GA 102 | Sustaining Your Lean Journey with William Harvey

You're listening to episode 102 with William Harvey. Welcome to the Gemba Academy Podcast, the show that's focused on helping individuals and companies achieve breakthrough results using the same continuous improvement principles leveraged by companies such as Toyota Del Monte and the U.S. department of Defense. And now, here's your host, Ron Pereira. Hey there. This is Ron Perera with Gemba Academy, and I'd like to welcome you to another edition of the Gemba Academy Podcast. As always, thank you so much for taking time out of your day in your week to listen to the show and for watching our Lean In Six Sigma training videos over at Gembaacademy.com we definitely appreciate each and every one of you. Now, I do want to start with a quick Gemba Academy update. If you haven't been over to gemba academy.com recently, I would really encourage you to go check it out. We recently launched a totally refreshed version of our website and one of the there's many, many changes to the website, but one of my favorite enhancements to the website is a new search feature. Towards the top of the page there's a little magnifying glass and if you click on that, you can now search through all of our content. When I say content, I mean all 1000 plus blog articles, all 100 plus podcasts, close to a thousand videos. It's all linked together now, so if you're looking for, I don't know, leader standard work or anything related to 5s, you can just type those keywords into the search field and all of our content that's associated with those terms is going to appear. And even if you aren't a Gemba Academy subscriber, a paid subscriber, there's still a tremendous amount of free content. All of the first videos from each of our courses are available wide open to anyone. And then obviously all of our blog archives and our podcasts are also free to listen and and read. So go over to gemba academy.com and let us know if you find any areas or opportunities for improvement. Please do let us know because we're still making improvements and fixing some tweaks here and there. Next, I want to give a quick update on the Mat May episode, which was episode 100. It's safe to say that this episode, out of the Gate has been the most popular episode that we've ever released with respect to the number of downloads and the number of emails and feedback that we've gotten from folks. So if you've not listened to that episode, go ahead and listen to this episode and then go to episode 100. You can find it in our itunes feed or just Simply go to GembaPodcast.com and look for episode 100. It's pretty special. Matt talks about how he died two different times and the lessons, in particular the lean thinking lessons that he's taken from that incredible experience. Now, today, I'm excited to welcome William Harvey to the show. Now, William, as you'll Hear, has over 10 years experience mainly in the printing and consumer packaging industry. And he's also a former U.S. marine. And so throughout the show, really, William and I kind of talk about strategy and we talk about how to sustain the journey and we spend a lot of time talking about culture. I really enjoyed visiting with William and I think you're going to like this show as well. Now, show notes for this particular episode can also be found over@gembapodcast.com just look for episode 102. Again, that's gembapodcast.com and look for episode 102. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. All right, William, well, thank you so much for taking time to visit with us. Where are you calling in from?

Calling from Cincinnati, Ohio. And it's a pleasure to be on today.

All right, so are you a Buckeye fan?

I am not a Buckeye fan. I'm a sinner fan.

Oh, man. Sooner. Okay, well, I'm from Ohio, living close to Oklahoma now. So we're kind of flip flopped, you know. I guess so. All right, well, very good. Well, William, as you know, we like to start all of our shows with our guests kind of sharing a quote or two that possibly inspires them. So do you have one?

I do, absolutely. This one comes from Douglas MacArthur and the quote reads, a true leader has the confidence to stand alone, the courage to make tough decisions, and the compassion to listen to the needs of others. He does not set out to be a leader, but becomes one by the equality of his actions and the integrity of his intent.

So what's that mean to you?

To me, it really emphasizes everything about being a leader and taking care of people as a servant leader. It's one of those things where I say, you know what? This really sums it up. It's very unpopular when leaders in culture and politics have to stand up and stand alone. But definitely that courage that shines through and I think equally important to that is listening to people that are in the minority and understanding what it means to represent everyone. And in that, that service to others is really where you Become the leader rather than the point where people say, hey, I want to be a leader and go out with that approach where I don't think it's as effective as the person who really serves his or her team.

Yeah, got it. All right. Well, William, tell us a little bit about your background and maybe how you first came to learn about continuous improvement.

Absolutely. So, about 10 years ago, I joined a packaging organization that was heavily invested in Lean and Six Sigma at the time. I started out with similar to a lot of people where we start with Lean Kaizen events that we hear so often on the Gemba Academy podcast, and then had the opportunity to go to the Six Sigma Black Belt program they had at their corporate level to go around the nation and serve other packaging entities within our organization. Had an awesome time learning a lot of really, really cool stuff, both from the Lean and Six Sigma side and think of it as a tremendous experience and similar to some of the lifelong practitioners. I think there's really a lot of stuff that really applies to the home. And not that it's so crazy, but certainly things that make things easier when you're managing the household, teaching your children chores, and doing a lot of cool stuff like that. So my wife's even learned quite a bit from me just from that aspect.

And I'm sure you learned from her too, right?

Every day that gets towards the end here on the thing I'm trying to improve, so she definitely helps me There.

There you. So, and I understand you former US Marine, correct?

I served 2001, 2005 active duty and joined shortly before 9 11. So I had an eventful three and a half years in, but did not have to go to combat. So fortunate in many respects, but, you know, still had a lot of service members that went and protected our freedoms in the United States. So sad to see those guys go and remember those guys every Memorial Day.

Yeah, for sure. Now, did you do anything with continuous improvement when you were in the Marines or.

No, not anything formal. I think, you know, from my experience, it was really stuff that was already ingrained into me is how I do things more efficiently. Lean really gave me the method to teach others. Yeah, it was difficult to describe and, you know, succinct statements on why do you organize this way or why do you cut out all the unnecessary stuff? And at the time, obviously, I couldn't explain it. I just said, it just makes sense to me.

Yeah.

And obviously having that method with the basic Lean tools and even getting to some advanced stuff, just saying, hey, it just makes so Much sense, your life's easier. Doesn't this make sense to do every day? And how do we incorporate this throughout the organization?

Yeah, got it. All right. Well, William, as you know, we're going to kind of spend some time today talking about leadership and sustainment of the lean journey and so forth. So the first question I have is, you know, obviously many organizations fail to sustain their lean journey. I don't know how else to say that. So I'm curious to get your perspective on what do you feel separates the successful ones from the unsuccessful.

Absolutely. And I go back to Creating a Lean Culture by David Mann for this answer. I think the most important piece of it when we talk about leadership support, but I think there's a little bit more to it. And he summarizes pretty well. And it's really about a lean management system that's focused on process improvement with everyone in the organization. Too often I see that we have the aspect of tools prevalent in the teaching or that batching queue manufacturing Kaizen events from month to month. But really, at the end of the day, I think it's at least one person having that insatiable appetite for learning and then that leader being in a position where they can hold people accountable through daily leadership discipline. To me, that's where I see the culture being built and being able to sustain that lean deployment.

When you speak about culture, I always think of Peter Drucker and his quote, culture eats strategy for breakfast. I'm curious to get your perspective on that quote and maybe talk a little bit more about culture change.

Yeah, absolutely. I think I do agree with the statement culture strategy for breakfast. And I think the best example I can provide from a truly customer service organization is Southwest Airlines. And by that I mean this. So whenever anyone talks about Southwest Airlines, the most common thing I hear about is their exponentially better customer service. From the way you're greeted at the counter all the way through the process of off boarding from the plane when the pilot's extending his goodbye. I say that because if I ask somebody what the most recent direct lane Southwest Airlines came up with, I'd get a lot of blank stares. So, hey, what about the pricing strategy that you just revealed? Those things are very important to keeping the culture. This could be an added piece for me, but this is really an important piece where we say the strategy has to support the culture and vice versa. So for that strategy to sustain long term, it's certainly going to involve the team leaders and team members coming together and developing that culture that enables them to sustain the big piece for me, I listen to a lot of the podcasts and I hear a lot about culture, but I don't think I've heard a succinct definition. The one I provide is from Edgar Schein, one of the most prevalent teachers of organizational culture and organizational behavior. He summarizes it really well in that he defines culture is the environment that the leadership create that foster shared learning, and that shared learning is what is taught to the future members joining the organization. And I think this is the really important piece to get right right away, because when we talk about good culture, bad culture forms just the same way. And when we talk about changing culture, there's three things I'd recommend to anyone trying to implement Lean. And the first one is change what leaders pay attention to and what you measure. So if we're constantly measuring the output rather than the process, we're not going to be as effective at implementing Lean. And when we look at how we reward and allocate our resources, it's very important that we focus heavily on that. And then I think probably the biggest piece of it, you know, who do we recruit to our organization, and who are we selecting and promoting within our organization? And unfortunately, who are we excommunicating when they don't live up to those standards? I think that combination of how do you change culture? Really is emphasizing those three points.

So I'm curious. Let's dig into that. Who do you recruit? What are your thoughts on the best way to go about recruiting new talent?

Absolutely. I think the best way to recruit talent is to work closely with the talent manager, if you will, in all honesty, because one of the key things I've learned in my hiring management practices is get somebody. That surprises me. I don't go to the standard, you know, I want somebody with 25 years of lean experience. I want somebody who is very hungry to learn. And to me, that's one of the most important things I'm not concerned with. If you know the technical details of Lean or Six Sigma, it's, do you have that desire to learn every day? And I think that's really the core of Lean is, are you learning every day to make something better and helping your team succeed in that way?

Yeah, yeah. It's more behavioral than what you know.

Right? Absolutely. And I think the people that focus on the. What do you know, miss out on a lot of great opportunities working with some really talented people. And in that case, I chaired just, you know, working at a really large packaging company, I had the opportunity to work with quite a few interns. And, I mean, they blew me away with their insatiable appetite to learn. And if I were looking at it from the traditional approach, well, I want somebody with 10 years. I could have missed some really great interns coming out of college, and that would have been something I would have just overlooked previously without that, you know, awareness.

Yeah. And I know a lot of folks, and I've worked with folks that, you know, PhDs and extremely educated. I'm talking like, you know, Harvard, MIT, these types of people. And, you know, they're very difficult to work with and very ineffective at what they do, even though they're the smartest people that I probably have ever known. But no one liked them, you know, so, like, they weren't gonna get anything done. Right, so.

Absolutely.

I learned that from Richard Sheridan when at Menlo Innovations. They spend a lot of time in their interviewing process. He says we study their kindergarten skills and how do they work with others? Because, again, it doesn't matter how smart you are. Of course, you need to have a baseline knowledge if you want someone to do a specific skill or task. But if they're not going to be able to work well with others, they're probably not going to fit in many organizations.

Absolutely. I agree completely with you there.

Yeah. Obviously you've got a lot of experience in packaging and manufacturing. If you were to walk into just some random manufacturing organization or packaging organization and just spend, I don't know, two, three hours, what would you be looking for in order to understand how well they're getting on with lean?

Okay. So, you know, I had the opportunity to do that traveling around to quite a few different facilities. And there are really three things I look at when I go through a facility. The first one is total inventory. And I can tell you one of the most shocking things I had during an interview. I was in their finished goods area, and they identified $14.5 million worth of inventory, which at the time was shocking because I wasn't allowed to have more than four and a half million dollars total inventory in the other plant, similar size. So that certainly shared to me to say, okay, well, they think they're lean, but they're not as lean as they think they are.

Yeah.

Then another piece I look for is really the. I engage with the people and just try to understand what they're struggling with. So are individual team members looking for stuff? Are they searching for assistance with their group leaders or team leaders? Obviously. How active are the supervisors involved in there then? The last one I definitely say is Definitely one of mine. It's really about walking up to a machine or an area and trying to understand what's going on. I've seen andons I've seen some very inexpensive things. But my challenge to my team has always been if I can't understand what's going away from 10ft away, we need to make it simpler. And with that, particularly in manufacturing, there's a lot of times where the operator is working with the maintenance team or doing a setup, and that interruption actually delays that individual from getting the machine up and running more quickly. So I've made it a contest within my group to say, okay, what's a method? We don't know, but does exactly what we're after. So rather than taking a standardized and on approach, it's really involved around with the equipment, saying, well, what makes sense at your machine center and how do we communicate that to the team members, you know, when they're walking over to the machinery?

Yes, yes. Love it. So we spend a lot of time talking about people and culture and whatnot, but obviously we do need tools, right, to make make things better. So has there been a tool that's been, you know, particularly helpful for you?

Yes, I like a lot of tools, but my favorite tool is a tool called leader standard work. If people are not familiar with that, that comes out of Creating a Lean Culture by David Mann. I recommend that people go to that because it really illustrates the engine of the lean management system, if you will. It's one of these programs that I've developed with my leader at the same point, usually a VP gm. I'll just say what's really important to you and what's important to our organization. What should we focus on every day? And then we take that and we drive that down and cascade what's important to each of the individual levels. And really what I saw was the focus turn to process versus all of the reactive firefighting that we normally do in manufacturing. And one individual in particular, he struggled with the daily firefighting and really never had a method. It was impressive just to watch his development over the course of two months of implementing this, where his time frame for work used to be 10, 12 hours a day, every day. And he was getting to the point where he was getting out of work at 8 or 9 hours on quite a few days a week. And when we talk, he talked about all of the value that he's adding versus just trying to react to a customer complaint or something that went wrong. And I think that simultaneous focus on the process and the Results is how we ended up succeeding in a lot of the metrics that we had internally.

Love it. I was kind of mining around on your LinkedIn account and I was reading some of the articles that you've written and you've done a great job there, so well done. One of the articles that really caught my eye was titled My Customer Service Failure Led to a New Customer Centric Philosophy. We'll link to that article in the show Notes, but go ahead and give us the Cliff Notes version of that story.

Absolutely. I was working at a third party logistics company for a major retailer. The season around the holidays were pretty rough and I was absolutely dedicated to the customer. And we had an order that came down to our area and it was right around shift change. And as production supervisor, I said, you know, I've been working on this project to make sure we get our products to the customer in the way that they order them without any damage. So I decided to be really wise one day to take the packing slip that was part of that order home with me. And I decided that would be a good idea to hide this package that I wanted to make sure my team packed the next day so we could ship it out without damage. We had identified through continuous improvement processes that we had some issues with this specific group performing the work. So I said, hey, our group is performing the highest in our gift wrap areas, so I want to make sure this gets out properly. The next morning I come back and I realize the package is gone. Within hours we're trying to find this package, realizing it's not there. Unfortunately, my decision to hold that product the way I did allowed it to go back in stock and be sent to other customers. So the gentleman I was working with was from the client and he had done the most amazing thing I'd ever seen. And he sat with me, he sat with my manager. And we were trying to find something within the local area that we could go pick up from the retail store and ship it out.

Wait. Well, let me, let me stop you for a sec. The gentleman was the customer. He was like, sorry.

He was representing the client, not the direct customer. I apologize.

Okay, okay.

So he was a client representing the customer service proposition that they offered as an organization. And we couldn't find anything locally, so we expanded our search. We expanded our search. And he just said, what's in Milwaukee? I'm sitting here in Cincinnati going, I don't know what's in Milwaukee, but we can't take a look. And I asked him the question. I said, what's so important about Milwaukee. He says, well, I'm going to drive up there and get it and take it to her. To understand the extent of that. We were sending out 400,000 items a week on a normal day or a normal week, and up to 400,000 a day during our busy season. So seeing that much dedication for one customer just gave me, you know, the lights went off and I said, this is absolutely it. It's all about the customer. It's only about the customer. We really need to take care of them and everything we do. And, you know, obviously the lesson learned there was make sure you communicate at the end of the shift if you're going to change the process so this doesn't happen to somebody in the future. But certainly one of the most valuable experiences I've ever had as a. As a learner.

So did they find something in Milwaukee?

They did not find it in Milwaukee. We ended up shipping it after Christmas, which made me feel that much worse.

Yeah.

But we ended up fulfilling the order, just not in the timeframe that we had committed to.

Yeah. How did you handle it with the customer? Do you remember?

We called them directly. We had, obviously, with the retail partner, we were able to call them directly and share with them that we were not going to be able to make that delivery. And obviously explained all of the things we tried to do to achieve that for them, but ultimately were unsuccessful on time. But we obviously got that product to them without any damage a couple weeks later.

Yeah. The favorite part of the story for me, though, is how you owned it. And I don't think people do that enough. They'll make excuses or blame or whatever, but sounds like you own the own the mistake, and you guys made the best of what you could.

Absolutely. And, you know, to Jim, the gentleman who taught me that lesson, it's one that I share often when I go to interviews and talk to people, because it's one of those things I think, that really gives insight to me is saying, you know, hey, here's what I messed up, and here's what we need to do to fix it.

Yeah.

And then it really helps, I think, build that, you know, rapport with customers when you say, hey, this is what we're going to do for you.

Yeah.

And obviously having the integrity to live up to that.

Exactly. Exactly. All right, very good, William. Well, let's go ahead and transition into the reflection section. And the first question I have is that, you know, we spend a lot of time in lean talking about the two pillars, continuous improvement and respect for People, continuous improvement is a little easier to kind of put our hands on and to define. But what does respect for people mean to you?

So respect for people. You know, when I hear people talk about lean community, we commonly focus on the employees and how we treat them when we're deploying lean. To me though, it's much greater than that, and it's a sum of all of the stakeholders. So when we talk about customers, suppliers, any service providers that come in and do some work for us, even the potential employees we're recruiting, and some opportunities with academia and the community, we've got to really take all that into account when we're deploying programs and managing lean at that level. But I think very specifically to respect for people, it includes listening to and empathizing with people and really seeking a win win solution. And then I think the most important piece that I've seen in my journey through the United States has been that we appreciate individual difference while actively opposing bigotry and not to make it so cultural there, but there's been a lot of challenges where you say, this won't work or that won't work because of where we're at. And I start to say, well, you know, that's a really bad generalization. Let's try it.

Yeah.

And if it doesn't work, let's try something again until we get there.

Love it. What's the best advice you've ever received?

I hope I'm doing a much better job today at speaking slower. But the best advice I received came from a coach. He said, william, when people speak, repeat everything they say in your mind. You'll slow down and people will feel like they've been heard. And that was the first moment that everything clicked. And I said, you know what? I listen very poorly. I hear really well, so what do I need to do to change my behavior to listen better? And that was definitely one of those defining moments where the light bulb clicked with that comment.

Wow, that's fantastic. I've never heard it put that way, but it's so true. Especially for us men. Not to be generalized, but I know I also struggle in that area. So great advice. Do you have a personal productivity habit that others might benefit from?

Yes. I hope to crush something I hear so often in the world today. Focus on one value added thing at a time and never multitask. I've seen so much literature of people saying, hey, I'm a great multitasker. And every research study I've seen shows multitasking is not effective and actually reduces Productivity. So if there's one thing I share with people, I'm like, you're trying to do eight things at once. I said, just pick one and just complete it and go to number two and prioritize that way. That's certainly been one thing that's helped me throughout my career is that ability to focus on the most important thing at any given time.

Yeah, I love that. My colleague, Steve Kane, you know, you may have heard him on the podcast, he's our director of customer success, and he's constantly experimenting with different kind of productivity hacks, if you will. And he's gone from, my three most important tasks of the day are this. And now he's down to say, I have one. I have one important task that I must get done. And then, you know, if you get that done, you can move on to other things. But I think it's very, very wise to really focus in on one specific thing.

You nailed it. And I think one of the challenges, at least in the lean deployments I've been a part of, it's so often that we go through eight directions rather than saying, okay, well, what do we absolutely need to do and what do we want to do over the course of the next three years? I think that ability to focus on one enables the managers to grasp what we're trying to achieve and then start working with the team. But with 27 tools we're deploying on week one, like, well, these are great, but let's. Let's break it over, you know, at least three, a quarter or something, so we can break this into more meaningful pieces.

Yeah, and there's a lot of neuroscience behind it as well, because when you have that one thing that you want to accomplish and you do accomplish it, then you're gonna get that dopamine rush through your body and you're gonna feel great, and you're gonna be more encouraged to try something else. Whereas if you have 10 things on your list, and you may have gotten eight done, which is great, but you didn't get all 10, so you're gonna kind of feel like you failed when in fact, you probably didn't.

Exactly. Yeah. That's why I like to focus on one value added thing rather than focus on the most important three, I'm going to just one.

Yep, yep. So you've obviously been at this for quite some time. Is there anything that surprised you over this last year or so of practicing and implementing lean.

Yes, and it's one of the most incredible things and something I'm teaching myself Each day, it's how much more effective questioning is compared to teaching. So I related a lot to the Toyota Kata practice with going over that PDCA cycle. And my challenge as a learner and a coach, when I was going through there actually as a coach, was to say, how do I only ask questions? I get into a mode where I want to teach because I feel like it can help somebody along the journey, but have found that stopping that and going back to. Let me just ask you really, really good questions and insightful questions, understand how you think enables the learner to progress at a much faster rate than me. Simply saying the answer is X, let's try X and go forward. And then I would say the really ironic thing is I've learned a lot from that because I'm not in the teaching mode. I'm in the listening and questioning mode. And it's been extremely helpful.

Let's say you're having a bad day, William, and you need to kind of recharge and refocus. Do you have a routine or ritual that you follow to do that?

Yes, I have three things I do, and they all depend upon what the mood is. The first one, the most important to me, is music. The second one is meditation. And the third is a walk solo without any noise. Just really trying to take in the environment and get my mind off of whatever the current challenge is to come back to that process renewed 10, 30 minutes or an hour later, depending upon what I'm trying to do.

Do you have a knowledge or skill area that you feel you need to improve in order to become better at practicing lean?

Yes. The most important place I think I need to focus in on is not solving my team's problems. And recently I read a book called Turn the Ship around by David Marquette. Yes, it was the most amazing book.

Isn't that something, that book?

Golly, yes, absolutely. So as I heard it through a podcast, I said, you know, I'm going to pick this up. Obviously, being a military guy, I have a lot of understanding of what he is most likely going to talk about and what he taught me in that and what I really said, you know, as a renewed focus, don't solve my team's problems because they don't learn that way. And as he gives examples of how he briefs people versus or certifies people versus briefing people, it was really just one of those things. I said, wow, look at all the errors I've made. Look how more successful just a three minute conversation can be if we talk about what everybody's trying to achieve versus what we think they know. And you take those assumptions out of it. And that's one of those areas where I say, you know what, I really need to do this. Because some feedback I'd received early was, William, you know, the tools, you know where we're headed, but other people don't. So make sure you keep that in mind as you're out working with the teams. And I thought I said, well, that's really impactful. And this was one of those key learning moments where you say, don't solve the team's problems.

Yeah, exactly. So I have a new one here for you that you don't know. I'm going to ask you, but I know that you're a big Paul Akers fan and he's. He's one of my best Lean friends in the whole world and a fantastic guy. So I'm curious to get your take on maybe your favorite Paul Akers idea or saying or snippet or something. What do you think about that?

It's not a saying. It's actually what he learned when he was in Japan and it was around his involvement in cleaning a restroom at a manufacturer in Japan. He came back and he brought it to his facility out in Washington. And he said, every day we keep our area clean. And I thought that was a very impactful moment when I hear the CEO, president of a company saying, I'm taking the time out of my day to go keep the restrooms clean. When people come here to learn about lean, they're going to start there because so often we focus on everything else. But I go, wow, you get really everything you need about people. And lean is something as simple as making your bathroom 5s ready. Visually managed and learning. That was, I think, the most impactful piece and something I certainly say, you know, how do we take this to the next level in companies where we say, okay, there's 500 people, but it's that respect for people again, which is just clean up after yourself and leave it better than when you found it. And I think that was really cool. And a second one I thought was just the most brilliant thing ever. He took a binder clip and he put it on his headphones to stop the cords from tangling. I thought, this is so simple here I have binder clips all around. I always have tangled up cords. And here this guy goes, you know, I took a 3 cent binder clip and solved this most amazing problem.

Yeah, fix what bugs you, right?

Exactly. So he nailed it there.

Yeah. Paul's a fantastic. Have you been there yet to visit Paul?

I have not been there to visit Paul. I do hope to go there.

Yeah, you need to go. It's fantastic. And he's one of my favorite people, so. He's awesome.

So.

And the dude is ripped now, man, too. I don't know if you've seen a picture of him lately, but I saw.

The video where he recently posted that he was swimming in the swimming pool.

Yeah.

I've leaned on my exercise routine, so that's incredible.

Yeah.

Because he's been able to focus on the most important things, which is his health.

Exactly. Very good. All right, well, William, what's the best way for people to get in touch with you?

Best way is to go to LinkedIn and search under William Harvey, so you'll find a bunch of those people. But if you look in the end of the URL and just put William Harvey, 83, you'll find me at that LinkedIn website.

83, like 83.

Yes, sir.

And it's Harvey. Harvey, Correct?

Correct.

All right, William Harvey. All right, well, William, thanks so much. I don't know if you're a conference guy, but we'll be at AME in Dallas here coming up. We're going to have some more details on that for everybody else that's going to go, we got a discount, so make sure that you wait to hear that from Gemba Academy's podcast, but maybe we can meet up one day in person. I was out in Cincinnati a little while ago, but if I ever get back out, I'll give you a call.

Absolutely, Ron. I look forward to it.

All right, take care.

Thank you.

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