GA 105 | How to Improve Your Business with Change Management with Paul Brand

You're listening to episode 105 with Paul Brand. Welcome to the Gemba Academy Podcast, the show that's focused on helping individuals and companies achieve breakthrough results using the same continuous improvement principles leveraged by companies such as Toyota Del Monte and the U.S. department of Defense. And now, here's your host, Ron Pereira. Hey there. This is Ron Pereira with Gemba Academy. And Okta welcome you to another edition of the Gemba Academy podcast. As always, thank you so much for taking time out of your day in your week to listen to the show and for watching our Lean and Six Sigma training videos over at Gembaacademy.com we definitely appreciate each and every one of you. Now today, I'm excited to welcome Paul Brand to the show. Now, Paul is a change management expert from the Netherlands, and he's recently released a book called Change youe Mind, Change youe Business. And obviously, as the title kind of states, it's a. It's largely focused on change management. And that's kind of Paul's subject matter expertise is change management as a consultant. For over, I believe, 18 years he's been working in this field. And during the interview, Paul gets into kind of what drove him to write the book. And actually it was a very serious health issue that. That actually caused him to. He said that he didn't want the music to die within him. And so I thought that was a pretty powerful moment there in the show. And then so he goes on to explain a little about the book and kind of the link between change management and what we Lean thinkers are primarily focused on. And they're very aligned, as you might imagine. I think there's a lot of value for Lean thinkers in this episode because obviously Lean is all about people and all about helping people improve their businesses and improve their lives. So I really enjoy talking to Paul. Now. Show notes for this particular episode can be found over@gembapodcast.com just look for episode 105. Again, it's gembapodcast.com and look for episode 105. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. All right, Paul, well, thanks so much for taking time to visit with us. Where are you calling in from today?

It's from the Netherlands, my home country.

All right, very good. Well, thank you. I know it's later in the evening there for you, so appreciate you carving out some time for us.

Share, share.

All right.

I enjoy doing the show.

Good, good. All right, Paul, well, let's start with maybe your background and tell us about how you Kind of got it in your current line of work.

Almost by chance, I would say. I started out as a project manager with Shell and started out with quite some improvement projects. Liked it so much that I decided to make a business out of it. And ever since I've been working with improvement projects or change management projects or whatever you want to call them. Been doing that as an independ and consultant for 18 years. Starting out quite operational with an operational focus, I would say. But over the last couple of years, more an advising or consultancy business. So helping and assisting leadership within big chip, blue chip companies to actually build a change management capability within those organizations. So I kind of grew into it like a lot process improvement. Yeah, just you have a real passion for improvement. That's what it is in development.

And you've written a book. Tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Never thought I would do that, to be honest.

Yeah.

But what I found throughout the years is that despite a lot of good energy, good people and good initiatives, quite some of those change management projects did not bring the results that were anticipated and really got me thinking. I kind of thought, okay, there are two solutions or two answers to that actually. It's either all these people are not really good or there must be something else. And I wasn't really ready to accept, to say, okay, these people are not all really good. They would have to include myself as well. So there had to be something else. And so I started searching and I found some answers in the, in the personal development arena and I applied those answers to the business development arena and change management arena. I think I really found the missing piece of the puzzle, to be honest, to, to make change management a success, actually. And so that has been on the shelf for quite, quite some years. And then last year I got quite ill. I got diagnosed with cancer and I had to deal with that. And today happy and healthy, fortunately. Great. But it did make me think, okay, well, I don't want to die with my music within me. I have to bring this book out. So that's what I did in the fall of last year and I brought it out here as well, promoting it because I think it's got a lot of value for leaders within, within big organizations.

So change your mind, change your business.

All right.

That's the title of it. Yeah.

Change your mind, change your business. Available through Amazon or through my website. Yeah. Www.changemindbusiness.com changemindbusiness.com okay, exactly. Yes.

And we'll link to everything in the show notes for this Episode for sure.

Okay.

All right, well, very good, Paul. Well, as you know, we like to start all of our shows with our guests sharing a quotation. So do you have one?

Yes, yes, I sure do. The one I really like is think big, act small.

What does that mean to you?

What it really means to me is that you need to start from a big vision, but to make that happen, you need to make it happen from a small start. So you need to start and grow from quality. Actually, I rather have a small quality starting point and start building on that, then just bring the Big Bang implementation and only finish half of it or half of it successfully, and then pretty much drop the vision as a result of it and the enthusiasm and the motivation. So think big, act small, and grow from there.

Yeah, very good. All right, well, so we're going to talk a lot about change management, which is obviously your kind of expertise. So let's just start with maybe like a definition. What is your definition of change management and why should anyone really care about the topic?

Yeah, well, there are many definitions possible, of course, and it can get quite technical quickly. For me, it really deals with the development of organizations. And as organizations are made up of people, it's much more about the development of people. When they can successfully develop, then the organization will also automatically successfully develop. So to me, that's a lot to do with the development of people and with that, it's as real as dirt and stone. It's not just a theoretical thing. It applies to everybody within the organization. And very important to understand is that there are underlying processes that really can be worked deliberately. And through that you can influence the growth of people and the organization as a result.

The second part, why should we care? I mean, obviously if organizations aren't able to, to adapt and grow, I guess they can obviously go out of business. Right, but are there other reasons?

Yeah, the first one is that it does apply to everybody. So it's not just. Okay, well, change management is something for the leadership to, to work on and make happen. It is about the growth of each and everyone. And when you do that successfully, you can have fun with it and you can positively shape your future within the context of an organization. So it not just important for me or for the leadership, but it's for each and everyone because you can actively shape your future and shape the future of your organization. And it's a lot of fun, actually. And yes, by successfully doing that, you successfully, you grow successful businesses. And today quite some of those change management initiatives, they don't live up to their potential. And it's a shame especially because it doesn't have to be that way. There's just simply one missing piece of the puzz puzzle which, which is influencing this. And when people do understand it, they can start deliberately, deliberately work the development process.

Now you mentioned your, your health situation last year. Is that what really drove you to write the book?

Yes, eventually it did. I wrote it, I wrote it a year before that, to be honest. But I always found some excuses not to actually publish it yet, whether it was busy with work projects or other excuses. So that really kick started it. But the fact that I did write it is that I did find that there is just one missing piece of the puzzle I see which I label as co creation, which is quite an answer to some of the most important change management issues. Resistance particularly. And yeah, then being diagnosed with cancer, it did kickstart me to okay, this is the moment. Now I have to publish it because it is of value. That's what I see in my day to day business and it's important to share it.

So I'm curious the things that you teach people and write about in the book and so forth. I mean not to get too personal and I don't want to push the limits here, but obviously going through battling cancer is a massive life change. So I'm curious, like are the things that you teach people and believe, were they able to help you through that very, you know, troubling time?

Yes, definitely, definitely talk about that. And of course that's not change management on an organizational level, it's very much on a personal level. But it had a lot to do with me within the process of, of development, so to speak, the development of apparently in an illness within me, but also the development of how do I want to treat this very much being confronted with what decisions am I going to make within this situation? And that's very key because it can feel, it can be experienced as okay, it's just happening to me. So this doctor is saying I need to do ABC and I just sit back and just take the chemo or take whatever it is that you, that you need to be treated with and feel kind of a victim of the situation where I felt I needed to get into a position where I took charge of the situation. And I'm not a doctor of course, so I cannot apply chemo to myself. But I did take charge of, okay, it's my health, it's my body. What is it that I feel within the opportunities available and the alternatives available that is going to is going to treat me best actually. And not just for this illness, but also for my. For my life afterwards. To say like that because I had to deal with that as well because chemo is great, but it also kills a lot, a lot of the good stuff within your body. Yeah. So it was definitely something that it put me in a position to take charge. It's as simple as that. And when I bring that to an organizational context or perspective, it's a lot about that of course as well, which, which is familiar to many people. But taking, not taking no for an answer and really driving for what you want, although it might seem that there are not alternatives or alternatives that might prove to be difficult to pursue, was really something that I found that had to be done. And it's very much applicable for organizations as well, of course.

So obviously our audience is primarily made up of lean thinkers. So I'm curious, what's the link between kind of more traditional change management and lean in your opinion?

The way I look at it, and first and foremost I'm not a lean expert, so I have to be clear about that. But what I see is that they both very much deal with the development of the organization and say the deliberate development of the organization. So not leaving things to chance. What I see and what I like in both things within lean, but also within my perspective on change management is the continuous part within it to say it like that. So change management not being a ones off activity. So we have this change project to go from A to B. I mean that's one way to look at it. And sometimes you're in, as an organization, you're in that position to do that, to undergo a significant change program to get into a better position. But I'm much more like to look at it as a continuous activity where organizations build the capabilities to be able to change actually successfully and not with big disruptive changes, but as a gradual growth actually on an ongoing basis. Because I see it's a lot easier, it's a lot less disruptive for these organizations and for the people working there. When you actually build a skill and you can get. Can get good at it and you can have fun with it and you can be a lot more successful with it. So yeah, that's where I see the comparisons and the parallels.

So what are the biggest change management problems that you kind of see out there with corporate leaders? What are they talking about?

One thing always comes to the service and almost directly and it's resistance. So many people within leadership positions that find themselves to Be pushing people, pulling people, getting them along on the ride. They might think personally that's a great idea. And they find a lot of resistance within the organization. Nonetheless, no matter how important this for the organization, no matter how much the need and the urgency is, it seems like that people are resisting. And it's a big burden for these leaders because it's difficult to get somebody along when this person is resisting. And what I see is that typically the change management arena is focusing on how can we actually deal with that resistance, how can we get people along. And we'll get to that later. I'm quite sure what I deal with within my book is that you don't want to deal with resistance. There are ways to prevent it actually. And there's a good reason why this resistance actually comes up. And when you understand that you can prevent it and still have resistance, then does pop up, it's actually a good thing. So that's one major issue that these leaders talk about is resistance. And the other one is that it proves to be difficult for them to integrate their day to day operation and optimizing it at the same time. The changes, they can be disruptive of nature. They're large. Quite often they're due to, I would say negative economical circumstances within the organization. So resources are scarce, people are hardly available for the change program. They're pulled out of their day to day business and they have to run this change program they have to be, have to participate in. And for leaders it's difficult to do both at the same time to run the business, to be successful with it. And apparently they are not successful because usually that's the base for actually for the need for, to change. And then they need to optimize it in parallel as well. And it puts a lot of pressure on them and their organization. So it's, it's difficult.

Now I'm sure you cover in great detail in book. I haven't read the book. I do plan to read it, Paul, full confession there. But I'm curious if you share with us some, maybe some insight from the book and your personal thinking behind how to go about resolving these two problems. Resistance and then, you know, managing to change and running the business. What are some things that leaders can do?

What I refer to a lot and what is pretty much the core of the book is what I label as co creation.

Co creation. Say that again. Co creation.

Co creation. So create together. And it's based on say the creation process that we all go through on a personal level. I think it's Easiest to explain it with just a very simple example. Let's say that I want a cup of coffee without me being aware of it, or I might be aware of it. I actually go through a specific process to go from the thought of wanting a cup of coffee to actually having it within my hand. And there are a couple steps within the process. But within the context of organizational development, there are two that are most relevant. And the first step is the thought is the fact that you have an idea. I would like a cup of coffee. And it's being followed up with an action step. So you take action to make that thought into reality, to materialize it. And that action could be that you walk through the machine, or you actually drive downtown to go to that bar, or you pick up the phone and ask somebody to bring you a cup of coffee. But you go from an idea to action to end up with a cup of coffee. And there's a very simple law associated to it. And that's the fact that you cannot take action before you have thought the thought. Very simple process. On a personal level, when you take that to the context of an organization, where you see that most creations are not done on an individual level, but within a group of people, you see that this simple law is pretty much being ignored. A better word, people are not quite aware of it. What you see there is that most creations, most ideas, most improvements, most developments are being thought of by a limited group of people. They're usually within the top of the organization. They consist of specialists. They think of a specific improvement. Next, there is a larger group and usually a different group of people that actually have to act on that idea. And those people, nine out of 10 times have not been part of the creation of that idea. Yes, they have not thought the thought. Nonetheless, they are being requested, sometimes pushed, to actually take action on making that creation a reality. And on an individual level, we stated, or it's quite clear that you cannot take action. Once before, we have thought a thought, but nevertheless, we try to make that happen within an organization. And guess what? People resist. It's not because they don't want to change, or they lack ability to change. It's simply because they have not been part of the full process. It's a lack of inclusion in the creation phase, in the thinking phase, in the idea phase, that pretty much takes away the opportunity for these people to participate in the development of their organization. Yes, yes, they resist. And money is not going to buy it off. Nothing is actually going to take away that resistance. The only thing that will really take it away. At the root is including them in a thinking phase, because then they're in for the action as well. They can easily participate in the materialization, in the action steps that need to be done, and they want to make it a success. They become the sponsors of that change, rather than the people that they are the burden. They don't like it, and they have a lot of better ideas about it. So that's pretty much at the core of my book. And. And surely there are many positives that are associated with it.

Well, I think there's a new quote. I think there's a new quote for someone on a future Gimbal Academy podcast. You cannot take action before thinking the thought. Paul Brand. There you go. I really like that, you know, and that aligns actually perfectly. Many lean thinkers out there are shaking their head. There's a lean term we refer to as catch ball, and this is where it's typically done in what we call Hoshin principle or policy deployment, where people are kind of coming up with the goals and objectives, if you will, of the organization and trying to align them through. And catch ball is when you might have some ideas, and then I might be your employee. So you, you, you throw the ball to me and say, hey, Ron, what do you think of this idea? And then I say, hmm, I think it's a little crazy, but maybe if we did this, it wouldn't be so crazy. And we, we pass the ball back and forth. You know, this is catch ball. And it's a. It's basically what you said is it's, you know, maybe I didn't have the thought initially, but once you kind of gave it to me a little bit, now it's in my brain, right. And now I'm thinking about it. So I think there's tremendous parallels between lean thinking and what you're saying there.

Yes. And what's. Of course, there are so many great aspects to this in the fact that by throwing it and catching it and going back and forth, the idea itself gets enriched, becomes a better quality idea. It's being reviewed and being looked at from different perspectives, different thinking is being applied, applied to it, and perspectives that actually represent your marketplace as well. So it becomes a better product or a better solution, better way of working, and these people are eager to implement it. So they'll do anything to make it happen because they think it's my idea or these consist some of my thinking. So they want to make it happen, and they're on the lookout to see, okay, where is it being jeopardized in execution and so it's automatically being fine tuned to, towards the specifics of reality. And that's what you're looking for as an organization. You need the eyes and ears of the people when you are implementing because you can think the best idea when it's out in real life. I mean, most probably will need some adjustments and you want the eyes and ears in the field to optimize it.

Well, I'm even more excited to read the book now. I have some business travel coming up and that's what I really like to read is on airplanes. Change your mind, change your business. So I'm going to pick it up and encourage everybody else to pick it up as well. So. All right, very good, Paul. Well, let's go ahead and transition now into the reflection section. And the first question I have is, within the lean world, we spend a lot of time talking about respect for people. There's two primary pillars of lean continuous improvement, namely the tools, the things that we do to make things better. But then respecting people at the same time is also a pillar. So I'm curious, when you hear the words respect for people, what does it mean? What does it mean to you?

Obviously a lot. And it's quite easy to say, it's an important topic. I guess most will agree to that. But what it specifically means to me and what it makes me think of is that it's quite easy for God, that it's required to respect yourself before you're able to respect one another. Because it's always about respecting the other and getting respect from others. But how often is it the case that we are not respecting ourselves? And I've been taught quite well that you can only give from your abundance. So if I've got three coins and somebody asked me to give him four coins, I know I don't have it. I only have three. Let's say I need two for myself. I have only one in abundance that I can actually share. And the same goes for respect. If I don't respect myself, there's very little to give to others, if you know what I mean. And if I do give, which most people do, they tend to give respect. It comes with expectations. You expect something in return because you're giving, although you don't have it. So you expect something in return because it hurts to give it away, to say it like that. But you don't give because of, because of the joy of giving, of sharing. No, you're actually kind of filling the bank with credit and you Think, okay, I want something in return. Well, guess what? What you get in return is hard. What most cases is not what you expect and what you get happy from. Because these people are not in your head. They think that they are helping you, but they're not in your head. They don't know in what way they can provide you with respect. So to me, the key and the most important thing when you start talking about respect for people is that it needs to start with respect for yourself. You need to take care of yourself. And from that position, you're able, I guess, not able. You automatically want to give to others and are in a position to give respect. And you don't care so much whether you get it in return because you haven't given it to yourself. You're. You're fulfilled. To say it like that. And the good thing is when you don't have those expectations, you get it in abundance.

Yeah, you know, it's. We had a call. A course was a year ago or two years ago called the Culture of Kaizen. And one of the last modules in that course, you know, we spent the whole course talking about, you know, culture and how to develop people and so forth, brain science and whatnot. But then at the end have a module called Lead Yourself. And it's exactly what you just said. It's, you know, everything from your physical fitness to your mental clarity and how you feel day in and day out. If you don't have that, then you really can't do anything right. You can't lead, you can't help. A good friend of mine is a caretaker and spends a lot of time caring for a loved one. And you know, they mentioned the importance and the tragedy many times is you become so focused on caring for others, you forget to care for yourself. And then no one wins. Right. Because you can't even care for the other person when you fall apart.

Exactly. I always like the example that as soon as you enter an airplane and they have the safety instructions, the first thing they say is, okay, the oxygen mask pops out and please take care of yourself first before we start attending your children. And it's just a great example that. That you need to take care of yourself before you're in a position to take care of others. Exactly. And it's crucial and I mean, it's easy to say and it's not a thing to do, but it just takes attention and I guess it takes self love to put yourself constantly in a position to do it.

Do you have a productivity habit others might benefit from?

Yes, I do. But before that, can I take the liberty to bring respect related to the development of organizations? Because there's something I wanted to share about that. Oh yeah, because when I look at that I just said, okay, so what is it to respect other people in relation to development of organization? And to me it's also a lot related to co creation where for me true respecting people and respecting their qualities is to include them in their thinking phase. To include them in that thinking step of co creation. That's where you really take their creativity, their qualities other than some other people thinking of what needs to be done and just push it to other people and say do it. I mean, so to me it's respect for people within the development of organization should include people within the thinking step, within the design of your organization and the design of the development of organization. Your organization. That has to be it. So to me there's a strong, strong, strong link between respect and development of organizations by including people within, within the thinking phase. It's crucial for the continuous development of organizations. To me.

Yes, absolutely. Well, I know you said you didn't, you weren't a lean expert, but I think you're more expert in lean than you give yourself credit for.

It's quite funny, I shared in the introduction with you that it's. It's kind of ironic that I wrote a book but for me it's tough to read a book. But what I do find in my day to day operation is that although I haven't read the books apparently I do apply some of the principles. So I do enjoy that.

Yeah, well, Lean is all about people and you obviously are focused on people, so.

Yeah, definitely, definitely.

All right, so productivity habit, do you have one?

Yes, yes. Especially for people within leadership. But I guess it goes for anybody. Do less and let go of the control. I see. It's so easy to get just to act, to move, to run, to do and as a result lose focus, lose insight and oversight of the actual situation. And for leaders to, because they have great ideas, they are in a position to take action and make things happen. It's so easy just to jump into the problem and jump into the solution and go participate and then just lose sight of the situation and not being in a position to lead anymore. So I think a great productivity habit is to get comfortable with doing less, put your feet on the table and think of the situation and have inside and oversight, take distance.

Yeah. I know you're not a big reader, but a fantastic book on this topic is called essentialism by Greg McCowan, I think is his name. British guy. And it's all about saying no. You know, when people ask, you know, if it. What he says is, if it's not a hell yes, someone's asking you something and it's not hell yes, then then it's no. And it's very powerful to. To do less and minimalism, or whatever you want to call it. But, yeah, there's a lot to that.

So, yeah, that's. That's good. A friend of mine, he started talking to me about the power of words and the power of the word no and the power of the word change. So when he shared about the word no, he said, okay, maybe you can rephrase it to what you can do. And at first I found it very difficult because no is a very easy word because it kind of brings up boundaries directly, but it also puts a kind of separation with the people that you're talking to. So when I was able to rephrase it to okay, what I actually do want to do, I do want to be lazy today, or whatever it is, it doesn't bring that resistance with other people, and it makes the conversation a bit easier, but also change. Within the book, I devoted a chapter to what I've labeled as addition management. Because what I found is that as soon as I start to talk about change and the word change itself just brings up resistance, people start to resist. Because what they basically hear is that when I say, okay, something needs to be changed, or you need to change this with nice words, basically what's being told to these people is that what you've did to date is not correct. It's not what it's supposed to be. Rather than, okay, what is it that you can add to this situation? Is there something you can do on top of this? So we use, and we use the quality of what has been created to date, the experience that we gained through it, and we add. Add to it and grow as a result of it, rather than, we need to change this. And we tend to throw quite a bit of the good stuff away as well when we start changing it. And it puts people in a defensive position. That's what I found.

Yes. All right, so talk about some of the mistakes that you've made over the years and maybe some of the lessons learned.

For me, important. And that's really looking back, I really was in a position where I wanted to make it happen. I really was going for it. So I was that person that was not doing less, I was doing more. I was an External consultant and still am, of course. And I felt I had to make the difference. I had the best of intentions and I had a lot of energy and everything was in it. But what I basically ended up with is that I was growing through the experiences, through the change programs that I was participating in rather than the organization that we were doing this in. And what I found is that throughout the years when I would finish such a program or such a project, three to six months afterwards, quite a bit of the results that we were able to generate within the program, they were not there anymore because it was not instilled within the organization, not instilled within the people. It contained my energy, it contained my ideas. And regardless of the quality of it, it were not the ideas that were being thought of and being endorsed and being sponsored by the people that to do it. So what I really had to learn is to take a step back as well myself. And today I'm much more focusing on participating in the co creation for specific organization, bring my thoughts to the table, not to make that especially happen, but to be of an inspiration for the other people and ensure that the idea that comes to the table that's going to be executed is being endorsed and being sponsored by the people. So I'm much more focused on building the capability to improve, to develop within these people and making them aware of the possible boundaries within their personality, maybe within their organization for that development and see what we can do to take those away.

Very nice, Very nice. Sounds like you're teaching people to fish, right?

Exactly, exactly.

So do you have any, maybe a skill set or an area where you feel like you need to improve and.

It'S ongoing and it's probably never going to stop. There's one area in specific and it's, it's being me. That's basically what it is. The more I am me, the more I'm willing and able to trust on me, trust on my instincts and my gut feeling, I see the more value I actually bring to the customers that I work with. So more specifically, what I see looking back over the years is the. That my clearest view and my clear solutions pretty much happen at the start of a project where I'm not in a position to have all the proof to say, okay, I feel this and this, and this is an area where it can be improved. Nevertheless, I do have that sense. And it's based on experience, of course, but it's also based on things. I cannot really define what it is. But the more I bring it out, the less I do to actually prove it with evidence afterwards, the stronger it is. So the less explaining I do, the better it is. And I just need to trust those instincts and be more me. Because I would like to say that the solutions I am able to come up with, the consultancy or the advice I am able to come up with is of a better quality than it is, say, six months down the road, because then I'm part of the problem, part of the solution as well. So, yeah, be me. Trust my gut feelings and trust my instincts that come with it and share that.

Very good. All right, so last question I have for you, Paul, is let's say that you're going about your week and you're having a particularly bad day and things just aren't going well and you need to recharge and refocus. Do you have a routine or ritual that you follow to make that happen?

For me, it's all about taking distance, actually, from the actual situation, from the problematic area. And sometimes it really needs to be physical distance. But a good thing for me is to be present within my family, so share time with my wife and my children. And what I really enjoy is to go out and play golf. It's, yeah, being outside, being in the green fields, to say it like that, it really clears my mind and a lot of good thoughts come up and new opportunities actually within my head, I am able to take distance. And so, yeah, those are the two things I really do.

And since you're Dutch, you clearly are an expert footballer. Right. You know, so definitely.

Well, it happens to be that we're not joining the European Championships, although this is the first time that 24 countries are able to participate, but still we're not there. So, yeah, it's kind of a sensitive topic.

I'm glad I asked it at the end, you know, as I don't ruin the interview.

That's fine. All right. All right.

Well, very good. So, Paul, how can people connect with you?

There are a couple ways. You can find the book at Amazon. It's a change your mind, change your business. You can go to my website, it's ww www.changemindbusiness.com. and you can drop me an email at paulangemindbusiness.com what I found is that development is very specific. Good solutions are very much specific to the situation and the organization. So I very much enjoy getting in touch with leadership and see what the specifics are of your development topics and focus and discuss that. I really enjoy that. So feel free to get in touch.

Now, do you primarily do consulting in just Europe or do you come to the States at all? Or.

Or it's globally. It's globally, yeah. Wherever it pops up, actually.

Yeah. Nice. All right, well, very good. Well, if you ever get out to Texas or whatever, give me a shout and we'll go out and kick the soccer ball around. See, here at soccer, you know, so.

You know, I actually have a running bet with an American friend of mine that in my. In his lifetime, the States will not win the soccer world championship.

Well, women, Women or men? Come on, man, it's men.

I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah, limited to men. So. Sorry.

Well, my daughter's a big, big, big soccer player, so she. She'll. She'll try to win for the US and women's, but, yeah, the men are a bit of a mess, I think.

So it's still. Still a long time to go. Who knows? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Even a. What they say even a blind pig find some corn once in a while, you know?

Exactly. Exactly.

Very good.

All right, Paul.

Well, I enjoyed it and thanks for coming on. Change your mind, change your business, and we'll look forward to talking again sometime soon.

Okay, Thanks a lot, Ron. Cheers. Thank you. Bye. Bye.

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