GA 082 | Lean and Human Resources with Cheryl Jekiel

You're listening to episode 82 with Cheryl Jekyll.

Welcome to the Gemba Academy Podcast, the show that's focused on helping individuals and companies achieve breakthrough results using the same continuous improvement principles leveraged by companies such as Toyota Del Monte and the U.S. department of Defense. And now, here's your host, Ron Pereira.

Hey, there. This is Ron Pereira with Gemba Academy, and I'd like to welcome you to another edition of the Gemba Academy Podcast. As always, thank you so much for taking time out of your day and your week to listen to the show and for watching our Lean and Six Sigma training videos over@gembacademy.com now then, today I'm excited to share an interview I did with Cheryl Jeckel at the recent Summit for Lean Leadership in Jacksonville, Florida. Now, Cheryl currently oversees the Lean Leadership Resource center, and she also has more than 25 years experience as a human resources professional with a special focus on how lean thinking principles can and should permeate all aspects of an organization, including human resources. So during our conversation, Cheryl and I talk about many things, including how she's been able to integrate Lean and HR over her career. And I'm confident even if you don't work in hr, you're gonna find value in Cheryl's thoughts and wisdom. Now, as you'll hear, Cheryl also has an intense passion for her work and definitely left me feeling energized. Now, show notes for this episode can be found over@gembapodcast.com now, once you're there, just look for episode 82. So again, that's GembaPodcast. And look for episode 82. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. All right, so I am here with.

Cheryl, and we are here in beautiful Jacksonville, Florida, at the Summit for Lean Leadership. I think that's what we're calling it this first two days, right? The summit for lean leadership. Sam McPherson and the guys, it's been a fantastic day so far, and today's going on. It looks like it's starting off well. So, Cheryl, thank you for taking time.

To visit with us.

We've got a pretty good set here for us to shoot against.

Yeah.

And then some.

Yeah.

So, Cheryl, first of all, I really enjoyed your talk yesterday. It was awesome. I don't think we hear enough about the role of HR and that type of organizational drive. I think we need more of that in the Lean community. So it was really great to hear that. So I want to explore that a little bit today. But let's start with. Just tell us A little bit about your background and then maybe how you first came to learn about continuous improvement.

Oh, man. I was young, little kid practically. So one of my careers started off in financial planning and I decided to leave the family business to go into human resources. My father looked at me like I decided to join the circus. But no, I really want to do HR work. So I went to work for Sweetheart Cup, Big maker of paper plates and straws at the time. And they did a continuous improvement. They brought in a company, they had literally silos filled with cups that had no home. They just were producing any, you know, just producing and producing. So they came in and needed to help the company and become profitable. So as an HR person being put through the training immediately, I wasn't very clear how it really applied to me. Noteworthy, by the way, the vice president of HR at the time did not participate as he did not think it applied to HR. And even though I was like 24 years old, I'm like, I don't think that's correct.

Yeah.

So I went through the training and I went back to my desk and I noticed the woman next to me who was a file clerk, a full time file clerk. And I just happened to ask the question, if the things she filed were like necessary, was there another copy of them somewhere else? And literally within like 45 minutes, we discovered the entire job, this entire 40 hour week job was just completely unnecessary. And it always touched me after that. So we reassigned the person. It's not like we fired them, but it showed me how people could devote their lives to work that just literally doesn't need to be done. And it's just sitting around you and it's insidious and you just don't notice it. So that was a big lesson. And then I was also at the time doing 401 hardship withdrawals. So I was a young professional. I don't know if you know much about them, but there's like six ways you qualify. You have to do all this documentation. We had 10 plants and every time someone turned in an application for one, we did them differently. So it'd be like, well, we need this, we need that, we need this. And it was taking up two thirds of my time. So then we applied the principles of continuous improvement. Figured out once and for all, what did it really take. We streamlined the process. We got everybody clear what it looked like, kind of got them all on the standard work and what was taking me 30 hours a week dropped to like an hour. And so it just again showed me that There was this huge waste going on in the function that was obviously then robbing us the time to be more strategic and really impact the business. I fairly quickly understood it wasn't so much that you could get rid of 401 admin time, that was a place to practice. But quickly I was able to devote my time into the main value stream mapping of the business and the HR topics. We made huge changes to how people did work, cross train, put in a skill, other major changes. It was also when I finally then really saw. So I was in a plant of 1000 people in Chicago and we would have jobs like a forklift driver and someone who operates a packer operators. And I quickly saw that that is such a limited view of how a human being actually can contribute. So we started to put them in teams. We put quality at the point of manufacture and you started to see how there was a whole department doing something that could be done by the operators. But the exciting part of that, to this day I'm not bored with is watching the lights go on for a person when they know they're not just a packer, they're not just a forklift driver. You see their face come to light and you see that they see that they have a huge contribution. They, like any other adult in the room, have plenty to say about what's going wrong and what to do about it. And I don't think any of us ever tire of that.

Yes.

Because it's like seeing a whole human being come alive and you see their lives change and the environment change and the fact that that you make the right amount of cups cheaper is like, it's kind of in the background.

That's a result of this awesome people driven.

It's meaningful work. It's very worth doing. Yes, it's very worth doing.

Well, I want to dive so much into what you're doing. So one thing I like to do at the start of all of our episodes is have our guests share a quotation or two, sometimes or three, however many you have that possibly inspires you. Do you have a quotation that you like?

I think one of the underlying ones that it came from a story was just basically the simple one of what are you going to do to make sure this never happens again?

Okay.

And the reason why that one's always amused me is the first time I ever heard it, I was working on a 401k plan and we sent out statements and I was so mortified because there was an error in them. So that meant 6,000 people had a statement with an error and I had worked days to get these done right.

Yes.

So the head of HR again says to me, so what are you going to do so this never happens again? And I perceive this at first to be the most cruel question. Like I already feel bad, I'm already mortified. And you ask me a question like that. And then I came to understand it's one of the most important questions that's really again underneath it. Because look at the purpose it gave my work. I truly went back and uncovered where did this happen? How would we redesign the work so it really couldn't happen again? How to do it right the first time. And it helped me see, see that's really one of the cornerstones of thank God we make mistakes in a way because they're the next place to explore how that happened. It's kind of fun to figure out where it went wrong and then to devote my energy. So to this day when I mentor people and mistakes are made, I just always try and make it fun and enjoyable to say, well the fun thing is we'll go figure it out and just get them to stop beating themselves. It's an opportunity. And again, they're ready to go. I made a mistake, I sent it to the wrong place or I did it wrong. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. And again, watching their spirit flourish, what even they would drive themselves kind of down about, I'm like no, no, no. Life's too short to be.

So what do you think? Just at a high level, the role of HR is in a lean transformation. Just a high level question.

Well, it's huge. I mean really in a lot of ways it's a people based on change. HR is oftentimes the keeper of culture. They certainly are the keeper of several people based processes. That's why it's always just almost shocked me when I see how many companies don't even have them at the table. Like weren't sure why they needed to be involved.

That was going to be my next question. Why aren't more companies. But yeah, keep going.

Yeah. I have this whole thing about I think what causes HR to be not contributing the way they could in terms of I don't think enough is asked of the HR function. And a lot of HR people, professionals for whatever reason are not as strong in their business skills. So they'll have a tendency to look at this like I don't know what it has to do with me. You're all out there, you're making whatever we make Faster, better and so it doesn't seem to apply to them. And I don't think there's clear about how to build those skills. Why you have to recruit the right kinds of leaders. How do you hold people accountable in a way that again you're supporting making mistakes? The first way I really understood something that had to change is HR participating in, in punishing people for making mistakes. I mean again, it just creates the wrong culture to make those opportunities.

I wonder if it comes back to the whole silo mentality. You know, HR here, finance here, operations here, and everybody works in their own silos. You know, in a traditional company, non lean thinking company. You know, I've seen that in my own career at some past lives where, you know, everybody just kind of stayed in their own little box and they didn't bother collaborating across boxes, if you will, and it caused huge problems. So I don't know if that maybe as part of it in more of a traditional based company. Yeah.

I've certainly come to see the power in getting those support functions to work much more closely together and what they can accomplish. I still would say the much bigger issue is HR in general does not see how powerful they could be. They just don't think they're that impactful.

So somebody's watching us right now and they're like, yeah, that's me or that's our guy.

That I don't understand how we could be powerful.

Right. So what do you say to that person?

First thing I usually work with HR people about is realizing that they have the impact to touch the outside customer. They'll usually look at me like, what do you mean? And I'm like, well first of all, if you're helping develop the employees and the culture and how we communicate and how things are around here, that touches the customer. And so when you create internal customer support, then you touch outside customers. The more they see that the things they do can have significant impact, the more it helps raise the bar of how they see themselves. The other thing is really working on business skills. You know, if you don't know the revenue of your business, the key business metrics you're working on and what the people parts of that see inside of most every business strategy there's huge people implications. But HR has not usually seen our role is to step up and help with that. So hence in a lean enterprise, they're not clear. What are all the people dynamics? How do we need to change every HR process to help drive that? They're huge drivers. They just a lot of Times don't see it in front of them. And so the more it's like, no, no, no, just process the paperwork, it's like. Or basically they're reactive. A lot of HR folks end up in a reactive mode. Like, I'll just tell you when I want to hire someone, I'll tell you what kind of person, and you just go get them. Right. Instead of participating, if strategically that makes sense. And how do they really contribute to that entire spectrum of those kinds of issues?

So before we started the interview, you were telling a story and I stopped you because I wanted you to tell it on camera.

Here.

You were telling me a story about a gentleman on an airplane.

Why don't you tell us about that? Yeah. And this links back to kind of understanding the role of admin in our life. So I got on a plane and I happened to treat myself to first class, which wasn't very common at the time, but it wasn't very much money. It happened to prompt me. And so I set up in first class and I lugged on a suitcase and a big briefcase that was just packed to the brim. And so I couldn't lift it up on top. And so the very nice gentleman next to me, I said, could you help me with this? So even he hauled it up and got it up there. So we sit down and he says, what do you do? And I said, well, you know, I'm currently writing a book on lean human resources. And he said, well, fancy that. I'm in lean. I have a lean background. So Freud, we got to talking. So then he says, what do you think the greatest waste of all is? He said in one word, tell me the greatest waste of all. He had this kind of mentoring energy. I could tell I was really with someone who kind of knew his stuff. And I'm like racking my brain. It's this, it's that. And then he finally says, it's space. I'm like, that wouldn't have crossed my mind as it was space. So he said, pull out of your briefcase one of the most common forms you use in your HR group. So I pulled out our personnel action form. That's how you hire people, change their pay, write them up, everything's on this form. And he literally, inside of a minute, showed me how many blanks are on that form that don't need to be there. So we just took a red and I started to say, you know what? This two sided form is just mostly waste. You write it in, you retype, you write it, you type it and you spend all this time keeping track of data points that just don't need to be tracked. So then what? He challenged me. He showed me the briefcase or suitcase he was carrying with all of his belongings to go to China to do a major deal for two weeks. And the thing was like this. And he said, if I'm the leader of Lean, I need to model that behavior. So when I got to Orlando, I went in my hotel room, I pulled everything out that was with me, including, like, you know, double toothpaste clothes I didn't need to wear, much less an entire briefcase that I needed this much paper. So I got rid of it, and I started to carry a very sleek, beautiful silver Brookstone briefcase that I use all my clothes and my belongings on the other side. And people commonly tell me they can't believe I fit in that. And it's not about the space, it's not about how much less I carry, but it's about, do you live this? Do I breathe? This is it with me all the time. Because people are looking to the models to say, what is this really about?

Yeah. Yeah.

So anyway, and as an HR person after that, by the way, I went back. I found out we had 287 forms in the HR department. They were everywhere. And they take the same information, name, ranks, you know, Social Security number, and it repeats and it repeats. Most of them, we consolidated. You know, we really need like 14 forms.

So, I mean, obviously that had huge. Even just from a lean productivity perspective, your folks had to be far more effective.

Yeah. And so if you go back to the last conversation about why they're not contributing more to the Lean enterprise, they're.

Buried in 200 forms.

They're buried in form. And I'm not kidding you, literally, if you walk up to them and talk to them about being in more important meetings or what else they could do, they're like, oh, I have forms everywhere. The other thing I do with HR people I mentor is I really just try and get all the paperwork out. I take the desk away, I get them to sit at a nice small roundtable where they communicate with people. Like, that's your space. This other job, you know, you're never going to get anywhere with helping this company or organization by doing all the paper paperwork.

Yeah.

And computers do it kind of for you if you let them.

Exactly, exactly. You know, Cheryl, yesterday during your talks, you said something that being straight, it actually really moved me a little bit, and it was a little bit touchy feely stuff. But you talked about the Role of love in the organization. Can you talk a little bit about that?

What it means to me to have love in the environment, in your workspace? You know, I've seen over the years, that was a word that I've never heard, really involved in the workplace. And yet even just as I mentioned when I saw the lights turn on with people and the kind of respect and the sacredness of each other, you know, treating each other partly also by removing the kinds of treatment that hurt each other and really realizing great leaders have a way that they support and lift the people around them. And that's very much a heart to heart connection I certainly find in my own work. Just in the last couple of weeks, I've been involved in a very complicated employee relations issues of someone who's probably not the right fit in their role. And when I look at that, I need to bring my whole heart to that because it's about connecting with a human being. You know, when we look at potentially even separating someone from employment, that's one of the most difficult things you can get involved. And again, when I've brought a lot of love to that situation, then I find a lot of times the right things happen. So I believe the kind of workplaces that are going to produce employees that feel really engaged, really part of things, they can help you solve problems, they can help do the most amazing things if you don't treat each other with love, you know, and I always tell people, I think I mentioned yesterday, it's not the same kind of love you might have for your family or friend, but it is a very real verb of how you think about it.

The fact of the matter is you spend sometimes more time with your work colleagues than you do your loved ones.

Right.

So, I mean, it only goes to show that you should have some sort of, you know, deeper relationship than just, you know, kind of a normal job kind of thing.

Yeah, I think it really goes to speaking how we need to really connect with each other. If you're leading a group, if you can't really touch other, each like make a connection, life to life, person to person, it's very hard to build on top of that. Like everything else that you might want to stack on top of it. These are people.

A few episodes ago, Simon Sinek came onto the show. I don't know if you know Simon. And he told the Barry Wehmiller story, I'm sure you know, and that, you know, Bob Chapman doesn't talk about head count, talks about heart count, you know.

And touching the lives of People, Yeah.

This is exactly what you're talking about here. So. Fantastic. Well, you know, we. We are lucky enough and thank you for allowing us to videotape.

This was fun. I enjoyed it.

We're going to share that. But what I want to do now, to wrap up this kind of podcast, video cast, whatever we're calling it, we're doing both, is kind of transition and into what we call a reflection section. So the first question that I have is, you know, we spend a lot of time in Lean talking about kind of the two pillars. Continuous improvement, respect for people. With continuous improvement. It's the tools, the things we do. It's a little bit easier to touch, to understand, you know, to get respect for people, on the other hand, can be a bit more, I don't know, esoteric, harder to define, Lots of books written on the topic, but really, it's still kind of like, what is it? So I'm curious, what do you think respect for people means?

To me, it partly starts with just, you know, an underlying value, and I think I mentioned that sacredness of humanity, like, of what a person really is able to contribute, the fullness. One of the phrases I like is bringing your whole self to work. So I think it's recognizing a person, their whole self. Not the forklift driver, the whole being that's in front of you. The heart, the soul, what they're capable of, everything they bring the whole thing. It's really appreciating the whole person and showing up that way yourself. Be your whole self.

Yes. What's the best advice you've ever received?

When you're upset, wait up to seven days to handle the situation.

Seven days, wow.

Okay.

I've heard that the more upset, the longer you should wait.

So don't hit send on that email.

Don't send again. Part of creating great relationships with people is not responding out of a trigger point. So we all get triggered, we get frustrated, torqued, whatever. And when I learned to wait it out, I really saw the benefits of. Then you're down to what the real issue is. Whatever part touched you, touched your ego, whatever took it personally, that all goes by the wayside. So that was the best advice I think I ever got.

If you're having a bad day or you're feeling down and you need to kind of re. Energize yourself, do you have, like, some tips or tricks that you do personally?

Well, that's an interesting question. I do probably one of two things. One is, by the way, shake my schedule up. Do something completely. I usually Encourage people every so often to take a day, a work day, and work somebody somewhere different. If you're in Chicago, go down to Michigan Avenue if you like, go somewhere you like to be, come out to the water. If we don't get out of the office and out of our normal workspaces, it's hard to feel inspired. And so that's one main way that it's just as productive. But it's like, you know, change your schedule, do something really different.

Yeah. Do you have a personal productivity habit that others might benefit from besides packing and the one that's just a great tip?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I think even in my office, even though people think it's a little quirky, I've still even 5 s' ed my environment, my home environment, where I get ready for work is 5 EST. Even up in my hotel room now. Everything is in a certain place and I'm not necessarily like that. But what it's shown me is if I know where my stapler is and it's always in the same place, then during the day I don't have to worry about where the stapler is. And so I really try and make sure I keep a lot of the waste out and just have what I need, have it where I need it and let the rest go. So it's that day to day, kind of keeping that out of my way.

Cheryl, is there a skill or kind of area within the lean body of knowledge that you feel you need to get better at in order to become a better lean thinker?

I think it's my coaching skills I've come to appreciate how often when people ask questions, I actually give them an answer. And so my current thing is really working on asking questions and let people learn for themselves. And so it's like an underlying coach coaching skill.

Yes.

So that's my goal.

Yes.

Okay, last question. Tell us about your book.

The book. So my book on lean human resources is really a primer. I think it talks about one. There's two sides of the coin. Part of lean HR is working on the human resources function and taking HR work and applying lean principles and even values and creating, applying that kind of. Of culture to the HR department. But in a lot of ways that's really a primer to also or a base foundation to applying it to the other part. So it's looking at when you're going to do a lean transformation or support a lean enterprise. What are all the people aspects? Basically redesigning HR processes to best support that and fully participating. I like to see HR people come all the way up to being able to facilitate groups. To me, they should be an active or could be an active component. So it's really both sides of that. And so the book fully explores one, how to apply it to hr, but all the ways that it can contribute to the broader enterprise.

Fantastic. Well, we'll link to it in the show notes for this episode. So, Cheryl, again, thank you for taking time.

Yeah, I enjoyed it.

You were awesome yesterday. Can't wait for your talk. Was it Thursday or Friday that you're talking?

Thursday.

Thursday.

Okay, Thursday.

Well, we'll be excited to capture that as well on video, so. So keep up the good work. How can people connect with you? Are you on social media?

I run. So I founded the Lean Leadership Resource center, which is really meant to be a clearinghouse for different kinds of things. The work I'm doing in long term learning communities is on there in some workshops, but it isn't meant to just feature my work. I think of it like the art gallery of Lean Services. So it's got building Lean links to different HR services and all that. I'll have to put Gemba Academy.

Yes.

Thank you. It's meant to be a place people can find things that all work together.

And what's the URL for that?

Lean Leadership Resource Center. So www.lean LeadershipResource Center. And it's gonna be continuing to develop, so I'm looking to continue to put things on it all the time.

Well, we'll put this video on there. How's that deal?

That's a deal.

Thank you. All right. Thank you, Cheryl.

Sure. Okay.

That really was fun.

Thanks for listening to the Gemba Academy podcast. Now it's time to take a free, no strings attached, fully functional test drive of Gemba Academy's School of Lean and Six Sigma. Over@gembaacademy.com Gain immediate access to more than 500 Lean and Six Sigma training videos free of charge at gembacademy.com.

Sam.