of that experiment, I joined a team, as I said, at the corporate headquarters, and essentially we sort of sought to recreate that success. Let's see, 7,000 times in the U.S. okay, 20,000 times across the globe. So that was what I was sort of responsible for or helping out with for six years then at the corporate headquarters. So a total of nine years at Starbucks, where kind of my lean journey began.

Very good. All right, well, Josh, I want to definitely explore some more of that retail and kind of a service type business here later. But what we'd like to do at the start of every show is have our guests share a leadership or continuous improvement slanted quotation that inspires them. So what quotation inspires you, Josh?

So there's sort of a quote that I like to use. I'm not a huge quote guy, but one that comes to mind, a quote from John Wooden, actually. So I kind of have a coaching practice of my own. That's what I do at Lei, and so always interested in coaching practice in various fields. And John Wooden once said, it's the little details that are vital. Little things make big things happen. And I think it's good to keep that in mind. I try to keep that in mind. Start with, you know, what is the work to be done? How do we improve that work in really a detailed way on the front lines with those who are trying to create value. And I just find time and time again that if you really dig into that detail while also keeping an eye towards sort of the system level, of course, but that level of detail really does do big things deliver big results. So very good.

Love, John Wooden. All right, so, well, so your primary experience is obviously kind of working in this retail setting. So what makes the retail sector kind of interested in lean, and how does that really all work?

What makes the retail sector interested in lean? Well, I think as really every business, probably in every sector, retail businesses certainly are interested in how to create more value and do that at the same time that they sort of require less cost. And then maybe a third thing, you know, retail businesses often, certainly a business like Starbucks is just a big company. A lot of people. A lot of people to either be engaged in helping create success for the business or. Or not, I suppose so on the value side, of course, retail sectors facing competition from Amazon and Amazon, on the one hand, and certainly where I've lived, kind of the craft movement, on the other hand, sort of the. In coffee, I guess you got the neighborhood coffee shop that's certainly competing for customers. So retail businesses are certainly looking for ways to create more value and again, at the same time do that with less cost. And so I suppose with lean thinking there's maybe not a better way that at least I know of to sort of do all three of those things. I also think there's more and more recognition, at least in my experience, that kind of the work really matters. And so even in, say, a customer service environment like a Starbucks store, you know, it's important to pay attention to the work that those frontline folks are doing, engage them in sort of looking at that, and find ways to just simplify that kind of make that easier to do, that seems to be recognized more and more, that there's just a lot within sort of the way the work is designed, the way the work is being done that does or does not allow for people to deliver good customer service.

I was wondering, can you like share some examples, just like kind of some specific examples of some improvements that you've made, either process oriented or people oriented or both.

Sure, let's see. So one example, maybe an example from Starbucks that I could share. So you know, you've got the barista and the baristas at the espresso bar is sort of what it's called. They're crafting the beverages, drinks like lattes and cappuccinos and mochas. Kind of interesting fact. The number of different handcrafted beverages that a Starbucks espresso bar might produce is in the neighborhood of a queen quarter of a million different varieties. So that work's incredibly complex. Right. And what I'm referring to really is strictly the hand work, what that barista is doing with their hands to handcraft all of these different beverages. And certainly during the, you know, the morning rush as it's called, it's just busy. It's just a really busy time. There's lots of customers, lots of activity, lots of promotion. It can be pretty challenging. But at the same time, while that barista is sort of in that challenging condition and working hard with their hands, they are also expected at the exact same time to be engaging in an interesting way, in a lively way with many, many, many different customers, many different people who are coming through. So that's of course incredibly challenging. So one of the things that we worked on while I was at Starbucks was we took a look at the work of handcrafting espresso based beverages and sought to kind of make that work simpler, more repeatable, more rhythmic, you might say, and found that if that was done successfully, that it really did in a sense kind of help get the work, the hand work, if you will, out of the way. More routine, right? Just requiring less sort of the baristas mind share. So they could apply that mind share towards what I think really Starbucks tries to do, which is create a good customer service experience. Those friendly interactions, recognizing someone by name, engaging in some kind of friendly and engaging banter. And that's hard to do when you're doing what is very complex work.

So what did you do? Was there process oriented things like reducing motion and putting things at point of use? Or was it other things like simplifying? I Don't know the menu or something like that?

No, we didn't simplify the menu. In fact, I think the menu continues to become more and more complex. I think currently there's this new promotional beverage that's been introduced called the Flat White, as I understand it. And I know enough about that drink to know that that's certainly not simplifying the beverage lineup. So mostly it was focusing on those other things that you described. So kind of a principle that guided our learning was this notion that motion does not equal work, work being that which creates value for customers. So in a Starbucks store, of course, you see a lot of motion. Folks are kind of running around and working really, really hard. But much of that, quite frankly, doesn't create value for customers. It could be eliminated if you sort of think on how to do that. So there were certainly some teaching out to the store teams around that principle that motion does not equal work. There were other things done with just the way that goods, products, ingredients flow through the store that helped reduce some of that motion. So taking a look at the layout of that station to rethink how to sort of goods flow into that station, how are they handled by the barista in preparing those drinks? And therefore, how should the station be laid out in a way that just makes that work kind of easier, more repeatable. So, you know, things just move things closer to the barista where that was possible. So, yeah, so more focused on recognizing it's a complex operation and that that's not going to change. So, okay, given that, how can we reduce motion? How can we simplify the work, make it more repeatable, more again, rhythmic is a word that I kind of like to use.

Yeah, like, what about standardization? Because, you know, I'm a big Starbucks fan and been in many, many Starbucks stores, and, you know, I do love watching them work and just kind of seeing how smoothly things go. And not all stores are the same. Obviously, the layout is different. But one thing I'm always curious about is. And for some reason it's easy for me to look at because it's at the end of the process is the little. I don't know what you call it, little cardboard sleeve you slide on so you don't burn your hand when you grab the cup. You know, sometimes they'll have it, you know, right by the last thing and the person will do it for you. Sometimes it's just right there and you got to do it yourself. I mean, an example like that, is there an effort within. And I don't mean just Starbucks. We're talking about Starbucks. But just in a retail setting, should there be like an effort to standardize that to where you know what, everyone, here's the gravity rack or whatever for this, for this, this little deal that's going to be right beside the last machine and the last step. Every Starbucks in the entire world, you're going to do it like this? I mean, is. Or is that going overboard, you think?

No, really, Ron, it's a, it's a great question. And, and really, the thing that I think, you know, that time that I was at Starbucks, we spent probably a majority of our time trying to answer that very question. The question of sort of what might the company create as a work standard, as something that sort of all stores are expected to kind of follow, versus what can be left for local standardization to be done at the store level? You mentioned a couple of things that are important in trying to answer that question, namely the unique characteristics of each and every store. So a long time ago, Starbucks made the decision to look for the best location to place stores, rather than say, a model that maybe McDonald's follows where location. McDonald's certainly wants good locations, but maybe more important for them is that the buildup of that store, build out of that store can be done in a really, really consistent way. I mean, Most kitchens in McDonald's look identical to one another. Starbucks, on the other hand, fits Starbucks stores into all kinds of different locations. Some that are as small as 200 square feet, some that are really, really large, 10,000 square feet. And that creates tons of variability in how the stores are laid out. So it was something that once we recognized that and understood that to sort of create nothing but work standards from corporate headquarters would really be an impossible thing to do, it became really important to a answer the question, what can headquarters kind of create work standards for? But then with what can't be standardized from corporate headquarters, how do we create capability within the store teams to set them up to do the best job they can with creating local, standardized work? The sleeves that you mentioned, actually, I think is a really good example to kind of take a closer look at. So the experience you described is a little bit different than what I'm going to describe, but I think it's related. So for some of the beverages that Starbucks serves, namely brewed coffee or an Americano, some of the drinks that when they're made, the water that's used is really, really hot, like 200 degrees, if you didn't apply the sleeve to the cup before dispensing that 200 degree water into the cup, you'd risk burning your fingertips. Right.

Okay.

So it is a company standard that when you're making one of those kinds of drinks that the first thing you do as a barista is place that sleeve on the cup. That is a non negotiable work standard related to safety. Okay. On the other hand, where exactly those sleeves should be located relative to the equipment that dispenses the hot water kind of within this workstations or whatever, that's an example of kind of what's left up to local standardization. Because again, there's so many different variations of those workstations that to try to do that from headquarters would just be an impossible thing to do and may lead to kind of rejection by the store teams. If headquarters is trying to mandate that doesn't create a very good partnership between the two, if you kind of know what I mean. So anyway, so there's an example anyway where we sort of said, okay, this is standardizable, if you will, from headquarters, but this other thing where the sleeve should be located specifically may not be. But yeah, it's a really tricky question. And when you're looking at literally 20,000 stores across the globe, it certainly kept us all up many, many nights.

Yeah, gotcha. Very good. Very cool. All right, well, what are some of the other challenges that you faced along your journey, kind of working in that retail sector?

Well, I think really one of them, I've kind of already spoken to it. But one of the hardest challenges, at least at Starbucks and I now have some experience with some other retail companies, is just the fact that much of the work being done takes place between two people, between a worker and a customer. Right. Might be a troubleshooting conversation, might just be friendly banter, whatever. It needs to be very engaging. And that's just not easy to do. It's not easy to do consistently and successfully each and every time. So that's part of the work. At the same time, as I said, that they're doing things with their hands, we think about, we get a lot of this learning from Toyota. You got that person on the assembly line and in the moment, as they're doing their standardized work in their 62nd tact time, really the only focus for them is that their hands are doing what the standardized work calls for them to do. There's not the person who's going to buy the car, who's sitting there wanting to talk about why'd you put that bolt in that way, or why is it that you paint the car in that pattern or whatever, that customer is not present while that work's being done. That creates all kinds of really, really interesting challenges. I think another one that is a pretty profound challenge actually is the fact that, you know, when a, let's say a plant, a manufacturing plant starts up shop in the morning, it is possible for them to know precisely how many and what variety of products need to be assembled or manufactured or created on that day. That's possible to know. Not everyone takes the time to figure that out and act on that. But it is certainly available. In a retail setting, though that's not known actually. You have historical patterns. So the question becomes how do you do this standardization? How do you create routines? How do you do the things we try to do in a lean environment? How do you do that when your demand is unknown? It's unpredictable. It just shows up. The customer shows up whenever they show up and they order whatever they are in the mood to order.

Yeah.

On that given day, particular time. Those are two incredible, incredible challenges. And then, you know, third, I guess that certainly was encountered at Starbucks and with a lot of retailers, a lot of national retailers anyways, is just the number of sites that they have. Yeah, you know, I don't know the number of sites that let's say Nissan has, but it's certainly not 20,000.

Yeah.

And so, you know, into the, to the earlier question about kind of corporate standards or work standards versus standardized work, to just the sheer number of people to the kind of variability among sites and all those things are just really pretty incredible challenges. I mean, even a company that I've gotten to know like Kroger, has 3,000 sites. You know, that's just a ton of variability to have to account for. But while those might be the challenges, I think what we have learned is that regardless, it is still possible to create routine work. It is still possible to simplify things so that that frontline person, be it a barista in a Starbucks store or an associate or a clerk in a grocery store, they can still, it is still possible to help them in simplifying their work and making that work more. Making it easier then for them to pay more attention to sort of the customer service aspect of things. Another good learning, I think, is the importance of sort of how inventory is managed throughout the retail system. Quite frankly, my experience has been that that's not often paid so much attention to, hasn't been traditionally. And of course I think we, we've learned that that's actually quite important, has direct ramifications on things like Stock outs and the amount of motion that occurs within the work and all those things.

Very good.

It's still a counterintuitive idea in much of retail that less inventory equals less stock outs, but in fact, that can be the case.

Very good. All right, well, Josh, let's go ahead now and transition into what we call the quick fire set section. So this is really where we're going to kind of just dig in and. And. And. And talk about Josh and get Josh's thoughts on some just really pointed questions here. So the first question that I have is we. We spend a lot of time in Lean talking about, you know, the two pillars, respect for people and continuous improvement. But respect for people was often hard to put your finger on. Like, what does that really mean? So what does respect for people mean to you?

Well, sort of the thought that comes to mind for me, I guess, in my own practice is respect for people begins anyway with starting from what is the work that that frontline value creator is doing. I think that's what really matters to them. There's a lot of things that we as employers might do to try to engage them and support them, things like benefits and pay and all that kind of stuff. But day in and day out, when they clock on, they come on to shift or whatever. What they're doing and what they're spending their time with us doing is work. They're running around, they're doing things. And so as soon as we can engage with them around that. Around the work to be done and support them in simplifying it, support them in kind of removing obstacles, the better off we'll be. And it's, you know, anyways, my belief that in doing that, we demonstrate respect for people. I have kind of a story, if you'd like, that I think speaks to that, actually. So it's a Starbucks story. I apologize. But it's where I spent nine years of my life, and for the longest time, the barista who would locate themselves at the register. Okay, they're the one that kind of greets you when you walk in. They take your order and they take your money, I guess. Yeah, that barista. In addition to what I just described, they also often had responsibility for things that took place nearby, other work that occurred nearby. For example, the brewed coffee station is typically right next to the register. And so they had that responsibility of doing everything that related to brewed coffee while also taking orders, transacting, as I described previously. And the work at the brewed coffee station, there's two things basically that that take place there. One is they dispense coffee. So a customer orders a cup and they dispense coffee into that cup and hand it to the customer. Right? You've probably experienced that. The other work that takes place there is re brewing batches of coffee. So at a certain point in time, or because it runs out, a batch of coffee is kind of discarded and then a fresh batch of coffee is brewed. Okay? Batches of coffee are good for about 30 minutes or so. And so. And the way that because coffee's good for 30 minutes, a timer at one time would go off at the end of 30 minutes, signaling to the barista, hey, it's time to rebrew a batch of coffee. Right? But you can imagine, just because of the randomness of life, I suppose you can imagine that there were times when that barista was in the middle of a conversation with a customer. In fact, that customer might be ordering a cup of coffee. And at that exact moment, the timer would go off, indicating, hey, this coffee is no longer good to serve. It is time to re brew a fresh batch of coffee. Right?

Okay.

And so that barista in that moment is absolutely stuck in a lose, lose situation. They have one of two choices. One is they can say to that customer, I apologize, that timer indicates this coffee is no longer fresh. Do you have a few minutes to wait? In fact, it's about eight minutes that you'll need to wait. Or would you like a different drink? Like maybe we could substitute an Americano or something else. So that's one choice that's not great though, right? The customer is let down. There might be customers behind them that are also going to be let down. They're going to have to wait for their cup of coffee. So that's one choice. The other choice is, as a barista, you sort of go, well, maybe they don't know what that timer means. And is it that big of a deal if I just go ahead and serve them this cup of coffee? It's not so expired. It just expired. Maybe it's not that bad. But then, of course, you're serving a product that is outside of the quality standards that the company set forth. And I'll be totally honest, when I was in stores, I did that, I don't know, plenty of times. I don't know exact numbers. I did that plenty of times. So anyway, so the fact that barista, that the way the work is designed, the way the system is designed, has to face that dilemma, I believe is an example of not showing respect for people actually There wasn't careful enough consideration given to. To the fact that that situation could occur. And because of that, we then put, you know, hundreds of thousands of baristas in that situation, you know, millions of times, probably, and there's really no good choice, actually, both choices are going to disappoint the customer in some way or not uphold, you know, the company's standards. And so, anyway, so later, as we kind of went through a process of redesigning the operating system, one of the things that we did was we removed that responsibility from that barista's work. So the responsibility for re brewing coffee now takes place in kind of an offline fashion by a role that some of us might know of as like a water spider or a conveyor, that person who's kind of handling replenishment and clean cleaning throughout the store. They now have that responsibility. And meanwhile that. That barista who's on the register can simply focus in on, you know, dispensing the cup of coffee, interacting with the customer, taking their order, smiling as they greet them. Yeah, those things that really matter right to the customer. So anyway, an example of respect for.

People, I think I'm a caramel macchiato guy, so I don't know anything about that brewed coffee stuff. I like. I like a little sugar and stuff with my coffee. So, you know.

Yeah, yeah. Well, the funniest thing was I was kind of sharing that story recently in a country outside of the US and as I was sharing it, I mean, they just had no idea what I was talking about, because that product, brewed coffee, is not a product that is sold in any cafe, you know, much less a Starbucks. They drink Americanos as their kind of version, that type of beverage. So it was kind of funny to be telling that story and then everyone looking at me like, what in the world are you talking about?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Very good. Hey, Josh, what's the best advice you've ever received?

Best advice I've ever received. Oh, boy. Let's see. So something I've heard now a couple of times from a couple of my teachers throughout the years is this idea that people learn best through their fingers, through what they touch. And so the advice, I guess, was, so if that's true, then how might you teach through the fingertips? How might you get the individual kind of touching and doing something? Learn by doing is certainly kind of a mantra that we often hear. But specifically, I like to think of creative ways where I can engage whoever it is I might be working with, how I can engage them In a tactile experience or touching the work, even a simulation, maybe in like a workshop setting. So I don't know. I guess, yeah.

That's great.

That's great.

What about a personal productivity habit? Do you have one that others might benefit from?

Personal productivity habit. Oh, boy. Not sure. I'm so productive. I certainly work long hours. I don't know if that's. Again, motion does not equal work, I like to say. So I don't know. I mean, I think when I'm at my best, when I'm most productive in advance of any activity, say it's a coaching visit or something in advance of an activity, I take the time to write down a plan in general, like, what am I going to do, what I hope to accomplish, and then post that activity. Exhibit the discipline to actually reflect on that plan. What actually happened? What was different from what I planned? Why did that happen? What were the results? Or some key learnings? What are the next steps? And for me to take the time, even if it's quick, but actually write that down to make that visible then to my coach, my manager, in whatever environment. Certainly helps me get better, I guess, in a way helps me become more productive.

Now, when you write, do you write with your hand or you do type?

That's a good question. That's a good question. When I'm at my best, I write with my hand. Yeah, I'm kind of old school in that way. I certainly do plenty of typing. But, yeah, I don't know again, what. I'm sort of at my best. It's typically handwritten.

Yeah. They say it's a different part of your brain when you're writing with your hand on a piece of paper versus typing into a keyboard.

All right.

Okay, Josh, so I know you've probably read tons of books over the years, and I'm just curious if you could recommend one related to kind of continuous improvement or leadership. What would it be and why?

Well, probably first I should acknowledge that I've probably not read tons of books.

Okay.

I've read enough, I suppose, but I could probably read more. Back to the productivity tip.

There you go.

Anyhow, but one book that I have spent some time with is a book on Coach Wooden called you'd Haven't Taught until they have Learned. It was a book kind of co authored by Swen Nader, who's a former player of Coach Wooden's at UCLA, and Dr. Ron Gallimore. So part of the book is Swin sharing personal stories and just sharing what it was like to Be a player for Coach wooden then. Dr. Ron Gallimore had been part of a study of what Wooden actually did as a coach. One thing that I remember, kind of just a stat that really stood out to me and caused me to reflect on how do I spend my time when I'm coaching folks, is they looked at over 3,000 discrete acts of coaching and sort of broke down, like categorized each of those as to how does Coach Wynn spend his time? And 75% of the time, which is just like an astounding figure, 75% of the time he's. He was simply providing pure information, kind of what to do, how to do it, providing instruction. Only 7% of the time did he spend complimenting the players. And on the other side, only like 6% of the time that was he actually expressing frustration or displeasure or kind of being negative. Made me think a lot, actually. You know, I guess on the one hand, how often am I equipped with an understanding of the situation, an understanding of the work, where I might even offer instruction and, you know, I guess how do I sort of, how do I break down my time? Certainly I come from experiences where there's a lot of time spent on positive reinforcement. In this case, actually, with an example of the highest levels of performance in the history of maybe sports, certainly college basketball, it was simply spent with a very knowledgeable, capable leader, a coach who had information to provide. And very succinctly and very often was simply providing that information to really, you know, maximize the performance of players. Yeah, so I thought that was. That just kind of blew me away, really required me to think deeply about how it is that I go about my own coaching practice.

What was the name of the book again?

You Haven't Taught until they have Learned.

Okay, very good.

It's a great book. It's an easy read too. All right.

Yeah, I've not read that, so I'm gonna go check it out. So. All right, so the last question I have for you, Josh, is I want you to imagine a situation that you've recently kind of gotten back into the industry and been hired as a general manager of a company who is a bit of turmoil. Their processes are a little bit out of whack and got a good product, but the day to day business isn't running well. And unfortunately you've discovered that many of the senior leaders that you've inherited aren't quite as enthused about all this lean thinking stuff as you are. So with this said, what would you do and why?

Well, I'd probably stop Talking about Lean, thinking that might be a good first step. Well, I don't know. You said the business isn't performing so well, so I'd probably want to know a little bit more about that, at least hear about it from their perspective. What are the business challenges that they're facing? One of the things they're struggling with is leaders. So I don't know. On the one hand, I guess I just want to position myself to where I can be useful to them as they're facing this challenge. And I guess as a part of that, hopefully to kind of frame up and identify some problems, to solve some challenges to meet where we might together with, I don't know, I guess my support, where we might generate some. Some early wins, some quick successes. And again, I mean, to the extent that I don't have to talk about Lean in, that process is probably probably not. Not a bad way to go. Yeah. Yeah.

Very good. All right, Josh, well, thanks so much for taking time out of your day to. To visit with us. I've really enjoyed talking with you. Why don't we wrap the show up with you sharing some final words, words of wisdom, and then tell people how they could connect with you on social media or any other outlet.

Oh, final words of wisdom. Oh, boy.

Bring it home strong now, man.

Is that right? I feel. I feel too young to have words of wisdom. So much to learn. I don't know. Something I think that was important for me probably early in my career, I guess to recognize and to try to focus in on was simply how to kind of position myself, prepare myself to be as useful as I could possibly be. That was for the longest time, certainly I saw my value to offer not so much as usefulness, but as like smarts, I guess, intellect or something, which I guess can be useful in certain times, but. But oftentimes just isn't. It can just be obnoxious, annoying, not really lead anywhere. So I guess that's it. Be useful.

Nice. I like it.

So let's see. So social media. Well, I can be. My email, I can be reached@jhowellean.org that's where I. That's my lei address. Certainly be reached there.

And Howells with two Ls, right?

Howells with two Ls. H O W E L L. Twitter, JoshuaHowell. And I think that's about it.

You on LinkedIn or.

No, I am. So I guess just under Joshua Howell. Yeah, I could be reached. Okay, good.

Very good. All right, well, hey, it was great talking with you again. I really enjoyed it and and I'm sure our paths will cross one day in a conference or something like that. So perhaps we can chat again down the road.

Absolutely. It's been great to talk with you and hope to see you as well. Thank you.

Thanks Josh.

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