GA 090 | How to Drive Fear out of Your Organization with Dan Markovitz

You're listening to episode 90 with Dan Markovitz.

Welcome to the Gemba Academy Podcast, the show that's focused on helping individuals and companies achieve breakthrough results using the same continuous improvement principles leveraged by companies such as Toyota Del Monte and the U.S. department of Defense. And now, here's your host, Ron Pereira.

Hey there. This is Ron Pereira with Gemba Academy, and I'd like to welcome you to another edition of the Gemba Academy podcast. As always, thank you so much for taking time out of your day in your week to listen to the show and for watching our Lean and Six Sigma training videos over at Gembacademy.com we definitely appreciate each and every one of you. Now then, we are releasing this episode on December 24, 2015. So if you celebrate it, I like to wish you a very merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Hope everything is safe and you have some time to reflect and hopefully relax a little bit with your family and friends. But as you're relaxing and thinking about 2016, I'd like to encourage you to listen to this episode. It's a shorter episode. It's about 15, 16 minutes long once it gets rolling. And it's a visit that I had with Dan Markovitz. It's been about a month or so ago when we were at the AME conference in Cincinnati, and Dan and I sat down and we talked about a really important topic that I don't think gets talked about enough. And that topic is fear, and especially how to drive fear out of any organization. And so, as you're thinking about maybe reflecting on 2015 and 2016, looking forward, I'd encourage you to look back and ask yourself how well you did at driving fear out of your organization or even just in the. In the folks that you interact with, perhaps your family. So I think it's a. It's a really good message that we need to hear from time to time. So links to everything we talk about in the show, including Dan's book, the Fit Organization, and Dan's websites and so forth, can be found over@gembapodcast.com just look for episode 9090. So again, gembapodcast.com and look for episode 90. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show.

All right, so we are here in Cincinnati, Ohio, at the AME 2015 conference, and I'm here with my friend Dan Markovitz.

Ron, pleasure to see you, as always.

Yes, thank you for coming on again. I think this is a third time that we've done AME interviews over the last few years. Maybe we'll do it again again next year in Dallas.

Dallas.

Dallas next year, yeah.

All right, so we're going to talk.

About an interesting topic. You and I were talking earlier, talking about fear today, but before we get into that, let's talk a little bit about your book, Building the Fit Organization. We had you on episode 57, I believe, at the podcast, and the book hadn't been released yet, so we kind of gave a little teaser to the book. We talked a little bit about it. But how's it been going since it's come out?

It's been going great. It hits the bookstores or the bookstore Amazon the end of September, and I've done a few talks and workshops and presentations based on it, and it's really resonated with people, I think. We're a community that's been talking about Toyota for so long, and there didn't seem to be a need to talk about anything else. But I think people have really resonated with the idea of not having to talk about Toyota and Freed to say, oh, you mean I can talk about improvement with different metaphors. And in this case, it's the metaphor of physical fitness.

Yeah, love it.

I think people have said, yeah, this is great, because at my company, they don't want to hear about Toyota. So as I mentioned to you, I think in the past, I really don't care whether they talk about fitness, but just the idea that they can feel free to say continuous improvement. How can I couch that in a language? Yeah, make it your own. And whether that's art, music, painting, sports, fitness, it doesn't matter. Make it your own and tell a story. You don't have to talk about Toyota to talk about continuous improvement. And people seem to really like that.

Good, good.

All right.

Well, Dan, what we're going to talk about today is just really, I guess, a really important topic as it relates to continuous improvement. And it's fear specifically, I guess. Why some, maybe traditional, traditionally run companies may have more fear within their workplace. People are, you know, maybe afraid to try new things, or maybe they're afraid of getting in trouble if they mess something up. Something like that. So maybe they live in this world of, I don't know, paralysis, you know, for lack of a better word.

Why is that?

You know, Dr. Deming talked about in point number eight in of his 14 points, he mentioned driving out fear. And at this simplest or most obvious level, I think we've always said, well, you have to drive out fear of people losing their jobs. You can't lose your job. You have to give a job commitment. You're not going to lose your job as a result of improvement. And that's okay. I think most people within the lean community get that. But I think there's a lot more fear than we recognize. And all the Red Bull stock refrigerators and foosball tables and on site massage facilities is not going to change. I think people are afraid of being ignored. They put up an idea for whether they have a suggestion box or they put up an idea on an improvement board and the manager doesn't look at it for a week or two weeks or three weeks. And they feel. They're afraid. They feel badly about this. They're embarrassed. Why isn't it being responded to? They're afraid of being ridiculed. That was a stupid idea. They're afraid of being laughed at. They're afraid of making a mistake. They're afraid of results that don't work out quite right. And hearing about it at the end of the year in the performance review. Well, you know, Ron, eight months ago you tried doing this and I don't know if that was a really great use of company resources. You really should have checked with me before that.

Yeah.

And I think people are afraid. And it's one thing to say, well, we want improvement. It's one thing to say, I would love for you guys to be putting up ideas. We've got our Kaizen board and that's great. It's another thing to drive the fear out around it and make people comfortable and proud and happy to do that. There was a session earlier this morning, a gentleman from Canada Pacific, the railway company, he talks about the importance of positive feedback. And he said it's not just enough to say good job or it's not just enough to criticize people if they goof up, but rather he says, you've got to be really specific. Hey, thank you for. Thank you for presenting this Kaizen idea. Here's why it's important to me. Here's why it's important to the group or to the company. And can you do more of that? That's the kind of communication, that's the kind of feedback that drives fear out.

When there's brain science that supports it. Right. And dopamine and serotonin. These things are released when you give people positive feedback. Specific positive feedback.

Exactly. Not just general like, hey, thanks guys. You put up a bunch of 15 ideas this week. That's not the same kind of positive feedback to drive out fear. Yeah, it's Very specific.

I'm a real world example. You did this to me. You and I were exchanging emails about something or other, and I think I introduced you to. I don't know even who it was, some. Some company or something like that. And you called me up and you just said, thank you for that. And you're very specific. And it made me feel great, you know, I mean, and that was awesome. That's, I think, a real world example of we're not necessarily colleagues, you know, we're associates or whatever, but. And really it's more humanity, right? I mean, the way we treat each other as human beings, really.

And, you know, I think sometimes we forget that we're so wrapped up in the Kaizen boards and suggestions and improvements that we forget that people need the pat on the back. They need specific encouragement. They need to have their contribution, even if it's just a suggestion tied to the success of something larger. Yes. There's something else that occurred to me, and I actually wrote about this. In the book. There's a guy named Professor Bob Maurer. He's a professor of behavioral sciences at ucla and he talks about the difficulty of change. So you can go to change management conferences and read change management books all day long. And he says, change is scary. It evokes fear, and it's speaks to the amygdala, which I guess Seth Godin calls the lizard brain, and people call it the reptile brain. But anyway, it elicits fight or flight response. And so he says if you want someone, for example, who has an unhealthy lifestyle, really overweight, smokes a lot, eats junk food, drinks too much, and you say, listen, we want to put you on an exercise program, so cut out all that stuff. And I want you to start running or walking three miles a day. She's going to shut down because it's too much change too soon, too fast, and her amygdala is going to go, whoa, I don't know if I can. I can't do that. So he says, if you want to affect behavioral change, make it small. Hey, listen, while you're watching tv, what I'd like you to do is just walk in place for two minutes, okay? That's it. That's not so scary. I can do that. Do that for a week. All right, let's ramp that up to three minutes. And so as we make small changes, we make small improvements, we can avoid the fear that I think underlies a lot of organizations, because again, even if it's, I have a Kaizen idea it's going to scare people because wait a minute, I've been doing my job this way for 17 years and all of a sudden you want me to change this radically? Maybe. No, let's change it just a little bit. And in fact, I think Paul Akers is, even if he hasn't read the literature, I think he is on top of this or he's onto something. He says two second lead.

Yeah.

We're not changing your job entirely. You're not changing your job entirely. I'm not asking you to just figure out how to do it two seconds faster. Yeah. That's not scary every day. Yeah, exactly. And who's gonna be afraid of that? It's two seconds. It's nothing Titanic. It's no seismic change. And gradually you do two seconds every day. And a year from now you're gonna be a much, much different operation. Your job will be much, much different.

And not only that, you've developed that habit now of making improvements every day.

Yeah. And of course you've got all the ancillary benefits as well. So you've got the habit, you've got the fact that you've developed the problem solving muscle that you need as opposed to trying to do some heavy big lift on day one and you don't know how to do it. You're not very good at the PDSA cycle, so now all of a sudden you've done it 100 times in a row.

And FastCat people stand around a circle every day and they talked about their two second improvements from the day before. They're getting recognition, they feel awesome, they feeling empowered and ready to go and do it again.

And because it's a 2 second specific 2 second improvement they're talking about, there's that positive feedback related to something concrete. Hey, my job is easier, her job is easier. The work I'm sending to you is of higher quality. Thank you very much. Exactly. And so I think we underestimate the pervasiveness or the prevalence of fear. We discount it because we're so tied up in thinking about tools and Kaizen boards and whatnot.

Well, the crazy thing about fear as well, is talking about brain science is cortisol. Right. Is released in your body.

Yeah.

And it can, it can make you sick physically, you know, or worse. People dying at their desk, you know, because they're paralyzed and it's devastating. Right. But it's, it's reality in many organizations that it's not just fear, isn't just causing you continuous improvement to not thrive. It's Killing people or making them sick or making them miserable in their lives, and they go home and they're miserable. Bob Chapman, right, talks about this. It's just gonna make every formula just the belief that everybody's heart matters and that everybody's an important piece of this machine. And how you leave that person when they leave work is way more important than what they do eight to five.

And that is so pervasive, it is so clear at Barry Wehmiller. Bob makes no bones about it, that this is what Barry Miller, Barry Wehmiller exists to do, to enrich people's lives. And you hear stories from him or from other people that work there that when people come in to Barry Wehmiller or if they're in a company that's been acquired to Barry by Barry Waymiller, they feel like, yeah, I've heard this stuff. This is a bunch of hooey. It's just a bunch of hot air. You're just talking. And within a month, they realize, holy cow, these guys are serious about this. My health, my welfare, my well being, my growth really is central to this company's mission. It's paramount. It's not something we'll look at, maybe if financial results are okay. No, first it's me, then it's the bottom line. And that's a company. It's an amazing example of a company that not only has gotten driven out fear at so many levels, but they're even able to overcome the natural suspicion and anxiety and leriness of their new. The employees that they acquire through or hire through acquisition. And that really says something because you know how hard it is to change mental models and mindsets. Yeah.

So the tough question I have for you is this. Someone's watching this video right now and they're like, yeah, that sounds great. Unfortunately, my boss is a prick, you know, and leadership doesn't care. I mean, what.

What is.

You know, if they're not. If someone's listening to this, I mean, is there the tough reality that sometimes you may need to cut bait if it's just not the right fit and, you know, you're speaking to that person now who maybe can't influence, you know, two levels above them?

Boy, that's a tough one. I think that if you're. If you're in an environment that's not for you, if they don't fire you first, you really owe it to yourself to walk out. Because no job. Easy for me to say, I recognize, but no job is worth your health, happiness, Health and happiness. I do Wonder, though, if even companies where bosses are jerks and they're driven strictly by the bottom line. I really believe that if you can lead and influence people, if you can drive out fear the team around you, whether you have direct reports or colleagues, they're going to start doing better work and people are going to notice that, and they're going to notice it. And your boss, who may be a jerk, is going to say, hey, what's going on over there? And that gives you an avenue to say, well, let me tell you what I'm doing now. That's not an overnight fix. It may take too long or longer than you care to wait. So maybe you do have to leave. But to me, that's. I think that's how I would approach it. I would shield my people from the jerk of a boss.

Okay, so let me flip it around now. Let's say that there's a leader watching this right now who recognizes that he or she perhaps hasn't been the model leader. Maybe they have managed with some fear in their tendencies.

What can they do?

What's some practical things that they can start doing today?

You know, I think again, I'm heavily influenced by Mike Rother on this count with his Toyota Kata. Now he's doing it with problem solving. But I think the notion of scripting, literally writing down on a card the words that you're going to say, and it says, okay, every day, go to where the work is being done. Go visit the front lines, look for something to praise, and then say these words. First line is, hey, I noticed you did X. Second line is, thank you, that was great. Here's why it makes us better. Third line is, can you please do more of that? Literally script it. Obviously that's very wooden. Yeah. But the idea is I'm now training myself. I'm the manager who doesn't do this often enough or doesn't know how to do it. I'm now training myself and over time, over a week, a month, two months, six months, I'm going to internalize it and it will become a habit, it'll become natural. It's just the way I operate. But I think we try to be perfect and we try to wing it all the time. Instead of literally, literally scripting it.

Yeah.

And again, to steal from it, fake.

It until you can make it right a little bit.

Exactly, exactly. And let people know, listen, I want to be a better leader. So this is what I'm going to be doing so they understand why you're reading off of a card and I think. But if your intentions are pure, people are going to say, they say, geez, this guy, really. What a loser. He can't do this naturally, but they're going to respect the intentions. Yeah, he's trying. Yeah. I mean, if you see anyone practicing a skill hard enough, you may say, boy, that guy sucks at tennis. But look how hard he's trying. Boy, this person's a terrible teacher. This person is a horrible skier. But look, every single day he's practicing and reading the book and doing what he's supposed to do, and gradually you respect that and admire it. And I think that's what would happen if a leader who's not comfortable with that would. It's scary, but would put himself or herself out there like that to be vulnerable and to be. To look silly and yet practice in order to make for a better environment.

Awesome, Dan.

Thank you, Ron. The pleasure, as always, is mine. All right, take care. Thank you.

Thanks for listening to the Gemba Academy podcast. Now it's time to take a free, no strings attached, fully functional test drive of Gemba Academy's School of Lean and Six Sigma over@Gembaacademy.com Gain immediate access to more than 500 Lean and Six Sigma training videos free of charge at GembaCademy.com.

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