GA 064 | Leading in a Lean Environment with Kent Bradley

You're listening to episode 64 with Kent Bradley. Welcome to the Gemba Academy Podcast, the show that's focused on helping individuals and companies achieve breakthrough results using the same continuous improvement principles leveraged by companies such.

As Toyota Del Monte and the U.S. department of Defense.

And now, here's your host, Ron Pereira. Hey there. This is Ron Pereira with Gemba Academy, and I'd like to welcome you to another edition of the Gemba Academy podcast. As always, thank you so much for taking time out of your day in your week to listen to the show and for watching our Lean and Six Sigma training videos over at Gembacademy.com we definitely appreciate each and every one of you. Now then, today, I'm excited to welcome Kent Bradley to the show. Now, I've known Kent for many years. Kent used to work for Gemba Research as a consultant and then Kaizen Institute. And he's also held several executive level leadership positions at different companies. And he comes with more than 20 years of lean experience. So coming with a lot of knowledge and just a really great guy to talk to. And today Kent and I talk about coaching and the role coaching plays in a kind of a lean leadership environment. And so Kent kind of talks about how to transition from a command and control leader to more of a coach and more of inspiring people to learn how to problem solve on their own. So again, lots of good wisdom and many years of experience to back up what Kent is talking about. So show notes for this episode can be found over@gembapodcast.com 64 and that's 6, 4 for 64. So again, gembapodcast.com 64. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. All right, Kent, well, thank you so much for coming onto the show. Where are you calling in from today?

Calling in from Homes, Spokane, Washington.

Beautiful. Beautiful. All right, well, Kent, we've known each other for a long time, but maybe our listeners don't know you. Haven't met you. So why don't we just start with you telling us a little bit about your background, Kent, and then what you're up to these days.

Most of my career has been in operations and general management, typically leadership positions in manufacturing and distribution. Although I started out as a truck driver and a forklift operator.

Oh, I didn't know that.

Yep. Ended up through the years working kind of progressively more challenging positions and ultimately in senior leadership or VP roles as head of operations or manufacturing, and then got into consulting. Had the opportunity to apply some of the things I'd learned on A global basis, working for a global consulting company and did that for about seven years and really enjoyed it, particularly the problem solving part of it. Then finally, most recently, I took an inside consulting position for Northwest U.S. regional Power Company, Utility Company, Integrated electric, natural gas, wind and solar generation and distribution company, and did internal transformation consulting. And then as of about a month ago, just kind of semi retired to do a little volunteer work and to do some. Some selective consulting engagements.

So what's a semi retired person do?

That's a great question. I'm kind of feeling my way through that. It is. I kind of have four buckets. One is to give back a little bit to the community and to my profession. So I'm doing some volunteer work with two nonprofits here in the Spokane area and also doing some independent consulting, as I mentioned, had some opportunities to work with some private clients. And then I have a strange passion. I train and compete with working livestock dogs throughout the western United States. If you ever saw the movie Babe, that's a little bit about what I do. So I've been doing that for 20, 25 years and had the opportunity to spend a little more time doing that, indulging my other passion, outside scene.

Very cool. Very cool. Well, it sounds like you're having a lot of fun.

Yes.

All right, well, Kent, let's go ahead. You know the drill. We like to start all of our shows with our guests sharing a quotation or two that inspires them. So do you have one?

Actually, I have two. And that's such a great question, Ron. The first one that really comes to mind, and they're both related, is. I don't know who said this. I attribute John Miller as having presented it to me at one point. But it is easier to act yourself into a new way of thinking than to think or talk yourself into a new way of acting. And it's a real key, particularly in the last several years, not just with the company I was working with, but doing global consulting, seeing this theme and the second one that's related to it, that you hear it attributed to different people. I heard it generally attributed to Ted Turner, who started tnt. But do something, either lead, follow, or get out of the way. Those two really fit and resonate with me because I think we're seeing in lean, kind of a middle tier, a little bit of a resistance or hesitation in the middle tier of managers within companies moving down the lean journey to really get off the sidelines. And that's a little bit of the theme that I wanted to talk about today.

I Love it. Yeah. Quick story. That second quote reminded me. I remember I was probably 8 years old and I was in the back seat of my grandma and grandpa's car and we were taking a nice Sunday drive and my grandma, God rest her soul, was pretty direct with my grandpa. My poor grandpa wasn't the best driver and still isn't actually still alive, but he pulled out in the middle of the intersection and somehow or another he just kind of froze and panicked. And so we're sitting in the middle of the intersection and these cars are just kind of like looking at us. And my grandma, I'll never forget it rest of my life, she says, well, do something. Yeah, I'll never forget that.

That's exactly, that's a perfect example, Ron. That's exactly the thing that I'm talking about.

Yeah, do something, go forward, backwards, anything.

Perfect.

All right, well, Kent, today we're going to focus on the topic of leadership coaching for engaging your teams. And so let's just kind of begin at the beginning and tell us about what this means to you and maybe share some of the challenges that you've seen out in the workplace today as it relates to leadership coaching.

It's really a fascinating topic because this is something that is kind of a head scratcher. You know, a lot of the body of transformation work is focused on, you know, the high end, the senior leaders, but also then the down at the gimba, the frontline people. And to me, the missing link is that middle tier of mid level managers. And there's a ripple effect to senior leadership. And the theme really is about that critical importance for engaging employees and that lean mindset by helping that mid tier of leaders and senior leaders make the transition from boss to coach and teacher. And that's a monumental shift. What I've encountered in my own experience is a lot of real hesitation and difficulty with that band of leadership within an organization. I don't care if it's manufacturing or non profits or transactional industries, that middle tier managers making that shift from a command and control, and it's sometimes command and control, but to, to get out of that skin and into the new skin of really being a coach and a teacher as a new definition of being a successful leader. And it's critical to me because it's a tipping point in that transformation. And without that, it really dampens or slows or sometimes completely derails an organization's ability to, ability to really make that next big step to empowered workforce happen.

Okay, so what about, so let's talk about that leader and say they want to make this transition from command and control to more of a coaching. What are some of the keys for this person both in maybe leadership style and then their team's performance?

That's some great questions. And there's kind of a precursor to the nuts and bolts and I'll talk about some nuts and bolts issues in a minute. But the real prerequisite or the precursor before they get into that nuts and bolts is to first really understand that increasing engagement and developing and unleashing the problem solving skills for a really vibrant lean organization requires empowerment and trust. And that's, that's critical. And a lot of people be careful what you wish for and be ready for it when it comes. Because if you're not ready to fully support that, if you say you want that and you want to be a lean organization, you have to be able to rely on and trust your workforce. If you can't commit to supporting that, it's better not even to start. Because once you start and you start to engage that workforce and get them fired up and get them excited, if you jerk the rug out from under them, say oh no, no, no, no, I'm really the one who has to make all the decisions or I have to do everything. It's all about me, me, me, not about empowering, training, developing that thinking organization. Then don't even start. It's going to be a huge dissatisfier.

So quick question on that end of it. So you're saying the leader needs to trust the associates or their team members. What about the other way around? How do we get the team members trusting that leader who all they know has been command and control.

That's a wonderful question. And that's part of the hesitation, part of what we see about the hesitation in that group. There has to be that ability to count on and trust each other. It's a little bit of a standoff at the initial phases and it will only come with practice. And that's kind of the second prerequisite. Once you understand that it's better, better to not start that engagement if you're not really going to commit to it. Once you do make that commitment to do it, then it's about acknowledging that we're all learning this together. And that's one of the nuts and bolts issue I'll talk about in a minute. Really the first step as a leader, but it's about acknowledging that we're all learning this together because it is a new skill and, and then just do it. And that's a little bit about going back to the initial quotes about do something, lead follower, get out of the way. There's what I see in the market in these mid tier managers and senior level managers somewhat to the same extent, a real lack of boldness to go out there and tristorm to take these first steps together and to acknowledge it. So to your question, what are some of those nuts and bolts that they can do? And I see it as three keys to success, real nuts and bolts kind of success. To just get started with this and the first one as a leader, whether you're mid tier, frontline supervisors, anything is get your ego out of the way. And that's really hard because a lot of us got into those positions and my own trajectory through was progressively more responsible positions and I kind of made my bones early in my career as being a great firefighter. Right or wrong, that was what it was and it was very satisfying to be the go to guy. But that's not what we're talking about. That doesn't work in a lean organization. And you're going to be your own organization's worst enemy and worst bottleneck. I think we all know that. The Gemba Academy listeners know that. They're way beyond that. They understand getting to that organization that we all aspire to, that lean, dynamic organization takes a shift. And one of the first steps in that shift is understanding that as a leader, get your ego out of the way, shut up, listen and learn from your people. And that's a very humbling thing for a lot of managers to do, is to make that key step from it's all about me to engaging, empowering and trusting your people.

Got it. Okay.

So the next step, once you're willing to do that and sitting down with your people, not being afraid to say, look, this is new, we're going to go this direction and I'm going to need to trust you, you're going to need to trust me. We're going to learn together. It's about plan, do, check, act. We're going to make good plan, we're going to adjust. So the second part is questioning with purpose and without judgment as a leader. This is a specific way that you work and approach with your people. A lot of times people come to us with problems and traditionally we would say, oh, we shoot from the hip or we think it through and we come up with the answer, but that's not really right. Where we want to focus now as a leader is developing thinking and problem solving frameworks within our people and being that they're growing and learning how to use that skill. So in order for them to develop that skill, that manager has to develop their own skill. And one of those key things, the second nuts and bolts point that I want to talk about is questioning with purpose and without judgment. So here's a framework and there's a lot of good work being done on this Toyota Kata. I know many of the listeners are familiar with that. A lot of different work is being done in this area and I'm a big fan of this. I've seen the success of. But it's been a skill that has needed practice and needed to be really honed. But here's the framework. The first question, of course, is, what's supposed to happen? Someone comes to me, Ron, come, you come to me. I'm your manager. You come to me and you say, kent, I've got this situation going on. Well, Ron, help me understand what's supposed to happen. What we would say in Lean, what's the target condition? Okay, well, you're explaining, here's what's going on, here's what's happening. Well, what's actually happening now? What's the difference between that target and the current state? What's really happening now? So we're seeing, as a manager, I'm beginning to see that there's in graph. What's the understanding? It helps me understand the situation tactically, but also more strategically, it helps me understand, does Ron know what good looks like in his organization? Does he have a firm grasp as a leader of what should be happening in his organization? Where is he as a manager or she coming? Where are they as a manager? Then what's actually happening? So they describe the current state. The next question, the third question in that chain is what obstacles or issues do you see in the way? What's the gap? What's your root cause analysis? These are common themes for Lean, but this again is the mandate manager developing and working with that individual and with that team through this framework. So what's the target? What's supposed to be happening? What's actually happening? What obstacles are in the way? What do you know about those obstacles? That's really part and parcel of that third question. And then what are you doing about it? Not just what's your plan, but what's the do? So it's not talking about solutions you want to get to, what's that do? Helping your people get off the sidelines and begin to feel empowered. And when you say, what are you doing about it? Not just what's your plan, but what's your due as that person's manager or senior leader? You're saying the ball is in your court. I'm not going to take that from you. But I want to know what's your plan? And so you're entrusting them. You're telling them you have a green light, but you also want to safeguard their thinking. You want to understand the level of detail, the level of investigation, those kinds of things that have been taking place so that you can coach that part of that fourth question. The next part of that fourth question is, and how can I help you? Yes. And so that's indicating the support, but it's not taking the burden. And that's a critical step in getting your people off the sideline and beginning to build. Going back to your great question about how do we get started with that? How do we build that trust? You're communicating to them. This is yours. Walk me through your thinking, and then how can I help you be successful?

You know, what's interesting about this fourth point? What are you doing about it and what's your plan and how can I help? What I found personally leading people even here at Gemba Academy, you know, Elaine's been with us forever. I know. You know, Elaine Kent, and she knows the drill. She knows that when she asks a question, and more than likely she's not going to get an answer. And it's taken her many, many years to kind of realize that, you know, we don't. We're just not gonna answer most of the time because I don't know, you know, I mean, I could guess just like you, Elaine, but let's, let's, you know, think critically and go after it. But, you know, she's even joked sometimes, I just want you to tell me what to do, you know, and Elaine's been with us forever and she understands lean and just. But this is a common thing that I see with, with companies and organizations is that associates aren't used to autonomy. They're not used to freedom. And when you try to give it to them, they may say they want it, but sometimes it's like, ah, just tell me what to do, Kent. You know, I don't know. You know, and. And then that's when the firefighter comes out, right? And you're like, yeah, let's go do it. You know?

Exactly. You're so right. You're so right. And the tricky thing is there's, it's, it's. And really, this is kind of a great segue into the third of What I see as the three keys to success, first, get your ego out of the way. Second is question with purpose and without judgment. And the third is coach for developing the problem solving. Would I say coach for the third one? And you will always get those things. And although it's very satisfying when they come to you and just say, look, I can't, my brain is full. I can't think. It doesn't mean that. And you're doing the right things, you're obviously challenging right back and saying, no, no, you know, it's hard. It is hard. And there is a time and a place. Once on the journey, you've established that trust that they know ultimately it's their job, then you can begin to step back in. We all are familiar with boss speak or manager speak. A lot of times, rightfully or wrongfully, when the manager speaks up and says, oh, did you think about X, Y or Z? It could be a completely innocent, good question. Did you think about X, Y or Z? But frequently, particularly in the early part of developing this trust, our teams hear, oh, well, Ron said this, this and this. So that must be what they want us to do. And we have to be very, as leaders coaching this, developing team, this thinking framework for our teams. We have to be very sensitive to that. And so I really applaud what you're doing with your own people to keep challenging going back. But once you get through that, there's no reason down the road when that trust is there that you can't participate as a problem solver. You got to where you are because typically you're a. You understand what's going on in the organization. That's part of your role. And you have a different perspective that you bring to the team that is valued. But at the beginning, you're really coaching what I say call coaching for the third one down the line. And what you want is.

What do you mean by that third one?

That's a great question. So let's take that example, Ron, you've come to me, we have this, and I'm asking you some questions. Did you think about this? What about that? What's happening? What's your target? What's the current state? And you say, well, you know, I didn't really think about what my target condition is. So the next time you come to me with a different situation, you will, ideally, if you're learning and I'm doing a good job as your coach teaching you this, you're going to come already having thought about that, you're already coming in that Next one, you're farther down that continuum of developing and honing this skill in using this framework. So you're through it. And then what I say is, typically by the third one, you're kind of looking down that the third one you're coming. And you pretty well have worked through it. Right. If you haven't, then we have a gap there in our own process development, and we have to focus on what's missing in our coaching or your learning. What am I not doing right as your teacher? And I then need to increase that skill. And so it's helping coach for down the road. And really the key is patience. You're coaching for continuous improvement in the thinking process, not one off solutions. Although it's important to understand if the solution is good. We're approaching and really developing the level of continuous thinking and process improvement about using this discipline framework. So that's the learning that matters. The one off solution is going to be the one off solution. And we want to be sure that we're addressing the thinking framework. The success of using the thinking framework first and then the success of the solution second. I know that's completely backwards from what our traditional thing is. Get the solution out there, move on, don't think about the process you used to do it. It might have been a lucky guess, but we'll take it. That's what we're trying to get past.

Yeah, got it. All right, well, very good. We're covering a lot of details here, so hopefully everybody goes. We're going to summarize these in the show notes of this episode. So. So everybody be sure to go check that out. Perhaps we'll even do a transcript because this is like some good stuff here. Kent, you're writing an ebook here and you didn't even know it. All right, so the next question I have for you is, I'm curious, you know, with all of your experience out there working with different companies, have you seen someone do this? Have you seen a success story where an organization's leaders have transitioned from command and control to more of a coach?

Yeah, and there's been a lot of good ones. There are obviously failures. No one's going to bat a thousand. But in my own experience, I think probably my favorite example, and there's a number to go through, but I had a leadership role as VP of operations for a marine electronics manufacturer, and we were on the journey. And in using this questioning, one of the things that I put into place is in new product development, the concept of having our design engineers attend our production team's daily huddles. And that was a fairly new shift. And what was great out of it is really teaching everybody that when we do a new product, it's not an exercise in design, it's an exercise in profitability. And so that's a much deeper thing and requires a team collaboration. And so coming out on the line, as the engineers would first start to come out on the line, we would walk through that same framework. How is it supposed to be designed and assembled? How's it we understand the design, but how's it supposed to go together? So what's the target condition? Then what's actually happening? So the production teams would walk through, well, this is how it's actually going together. And so what are the obstacles? I know this is how I designed it, this is how I thought you were going to build it. But in fact, you're having to do this. What's getting in your way of doing it the way I designed it. And so they're collaborating, they're beginning to have that conversation to see the work through each other's eyes. But problem solve with that framework and then what are you doing about it? How are you going to adjust your plan, your next design, those kinds of things, or how you're assembling so that we're in sync, that we're aligned around our shared goal of having this be the most profitable product that, that we can make out of it. So really working that way and it was really exciting because through this dynamic of walking through that problem solving together, it began to inform not just the next. So the next design got a little better. And we were really coaching for the third design out of it through the use of this framework. So it was a little different twist than what I had anticipated. And it really began to engage and the workforce in a much different way than I had anticipated, but a much more powerful way. Suddenly, marketing people started to come in. Suddenly other people as needed started to come in and really hone the way we designed and implemented new product development.

Love it. All right, what about senior leadership? What's their role in this transition?

That's a great question. Realistically, they need to walk the talk. It has to be leadership by example. And all of your listeners know that that's a key theme. Senior leadership can't abdicate. It has to be do as I do, not as I say, or you can make progress, but you won't be really successful. So they have to have that same humility going into it. They have to say, this is new, you know, yes. We got to where we are because we were good at it. This is a new skill. We have to allow people the practice to invest the time, the attention and sometimes even the money into acquiring the skill. And they start it. They should be using the same framework with their direct reports and with their teams trickling it on down and learning from each other. It has to be the same way. And it's about doing it. It's about practicing this skill to make it easier.

Hey, Kent, I got a question for you, and we didn't even talk about this ahead of time. How many years have you been kind of dabbling with continuous improvement, would you say?

Roughly, probably more formally, 25, 26 years.

Okay.

Yeah.

So this isn't necessarily related to this topic, but I'm curious with someone with your experience, I'm always curious if you could jump in a time machine and go back 26 years and sit with Kent Bradley, who was about to begin this, this journey, this continuous improvement journey number one, would you say anything to him at all or, you know, words of wisdom or advice? Or would you just, you know, give him a high five and say, go get him, killer? And if he would say anything, what would you say?

I think that's. What a wonderful question. I think what I would tell him is that key point, get your ego out of the way. Because at that point, I was a ego. I came up through very traditional industry at that point in time. And so at that point, 25, 26 years ago, I was beginning my own real lean journey. I'd always been good at problem solving and got moved around in very traditional industries as a manager for different locations to go in and troubleshoot. But it was all about me. So just tell myself to shut up, listen and learn and trust what I was seeing, and I would have gone a lot faster to get to the same place. I wouldn't have slapped my forehead 50 times a day going, what were you thinking? But it's a great, great question, Rob. But that's what I tell myself. Get the ego out of the way. Trust it, and trust your people.

Love it. All right, well, very good, Kent. So let's go ahead now and kind of transition into the reflection section. So, as you know, we lean thinkers spend a lot of time talking about kind of the two pillars of continuous improvement and respect for people. Continuous improvement, pretty easy to put your fingers on, what it is, how to do it. But this respect for people piece is a little bit, bit more challenging. So what does respect for people mean to you, Kent?

First, for Me, it's the core. I had the core belief that most people desire and intend to do things right. And I think that's a core belief that unfortunately you either have or you don't have. And I genuinely believe that. The second part of it is given that, therefore respect and common sense demand that we provide those people with the best we can in specific training and resources to prepare them. And I'm putting that in a business context. And then finally, and I think probably most importantly, respect demands that we provide them with the opportunity to fail or succeed and the coaching and support to learn from both that, to me, those three fit together.

Yeah, that last one's tough too, isn't it?

Boy, you're not kidding. You're not kidding.

Kent, what's the best advice you've ever received?

I love this and I put a lot of thought into this and I would say it's not advice per se, but leadership by example. One of the great leaders that I had the good fortune to work for is a gentleman named Steve Ashton who was the CEO of the company. And I was a wet behind the ears MBA mid level manager with my newly minted MBA from, like I say, coming out of a traditional industry. And this was about 25 years ago. And what Steve did that was really wonderful as the CEO is we had a Monday morning first thing meeting and it was our executive version of huddle. And what Steve did on the agenda every week, first thing on the agenda was his own. Starting off with, here's my biggest mistake last week. This is what was supposed to happen. This is Steve, the CEO of the company, sitting there leading off the meeting. Here's my biggest mistake last week. This was what's supposed to happen. And here's what actually happened. And here's what I think is behind it. Here's what I kind of did looking into that and here's what I'm going to do about it. And then here's what I learned from that. And then he would turn and look at us and go, I'd appreciate your input on my thinking there. So here's the CEO of the company. And I had just come into this out of a traditional industry where the last thing you do in front of the CEO is air your problems in the States. And so the last thing you're going to go is when it gets around to you, because that's the role of it. Each of us would go through that same exercise is to say, no, Steve, sorry, I didn't make any mistakes last round.

Yeah, it's all good.

So that was such an amazing revelation and really to have the opportunity to practice that open lean thinking framework about. Here's what I'm working on was really powerful for me.

Something that we do here at Gemba Academy at the end of the week, everybody does a short little weekly wrap up email and we just send it out to our team, all of our team members. And something that I actually did it last week for the first time was we do these every week. But, and so I went back, I was curious, I was like, what did I say I was gonna do last week? So I copied it, the bullet points and I pasted it in. I said what I said I was supposed to do last week. And then the next section was what I did this week. And I didn't necessarily go into the countermeasures or the reasons for why, but it was really powerful, you know, just what did I say I was gonna do? Yeah, that's, that's great. So, yeah.

All right.

Hey Kent, do you have a personal productivity habit that others might benefit from?

Well, coincidentally, it sounds somewhat like what you're doing is the beginning. For the last umpty nine years, I've dedicated 30 minutes at the start of the day and 30 minutes at the end of the day. It's actually booked in my outlook and I call it continuous improvement. And it's really broken out into thirds. It's, you know, what do I need to do, what did I. And what got in my way, what do I need to do today? Or if it's the afternoon session, what got in me my way that I'll do differently. So what am I going to do tomorrow? That's the middle third is, okay, I'm organizing what I did today and what I need to do for the next day. And then the last section is I like to do small project work or 2 second lean. Kind of my friend. I know you're good friends with Paul Akers and so am I. So I try to implement that myself every day. And currently I, I'm working on five s'. Ing. I got a new laptop and I'm taking the opportunity to 5s my files. So painful.

Yeah, yeah, good stuff. So over your last year or so of practicing lean, has there been anything that surprised you?

Yeah, it's really part of the theme of this and I think the lack of boldness in too many mid level and senior managers about addressing the issue of weak or non existent employee engagement. And we, and what really strikes me is this is at a time when employee survey after employee survey, regardless of the industry you're in, lists the employee's lack of ability to impact their daily work as an enormous dissatisfier. I mean that survey after survey comes up with that. And at the same time, the business needs for a flexible, dynamic, quick responding thinking. Organization and workforce have never been great. So that lack of boldness in that middle tier of managers to get out there and try to take on a new skill and to practice this and for the organization to invest in the time and the resources in creating the safety net where it's okay to do this, the coaching pdca for this tier of leaders to really manage that, to develop that skill and implement it, it's surprising to me that lack of boldness. We need to see that change.

Got it. Do you have a routine or ritual that you follow when things aren't going well and maybe you just need to kind of recharge and refocus?

Yeah, kind of going back to that strange thing I'm doing under the semi retired thing is for me being able to go out and train and compete with my stock dogs is. And we work with cattle, sheep, goats, anything that can be herded, we do that. It's very therapeutic. It's very humbling, very therapeutic, very direct, very honest. There's no bs. And like lean, it's a little humbling because the longer I do it and the deeper I get into it, the more I realize there's way more I need to learn. So it's a great thing to change and switch gears for me. Yeah.

Well, speaking of learning, the last question I have for you is you've been around for a long time and practicing stuff for a long time. But I'm curious, is there a knowledge or skill area that you feel that you still need to improve in order to become better at practicing lean?

Yeah, there's two things from a technical standpoint. I'm very fascinated with what's going on in the construction industry with pull scheduling. I think it's a great way to go. And in the first 10 years of my career I worked in the building materials industry and my father actually was an architect and I built my own house. I'm very sort of have a soft spot for construction. So technically I'm very interested in that. I think it's the right way to go. But then secondly, on a personal level, personal development, because I've had the good fortune to work with some very good lean companies, both as an executive myself, but also as a global consultant. I've seen what good looks like. And as I've been in this longer and longer, I find it harder and harder on a personal level to really suffer fools lightly. And I don't want to mean that derogatorily, but I mean it derogatorily. In lean speak, we call them concrete heads. It's more and more difficult in this day and age because and maybe going back to your great off the cuff question about what would I have told myself 25 years ago? Lean has been around a long time. It works. And when you see it and when you see the light go on with your team, there's just no desire to work anywhere that's not doing that or to work with managers who simply spend all day battling it when you know if they just put their got some boldness and put their toe in the water, they would leap in with both feet two weeks later. But getting that start off the side and it just is very difficult for me the longer I've been in it to come to terms terms with and maybe it's a wasting time or spending time with people who just aren't willing to take that step.

Yes, Personal failing. I call them cave people. Citizens against virtually everything.

There you go. There you go. Perfect.

All right. Well, Kent, I really enjoy talking to you and I've always enjoyed visiting with you. And next time I'm out in the Seattle area, you, I want to come out and buy you a beer and maybe we can go one of those fancy restaurants looking over the water and all that kind of stuff.

That sounds good to me.

But let's go ahead and wrap this show up, Kent, with you sharing some final words of wisdom. And then why don't you tell people how they can connect with you?

Well, you can get hold of me on LinkedIn. Kent Bradley on LinkedIn and Final Words of wisdom is try storming. Just don't be afraid to do it. Train your people, give them the training, train yourself and then get into it. Acknowledge that you're learning a new skill and be bold. Get off the sidelines, get in there and just start doing it because you're not going to break anything unless you jerk the rug out from under your people. But I guarantee if you train them, if you invest the time in yourselves and work it, you won't go backwards because once that light goes on, you'll say, why didn't I do this 25 years ago? Very good.

All right, Ken, well, thanks again and be well.

Thanks, Ron. Same to you.

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