GA 108 | How to Use Job Relations to Solve Problems with Oscar Roche

You're listening to episode 108 with Oscar Roach. Welcome to the Gemba Academy Podcast, the show that's focused on helping individuals and companies achieve breakthrough results using the same continuous improvement principles leveraged by companies such as Toyota Del Monte and the U.S. department of Defense. And now, here's your host, Ron Pereira. Hey there. This is Ron Pereira with Gemba Academy, and I'd like to welcome you to another edition of the Gemba Academy Podcast. As always, thank you so much for taking time out of your day and your week to listen to the show and for watching our Lean and Six Sigma training videos over at Gembacademy.com we definitely appreciate each and every one of you. Now, today, I'm excited to welcome Oscar Roach to the show. Now, Oscar is going to continue our theme of twi. We started that last week with Patrick Graup, who gave us a nice overview of what TWI is, its history, why it went away and why it's coming back and so forth. So if you haven't listened to that episode now, go ahead and listen to this one. But I would definitely encourage you to go back and listen to episode 107 with Patrick Grau now. Also, I want to remind everyone of the upcoming TWI Summit that's going to be held in San Antonio, Texas, May 12th and 13th. Now, I'm going to be one of the keynote speakers this year. I'm speaking on Thursday, and we would love to see each and every one of our listeners at the show to meet you in person. Now, if you are interested in going to this show, I would encourage you to go over to gembapodcast.com twi where you can gain access to a coupon code that will save you 10% on attending the conference. And full disclosure, GEMBA Academy doesn't make any money on this. We are just huge believers in the work that Lean Frontiers puts on, namely Jim and Duane and their entire team. They're fantastic people, fantastic Lean thinkers, and this summit is one if you're interested in twi. And there's also a strong HR presence in the conference. So if you're in into either HR or twi, you definitely want to go to this conference. Again, just go to gembapodcast.com twi where you'll find all the information you need. Now, today, Oscar and I are going to explore TWI in a slightly different way than we did last week with Patrick. Oscar does give a nice overview of what it is, but he's going to really kind of dive in more into the JR or job relations aspect of twi. Now, TWI obviously is a very people based activity, but jr, or job relations in particular is especially people based. And so Oscar shares his thoughts on why he believes it's one of the most important aspects of twi. So I don't want to go into too much detail on that and spoil what Oscar is going to share. So show notes for this particular episode can be found over@gembapodcast.com just look for episode 108. Again gembapodcast.com and just look for episode 108. Okay, enough for me. Let's get to the show. All right, Oscar, thank you so much for taking time to, to visit with us today. Where are you calling in from?

So I'm calling from Bermagui, which is a small town of about 3002, 3000 people, 400k south of Sydney on the coast.

Okay.

In a caravan park overlooking the sea.

And I hear some interesting things in the background.

Yeah, that's just the dirty old crow, what we call a crow, a scavenger bird. You can hear him in the trees.

Nice, nice. All right, well, thank you so much for taking time. I know you're kind of off on some personal time, so really appreciate you taking time to visit. So let's go ahead and get started, Oscar, with maybe tell us a little bit about your background and maybe how you first came to learn about just continuous improvement in general.

Okay. So I have a manufacturing background in the food industry. And in 2003, six of us went into a partnership to build a cherry packing facility. And my part of it was to run the operations. And that's a three to four months of the year operation. And during that time I was, as I said, the operations manager, if you like. And we were very price driven and very customer driven. We had a lead time of about 12 hours from order to delivery into the supermarkets. So it was really at that time where I grasped the importance of continuous improvement. And I guess I started to get a feel on how to drive it forward because at that time it was imperative that we got it right. 12 hour lead time quality was a major issue. So the things we did and how we improved had a big impact on the customer very quickly.

And so how did you get exposed to twi?

Well, that started after that because as I said, for three months of the year I was running that operation. And then after the other nine months I had my own business doing, starting to do. Prior to that it was all compliance work. And then we started to do continuous Improvement. And then in 2009 we were working for a company company, a large wine company actually. Americans would be familiar with the Yellow Tail brand. Oh yes, well, it was. We were working for that wine company, which is actually, the factory is only about 15 minutes from my house, from home. So the. We were having, we were doing a lot of visual workplace stuff with them, visual management. And we were having some success at that level with it on the floor. The manager, who was a very people based person at the time, a guy who I respected a lot, came to us and said, we do quite a good job at the factory level. They were paying the bills. Top management were OK with what we were doing. Middle management were getting left behind, particularly the frontline leader. And we spoke about that at length and about two to three weeks later I was getting the Target magazine from America, the Lean magazine. And there was an article in there, in that magazine by a guy by the name of Patrick Graup, who I'd never heard of, about TWI and which I'd never heard of. The silly thing was I'd read Toyota Talent about a year ago and the tune didn't click. It didn't click that at the. When I read about twi, that Toyota Talent was all about the JI part of that. Anyway, there was a, in what Patrick wrote, there was some phrases and comments that we used in that discussion that I had with the operations manager about three weeks earlier and I thought, oh, interesting, there might be something in this. So I wrote to the Institute and asked them how I find out more about twi. And as a consequence of that, we came to the summit in Las Vegas, whenever that was, 2009 or 10. And then the summit. After the summit, we spent some time with the Institute over on the east coast in upstate New York and then they mastered Cut. A long story short, Master Trainer came out to Australia two or three times and trained us and a group of others in each of the three. And really it's become. Not really. It has become the cornerstone of our business now.

Very nice. All right, well, I'm gonna, I wanna dig right much deeper into your TWI story and your journey there. But before we get to that, Oscar, we like to start all of our shows with our guest sharing a quotation or two that possibly inspires him. So do you have one?

Yeah. So I guess my journey with Lean has been an interesting one. And one of the things I have found is that I. Not that I question. Well, I'll go back a bit. We have one of our key clients now we have a man, there's a manager there who often says, the more I know, the more I realize I don't know. And I guess that was a little bit with me, with Lean, and to a certain extent, some parts of it didn't make sense. And then I saw a phrase about 18 months ago to two years ago, and it was this. It said, lean is developing people who can and will solve problems and make improvements daily. And when I read that, I thought, oh, now hang on, that makes sense to me now because that broadens it up completely, but it narrows it down. So it broadens it completely, as it needs to do, but it narrows it, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

And that was. And that was really the statement, first statement that I ever read about Lean, that bang. I thought, yep, now I get it. That makes sense to me because it never stops. One of the things about that statement is it never stops. And your development of people is it will never stop. And who drives it? The customer.

Yeah. And the minute you think you've got it figured out, that's when you're about to fall.

Right, exactly right.

All right, well, let's jump in a little bit into twi, and before we started recording, we had. We were just kind of beginning to talk a little bit about the relationship between JI and Junior and so forth. So let's expand on that a little bit. Tell me about your take on the relationship between, let's say, ji, JM and jr.

Okay. So when we came to the States that first summit, it was very much JI driven and to a certain extent, the work people. One of the things that often bemuses me is people talk about we're doing TWI or they're going to do twi. What they're really doing is JI and JI only. But that seems to get branded as TWI for some reason.

And I guess we'll just jump in. I'll say JI is job instruction for folks that maybe are new to twi. Right. So job instruction.

Right, yeah, sorry. Which is the ability to teach others how to follow standard work, ability to instruct. And that is not saying that's not important at all. But our belief before we came over was that the job relations part of it was the JR part of it, which is the ability to build relationships and trust and create a leadership environment. We saw that in Australia as being the major area of downfall, if you like. And the reason for that, I guess, is because inevitably the frontline leader is promoted because they're good operators, to some extent, they are able to instruct, to some extent, some of them, but you throw them into a leadership role where all of a sudden they get their results through others. And most of them have had no experience in that of that element whatsoever. But the game changes totally. As soon as you take someone from doing the work to leading someone else, then the game for that person has changed. 180, 360 degrees. No, 180 degrees.

Sorry. Yes, yes, yes.

Totally the opposite.

All right, well, let's dig into J.R. a little bit. Give us an overview of what it's all about.

So job relations, there's a model that you that's presented in session one of Job Relations. The key tenant, if you like, of that model is the concept of result, is the reality of results through people. So one of the things we always challenge people with and a group of managers or leaders in session one or at some point early in the discussion of jr, I always say to the group, okay, if you guys in the room, if I was to send you guys sitting in this room home right now, how long would the operation or the service keep going out there? And the usual answer is a day to three days to a week. It would keep going. And then I say to them, okay, you guys stay here. I'm going to walk out there on the floor right now. I'm going to send all those people out their home. How quickly will it stop? And they laugh and usually say, probably within five minutes. So my point then is, well, if you want any more evidence, if you don't believe what I'm saying, that you don't get results through people, then let me go and send them home and let's prove that. And they all get it, that they don't do the work, the results that the customer wants in full, on time, at cost, quality and all that stuff, they really don't. They don't have the most control over that. The operator does. And therefore the results that they're accountable for, the ones I just said, quality, productivity, safety, all that stuff actually don't come directly from them. They get it through others. So job relations becomes top of the tree and importance as far as we're concerned.

So how is the movement, I'm just curious, in Australia in general, just with continuous improvement, Lean, twi, whatever you want to call it. How's that going?

Interesting question. I would say the movement with Lean, Lean, Lean has developed a bad name, in short, and the reason for that, and I talked about this when I've been at other summits and I understand it's a Little bit the same in the States. The reason for that is it's been something that's developed into something that you do and you tick the box. And I guess where that's come from, my belief is that it's us as a group and we do a lot of work with Mike Rother and I've heard him say this, that it's us as a group that's created that because we went over or the experts went over in mid-80s to Japan and took a photo from 30,000ft of what they saw people doing and what then the consulting community, and I'm part of that, has encouraged people just to copy what was taken in that photo in the mid-80s. And I think what we're all realizing now is that there was a fair bit of groundwork done for 30 years before that photo could be taken. And so therefore, to answer your question of the name over here, people have tried to copy Lean. In other words, they do 5s and then they do Hijunka and then they do this and they do that and they don't really understand why they're doing it. And it may solve a problem in one small part of the operation, but in the rest of the operation there wasn't a need to solve that problem then and there. So the people involved see it as a waste of time.

Yes.

And it's. And the other thing that's created this, created this problem in this country, I believe, is there's a fair bit of government funding around for companies to do lean and it's usually done on a 50, 50 basis. And therefore they apply for government funding, they get it, they do lean and then they done, yeah, check the box. The funding runs out. So they stop and that isn't what it's about. So with all the right intent of the world, with these government programs, with all the right intent in the world, they, they're not achieving what, they're not achieving what they should be achieving. And they're just. Then people say, oh, did that three years ago and it didn't make any difference. It's not a three year journey as we all know.

So what's the countermeasure to it?

Good question, Very good question. I think our belief is that you need to go back to the grassroots and reflect back and start to build the basics. And that's the basics in the development of the people. So it's not about doing 5s and setting up a junk or all that sort of stuff. It's about going back to building the ability of the People to solve problems and if. And building that mentality. And then if you do that, the tools such as 5s and whatever else get pulled in at the appropriate time. Yes. So I guess almost, you're almost. One of the things that I've sort of thought about is that you've got to create Lean within Lean. In other words, don't do 5s until there's a pull for it.

Yes.

Whereas what we all tend to do is push it.

Yes. Yeah. Well, you go to a conference, go to a summit and you learn some new tool or whatever and you want to use it. Right, Exactly.

And so if you develop, if that line I used earlier, Lean is developing people who can and will solve problems and make improvements daily. If you develop that mentality, then 5s will come in in a part of the business where it's needed to solve a problem and so will other stuff. All those other tools are out, including twi. So JI is just a solution when we haven't. When people are not following standard, are not exhibiting standardized work. And the reason they're not is because the training, the training is not standardized. So JI is only a solution where you have that problem. In other words, if people are following, if people's work is standardized, why would you bother with ji?

Right.

Unless you have a future risk expansion and new staff coming in.

So what are you going to be talking about here at the summit coming up?

So two things, three actually. So on the Wednesday we're doing a one day workshop where we're demonstrating through a simulation the combination of twi, JI and JR Job relations, Job instruction with the improvement Carter and Coaching Carter. So we actually combine the two in a one day simulation. So we're doing that on the Wednesday. On the Thursday there is a job relations breakout where we're going to demonstrate and give examples of how companies, two companies in particular, have integrated job relations into their day to day work. Because again, like anything, it needs to be not an add on, it needs to be integrated and almost dissolved with. Dissolved into. So we're going to talk about that with job relations in one of the breakouts and give some examples of that. And the second pair of breakouts is one thing that people may not be aware of was that at the time in the mid-40s when TWI was developed, there was actually a fourth element and that was called TWI program development. So there was job methods and there was job instruction and there was job relations and then in the fourth there was a module called Program development. We believe that there's A lot of potential for that. And essentially what program development does is identify, is it's a tool for. It was developed in the 40s, as I understand it, as a tool for the training coordinator. That role has fundamentally become part of HR in our country anyway. And program development is a tool for HR to develop training plans and programs to make sure that it's adding value to the business. It's in line with what operations want. So we're doing two half hour sessions on program development. I've actually taken the original program development manual and developed it into, and I guess 2000 I's the words. And we're now starting to deliver that as a, as a training program over here really for hr. It's really. And the way we're marketing it, if you like, it's an opportunity for HR to get their teeth into operations and really support operations to improve those results through people.

Well, you have the. It sounds like you have the perfect crowd here at this summit, which is TWI and hr, right?

Well, we believe so. The program development slots right into, from our view, slots right into hr. If HR looking for something they can do where they can really help and add operations, then program development sits fair and square on that plate.

Beautiful. Well, I look forward to meeting you. I'll be there as well, so I'm looking forward to it. So let's go ahead, Oscar, and transition into the reflection section. And so, you know, as we lean thinkers spend a lot of time talking about kind of the two pillars, continuous improvement, which is the tools, the things that we can do and then respect for people. Respect for people can be harder to define at times. So I'm curious to hear from your perspective, what does respect for people mean?

What does it mean? Gee, you've thrown that question at me, Ron. What does it mean? I guess I don't think about a lot of. I don't think about that is the answer. What I do think about that is what does it mean I should do so to some extent. Does it matter? Does it matter? If you can answer, what does it mean? What is important? Is it.

Yeah. What does it mean to you then?

I guess, yeah, so what it means to me is what I do. So what I do on a 5 minute by 5 minute by 5 minute basis that ensures that the JR line is as short and straight as possible with whoever I'm dealing with. And if you look at the four foundations of job relations, I guess one of the things that dawned on me when we did the job relations training with Richard Abercrombie, way back in 2010, was that I looked at the foundations. I thought these are. And people say it to me, these are common sense. And they are common sense. But how well do we do them? And not only how well do we do them at work, but how well do we. We do them outside of work? As I said, five minute by five minute. So what respect for people means to me is doing those four foundations of job relations and actions that fit into those categories, for want of a better word, as often as you possibly can. And my experience is that the more often you can do them, the shorter and the better your results. And look, I often say to our customers that we have very good evidence that the shorter and sharper our JR line is with our customers, the more repeat work we get with them. That's a fact. So JR liner to us transfers into dollars because I know the ones we have the shortest and sharpest JR lines with, we get the most repeat work from.

Yes. What's the best advice you've ever received?

Oh, the best advice I've ever received is I did a sales course. I did a sales course in early 1990s with a guy called Sergio Carlos Maresca up in Brisbane. And he said a couple of things. One of the things he said, he took sales back to the basics of human interaction, if you like. And one of the things he often said was to ask yourself, is your ladder up against the right wall? In other words, whatever you're doing now, is it in line with what you think you should be doing, where you want to go? And the second and probably the best bit of advice I've got, and it came from him, was listen with intent to understand and not reply. So listen with intent to understand and not reply. And if you look in Junior in the second or third session, second session, I think we give out tips for getting people's opinions and feelings. And there's six tips, and I always bracket that off at the end. And so you could put all these together with listen with intent to understand and not reply. So that's probably the best bit of information I've ever got. Do I practice it? I practice it as often as I can, but of course I'm human and I will make mistakes.

Well, and I think when you listen like that, that also it's a very powerful sales approach, Right?

Yes, exactly. That was his point.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. All right. Do you have a personal productivity habit that others might benefit from?

Personal. Well, I think it's that. I think it's certainly from a work point of view, and it's tied in with that first one I said is I frequently ask myself, what is the best use of my time right now? So in every work agreement we have with a company, we have an objective which states, well, actually, what it says is what we understand you want of us is what it says in our work agreement. And in there will be a couple of lines of what we understand the company wants of us. So from a work point of view, as frequently as I can ask myself, am I doing. Is what I'm doing right now in line with that objective? So I guess the productivity habit is be very clear. And it ties in with JR foundation number one, be very clear on what's expected of you. And it frightens me how often when you challenge people, they're not clear on it. And then the second question is, is what I'm doing right now in with that objective?

Is there something over this past year, as you've been practicing lean and twi. That's. That surprised you?

Yeah, I think I just said it then. Is the number of times when we challenge people on, figure out what's expected of you in a work situation where they. When you start to explore that, then A, they're not clear on what's expected of them, and B, people who are, you would think, departments, people who should be on the same page, are on very different pages. So therefore, it's no wonder that things are going all over the place left, right, right, right, right, like this. That's the thing that surprises me, is how often I strike situations where people are not 100% clear what's expected of them.

So let's say that you're going through your week and you're having kind of a rotten day or a rotten week and things just aren't going well. Do you have a routine or ritual that you follow to get back on track?

Yeah, to some degree. Again, that guy Sergio said to me, you've got to give yourself 10 minutes every day where there's silence. So take yourself away from the crowd and give yourself silence. And so. And I suppose that's if I'm having a bad day, what. Even if I'm at a client, what I'll try and do is create a break and I'll go for a walk. Go for a walk around the factory, Go for a walk somewhere. Just get away from it. Sounds odd, doesn'. Get away from people where I can have my own little head space.

Yeah, no, that's important to sort through. So you've obviously been practicing this Stuff for some time, and you've learned a lot. But I'm curious, is there a knowledge or skill area that you feel you need to improve in order to become a better lean thinker?

I think it's the flexibility. Probably it's that, I guess one of the things I got. And this. Yeah, probably this explanation. When I first learned of the improvement card and the gray zone, I was one who planned everything for the next 12 years. No, for the next 12 months. I have a project plan laid out, and I would follow the project plan regardless. And I guess there was a line of Mike's where he says, no plan will cover everything, and that is okay. And really, that you find your way through the gray zone by PDCAing. I think I've still got a lot of room. I've got a lot of opportunity to develop my ability to do that. I think I'm a lot better at it than I was. But that movement through the gray zones vibe, short and sharp PDCAs, I think I can get better at that. I don't always react well when things come at me from left field.

Yes.

Yes.

All right. Well, very good. Well, I want to be respectful of your time. I know you got a kiddo over there wants to go fishing. Right.

I've got to pick up his mates in about 10 minutes while going fishing off the rocks.

What kind of fish are you gonna catch?

Well, yesterday. We went yesterday and caught flathead, which is a. I don't know if you get them in the states, but they're a bottom dwelling. Sand dwelling. See, they live on the bottom. Right? On the bottom.

Okay.

In relatively shallow water. So we caught a few of those. They're good eating. And I caught a. What's called a Port Jackson shark here, which is a cross between a stingray. It's got a stingray body with a shark typ.

Wow. I need a picture of that man. Can you email me a picture? We'll put it in the show notes.

James, my son, did take a picture yesterday, so I might well be able to do that.

There you go. There you go. All right, Very good. Well, Oscar, thanks so much for taking time. Why don't you tell people how they can connect with you? Maybe your website, social media, any other way?

Yep. So there's two ways. We have a website, which is www.vw as in the car, V for Victor, W for Wally, and then a U s t first4letters of australia.com. so probably the best way is on that website. And contact details are on there. My email address is Oscar O S C A R-W A U S T dot com. I do have an institute email address, but it's longer.

Okay. All right, well, we'll link everything up in the show notes so people can can find you that way. And hopefully everybody listening is going to come out to the TWI Summit. I think it's going to be a fantastic few days. I can't wait to meet all you TWI thinkers and just hang out. It's going to be fun.

Good. And thank you, Ron, for taking the time for this discussion.

All right, you take care.

Okay, bye.

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