GA 043 | Making Mistakes with Mike Grogan

You're listening to episode 43 with Mike Grogan. Welcome to the Gemba Academy Podcast, the show that's focused on helping individuals and companies achieve breakthrough results using the same continuous improvement principles leveraged by companies such as Toyota Del Monte and the U.S. department of Defense. And now, here's your host, Ron Pereira. Hey there. This is Ron Pereira, and I'd like to welcome you to another edition of the Gemba Academy Podcast. As always, thank you for carving some time out of your day to listen to what we're up to. Now then, today we welcome Mike Grogan back to the show. Now, regular listeners will remember meeting Mike back in July of 2014 where we talked about the excellent work that Mike's done in Tanzania. Now, if you'd like to check that episode out, Simply go to GembaPodcast.com 15. That's 15 for 15. Now, today, Mike and I turn our attention to mistakes. Well, specifically, Mike shares three of the biggest mistakes he feels he's made during his time there in Tanzania. Now, as you'll hear, Mike is pretty hard on himself, and I even challenged him a few times to give himself more credit than he does. But Mike's honesty and willingness to share this side of his story is what makes him one of my favorite lean thinkers of all time. Now, before we start the show, I wanted to share some of the audio From a short YouTube video Mike sent over the other night where we nailed down exactly what he wanted to focus on. Now, you do lose some of the context since you can't see where he is, but what you can hear is Mike's passion and excitement for living life. Let's have a listen.

I am super excited about the podcast. And after deep, deep reflection, I thought that the best use for the listener in this podcast is the theme of mistakes, theme of failure, theme of setbacks. So I would like to share in this podcast three of my biggest failures on my path to influence growth, whether that be when I worked in corporate America or the last two years here in Tanzania. So just ask me my three biggest failures, and if you're to say what my desired result was, I want the listeners to pick up one thing to add to their not to do list. So one thing that they're going to add to not to do list after this podcast that they will be actually be able to use on their own journeys. So I'm going to be vulnerable. I want to share the many mistakes that I made, both all through my career. I think maybe perhaps that will be the best and most effective use of our time.

Okay, well, show notes for this episode can be found over@gemmapodcast.com 43 and that's 4, 3 for 43 gammapodcast.com 43 okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. All right, Mike, well, listen, you are the the first repeat guest of the Gemba Academy podcast. So thank you, I guess, first of all, for coming back on a second time.

It is an honor. I'm very humbled to get this title.

Yeah, well, very good. So we last talked to you, I guess it was back in July of 2014. It was episode 15. So if anybody wants to go back and listen to that, it's Gambapodcast.com forward/15 or 15 for 15. So we talked about your activities there in Tanzania and CCBRT and all kinds of really, really powerful stuff that you've been working on. So I guess my first question is, what's been going on in your world since since we last talked?

Well, currently, as we speak, I have less than three weeks remaining in my current assignment here in Tanzania. So with a heavy heart, I'd be saying after two years saying goodbye to Tanzania and moving on to another chapter of my life in Southeast Asia, I'm going to be living in the Philippines. So I'm going to take a I'm going to go back to my family for about five weeks in Ireland, actually. Would you believe that's the longest time I'll have spent in Ireland with my family in over 10 years? Wow. Okay. Left. So I'm actually, I'm from a farming background, so I'm going to be helping my dad on the family farm as the so I'm going to be a shepherd, lean coach shepherd, helping helping with the sheep. But then in late March, I do expect to move to the Philippines and continue looking to do work that's aligned with my mission.

Now, you're not going to drive your dad nuts by trying to like lean out all of his processes and everything, are you?

I hope not. It's something I didn't expect to do, but I'm so grateful that I get the opportunity because with a lot of the listeners on this call, I'm a knowledge worker. And to go back to my childhood of working with labor, I think it's going to make me more humble and more grateful and special opportunity to have deeper relationships with my father and my brother and my sisters and my mother. So I'm extremely grateful. Even though if I I would will admit that farming is not my passion, perhaps there will be some continuous improvement opportunities along the way, but I definitely won't push it.

Yeah, no, very good. That's very cool. Very cool. All right, so, well, today I, I played for the intro, we're gonna kind of cut in some of your little YouTube video that you, that you made, so people will have heard some of that. But why don't you kind of give everybody a kind of a view of what they're. What we're going to talk about today, mistakes and so forth. Give us an overview of what you want to cover today, Mike.

Sure. I was deeply, deeply reflecting on what will be of the most value to the listener, trying to put myself in a listener's perspective and my assumption I'm making that the listener is passionate or curious at the least about continuous improvements and growth, not just in their business, but perhaps in a lot of areas in their life, from family to spiritual to mental, etc.

Yeah.

So with that in mind, I wanted to lead with my own vulnerability and share some of the mistakes, many, many mistakes that I've made on my own lean journey, which I'll primarily, I'll use examples from my two years here in Africa working in this healthcare organization. But occasionally I might expand that to my time in corporate America and when I first began my lean journey in the uk. So I think the more vulnerable I am, the more hopefully more authentic I am, the more people will get something out of this that they can apply on to their own journeys.

What do you want people to take from this?

Yes. So I have a clear desired results. And the beauty of this desired result is you, the listener at the end of this call can say if this guy was successful or this guy just totally wasted my time. So my desired result is one thing I want the listeners to take from this call, one thing to add to their not to do list. So I'm passionate about everyone should have a not to do list. And I want the listeners from this call, from this conversation, this dialogue that me and you, Ron, are going to undertake to take at least one thing they can take from this call they can apply immediately to their context, whether it be if they're mentoring someone in their organization or they're trying to influence growth in any aspect, not just in the classic organizational lean transformation, but in any aspect of their life. Add just one thing to their not to do list.

Nice. I love it. All right, well, let's get into it. So what's your first mistake?

I got so many. Where'd I start? So I'm going to focus on the Top three. And perhaps you might guide me into adding some more. But I have three on my mind that I want to share straight away. So number one is talking too much. And I have certainly done that far too often and it's a mistake I continually do. In the previous podcast that we did, I shared with the listeners that my best advice I ever got was, Michael, the more you talk, the less they learn. And that advice has stuck with me so much times and so many times I reflected on it almost too late, realizing, damn, I talk too much. There I missed the opportunity to influence. I missed the opportunity to deeply understand. I missed the opportunity to make deposits of trust. I instead started blabbing about, you know, what I think, or like an example from a factory in Pennsylvania or example from Toyota that that person totally can relate to. But there I go, blabbing, talking about my perspective or my experience. And I just think that's, that's a mistake that so many of us make.

Why do you think, let's talk about you. Why do you think you. You do that?

I like the sound of my own voice. That's nothing to do with my charming Irish accent. It is an ego. I think I would really. I'm looking at myself here more than anyone else. Ego to perhaps impress people or to kind of boast about my knowledge. Not that I've done this consciously, but perhaps subconsciously I've asked, why did I talk there? For example, I'm very comfortable in a non boastful way. I'm very comfortable in giving talks to large groups of people. And I've done talks with like 500 people, done workshops with 20 people. Big group. Actually, I'm far more comfortable in a big classroom, big theater than I am in one on one situations. I struggle a lot more in one on one than I am in group. But maybe my ego goes to play and I jump on the stage and I dance around and once again, like entertaining people or like getting people's attention or maybe subconsciously trying to boast about my own knowledge.

Yeah.

And I realized I've met so much errors and I'll give you a very practical mistake that I used to make that I try and avoid now. So let's say when I would try and teach people on problem solving skills, I would ask and answer my own questions. And I now ask a question like, why should you improve your problem solving skills? And immediately I would answer, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I'd move on to whatever the tools are, etc. I now realize that's the single single most important question in my entire training. So if I were to teach problem solving skills, one of the first questions I ask, and I would spend, sometimes I've spent an hour pushing the participants to answer this question in its entirety. Why should you improve your problem solving skills? And it's amazing. I have seen a group of 12 people come up with 50 plus reasons because everyone's got different motives and human motives drive everything, and it's up for them to discover their own why. And I think that's one of the lessons that I've learned to ask the Socratic approach, not to answer your own questions. For example, if I'm teaching time management, one of the most, the most. I always say the most important question is why should you change how you currently spend your time? We spend almost an hour on that question and answering it from all dimensions. The physical dimension, the emotional social dimension, the mental dimension, and the spiritual dimension. So mind, body, soul, heart. So really push people and then write on big paper on the wall and see they see these 50 plus reasons and right there is the motive for the case for change. And I think that's so powerful.

So, you know, getting back to the problem of talking too much, I mean, is the obvious countermeasure stop talking so much or is it. Is it deeper than that?

Well, I think the answer to that is empathetic listening. So it's amazing that we as. It's one of the most fundamental skills that very few people get training on is listening. You know, we get trained how to read and write, but that form of communication in terms of listening is we're so poor at it, the masses. And I put my hand up as being one of those, the biggest culprit. So I guess it's to truly understand. So, for example, I guess if you want to talk about techniques, one of the techniques my own teachers taught me is they constantly said this. So if I'm hearing you correctly, you're telling me this. If I understood you correctly, you're saying two points there. Did I get that?

Yeah.

So I'm sharing one technique, but it's more than that. It's really trying to get in to feeling what they feel, hearing what they hear, seeing what they see. And I think it's one of the highest forms of respect for people, respect for humanity, which I know you guys are so passionate about, and feeling that getting as close as possible to the pain they feel about a particular problem, that's the most beautiful way. Empathy, as some of your previous guests talked about. So Truly caring about person that you're trying to influence.

Yeah, Love it. All right, so that's your first mistake. What's your second?

Assumptions.

Okay.

And I can use some curse words here, but I might offend some listeners, but hopefully you know what I'm saying here. Assumptions, yes. I've met so much incorrect assumptions, assuming people got it. And I'll use some practical examples. So we'll talk about the vision. I really have underestimated the power of vision for years, and I've always had very mixed negative feelings about a vision because for me it wasn't tangible or practical. But as I've learned that on my lean journey, especially reading books like Toyota Kata and the Fifth Discipline by Peter Senge, I understand more and more the importance of vision. You know, to quote a biblical quote, you know, without a vision that people perish, I see that even for human potential, if someone doesn't have a vision that things can be better for themselves, they kind of submit to the status quo and almost check out on life and check out on their own potential. So it really is one of the most beautiful things is to see people who have that vision of themselves see that vision of what it could be, whether we put a man on the moon or that healthcare excellence in healthcare in developing worlds can work and is possible. So to share a story, I really want to share practical stories with my lessons. Some of the leaders that I've been trying to influence, sometimes I'll go and I train them on the tools, the techniques, and I talk about management systems. And here's me maybe showing videos from Gemba Academy or drawing my little stick men on a piece of paper, verbally trying to share with them concepts of vision in Toyota or vision in organizations like Pedicure is. But they really didn't internalize what that vision meant to them. One of the most transformational experiences that I've seen in CCBR team is from our finance, our cfo, our finance director, Chief Financial Officer Ellie. So Elie, for a long time he kind of worked with me, but he never pulled for my time per se. But something happened to Elie that totally transformed his thinking. And now he constantly pulls for my time. He is so passionate about this and it's almost like the baptism of fire in the water and out of the water. He is totally transformed. And that particular thing that transformed him was. And I'm going to give a call out, and rightfully so, to our folks in the TEDACARE Centre for Healthcare Value in one of the. And tedacare has Been fantastic. John Toussaint and his team and giving us some support on our lean journey. So we had a team last year go to tedacare and Ellie, who's in finance, got to see what lean looks like in a finance department. So, okay, I know it was a hospital, but he visited finance, part of that organization, and got to spend one on one time with his peer, with his finance counterpart. And for the first time he saw what real lean looks like in his context. Real lean, not fake lean, which we see all the time, or not kind of bits of lean which we might see in the textbook. But he absorbed all his senses, not just his eyes, his ears, but he's absorbed all his senses of what real lean looks like. And he got to taste and experience that. When he came back to the organization, he had that vision of what? Not the pedicure's vision, but he was able to create the vision of what real lean could look like in his context, in his finance department. So he started building what that picture looked like even though his own management team were kind of questioning his sanity. His own frontline workers saying, why are you trying to punish Azeli with these visual boards? What are you doing? And a lot of people around him don't get the vision. But I'm so impressed with him in terms he's trying to build this management system. He's trying to create that frontline, engage workers. He truly has a deep understanding of respect for people and it is so beautiful to see that happen. And when I reflect on folks I haven't been successful with influencing, I link a lot back to that. They haven't seen that vision. They haven't seen what good looks like. They haven't seen what real lean could look like in their department. So that is one of my mistakes and one of the countermeasures accidentally that I've come across.

So is it the best way then your opinion to kind of counter this is to go out and visit other organizations that are successful or is that kind of your best approach?

Well, first, so yes and no for some people. So maybe if people have the luxury of affording that to visit another facility. Well, we need to be careful because there's a lot of organizations doing fake lean. No disrespect, no disrespect. So you need to, essentially you're looking, for example, of reeling in a context that you can relate to.

Yeah.

However, it may not be sustainable to send all the key leaders in your organization to these places because they are. You need to do your search and make sure you're going to the right place. Yeah, I suggest. So if, if you would ask me, and hopefully, Ron, you will come to Tanzania one day. If you were to come to CCBRT and ask me, okay, Michael, show me a department that's doing real lean. I could not show you that example. And because I can't show you that example, that is my failure as the lean coach. And, and we'll talk about later how come I realized that was a big error on my behalf. So we've got a new guy coming in and he's our health and safety manager and he's really. He doesn't. Not familiar with the term lean, but he's passionate about continuous improvement. He's asking me all these questions, and as he was asking me this question, I had a big aha moment. I was like, wow, I can't even take this guy by the hand and show him a department that's practicing real lean from the perspective of frontline problem solving, respect for people and leadership behaviors and all that good stuff that we try and strive towards. I can't show that guy real.

Let me jump in because I'm going to challenge you now. So unless we're going to get real here. So you, you kept mentioning, you keep saying the phrase real lean, real lean. What is real lean? Lean is just a word, right? It's a word that was made up in the 80s by some researchers traveling about looking at how Toyota and other automotive guys were doing good work. So it's just, it's a word. Lean. Right. Maybe a bad word even. Right? I mean, so, so what. What is real lean, in your opinion? And why are you being so hard on yourself in. In. In ccbrt?

Well, I can give my answer, but I believe there's. I'll call out my good friend Mark Rabin and Bob, Emily, Amelia, as some great folks who have written extensively on this subject, including yourself, I'm sure. So my answer is realign is respect for people in action. And 100% of the workers actively engaged in problem solving. So I know I'm kind of talking high level, but if you go to that, if you just sit in that department and observe, you will see those behaviors, those respectful behaviors from the leader. You'll not see a perfect department. You will see a department constantly changing, constantly not happy with the status quo. No person from that department will be boasting how good they are. They'll be constantly seeing problems. They'd be constantly solving problems at the right levels. They'd be constantly challenging, asking Themselves, Questions like, what's most important? They'd be constantly showing respect for each other. To be a no blame culture. It's just a beautiful sight to see those elements and to see people with true joy and work that they really, if you ask the people, you know, what's it like to work here where they share this, that they respect us, that they feel appreciate us, they feel their work is significant, they feel they're growing, they feel they're contributing to something bigger than themselves.

Yeah.

It really is from not just seeing metrics or performance, but it's that human emotion, that human energy that comes from the frontline worker that's created by the system and how the leader is grooming those folks.

Well, I guess all I'll say on that is, you know, I have not visited you there, but Kevin, Kevin Meyer, my business partner, and, you know, Kevin well did visit you, and he speaks very highly. And I'll just say that it's real easy for, you know, a professor to sit back and write books on what, you know, real lean is and so forth versus getting boots on the ground and going to Tanzania. Okay. And, you know, attempting to, you know, improve the lives of people who, you know, many of us in the west have no clue what's going on right over there. And so the work that you've done, I just want to. I want to. I want to beat you up for beating yourself up so much a little bit, if that makes sense, because I think that you have. I think you have done tremendous work and you have shown tremendous respect for people over there with, you know, the efforts and the sacrifices that you've personally made. So I think it's important to recognize that. So that's. That's my quick soapbox moment for you.

Thanks, Ron. Thanks, Ron.

All right, so. So what. What's your third mistake? I have a feeling we're going to be able to go on after three if you want, but let's let. Let's see what number three has in store for us.

So in the previous episode, I said my favorite quotation, people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. Yeah. And my deep regret here is not getting to know and connect with people I've been working with. Not forming deeper relationships, not asking more about the personal life, not asking more about their motivation, not asking more about their challenges, their passions, their fears, their dreams, their hopes, their concerns, not forming those deep, deep connections. I mean, okay, I am my biggest. I am my own biggest critic, and I have formed some Beautiful relationships. But I look back with the folks that I've. I've made some great progress with and the folks that I feel like I could have met, so much more progress. And I would link that back to not connecting with them more, not forming those deeper connections, because I have my vision board that I look at every day. And that's something, maybe a separate conversation, but one of my quotes that I look at every day is being trusted is a greater compliment than being loved. Being trusted is a greater compliments than being loved. And if I'm really honest with myself, I look back a lot of the times throughout my career, I cared more to impress people that they would like me, I guess, care more about my reputation than my own character, than actually trying to connect with them on a really deep, deep level. Sorry, excuse me. I'm getting a bit emotional because I'm thinking about my own missed opportunities. So I think there's something really beautiful, that relationship between. I know there's different labels you can put on us, but we're both learning from each other. In my last episode, I called out my favorite person in Tanzania, in Africa and possibly the world, Dr. Brenda DeMelo. And I started. I was away the weekend on my own writing and I was trying to. Me and Brenda were trying to co write a piece and essentially we were asking questions. Okay, what's most useful about. That's for the reader, for the, for the reader of this article. And I kind of challenged Brenda and said, instant Brenda, I think if we were to connect with people, we need to be really authentic and we need to be really vulnerable. And I believe that what made our relationship successful is that we both deeply, deeply cared about each other. I admire this woman beyond words. She is the most passionate woman I've ever met. She deeply, deeply cares about the tragic loss of human life in healthcare, especially in women's health care here in Tanzania. And to go to the Gemba with her and observe. And with my own eyes. I remember that day so clearly. My own eyes seeing a stillbirth being delivered to, seeing babies left on the side to die, to see the suffering in that public hospital that we visited together and to see the reaction in our heart, just to feel that reaction that she had and that she sees this for the last 20 plus years of her life. And that was a huge moment for me to deeply, deeply, as close as I possibly can, to feel her pain and connect with her on a spiritual level. We're friends for life, me and this woman. And I would do anything to help Brenda and she's made so much sacrifices for me when I needed it more soon in my own struggles here, battling with being on my own, etc. So I think that that's the single. Well, there's many factors, but if I were to call out one factor that met that relationship between me and Brenda the learner, but I don't even like that title because I think I learned more off her. But that relationship, so special was that deep caring for each other, that deep respect and love for each other. And I wish I replicated that success with more folks because there's a lot of folks that I really do care about, but I missed out on opportunities to really get to know them and really show them that I actually do care.

Do you think it's too late?

No, absolutely not. There's never, never too late to let people know how much you care for them. And it's interesting this. I was recently, I journal a lot. I think it's one of the habits I'm very grateful for and like, what is my. What will be some of my life regrets? And actually one of my life regrets would be not to get to know my parents before it's too late. And I started like journaling on a list of questions I would love to answer to ask my own parents to get to know as actually I started reflecting on work, I started reflecting on my family, what was most important to me. And in a lot of ways, being nine years away from home, coming up 10 years, a lot of my family don't even know me. And people that I love the most, we don't have that. Of course they love me because I'm their son and I'm their brother, but we don't know each other. And I think that's, that's a, almost a tragedy. And I want to, I can take action today and moving forward to improve, make deposits in that relationship. So, like one of my daily habits, a question I ask myself is how can I make someone's day? That's the question I ask myself every morning. How on this day can I make someone's day? And how can I do something tiny, even if it's a compliment, to give someone feedback, to connect someone, just what can I do today to make someone's day? And having that question open in my subconscious, I feel that's allowed me to give more because there's a couple of people I be in the next three weeks and I'm not just talking about the folks in Tanzania, but there's so much, so many people that Allowed me, have poured into me and allowed me the opportunity to do what I do today. And there's a lot of those folks that don't even know how much I appreciate and how much I love them. So it's never too late, whether it be the phone call or a letter or an email or a video message, just to some way to a small token or as Stephen Covey talks in his book the Seven Habits, which is one of my favorite books, about making small deposits of trust, small deposits of love, small deposits of caring into their account consistently over time does make a bigger difference in the end.

Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. It's beautiful. Well, that's three, Mike. I mean, what do you think? Does that kind of. Kind of summarize the key points that you wanted to make today, or are there any. Anything else weighing on your heart that you want to share?

No, I think that's it for. Well, for the brief podcast. I know I don't want to, like, explode last. My Last podcast is 52 minutes. I'll be easy on the listener this time. So I just stopped there and I'll. That's the things I had in my mind to share. I could go deeper on each one. You're welcome, folks, to reach out to me, but I'll actually just hand it over to you, Ron. Whatever, however you want to. Whatever questions you want to probe me with.

Yeah, well, we touched on this in the episode 15 back in July. We talked about your background and whatnot. But I'm curious if you were to kind of look back on, you know, you focused today talking about your time there in Tanzania.

Right.

But what about, like, Mike, Mike Grogan's overall continuous improvement journey? Do you see those same mistakes being made back then, or were there other ones? In other words, if you could go back in time, we had a time machine.

Right.

And you could go back and talk to that young Michael who was first introduced to continuous improvement, and give. Give him some advice, right, like, don't do this or do this. What would you. What would you tell that young, young Michael Grogan, who knows nothing of lean or continuous improvement yet let me be.

Controversial here and say I would decline the opportunity to go back in time to be controversial, because I know I've heard other people answer those questions and give really good wisdom to themselves. But I'm more. And hopefully I'm not disrespecting your question here, but, you know, what's done in the past is done. I'm focusing towards striving towards my own personal Vision and living mission every day. So in that sense, I needed to, I needed those failures. Yeah. To kind of go back in time and tell myself, avoid those failures. I would not be the person that I am today.

No, fair enough, fair enough. I mean, that's very. I can't argue with that.

I needed to be in the arena. I needed to get my ass kicked. I needed to blood to be. I needed to suffer. And you know, I'm quoting the apostle Paul here, but when I am weak, I am strong. I needed to go through the pain of my first year here in Tanzania, the pain of, you know, I shared with you privately, but being on my own and realizing what am I doing here? I'm not making a difference, I should be elsewhere. I needed to go through that suffering because it allowed me to discover who I am. And the greatest compliments I can pay to my Tanzanian experience is that allowed me to explore who I really am and what I'm really here to do and allowed me to connect greater with my creator. And I am so thankful for those war wounds, for those failures, for those moments of pain or those moments of anguish. And so no, I would decline the time machine offer.

No, fair enough, fair enough. So tell us a little bit about what you have coming up in your life, as far as you can tell, within, in the Philippines. What are you going to be doing over there?

I love when people ask me this question because my answer sometimes takes them aback. Well, I don't know. I don't know what I'm going to be doing in the Philippines. I don't know who I'm going to be working with. I don't know what type of industries. I have more clarity on what I don't want to do. And I don't want to do work that's not aligned with my mission. So I've got many journals in this. One of my missions is to advance society, to do significant work that to influence. Well, if I were to share one element of my vision, I want to influence 100 million people to do work that significantly advances society. So it has to move us as a society forward. And I absolutely have a huge passion for the developing world. And that was one of the reasons I chose the Philippines because it still is a developing country and no disrespect to Ireland where I came from and the US where I had so many great years. I just feel alive when and I feel I can really make a significant difference in the quality of human life by staying working in developing worlds context with all its challenges, but I still am grateful for that opportunity. So I don't know what work, who I'll be working with, I hope to see in healthcare, but I don't know. But I definitely will not be returning to a corporate world. I'm going to experiment, being on my own, whatever that means as a consultant. But I really want to pour into people, I want to connect with more. Dr. Brenda's another part of my vision is I want to, I want to mentor 12 people in my life that achieve greater things than I. So I want to pour into those 12 people. I don't know who those 12 people are. I've got an idea of some of them. But to discover those people in the Philippines and pour into them pour all the knowledge that was given to me by my senseis and teachers in the past and to help guide them whatever area of growth and impact they want to make in the world. So I've got a passion for developing people, passion for contribution. So whatever work I'm going to be doing has to be, has to be in that arena has to be significant. Otherwise I'll, I'll decline and hang around my sheep farm in Ireland until I find it.

There you go. There you go. Could be worse places I could, I can guarantee than Ireland. All right my friend, so let's go ahead and wrap up today's episode with you telling people how they, I know you did this in the, in episode 15 but tell people how they can connect with you again. Your website, social media, whatever your favorite outlets are.

Sure. LinkedIn obviously is a great way to connect with me for the folks that are using that tool. And then my website, Mike Grogan Consulting mikerogenconsulting.com It's the one word and that's probably two great ways to connect with me and my email and all that good stuff. So I really believe in the concept of sharing and giving back to the lean community, giving back to society in general. So I sincerely tell the listeners if there's any way that you think I can help, please reach out.

Yeah.

And it's an honor to help in any small token that I can help.

Fantastic. Well, you know, who knows, maybe in six months you can be the first three time guest and we can catch up with your latest comings and goings there in the Philippines. I can't wait to hear hear what's in store for you.

Well, that would be, that would be a privilege. It really is an honor to be on this call. So I'm grateful and very humble.

All right, well you take care and Godspeed, my friend.

God bless you, Ron. Thank you listeners.

Thanks for listening to the Gemba Academy podcast. Now it's time to take a free, no strings attached, fully functional test drive of Gemba Academy's School of Lean and Six Sigma. Over at Gembaacademy.com gain immediate access to more than 500 Lean and Six Sigma training videos free of charge@gembacademy.com.