GA 081 | Wiremold’s Lean Journey with Orry Fiume

You're listening to episode 81 with Orey Fiume.

Welcome to the Gemba Academy Podcast, the show that's focused on helping individuals and companies achieve breakthrough results using the same continuous improvement principles leveraged by companies such as Toyota Del Monte and the U.S. department of Defense. And now, here's your host, Ron Pereira.

Hey there. This is Ron Pereira with Gemba Academy, and I'd like to welcome you to another edition of the Gemba Academy podcast. As always, thank you so much for taking time out of your day in your week to listen to the show and for watching our Lean and Six Sigma training videos over@gemba academy.com. now, before we get started, I wanted to share a quick personal podcasting confession, and that confession is that I almost never listen to podcast at normal speed. Instead, since I listen to podcasts with my iPhone, I almost always play the episodes at 1.5 times normal speed. Now, this obviously allows me to get through more episodes, so I'm guessing other podcast apps, if you don't have an iPhone, have similar features, so feel free to give that a try. Now, the iPhone app also has a feature that allows you to move 15 seconds ahead quickly, which can be useful if you want to move forward in an episode. Maybe you don't want to listen to. If you're a regular listener, maybe you don't. You want to get through the little intro music that we have at the beginning or something like that. So those are some quick podcasting tips that I personally use. Now then, today I'm excited to share an interview I did with Orange Orey Fiume at the recent Summit for Lean leadership in Jacksonville, Florida. Now, as many listeners likely know, Mr. Fiume is a former Vice President of Finance and Administration at Wiremold. Now, if you've read the book Lean Thinking you've heard the Wiremold story before, they were one of the earliest Lean success stories ever documented in the US So during our conversation, Orey and I reminisce on his days there, as well as some of the challenges Wiremold faced after some management changes. Now, Orey also shares many of the thoughts and opinions related to Lean leadership and accounting, and it was definitely my honor to speak with him. Now, show notes for this episode can be found over@gembapodcast.com and once you're there, just look for episode 81. So again, that's gembapodcast.com and then look for episode 81. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show.

All right, so I'm here with ORI fume. So, Orey, thank you so much for your hon.

It's a pleasure being here, taking time.

We're here in Jacksonville, Florida. The sun is starting to come out here, so we forgot our sunglasses, but.

We'Ll fight through it.

So, Orey, first of all, it's a great pleasure to talk to you. I've been a big fan. You've really influenced me in my career with your work. So thank you for everything that you've done for the whole lean community, really, and especially for taking time to visit with us today.

It's a pleasure.

So let's just go ahead and start, Orey, with why don't you a little bit about your background and how maybe you first came to learn about continuous improvement.

Okay. Background. Just using the work background. Anyway, I was in public accounting and was in public accounting for eight years, and after eight years, decided to go into private industry. Warmold was a client of mine.

Okay.

And not an uncommon path for people in public accounting.

Yes.

And so I joined wire mold in 1978.

Okay.

As their CFO and in the end stayed there until I retired in 2002.

Okay. So we're going to get into Wire Mold in a little bit, but we like to start all of our shows Ori, with our guests sharing maybe a quotation that they like or inspires them. So do you have one?

Yeah. You know, go back to the first question, too. You said, you know, my introduction to continuous improvement, and that really started in the late 80s when we bought a company by the name of Brooks Manufacturing. And they were heavily into total quality and the Deming movement. And that was my first introduction to it. And over the next couple of years, we tried to implement some of that and very honestly messed it up pretty badly. And in 1991, Art Byrne came to join us as our new CEO. And Art had an extensive background in this coming from Danaher. And I can remember at the very beginning, and the word lean was not in the language at that time, but I'll use it as a substitute. And one of the first things he said to us, he says, you got to understand this thing we're trying to do is it's not a cost reduction program. It's not a manufacturing tactic. This is going to be our strategy. This is all about strategy. Everything else follows. And because it's strategic, it's going to affect everything we do in this company, not just what happens in the factory. And I've never forgotten that and has influenced everything that happened since.

So my numbers might be off just A little bit. But I believe it's been 11 years since the first Lien Account Summit.

This is the 11th year.

This is the 11th year. Okay. And then what was it? 27 years when relevance Lost was written.

Is that something that was 1987.

1987. So it's been a while. I'm curious. How do you think we've done the community at large?

Not as well as most of us had hoped. Okay.

Why is that?

What do you think? It's a good question. I'm not sure there's a single reason. I think part of it was at the beginning. We didn't really understand what we were seeing. We kept looking at Toyota and we kept looking and we saw parts of it and we put labels on those parts that turned out to be wrong. We called it the Toyota Production System, and it's not. It's a Toyota business system. We looked at Just In Time, and we called it Just In Time Inventory Management. It's not. And so we constantly misunderstood what we're saying. And then we tried to find the cookbook, the recipe, you know, what are the steps A, B and C that we can do to emulate what they're doing? Yes, and we've been searching for that, and that took the form of tools. You know, if we use these tools, we've got it made.

Yes.

And so we've been floundering, trying to figure out what they're doing. And it's only in, you know, the past few years that I think the community as a whole is beginning to understand that it's really about leadership. Okay. Yeah. You need to learn the tools, but that's just tools. This is really about leadership. And if the leaders of the company don't go through some kind of a personal transformation, it's not going to happen at the enterprise level. And so that's part of it and the other part of it, very honestly, particularly with regards to the accounting side. In our schools, in our accounting programs, we're still teaching the same old stuff that was developed over a hundred years ago and is obsolete and may have been appropriate then, but it's certainly not today. But we're still teaching it as if it's the gospel.

What can we do? What do you think we should do? Like, even at a school level. That's a great point. You know.

There are some schools that have now integrated Lean Accounting into their accounting program, and you see some of them at the Lean Accounting Summit. Every year we have a group of professors and students that we award scholarships to to allow them to come to the summit. So it's beginning to happen, but it's still in its embryonic stages. To answer your question, what can we do? I don't know. The academic community is a very difficult community to crack.

Yeah.

And some, some have gotten it and they're doing it, but got it such a small percentage.

Tell me a wire mold story. What's your. Can you think of a fun wire mold story? Back in the day when you guys were figuring everything out and.

You know, the. As I said a minute ago, you know, unless the leaders really get it and live it and walk it and not just talk it, it's not going to happen. And I can remember in the early days, Hart was in walking through our factory in West Hartford and he walked past an assembly bench where we put together what we call telepower poles, which is a product that's about. These are those two inch poles that you see in an open office space. Ok. Bring wires from a drop ceiling down to the desk. And so it's a two person assembly operation. And as he's walking by, one of the ladies says to him, hey, Art, come here. So he comes over, he says, you know what, we could make more of these every day, except it's a lousy design. So now what does that tell you? First of all, she started understanding the concept of productivity.

Yes.

I can make more of these every day.

Yes.

And she understood what the barrier was.

Yes.

It was a bad design that caused them to spend too much time assembling it.

Yes.

And then she says, I bet you can't do any better than we can. Well, if you know anything about art. Yeah. Okay. Art never turns down a challenge.

Okay.

So Art goes, and he gets the VP of operations, Frank Giantasio, and they on the second shift start learning, getting trained on how to assemble this product.

Okay.

And. And once they were adequately trained, they showed up the next day and they worked a full eight hour shift in a union factory assembling this product for eight hours. Wow. They do. And at the end of the day, he went over to the lady that challenged him and he said, you're right, we're going to change it.

Wow.

That stood to the day we retired. That story became part of Legendary. It was told as if it happened yesterday. Wow. But you talk about changing our culture of a company.

Yeah.

Okay. Think of what that did in that workforce in terms of their understanding as to how this was really the way we were going to live when the CEO can come down. And you know, because one thing people Learned about art pretty quickly is art fell and feels today all work is honorable. Now, it may contain waste, but it's honorable. Doesn't matter what job you have in the company, from the highest to the lowest. It's honorable work. And people sense that in seconds when he talks to them. And so he gained such credibility and trust with the workforce just with that little story about spending eight hours doing the work they were doing.

Yes, yes. Now that's powerful. So we were talking beforehand. I wasn't sure if I was going to go there, but I think it's important to go there and not duck the obvious question. But, you know, wire mold hasn't hung on quite like it was when you guys were there. Do you want to. Is there anything. Your thoughts on that or not necessarily pointing fingers or anything like that?

Let me preface that, my answer by saying that I have not been back to WarnerMel since the day I retired in 2002. So anything I know is second or third hand. And probably the best source of what happened after Ratnar retired is the book Better Thinking, Better Results. Yeah.

By Bob.

Bob Emiliani. After we retired, he came out with a second edition of that book that had a new chapter at the end that talked about why I'm old. Post art. Nori.

Yes.

So I can paraphrase what basically what Bob said and what happened was the company that we sold to in 2000, for whatever reason, never really embraced Lean as a strategy. And they let us do it. I mean, they didn't interfere with what we were trying to do, so they let us do it without any constraints, but they never really embraced it or understood it. So when we retired, they basically replaced us with people from the electrical industry that didn't know anything about Lean and good people, good intentions, but didn't understand Lean. And so every time that a problem came up, they did the best they could. They solved it with the knowledge they had, which was traditional knowledge. And, you know, when you do that, you know, you know, if you got a problem with delivery, you add more inventory. You know, it's. And so little by little, step by step. Yeah. Some of the things that we put in place became undone.

Right.

You know, part of Lean accounting is to. Is to basically abandon standard cost accounting.

Yes.

Because it hides problems. And what we put in place really became much more transparent. You know, sometime, I don't know exactly how long it took, but at some point in time, they reinstituted standard cost accounting.

That break your heart a little.

No comment.

Okay.

But it's, you know, it's Just so, you know, not bad people.

Yeah.

Not bad intentions.

Yeah.

But didn't have the fundamental knowledge or the belief system about what Lean is about.

So Real Numbers was the first Lean accounting book that I ever read. So, okay, you and Jean. And we've had Jean on before, so fantastic. Thought leader there herself. I'm curious, though. It's a great book, but if you could go back and revise it today, would you change anything? Would you add anything? Would you remove anything, or would you leave it just as is?

Actually, we were asked to revise it probably about, I'm gonna say, four years ago, maybe five years ago. And we talked about that, and at that point in time, we said, you know, was there anything that we said we'd take away and. No, not really. Is there anything we should add? Couldn't really think of much. So the answer back then was no. Today, if I were to redo it, I would add one more chapter.

Okay.

Because our schools are still teaching. You go to get your masters, your mba, they're still teaching metrics, like, you know, ROI being the golden metric, or Rona or. And so I would add a chapter that more fully explained how Lean actually helps to enhance those metrics. And. But that's it. But. Yeah, but it's. That would be the only thing.

Okay. Well, the last part of the show that we like to do that we call the reflection checks. And so this is just a chance for me to just ask some basic questions. And the first one is, you know, we spend a lot of time in Lean talking about continuous improvement and respect for people. With continuous improvements, the tools, the things we can. We can do, we can see, we can touch. Respect for people, on the other hand, is a little bit harder to define sometimes. So I'm curious, what does respect for people mean to you?

Well, it means two things. One, it goes back to the story I just told about art in terms of respecting people's work no matter what it is. I'm sure you've heard people go into an organization, be it a factory, an office or whatever, and see somebody doing a job and saying, boy, I couldn't do that for eight hours. That's disrespectful.

Yeah.

Okay. I mean, it's a job. It's honorable work. That's disrespectful. Maybe it's not something that would excite you for eight hours, but you got to be careful. The other thing about respect for people is that we constantly underestimate people's capabilities. And to me, respect for people Means how do me personally, as a leader, help people bring out the best that they can do? Okay. We ended up at Wiremold. We had a lady that middle aged, was a secretary to one of the vice presidents. Okay. And I had a chance to interact with her quite often because this vice president traveled a lot. Okay. And so I got to know her quite well. And I said, judy, I said, why don't you. You've got a lot more capability than the job you're doing. She said, well, I never went to college and stuff like that. I said, well, why don't you? And she said, look at me. She said, really? I said, yeah. I said, we have a tuition reimbursement plan. Go to college. Your kids are grown, they're out of the house. You got the time. And she thought about it and she actually signed up and went to college and got her degree.

Wow.

And during that process, we ended up needing a credit analyst. And so I said, how'd you like to try your hand at being a credit analyst? She said, really? I said, sure. I said, I think you're smart enough to do that. And so she did. She eventually became our credit manager.

Wow.

Before she retired, she became the president of the Connecticut Credit Managers Association.

All because of this one.

Because of basically saying, you're capable of doing more. Okay. Why don't you try it?

Yeah.

And so to me, really, you know.

With that one conversation.

So for me, respect for people is basically how do I help them be the best they can be.

Yeah. Beautiful. What's the best advice you've ever received?

Received.

Could be your grandpa, grandma, mom, dad, anything.

The best advice I ever received? Well, it wasn't received personally.

Okay.

But remember George Burns? George was being interviewed on his 99th birthday. Okay. And the reporter said, Mr. Burns, how does it feel to be this old? And George looks at Daniel, says, young man, you don't understand. I cannot keep my body from aging, but I can keep from getting old. Okay. And I've never forgotten that old is up here.

Yes.

Okay.

Yes.

And I don't care whether you're 99 or 69 or 49. Yeah. I've seen 49 year olds think old.

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

And so, you know, I've tried to keep that in mind. As you know, I've been retired for 13 years now and. But I'm still active in these type of events, and I will until I probably drop.

Yeah. Do you have a personal productivity habit others might benefit from?

No, I don't know.

Yesterday you said one.

Okay.

I heard You. I was just.

Remind me what I said.

Honestly, you were telling someone, you got to learn how to say no.

Yes.

And I thought that's very profound because it's something that I struggle with.

Yeah. When I retired, my wife and I sat down and one of the first things we did was we came to. We had a discussion and came to an agreement as to what the mix of work time and retirement time would be. And because I said, you know, I'm not going to not work 100%, I'm not going to be retired 100%. So we came to an agreement on what the mix would be.

Okay.

And at that time, it was 20% work and 80% retirement travel, mostly travel. And I've been able to stick to that mainly at the beginning, it was tough because you keep getting requests for this and that. And the other thing, you have to learn how to say no in a way that doesn't annoy people.

Yeah.

But that allows you to live your life the way you want to.

Yeah. One of my favorite books I've read recently is called Essentialism, and it's all about being able to say no.

You know, if you don't, you get overwhelmed.

Exactly. Exactly. I'm curious, throughout your career and even today, if you're ever feeling, I don't know, down in the dumps or you're just having a rotten day, do you have any tips or advice for how people could maybe come out of it or maybe what you do to recharge?

You know, it's interesting you say that. My wife and I had this discussion recently. You know, my wife and I are both by nature introverts, but people misunderstand what that means. People say, if you're an introvert, you're shy. Not true. An introvert says, where do you go to recharge your batteries? Okay. So an extrovert, they recharge their batteries by being around people. An introvert charges his or her batteries by basically going off in the corner with a boat. Yes. Okay. And so my wife, I. Are both like that. And so we. When we have those days, you know, and they don't necessarily. In fact, they almost never happen at the same time. But if she's got one or I have one, we both perfectly understand that the other one is going to go off in another room and just sit for the day and maybe read a book or whatever and recharge their battery. Yes. And that's okay.

Yes. My son is 9 years old, and it's the same way, you know, we'll be out and about, and he has a good time playing with everybody. But then as soon as we get home, he runs to his room and his little Lego table in the corner, and he'll play Legos for two hours.

Just recharging his batteries.

Exactly. Exactly.

And that's okay.

Exactly.

As long as you understand it.

And he's quiet. So it's beautiful.

Amen.

Yeah. So, Ori, again, thank you for everything you've done. It's an honor to meet you. And again, thank you for all the work that you've done for the Lean movement and continue to do and speaking here. So let's just wrap the show up. Maybe you can share some final words of wisdom for everybody. And then, I don't know if you're active on social media. I'm not a big Twitter guy myself or anything like that, but do you mess with any of that?

I do none of that.

Okay.

I'm sorry, maybe that's a joke.

Don't apologize.

It's a generational thing. But no, I don't do Facebook and I don't do Twitter, and I don't. No. Yeah.

All right. Any final words of wisdom for the community out there?

Listening, you know, get passionate, you know, really focus on this, and if you have a passion for it, it rubs off on other people.

Yeah. Great.

Thank you, Ron. Thank you very much.

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