GA 163 | Addressing the Human Side of Lean with Rick Timlick

You're listening to episode 163 with Rick Timlick.

Welcome to the Gemba Academy Podcast, the show that's focused on helping individuals and companies achieve breakthrough results using the same continuous improvement principles leveraged by companies such as Toyota Del Monte and the U.S. department of Defense. And now, here's your host, Ron Pereira.

Hey there. This is Ron Pereira with Gemba Academy, and I'd like to welcome you to another edition of the Gemba Academy podcast. As always, thank you so much for taking time out of your day and your week to listen to the show. And if we're watching our Lean and Six Sigma training videos over at Gembacademy.com we definitely appreciate each and every one of you. Now today, I'm excited to welcome Rick Timlik to the show. Now, Rick is a Lean consultant and he's going to come on, he's going to really kind of dive into how they go about kind of helping organizations with their Lean transformation. And he shares lots of really good tips, kind of talks about how he helps organizations get started looking at some of the normal things like KPIs. But then we got into a discussion on, on the people side of things and how to go about helping identify potential people problems. And then what do you do to kind of unpack that and then make some countermeasures and make things a little bit better? We also talk about kind of the difference between a bottoms up approach to lean and top down and perhaps why you maybe even need a little bit of both. So I really enjoyed chatting with Rick and I think you're going to enjoy the show. The show notes can be found over@gembapodcast.com. just look for episode 163. That's 1, 6 3. Again. Gembapodcast.com and look for episode 163. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. All right, Rick, thank you so much for coming onto the show. Where are you calling in from?

Happy to be here, Ron. I'm calling from Calgary, Alberta, Canada.

Beautiful. Beautiful. So you're watching the NHL finals or semifinals of where we're at. I'm not a big hockey follower, but I guess you guys up in Canada are.

Yeah, well, the Calgary Flames are a little bit of a rivalry to the Edmonton Orleans, but it's a Canadian team so we're rooting for them.

Is that how it works? I guess at the end I have a sister still up there in Winnipeg and yeah, it's like anything Canada. She's a Blue Jays fan. All of a sudden, you know, like, come on, whatever. Yep, good stuff. All right, well, hey, I really appreciate you coming onto the show and looking forward to our conversation. So, as you know, we like to kind of get things started even before a background with our. With our guests sharing a quotation or two of something that possibly inspires them. So do you have one?

I do, yeah. Like many of your guests, mine's a Taiichi Ono quote, and the quote is that Toyota style is not to create results by working hard. It's a system that says there's no limit to people's creativity. People don't go to Toyota to work, they go there to think. And I love that one.

Yeah, Yeah, I might. My favorite, I don't know, somebody I knew used to work at Toyota said quit calling it the Toyota production system. Tps. I call it the thinking production system.

Exactly.

Beautiful.

Got it.

Good stuff. All right, Rick, well, tell us a little bit about your background, maybe how you first came to learn about all this continuous improvement stuff and then what you're up to these days.

Sure. So my background, I started in the metals distribution industry and I had a particular client that built buses and I had the privilege of walking their shop floor to just to add value in the metals component. So I really walked around asking why all day long. And it really started me down, this journey of inquiry and saying, well, why is good, but I kind of need some data and facts to support that. And so I started to go for my blackfell and Six Sigma. And then further on in my career, I got blackfell and Lena's. Well, and I've enjoyed a career mostly in manufacturing and over the last few years in the energy and utilities business.

Very good, very good. And you're a consultant now, A lean consultant, right?

I guess, yeah, absolutely. So I've got about five associates that work underneath me. And again, we're primarily up here in Canada, but do have clients all across the globe, actually.

Good, good. All right. So my first question is really just kind of a really high level question. Just curious to get your take on, I don't know, the state of lean within the western world. Right. So Canada, US, Just Europe, even just within the western world. What's your opinion on where we're at?

Yeah, my colleagues that are out in the UK and Europe and some that I know in Asia, we do talk about this. And there's a conception that I think in North America that they're a little bit behind on lean compared to other parts of the world. And to me, I really Think that it's just a disconnect between management systems and performance improvement systems. What I mean by that is I think most organizations have some forms of KPIs, some form of governance, but they're not connecting that to how Lean works in companies. So you have a bunch of people running around with good intentions trying to solve problems, but those problems aren't directly connected to what the organization needs to achieve for strategy and results and those kinds of things.

What about Canada in particular? How are things going up there?

Canada in particular? You know, we are a resource based economy. So the oil and gas does hurt us quite a bit. The more it's depressed, you know, the longer the rebound for us. You know, having said that to a lot of my clients, I really talk about let's assume that this is the new norm or let's assume that these cycles are going to become more frequent and more intense. How can we maximize our resources and really get good use of those, those resources? And the pushback often is around production. Right? Production is king. And what can we do to increase production? Occasionally you could mask bad behaviors and costs. But then I go back to kind of a shareholder view and say, but we have a responsibility to maximize our shares to our shareholders. And so that's really just think smarter and more like a business.

So what do you think some of the issues are? Why isn't Lean as impactful as we all want it to be?

I hear often we've done that and it's got to be one of my biggest pet peeves is to go out there and say, yeah, we've tried Lean, but yet I look around and honestly between you and me and your listeners, you can tell that they haven't truly done Lean. They paid it probably some lip service and maybe some attention somewhere in the organization where they've solved a problem or two but couldn't sustain the gains with that. And again, I think that's because they didn't look at it as this is how we want to operate. They looked at it as a quick fix to do something.

So what's your approach? We go into an organization, maybe they're just getting started on their journey. What are some of the first things.

That you're going to do if they're just getting on a journey and they're really interested in having an impact to your organization? I want to first understand how their management systems, and I know I use that word a lot, but how their goals and their KPIs are cascaded throughout the organization. And you know, do they have the right level of supervisor looking at the right KPIs and what are they paying attention to? And then at the same time I'm doing that, I really want to know where's the frustration coming in the culture side of it. I don't separate the performance from the people. They really are an important aspect of having a high performing organization. So if the culture is really frustrated, maybe it's a political environment that they need to unweave some of that. And those kind of things set the ground to say, now lean has a chance of succeeding. But in the absence of doing some good due diligence up front, saying, what do we have around here for systems? What do we pay attention to? How do we track performance? How do we make those things kind of visible? I believe that a performance improvement system is going to fail or it's going to solve a few problems, but really not become the DNA of an organization.

So you mentioned KPIs, you know, those are easy to kind of understand and track, you know, if they are tracking them, I guess. But you mentioned the people, the people side of things. So how do you go about really trying to understand, you know, the people side of it, the people problems? I mean, because you go in one day and everything's, you know, who is this guy? You know, and they're all going to be on guard, like eventually. It takes a little time, right, to kind of break down barriers and really get people to open up and trust you. So how do you go about that and how long does it take typically?

Yeah, so there's a couple of approaches and it really depends on the environment. And I'll give you one example. We've developed a diagnostic assessment of the people environment. And it looks at nine performance factors that affect how people are performing and what gets in the way of their productivity. You know, for instance, how well is communication done around the organization or do we understand clarity of our goals we have to achieve? That's one route as an assessment. I do find more often than not organizations know kind of those big dynamics. And so it becomes around. Let's, let's actually get to the people and start talking to them and understand what their work is. I'll give you an example. I can't tell you how many times I've mapped out a process for a department and I've gone to the manager and I've said, this is what your people say happens today. And the manager would say, inevitably, well, that's not the process though. And I'd agree and nod and Smile and say, I understand that. But today, this is how your employees are working. And here's a list of items that are getting in their way from actually following the process that you want them to do. And so we spend a lot of time at the work activity level and at the task level really understanding the nature of that work and then going up into the organization at a management view. And I find that that way I. Not only do I gain the people's trust, but they're part of that journey with me versus something management is doing to them.

Mm.

Mm.

Now, I. I'm guess, you know, it's not your first rodeo, so you've surely come in contact with some, I don't know, some. Some folks who weren't down with this whole lean thing, you know.

Oh, yeah.

Arms cross or what? What's your approach to kind of, I don't know, work. Work those people into the fold, so to speak.

Yeah. The naysayers or those that, again, have experienced it, but to a negative view. You know, people have used lean. Sorry, I should say organizations have used lean as an excuse to lay off. So those people that have experienced that just have a bad taste in their mouth. And so when I have those. Those naysayers who have their arms folded, a lot of it comes to understanding the context of their work and their environment and getting them bought into an opportunity to make things better. Now, I can't say 100% of people come along with that journey, but when you follow that approach saying that, you know they're going to be part of this journey, more come along than not.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. A lot of times it's just people want to be heard.

Right.

And many times they haven't been heard, they've just been told.

Exactly. I think listening is really emotional oxygen for a lot of people.

Yeah. Hey, what's your opinion? You know, obviously there's a couple different approaches to implementing lean. You can kind of go bottoms up or top down. What's your opinion on those two approaches? And I'm sure you've seen both really, over the years.

Absolutely, I have seen both. And, you know, the top down is okay to a certain point, and the bottom up is okay to a certain point. And I really believe the approach has to be both. So if I separate management systems from improvement systems, I think a management system to say, here's our organization or our division's, here's our objectives, here's what we need to meet. Now, let me free up the talents of the people, which goes to my quote, to Say, guys in each of your teams in your areas, how can you best help us get there? What gaps can you close? It really goes to Hoshin planning. Right. I want to really deploy Hoshin in a department. And I find if I can do that, I can be successful. But if there's not good clarity at the organizational or divisional level of what those goals are, then the people below them are going to flounder. So you have to play both sides with a good degree of clarity and accountability.

I like that. I like that. So you've had a lot of success. Anyway, we're talking offline with going pretty fast with some of these implementations that you've been working on. So I'm curious if you could maybe share some practical tips, maybe some advice for our listeners on some things that they can do to enhance, maybe even speed up, if that's appropriate. Their Lean journey.

Yeah. So one of the things that we found early on, especially when companies are looking to create transformation, that's a broad consulting term, but transformation typically is meant, let's replay the org chart with a 10 or 15% decrease or more. And then when that's done, we're going to leave it up to the responsibility of all of the individual leaders to look at the work that's left and figure out how are you going to fit it now with your reduction of staff. And so people are often feeling that they're doing a lot more with less. Whereas our organization, when we come along to help companies with a transformation or a lean implementation, we really go back to first principles of lean and say, we want to understand how your company delivers value to its clients and what are the necessary activity levels in order to create that value. Now we use a bit of a software that we would feed into that and say, here's all the work activities that deliver value. And then we would fit what's the org chart and how does that connect to those processes? And then we'd fit in all the service levels and how does that connect to the org chart and the processes? So we create, you know, a simple way to say it is an integrated operating model that then says, here is. Here's our current state. Today our processes are linked to our employees. So we know what's the cost for people to do certain activities levels. And we can find waste and redundancies. The traditional method that we used to do is go around and process map to death and take all the sticky notes off the board and try to key them into a system. And sometimes that would take, you know, a week or two, or maybe even more before we can get back to people to verify we've captured the notes properly and all that kind of stuff. And so we do that live right up in the beginning, and that's how we're able to go real fast. And so we'll typically have our software open. We'll have a projector, you know, kind of displaying it on the board and we'll just talk to people showing the data up front and saying, is this right? Is this accurate? What would you change? And as we're changing the process, it's actually changing all the data behind the system that enables a company to make better decisions on their strategy. And for us, this becomes a good lean enabled tool because once we get the design right, we also created a list of all the issues that get in the way of that new design. And now we can start implementing great Kaizen events that are impactful to the strategy. We're able to train people on how to do this themselves so that they can grow and become more competent employees and future leaders. So we've just had great success with an integrated operating model.

Someone's listening and they don't have access to your software or anything like that, but what can they do? I mean, it sounds like. Is it. You mentioned mapping and whatnot. So is that something that you're. Let's say you didn't have your software and you had to go guerrilla man, old school, like, what would you do?

Yeah, absolutely. I'll tell you a little bit of a story. There was a healthcare agency that we worked with. We were talking with a coo and they had invested quite a bit of money into Lean. And this COO said as they were walking in the halls, one of their lean people came to them and they said, you know, we're able to save a couple thousand dollars out of operating out of surgical units. And the CEO thanked them and said, great job. But he said, honestly, Rick, as I was walking away, I was thinking a couple of thousand. We have, you know, big, big dollar challenges, yet I'm not able to connect them to that. And so my answer to your question is we have to stop having lean people be out there separate from the strategy, separate from the executive team, so they can understand where the organization is going. We have to be inclusive of these people that are out there and have the tools and the desire and the ability to solve problems and bring them together. And I think if we can do that, we can really do lean a lot faster and more impactful.

I totally agree with that. In fact, it's kind of my dream one day that there are no more lean people. Right.

I love it. Yes.

You know that everyone is practicing, like, everyone is thinking this way. Right. Because if it is just one or two people, you know, my past lives, you know, as part of these Kaizen blitz teams, and we just traveled around the globe fixing problems, you know, and it's like, soon as we left, now, you know, they're gone, you know, to the next. Yeah. You know, and that's just not sustainable. Right. For it to work, everyone has to be involved. Right. From the top to the bottom.

I always joke with hr, I wish I could change job descriptions to be one line. One job description, and the one line would. We're responsible to continuously improve the processes that we oversee.

Well, I don't know if you know who Paul Akers is. FastCap, but everybody that works at FastCap in Bellingham, Washington, their title, Process engineer.

Everyone Perfect. That's the answer.

They're all process engineers. Everyone. And doesn't matter if they kind of answer phones in the front office or they're assembling widgets on the line. They're all processing engineer. So, yeah.

Yeah, I think that's brilliant.

Beautiful. Beautiful. Hey, so, last question for this section, Rick. Let's say that you could jump into a kind of a time machine and go back and speak to yourself kind of day one of your journey. When you started with lean and first started helping people and you could give yourself some advice, what would it be?

You know, when I first started my lean journey, I had so much fervor for it. I had so much excitement, and I was going out there trying so hard to help, yet I kept coming across resistance. And when I finally started asking, what's the resistance? It really was, this is nice, but we've got work to do. And I almost wanted to pull them along with me, shouldering the burdens. And so if I could go back and talk to myself when I was younger making those mistakes, I'd really implore myself to say, the people have to first understand that we're making their lives easier, and let's bring them along with the journey. Let's not try to pull them along the journey. Let's. Let's. Let's. Let's help them.

Yeah. Help them understand why.

Exactly. Yes. The why.

Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. All right, Rick, well, let's go ahead and transition into the reflection section. And I know you've listened to the show, so you probably have these memorized as well as I do, but, you know, this first one is an oldie but goodie. You know, we spend a lot of time talking about those two pillars, continuous improvement and then respect for people. So I'm curious, what does respect for people mean to you?

In any organization I've been to, and I don't want to say it's a Canada thing, because in other places as well, there's so much talent. There's so many people that have great ideas, and they're the people that work on the processes all day long and they know it's broken. I think respect for people really is about engaging the people at all levels and get them bought into what the organization is trying to achieve. And that's the big hurdle. But when you can fix that solution or when you can find that magic and engage everybody, you'll find people are ready to bring their best. And I believe that's about respecting people, enabling them to bring their best.

Beautiful. What's the best advice you've ever received?

You know, it's funny, I received this advice from a car salesman. Of all the weird places.

No, that's a first.

On the podcast, it was brilliant. He said, rick, your one job is to solve problems, to help companies make money and to help them grow their business. And so whatever you do and however you frame it, just think of that. And it doesn't matter if you're an employee or you're on your own, Solve problems, grow business, make money. And that's always stuck with me. And I thought, you know, he's absolutely right.

You know, I actually recently took a course on from the guy, Chris Anderson. He's the founder of TED TED Talks and does a great. Did a great little course on giving really good kind of TED like keynote addresses and so forth. And one of the things that he talked about in there for giving a good talk is that you find your through line. So he says, imagine that you have this chord from the very beginning of your talk all the way to the end, and it's this chord that's going all the way through the talk. Everything that you do. So then everything that you say during your talk needs to be attached somehow to that through line. So what you just said made me remind, you know, think of that, is that, you know, that's your why or your purpose, right? And so make sure that everything that you're doing is attached to that purpose or that why. So I think that's a really cool way of. Of thinking about it.

Yeah, I like that through line analogy.

Yeah, good. Hey, so can you think of an Experiment or maybe a project that you've been involved in over the last year or so that didn't quite turn out like you planned. And if so, did you learn anything?

You know, I do often learn things, so I wouldn't narrow it to one. I'll tell you maybe a general theme is I get confident in my ability to help organizations while forgetting the fact that they're still trying to generate results while they're improving. And so here's what I've learned often, and I, and I still butt my head against it, is trying to fix a division while ignoring all the symptoms that create that dysfunction. And those symptoms can be organization wide or they can be right within that division.

Give me an example. They don't use names or anything like that?

Yeah, no, no. I think a good example is often even incentive programs. So for instance, if I'm incentivizing production, that means I need to get more fast, etceter, etcetera. But if I've got a sales force that can't sell to meet that production, I'm going to be at cross with those incentives and so one party is going to feel disserviced or like they've been wronged. Whereas if I looked across and say our focus is to grow revenue and let's just say I have production and sales working together, how could I harmonize an incentive plan so that part of their incentive is to work together and part of their incentive is to grow within what they're doing. So I'm not creating silos, I'm creating synergies.

Yes, yes, I like it. What are you most proud of as it relates to your Lean journey?

I think we've had great successes, you know, especially if I speak in the utilities and oil industry, we've had really good successes in helping these companies get a handle on Lean quickly so that it can spread like wildfire. And I take pleasure in that. You know, I often explain to my kids what I do and it can be complicated. So I usually just say I'm like a doctor and when my patient is healthy and they're running marathons, I feel pretty good about that.

Yeah. And vice versa, right?

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah. Yeah. Hey, read any good books lately? It doesn't even have to be continuous improvement related.

You know, I often read books. I think I know some of your guests have mentioned the Arbiter Institute books and I really quite enjoy those. I'll say one that not only do I read regularly because it's fun, but I recommend lots and I think it Was everything I learned about lean, I learned in first grade. And it's just a great. It brings you back again to first principles of lean. And I love the school analogy. And like I said, I do read it still probably once every year or two. And I recommend it a lot to people who are trying to get into lean.

You know, I've actually never read that one. The one that's similar to that, it sounds like is everything I learned about lean I learned in Joe's Garage. I don't know if you've heard of that one, but yeah, it's another interesting one. I think it's a very similar concept to that, but yeah, I can't remember who wrote that one. Joe's Garage.

But we'll have to trade books then.

Yeah, there you go. There you go. I gotta go to first grade and you gotta go to the garage.

That's right.

Good stuff. Hey, so last question. Is there a knowledge or skill area that you feel you need to improve on in order to become a better lean thinker?

You know, for me, I think I'd have to say I have a good degree of financial acumen, but it's something I'd always love to be stronger at, especially when it comes to understanding clients challenges to be a little more forensic in my financial diagnosis. That's my next hurdle and I think something that I'm going to look into tackling this fall.

Have you dabbled at all in any lean accounting or anything like that?

I have, yeah. And a lot of the work we do we go right back to activity based costing in order to help companies. But to look at their EBITDA and all those metrics and actually kind of quantify the impact to profitability a little stronger, I think would be great for not only our practice, but the lean profession in general.

Yeah. My good friend Gene Cunningham wrote the best book in my opinion, Real Numbers. Her and Ori Fume co authored that book. That's a great, great lean accounting book for anybody that wants to check that out. Real Numbers, it's called.

Yeah, yeah, I'll look into that.

Yeah, it's a good one. Good, good, good. All right, well, hey, Rick, I really enjoyed chatting with you. So how can folks connect with you?

You? It's simple for me on LinkedIn or you can see our website@redwoodperformanceinstitute.ca okay.

And Timlick is T I M L I C K. Is that right?

It is, yes.

All right, good stuff. And we'll link to everything in the show notes, so that'll be GembaPodcast.com folks can just look for episode 163163 and we'll link to Rick on LinkedIn. And are you on Twitter and all that good stuff or just more of a LinkedIn guy?

More of a LinkedIn. I do have a Twitter account. I haven't figured out what to use it for yet.

Yeah, me.

Check it out.

Yeah, me. I'm not big. I'll get on LinkedIn once in a while, but my business partner Kevin is fantastic at that stuff, so I kind of just let him run with it.

Good idea.

And Jessica, of course, listening to this right now, she does all of our show notes and everything. So she's great on social media too.

Oh, wonderful.

Good stuff. All right, well, hey Rick, do you ever get out to any conferences or anything like that?

You know, I've been heads down buried in work, but I've committed myself to this year next to attend more conferences and I'm looking forward to seeing you guys and your audiences out there.

Yeah, good stuff. All right, well, hey, it was great chatting with you and good luck to your Canadian hockey teams.

Excellent. We will take it. Thanks, Ron.

All right, take care.

Thanks for listening to the Gemba Academy podcast. Now it's time to take a free, free, no strings attached, fully functional test drive of Gemba Academy's School of Lean and Six Sigma. Over at GembaCademy.com gain immediate access to more than 500 Lean and Six Sigma training videos free of charge@gembacademy.com.